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Will the panickers stop panicking when their tanks are full? – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sandpit said:

    If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.

    At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.

    How’s about governments get out of the student finance market altogether, and let students argue with a bank manager as to the relative costs and benefits of the course they wish to take, with course and salary data to back it up?
    Yes. I suspect if I'd graduated with £50k of debt 15 years ago I'd want to make modest payments in the early years (I'd probably still have £40k by now) but add it to a (re)mortgage in my late 30s and pay it off at just 1-2% interest over a longer timeframe.

    As it was, I graduated with £12k of debt at basic CPI and I'd paid that off in full by the age of 29, which greatly helped with my living costs when I bought my first home (basically, I had £150 extra disposal a month).
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 33,452

    TOPPING said:

    Let's revise the numbers again.

    Our apparent shortage: 100,000.

    Of which,

    50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
    25,000 fewer tests Covid.
    25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.

    Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.

    And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
    One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.

    The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.
    Indeed. Wasn't there a time that the Tories opposed Ed Milibands proposed gas price cap as dangerous interference in the market?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
    Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.
    I was once and briefly OIC catering at Heron. Being sure to observe the time tested military adage of "Never do a shitty job well" I made sure that I made a complete brexit of it and was rapidly relieved.
    In civvy life, never make a good cup of tea.
  • Dr. Foxy, price caps were stupid then, and they're stupid now.

    The PM's an imbecile allergic to not being liked so he tells people any old bullshit he thinks they want to hear, and sprays money up the wall for a single morning's headlines. It's the principle reason he's unfit for the office.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 36,885
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.
    Cuckoo, back in your box looney tunes
  • glwglw Posts: 8,406
    edited September 2021
    Jonathan said:

    The governments messaging has been poor. "Don't panic! There is plenty of fuel in depots" is not the greatest message when the issue it is more difficult than usual to get fuel from depots to pumps.

    To be fair the initial story appears to have come from a BP briefing to the government and wasn't intended to have been publicised, it was disclosed at a meeting and then leaked to the press. The press liking a "panic" and a "cover-up" immediately went into overdrive. The public have then created a real shortage by going en masse to the petrol stations to fill their tanks.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 19,171

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,564
    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
    Or just tell the Green loonies to f*%k themselves, that heating people's homes in the winter takes priority over fashionable environmental fads, which is more and more what I think they should be doing.
  • TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
    Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.
    There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.

    Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.

    Or

    Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.

    It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.

    It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.
    Absolutely right. And it creates an opening (which nobody will take) to make a coherent argument for a renegotiated EU deal involving regulatory alignment and customs union membership.

    My sense from polling is that immigration is a much less salient issue than it was, even when the home office seem to be trying to exploit it, no bonfire of regulations has taken place - we are essentially in dynamic alignment anyway - and nobody now believes that a golden era of transformational trade deals with giants like the US or China is round the corner.
    Various industry leaders have made this point. Don't be bound by the EU regulations which we are 100% aligned to - make the positive choice to recognise that alignment. Don't be bound by free movement, make the positive choice to allow people to work here who we need to work here.

    But no. We have to refuse to accept that our standards are their standards are our standards. We have to impose fucktons of red tape and delays and costs just in case either we change in the future or the EU impose punishing regulation changes on the EU27 just to stick it to us. We have to refuse to allow people we need to work here despite having a points-based migration system allowing us to give work visas to people we need.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Good! So they should.

    I filled up on Thursday by coincidence at 131.9p at ASDA. I haven't driven past it since to see if they've changed prices but on Saturday my local Esso was 139.9p. There's normally a couple of pence difference between Supermarket and Esso etc but not 8p.

    If they've "profiteered" from this then I for one applaud them for that. Charge the fuckwits for their fuckwittery and let everyone who wants refill for cheaper in a few days time.
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
  • Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).
  • eekeek Posts: 20,255

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Good! So they should.

    I filled up on Thursday by coincidence at 131.9p at ASDA. I haven't driven past it since to see if they've changed prices but on Saturday my local Esso was 139.9p. There's normally a couple of pence difference between Supermarket and Esso etc but not 8p.

    If they've "profiteered" from this then I for one applaud them for that. Charge the fuckwits for their fuckwittery and let everyone who wants refill for cheaper in a few days time.
    Round here there is usually a 6p difference in price between Asda / Morrisons and Shell. Over the past year or so it's crept up from a 3p difference.
  • eek said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Good! So they should.

    I filled up on Thursday by coincidence at 131.9p at ASDA. I haven't driven past it since to see if they've changed prices but on Saturday my local Esso was 139.9p. There's normally a couple of pence difference between Supermarket and Esso etc but not 8p.

    If they've "profiteered" from this then I for one applaud them for that. Charge the fuckwits for their fuckwittery and let everyone who wants refill for cheaper in a few days time.
    Round here there is usually a 6p difference in price between Asda / Morrisons and Shell. Over the past year or so it's crept up from a 3p difference.
    Yeah that sounds about right. So an 8p difference indicates there's probably been a couple of pence added discretely to the price to charge the panic morons.

    Good!
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 23,035
    edited September 2021
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Let's revise the numbers again.

    Our apparent shortage: 100,000.

    Of which,

    50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
    25,000 fewer tests Covid.
    25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.

    Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.

    And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
    One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.

    The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.
    Indeed. Wasn't there a time that the Tories opposed Ed Milibands proposed gas price cap as dangerous interference in the market?
    Vote Blue Go Green was the slogan.

    It was from the era when the talk at Notting Hill dinner parties was how to attract the votes of those at Islington wine bars and Crouch End coffee shops.
  • Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
    "Are you saying that women's refuge's don't affect them?"
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,222
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The only surprise is that Mr Putin is doing it now and didn't start doing it a few years back which makes me wonder if the stories about production issues in Russia a couple of weeks back are true.
    The Ukrainians appear convinced that it’s a bluff, and that Putin’s planning on freezing them to death this winter, by jacking the price too high for them to afford. As soon as the German pipeline gets running, the Ukrainians are completely screwed.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 6,959
    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
    "Are you saying that women's refuge's don't affect them?"
    "I'm saying that with UC cuts about to drive hard working people into poverty, with skyrocketing bills, with an NHS crisis and a lack of drivers to keep food on the shelves and fuel in the tanks that it isn't the issue people are focused on."

    Hacks are fishing because they keep catching reactions to make stories out of. Stop feeding them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,205
    .
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,222

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Let's revise the numbers again.

    Our apparent shortage: 100,000.

    Of which,

    50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
    25,000 fewer tests Covid.
    25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.

    Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.

    And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
    One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.

    The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.
    Indeed. Wasn't there a time that the Tories opposed Ed Milibands proposed gas price cap as dangerous interference in the market?
    Vote Blue Go Green was the slogan.

    It was from the era when the talk at Notting Hill dinner parties was how to attract the votes of those at Islington wine bars and Crouch End coffee shops.
    Yet by 2014, Cameron was talking about dropping the “Green Crap” - because all it said to middle England was higher fuel and utility prices, and exporting what was left of a manufacturing industry overseas to places like China.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 2,566

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
    "Are you saying that women's refuge's don't affect them?"
    "I'm saying that with UC cuts about to drive hard working people into poverty, with skyrocketing bills, with an NHS crisis and a lack of drivers to keep food on the shelves and fuel in the tanks that it isn't the issue people are focused on."

    Hacks are fishing because they keep catching reactions to make stories out of. Stop feeding them.
    They're fishing because there's fish to catch.

    The mess the left have gotten themselves into with trans/women's rights (like the mess the right got itself into with Section 28) is precisely why social issues should not be party-political issues and should be a conscience matter. If matters of conscience are resolved on a free whip its much easier for the party to stay above the fray.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 2,464
    edited September 2021

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    .... although PB tories are not running the government.

    It does reveal however a poor understanding of everyday life for people who rely on cars. Its really as simple as - if you need petrol to get to work/school etc, then you join the que with everyone else.
  • glwglw Posts: 8,406
    edited September 2021
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The only surprise is that Mr Putin is doing it now and didn't start doing it a few years back which makes me wonder if the stories about production issues in Russia a couple of weeks back are true.
    The Ukrainians appear convinced that it’s a bluff, and that Putin’s planning on freezing them to death this winter, by jacking the price too high for them to afford. As soon as the German pipeline gets running, the Ukrainians are completely screwed.
    Given the trouble we've seen with oil supplies being used as a tool by hostile regimes in the past it amazes me how blasé Europe is about letting Putin gain greater control of the gas market.
  • Is Keir Starmer deliberately making the case for a new leader?

    “ As negotiations begin to form a new government in Germany, it is clear this was a good night for the @spdde and my friend @olafscholz in the Bundestag elections.

    His inspiring campaign has shown that positive leadership matters.”


    https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1442399274935848962
  • Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Wrong on the second point, 'selfish twats' appears to be the preferred term for the everyone to blame but Boris tendency.
  • kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
    "Are you saying that women's refuge's don't affect them?"
    "I'm saying that with UC cuts about to drive hard working people into poverty, with skyrocketing bills, with an NHS crisis and a lack of drivers to keep food on the shelves and fuel in the tanks that it isn't the issue people are focused on."

    Hacks are fishing because they keep catching reactions to make stories out of. Stop feeding them.
    I agree with you on this, RP. But it still wouldn't stop Labour's enemies in the culture war: "Starmer refuses to answer questions on one of the defining issues of our age" or some such guff. Tricky one, but still best avoided.
  • Is Keir Starmer deliberately making the case for a new leader?

    “ As negotiations begin to form a new government in Germany, it is clear this was a good night for the @spdde and my friend @olafscholz in the Bundestag elections.

    His inspiring campaign has shown that positive leadership matters.”


    https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1442399274935848962

    Are they indeed friends? Have their paths crossed before?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,394
    Nigelb said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
    No, I'm arguing that the media has significant power but it should exercise it carefully.

    Unfortunately, journalists in this country see themselves as part of the entertainment industry. If they can create a news story, they'll do it.
  • GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
    Morning Big G.

    Labour conference not really going to plan, what with the scumgate and "cervixgate" is it lol?
    Even if I was trying to be fair it has been a car crash and why Starmer capped it off by saying Rosie Duffield is wrong astonished me
    "Can I ask if Rosie Duffield was wrong?"
    You can ask, but you're wasting everyone's time. With all the issues in the country do you want to ignore people's actual lives and focus on that?
    "I notice you haven't answered"
    And almost everyone watching will agree with me. Trans rights is an issue to debate but its hardly the biggest issue to deal with. Move on.
    "So why won't you answer"
    Because the British people want me to be talking about the issues that affect them and you to be asking me about them.

    Etc. Done.
    "Are you saying that women's refuge's don't affect them?"
    "I'm saying that with UC cuts about to drive hard working people into poverty, with skyrocketing bills, with an NHS crisis and a lack of drivers to keep food on the shelves and fuel in the tanks that it isn't the issue people are focused on."

    Hacks are fishing because they keep catching reactions to make stories out of. Stop feeding them.
    I agree with you on this, RP. But it still wouldn't stop Labour's enemies in the culture war: "Starmer refuses to answer questions on one of the defining issues of our age" or some such guff. Tricky one, but still best avoided.
    If he said that Labour wouldn't be taking a position because its a matter of conscience, as is typical for social issues in this country, then that would have been reasonable.

    However the issue is Labour have taken a position. They're on the side of the trans-activists and therefore against the feminist activists as a result. That's their choice, they made a choice in the debate and therefore have taken a side.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 1,708
    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
    Or just tell the Green loonies to f*%k themselves, that heating people's homes in the winter takes priority over fashionable environmental fads, which is more and more what I think they should be doing.
    This is about energy security.

    There has been both a medium term failure and a number of long term failures of government.

    The medium term failure was insufficient focus on gas storage (and nuclear) as a transitional measure away from coal and towards renewables. For short-termist reasons.

    The long term failure is that renewable transition which could easily have been a decade or more ahead of where we are now, had we taken *less* heed of the fact that a lot of the UK Green policy has been chaotic nonsense for decades, and thought more about the underlying issue.

    Sadly we have 30 years of "if it's Green it must be nonsense" to overcome - which is a legitimate response to large swathes of the (UK) Green movement over the years, but not to the underlying environmental concerns they purport to express.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 8,986
    edited September 2021

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.

    The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.

    There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.

    So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?

    And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
    For all of the flap, the change in tuition fees was a positive step in allowing poorer students access. Instead of fees up front it was hypothecated fees when earning.

    The issue was funding for universities. With the government contribution to uni teaching cut by 78%, we've seen institutions both get it in the neck for charging the "maximum" £9k a year and offering poor tuition due to a lack of money.

    Anyway, think what these £9k fees are. Instead of the government handing money to the universities, it hands it to student loans who pay it to universities. We know that in this era of bankism debt is an asset. How much "asset" was added to bank balance sheets in this way? a very quiet way to keep injecting cash into a broken banking system.
    And the funding comes down to the idea that 50% of kids need to go to university. IMV that was always an insane target, and has massively skewed expectations, education and the jobs market.

    IMV everything else leads on from that.
    Except that sort of figure for Tertiary education is the norm in nearly all competitor economies. It reaches 69% in South Korea. Italy and Germany are the exceptions in the developed world.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

    Maybe Britons are thicker than other nations, but that doesn't bode well for the future.

    The problem perhaps is more the poor quality of many courses, particularly in terms of contact time with students, so little value added.

    I think that the cost of Tertiary education is quite inflated in Britain by two factors: Universities use undergraduate fees to subsidise other things, and second that British students want to live a good lifestyle away from home. Few go to nearby Universities. The student loan system barely covers rent, and not even close to that in London and a number of other cities.
    Except tertiary education != universities. From your link;

    " The World Bank, for example, defines tertiary education as including universities as well as institutions that teach specific capacities of higher learning such as colleges, technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers."

    That's where we're going wrong. Universities are just one strand of tertiary education, and yet they've grown to dominate. We'd be much better sorted with other types as well, in particular on-job training.
    That is pretty much what I said. The problem is not the numbers going, but rather the poor quality of much British Tertiary education, and the emphasis on a partying life away from home.
    I'm unsure it is. I talked about he goal of 50% to university, and you talked about tertiary education. These are not, and should not be, the same.

    We need plumbers. I see no need for plumbers to go to university; they'd be much better served with an apprenticeship and then a C&G. We have too much university, and not enough apprenticeships and other further education.
    One of my brother-in-laws did a three-year technical course in welding at an Irish Institute of Technology. He has plenty of work and a big new house.

    My impression is that apprenticeships and C&G in Britain simply aren't working as well as the Irish system. Maybe it's a prestige/class thing? In the same family they have a physics PhD, a music Masters and an MBA - there's no sense that the welder has fallen short as there might be with a British middle class family.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327
    edited September 2021

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
  • tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
    No, I'm arguing that the media has significant power but it should exercise it carefully.

    Unfortunately, journalists in this country see themselves as part of the entertainment industry. If they can create a news story, they'll do it.
    Unfortunately, politicians in this country see journalists as part of the process of governing. No wonder if the hacks get carried away.
  • TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,502
    The cavalier decision making by various governments in the field of energy supply is just astonishing. Here are some examples: our own abandonment of gas storage in 2017, our prospective decommissioning of gas for domestic heating by 2030, the German abandonment of nuclear energy and reliance on gas from Russia while continuing to burn lignite (brown coal) until the mid-2030s.
  • kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    It seems plausible to me that a centrist Green Party in the UK on 15% of the vote would make coalitions much more likely here as well, despite FPTP.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,222
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
    No, I'm arguing that the media has significant power but it should exercise it carefully.

    Unfortunately, journalists in this country see themselves as part of the entertainment industry. If they can create a news story, they'll do it.
    As we’ve seen during the pandemic. It’s sad to see the race to the bottom caused by the rise of the internet and social media, where clicks and retweets and being first, are more important than good investigation, checking multiple sources and accuracy of the reporting.

    There’s no way the news media of three decades ago would have stoked up panic buying of fuel in such a way, nor have invited some of the discussions around the pandemic, legitimising anti-scientists and conspiracy theorists.

    At this point, they’re definitely shouting fire in the theatre - which is worrying as hell when you look across the Pond, at the irreconcilable social and political divisions we see in the States.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,949
    edited September 2021

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    There would still be haggling between the parties under FPTP, just the Union would have won most seats not the SPD.

    The Union would still need the Greens or SPD or AfD for a majority.

    Even under FPTP as 2010 and 2017 showed here it does not always produce majorities and smaller parties are sometimes needed to support the largest one. See also Canada after the latest election result which means the Liberals need NDP support to get legislation through despite FPTP.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 22,662
    I have to collect a sick cat from the cat hospital on Friday. It is in the middle of the countryside, a long way away. I have enough petrol to get there. But not enough to get home. I do hope the petrol issue resolves itself by then.

    Incidentally I wish one of my children had trained to be a vet. The cost of animal hospital treatment is eye-watering. I may as well have Frankel sleeping on my sofa.
  • Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,449

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
  • TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    On Thursday petrol stations were normal. the headlines in the papers Friday morning saying the UK was running out of petrol caused the mad panic.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 19,162

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    Depends where you live. In rural Devon, 999 ambulances are taking 2 -3 hours to get to you, so, entirely undramatically, having a usable car can be life vs death. So you tend to maximal caution.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,394
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    Ummm, Philip filled up on Thursday.

    I, on the other hand, filled up on Friday morning. I don't regret that decision.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327
    Cyclefree said:

    I have to collect a sick cat from the cat hospital on Friday. It is in the middle of the countryside, a long way away. I have enough petrol to get there. But not enough to get home. I do hope the petrol issue resolves itself by then.

    Incidentally I wish one of my children had trained to be a vet. The cost of animal hospital treatment is eye-watering. I may as well have Frankel sleeping on my sofa.

    I think these past few years, decades perhaps, pets have been treated for an increasing number of ailments that would either not have been diagnosed or which would have resulted in an injection previously.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,375
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    Here we go again with the PB teenage blame wars.

    I'm sure I remember some accusations of HOARDER being thrown around last year against people who bought a whole packet of toilet rolls.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 19,000
    Angela Rayner - Are Tory Ministers scum discuss

    Keir Starmer Are Labour Members Trot scum discuss.

    Labour voters - I think I will move on from squabbling divided Labour especially under this usekess leader thanks.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,147
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    Thursday was before all of the idiotic panic buying started.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327

    Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
    Did you know there is an arrow or indicator on the fuel gauge on the dashboard that tells you which side the tank is on.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Good! So they should.

    I filled up on Thursday by coincidence at 131.9p at ASDA. I haven't driven past it since to see if they've changed prices but on Saturday my local Esso was 139.9p. There's normally a couple of pence difference between Supermarket and Esso etc but not 8p.

    If they've "profiteered" from this then I for one applaud them for that. Charge the fuckwits for their fuckwittery and let everyone who wants refill for cheaper in a few days time.
    Not convinced this will be extra profit. Could be higher charges for delivery, especially earlier delivery.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,449

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    What kind of MPG do you get in a TARDIS?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,839

    Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
    My wife pointed out to me (after I asked her for the nth time which side the filler was on the family car) that the fuel gauge has a little arrow telling you which side. That's a Ford, was also the case in another Ford we used to have, but I'm not sure whether all cars have that.

    In most fuel stations the hoses are long enough to fill up on either side, particularly if you pull forwards a bit (never as comfortable on the far side, but normally very doable). You do have to accept everyone else looks at you as the idiot who forgot which side the filler cap was, but you don't have to queue so long.
  • Farooq said:

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
    The difference is that in the UK the Tories and Labour are coalitions that are formed and give a platform BEFORE the election not after it.

    So voters here can make an educated decision as to which compromises have been made before they vote.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    Because you are a keen political observer and knew that this was coming and hence panic bought before everyone else panic bought.

    In fact, you are the early panic buyer whose fault this all is.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,147
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    Because you are a keen political observer and knew that this was coming and hence panic bought before everyone else panic bought.

    In fact, you are the early panic buyer whose fault this all is.
    If anyone had the ability to predict black swan events they wouldn't be posting on PB!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 14,375
    edited September 2021
    mwadams said:

    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
    Or just tell the Green loonies to f*%k themselves, that heating people's homes in the winter takes priority over fashionable environmental fads, which is more and more what I think they should be doing.
    This is about energy security.

    There has been both a medium term failure and a number of long term failures of government.

    The medium term failure was insufficient focus on gas storage (and nuclear) as a transitional measure away from coal and towards renewables. For short-termist reasons.

    The long term failure is that renewable transition which could easily have been a decade or more ahead of where we are now, had we taken *less* heed of the fact that a lot of the UK Green policy has been chaotic nonsense for decades, and thought more about the underlying issue.

    Sadly we have 30 years of "if it's Green it must be nonsense" to overcome - which is a legitimate response to large swathes of the (UK) Green movement over the years, but not to the underlying environmental concerns they purport to express.
    As things stand we are getting on for a decade ahead of many of our peer countries, so I think we can cut ourselves some slack on that one.

    And not really sure about the "if it's Green it's nonsense", either. I think that for real policy initiatives, there has been a lot of significant stuff for a long time.

    Agree with the remainder, however.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 7,449

    Farooq said:

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
    The difference is that in the UK the Tories and Labour are coalitions that are formed and give a platform BEFORE the election not after it.

    So voters here can make an educated decision as to which compromises have been made before they vote.
    Except no, you vote for Cameron and get May, you vote for May and get Johnson, you vote for Miliband and get Corbyn, you vote for Corbyn and get Starmer.
    Judging by how furious everyone seems to be about their parties betraying them, the benefit you just mentioned does not manifest.

    FPTP is electoral communism. It works in theory.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 43,671
    geoffw said:

    The cavalier decision making by various governments in the field of energy supply is just astonishing. Here are some examples: our own abandonment of gas storage in 2017, our prospective decommissioning of gas for domestic heating by 2030, the German abandonment of nuclear energy and reliance on gas from Russia while continuing to burn lignite (brown coal) until the mid-2030s.

    I think the proposition that we are going to completely replace tens of millions of gas boilers in houses, shops and offices in 10 years and replace them with heat pumps or something else is nothing short of fantastical. It is simply not going to happen. It may be that by the mid 2030s we might be able to stop burning gas just to produce electricity in power stations but changing our domestic source of energy is going to be impossibly difficult.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,143
    edited September 2021
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    Because you are a keen political observer and knew that this was coming and hence panic bought before everyone else panic bought.

    In fact, you are the early panic buyer whose fault this all is.
    If anyone had the ability to predict black swan events they wouldn't be posting on PB!
    I filled up my previous car, and asked my other half if she had fuel Thursday evening. She said she was fine, I should have taken hers out and filled it up though tbh - she has just under half a tank and not a huge amount of journeys to do though so should be OK.
    Crowd psychology dictates that fuel purchasing either through panic or prudence is best done early if you think there might be a self fulfilling prophecy situation at the pumps.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Good! So they should.

    I filled up on Thursday by coincidence at 131.9p at ASDA. I haven't driven past it since to see if they've changed prices but on Saturday my local Esso was 139.9p. There's normally a couple of pence difference between Supermarket and Esso etc but not 8p.

    If they've "profiteered" from this then I for one applaud them for that. Charge the fuckwits for their fuckwittery and let ieveryone who wants refill for cheaper in a few days time.
    I doubt its profiteering. It was the same price gap before the fuel drama (where i live)
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 4,412

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    On Thursday petrol stations were normal. the headlines in the papers Friday morning saying the UK was running out of petrol caused the mad panic.
    Not round here they weren’t. There has been shortages since Wed last week at least. A real shortage has been exacerbated into a crisis but it’s silly to deny there were no problems before.

    Keep an eye on Essar at Stanlowe by the way. Were I PM I’d be nationalising that refinery with no compensation for existing equity holders. The wider crisis is the perfect cover for it. As a country we really do need to learn the lesson that strategic resilience requires state ownership of some key assets, rather than letting the greasiest bunch of ***** (starred out for Robert’s sleep soundness) run them.

    No doubt instead this govt will just put their hands in tax payers pockets to bail them out, in the mistaken belief that it’s the Thatcherite thing to do.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    Because you are a keen political observer and knew that this was coming and hence panic bought before everyone else panic bought.

    In fact, you are the early panic buyer whose fault this all is.
    If anyone had the ability to predict black swan events they wouldn't be posting on PB!
    Not quite a black swan event. Why Philip had been lauding the fact that we don't have any HGV drivers for ages. He applied the mosaic theory, correctly, and got his panic buying in early.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 9,597

    Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
    The manufacturers will just do whatever is cheapest based on the architecture of the particular vehicle.

    The RAF Minis used to have tanks on both sides for some reason that is now lost to history. I was present but not involved when an RAF Police Mini was deposited on a hangar roof using a Bell 412 Torque Monster at Shawbury.
  • eekeek Posts: 20,255
    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    The cavalier decision making by various governments in the field of energy supply is just astonishing. Here are some examples: our own abandonment of gas storage in 2017, our prospective decommissioning of gas for domestic heating by 2030, the German abandonment of nuclear energy and reliance on gas from Russia while continuing to burn lignite (brown coal) until the mid-2030s.

    I think the proposition that we are going to completely replace tens of millions of gas boilers in houses, shops and offices in 10 years and replace them with heat pumps or something else is nothing short of fantastical. It is simply not going to happen. It may be that by the mid 2030s we might be able to stop burning gas just to produce electricity in power stations but changing our domestic source of energy is going to be impossibly difficult.
    It's possible to do it by 2025 or so for new builds as you just up the insulation required to ensure it's not required but a lot of old homes are going to be hopelessly difficult to retrofit with enough insulation to make removing a gas boiler practical.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    Depends where you live. In rural Devon, 999 ambulances are taking 2 -3 hours to get to you, so, entirely undramatically, having a usable car can be life vs death. So you tend to maximal caution.
    I get that. But unless you need fuel, your car is usable without being refuelled today. And if you do need fuel, you're not putting extra strain on the system.

    People topping up a half-full tank that they won't be using the extra fuel for another week or two are the morons who are creating the strain and they're not life or death.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,205
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
    No, I'm arguing that the media has significant power but it should exercise it carefully.

    Unfortunately, journalists in this country see themselves as part of the entertainment industry. If they can create a news story, they'll do it.
    You're basically arguing that the media ought to report as you see fit.
    It is a ridiculous position to hold.
  • Cyclefree said:

    I have to collect a sick cat from the cat hospital on Friday. It is in the middle of the countryside, a long way away. I have enough petrol to get there. But not enough to get home. I do hope the petrol issue resolves itself by then.

    Incidentally I wish one of my children had trained to be a vet. The cost of animal hospital treatment is eye-watering. I may as well have Frankel sleeping on my sofa.

    I'm not sure if this trick only works in Japan but I find if you get goats instead of cats they're classified as livestock, which means the vet comes to you instead of you having to go to the vet, and he charges a fraction of what the pet vet (run by his children) charges. Food is cheaper too, we get huge bails of hay from the agricultural coop place that cost like 1000 yen per goat-month.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    Depends where you live. In rural Devon, 999 ambulances are taking 2 -3 hours to get to you, so, entirely undramatically, having a usable car can be life vs death. So you tend to maximal caution.
    I get that. But unless you need fuel, your car is usable without being refuelled today. And if you do need fuel, you're not putting extra strain on the system.

    People topping up a half-full tank that they won't be using the extra fuel for another week or two are the morons who are creating the strain and they're not life or death.
    You have no idea how many are such people topping up half a tank. And it is rational as people don't know how long this situation will last.

    @DavidL is operating on the assumption of it all being over by Weds. Which it may well be. But that is still a judgement call.

    If it hadn't been for the very early panic buyers we might not be in this position, eh?
  • eekeek Posts: 20,255
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    On Thursday petrol stations were normal. the headlines in the papers Friday morning saying the UK was running out of petrol caused the mad panic.
    Not round here they weren’t. There has been shortages since Wed last week at least. A real shortage has been exacerbated into a crisis but it’s silly to deny there were no problems before.

    Keep an eye on Essar at Stanlowe by the way. Were I PM I’d be nationalising that refinery with no compensation for existing equity holders. The wider crisis is the perfect cover for it. As a country we really do need to learn the lesson that strategic resilience requires state ownership of some key assets, rather than letting the greasiest bunch of ***** (starred out for Robert’s sleep soundness) run them.

    No doubt instead this govt will just put their hands in tax payers pockets to bail them out, in the mistaken belief that it’s the Thatcherite thing to do.
    Essar owes HMRC £220m in VAT that should have been paid back in May 2020.

    Letting it go bankrupt with the Government as a backup purchaser makes perfect sense and is about the only sane option.
  • moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    On Thursday petrol stations were normal. the headlines in the papers Friday morning saying the UK was running out of petrol caused the mad panic.
    Not round here they weren’t. There has been shortages since Wed last week at least. A real shortage has been exacerbated into a crisis but it’s silly to deny there were no problems before.

    Keep an eye on Essar at Stanlowe by the way. Were I PM I’d be nationalising that refinery with no compensation for existing equity holders. The wider crisis is the perfect cover for it. As a country we really do need to learn the lesson that strategic resilience requires state ownership of some key assets, rather than letting the greasiest bunch of ***** (starred out for Robert’s sleep soundness) run them.

    No doubt instead this govt will just put their hands in tax payers pockets to bail them out, in the mistaken belief that it’s the Thatcherite thing to do.
    Surely the Thatcherite thing to do is to nationalise it without compensation (if they go bust) then when its re-privatise it again?

    Buy it for nothing and sell it to someone sound for a profit.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,147
    moonshine said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    On Thursday petrol stations were normal. the headlines in the papers Friday morning saying the UK was running out of petrol caused the mad panic.
    Not round here they weren’t. There has been shortages since Wed last week at least. A real shortage has been exacerbated into a crisis but it’s silly to deny there were no problems before.

    Keep an eye on Essar at Stanlowe by the way. Were I PM I’d be nationalising that refinery with no compensation for existing equity holders. The wider crisis is the perfect cover for it. As a country we really do need to learn the lesson that strategic resilience requires state ownership of some key assets, rather than letting the greasiest bunch of ***** (starred out for Robert’s sleep soundness) run them.

    No doubt instead this govt will just put their hands in tax payers pockets to bail them out, in the mistaken belief that it’s the Thatcherite thing to do.
    The gas storage situation can't be repeated with refinery capacity. It's the one thing that we don't need to import. The nations that have for state subsidised gas storage are the ones faring best right now as they don't need to rely on spot prices for all of their daily gas needs. The Tories decided it wasn't worth paying for and gave the money to old people to buy votes and now the nation is fucked.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 23,394
    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
    So you're now arguing for their prosecution ?
    Desperate stuff.
    No, I'm arguing that the media has significant power but it should exercise it carefully.

    Unfortunately, journalists in this country see themselves as part of the entertainment industry. If they can create a news story, they'll do it.
    You're basically arguing that the media ought to report as you see fit.
    It is a ridiculous position to hold.
    The media can do as it likes - and I think press freedom is important - but they are 100% to blame for the current nonsense regarding petrol/diesel.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 40,222

    Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
    It’s one of few things that isn’t regulated, so manufacturers choose whichever fuel door placement is most convenient for packaging the car, even with left and right hand drive models of the same car.

    Having them in various places makes for an easier time at the pumps, if every car had them driver’s side then one queue would always be bigger than the other.

    My car is right hand side and my wife’s left hand side, hers has a release inside whereas mine has a lock connected to the central locking. Requires thought when stopping for fuel. Her car does, as do most modern cars, have a little indicator arrow next to the fuel pump symbol on the gauge, that says which side the door is on.

    https://wonderfulengineering.com/gas-tanks-why-arent-all-fuel-doors-on-the-same-side/
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 28,535
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
    The difference is that in the UK the Tories and Labour are coalitions that are formed and give a platform BEFORE the election not after it.

    So voters here can make an educated decision as to which compromises have been made before they vote.
    Except no, you vote for Cameron and get May, you vote for May and get Johnson, you vote for Miliband and get Corbyn, you vote for Corbyn and get Starmer.
    Judging by how furious everyone seems to be about their parties betraying them, the benefit you just mentioned does not manifest.

    FPTP is electoral communism. It works in theory.
    Vote Kennedy, get Clegg.
    Oh .... double ..... dear.
  • TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    Depends where you live. In rural Devon, 999 ambulances are taking 2 -3 hours to get to you, so, entirely undramatically, having a usable car can be life vs death. So you tend to maximal caution.
    I get that. But unless you need fuel, your car is usable without being refuelled today. And if you do need fuel, you're not putting extra strain on the system.

    People topping up a half-full tank that they won't be using the extra fuel for another week or two are the morons who are creating the strain and they're not life or death.
    You have no idea how many are such people topping up half a tank. And it is rational as people don't know how long this situation will last.

    @DavidL is operating on the assumption of it all being over by Weds. Which it may well be. But that is still a judgement call.

    If it hadn't been for the very early panic buyers we might not be in this position, eh?
    If only people who would be filling up anyway were doing so, then there'd be no extra demand on the system.

    We had reports of stations selling more fuel in one day than they would in a week. That's not people who need the fuel urgently alone.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,205
    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    From my observations, any panic that there was in GM is already over. I filled up on Saturday - there was a queue of five minutes or so, but only for cars with pumps on their right. The left hand pumps were all free. Which made me think the problem was more a case of an imbalance of left- and right-handed pump cars turning up at the same time.

    How does the left vs right thing work? Do manufacturers do a 50:50 split across each model, or do they make all cars within the same model either left or right to reduce costs? Presumably there is some goal to even the numbers out?
    We have the same car as our previous car (but 8 years newer) and the fuel inlet has switched from right to left - the source of much confusion the first few times I filled up the new car.
    The manufacturers will just do whatever is cheapest based on the architecture of the particular vehicle.

    The RAF Minis used to have tanks on both sides for some reason that is now lost to history. I was present but not involved when an RAF Police Mini was deposited on a hangar roof using a Bell 412 Torque Monster at Shawbury.
    Was the Mini occupied at the time ?
  • Cyclefree said:

    I have to collect a sick cat from the cat hospital on Friday. It is in the middle of the countryside, a long way away. I have enough petrol to get there. But not enough to get home. I do hope the petrol issue resolves itself by then.

    Incidentally I wish one of my children had trained to be a vet. The cost of animal hospital treatment is eye-watering. I may as well have Frankel sleeping on my sofa.

    I'm not sure if this trick only works in Japan but I find if you get goats instead of cats they're classified as livestock, which means the vet comes to you instead of you having to go to the vet, and he charges a fraction of what the pet vet (run by his children) charges. Food is cheaper too, we get huge bails of hay from the agricultural coop place that cost like 1000 yen per goat-month.
    A goat, however, will eat your knitting rather than merely tangle their paws in it.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 1,708
    MattW said:

    mwadams said:

    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
    Or just tell the Green loonies to f*%k themselves, that heating people's homes in the winter takes priority over fashionable environmental fads, which is more and more what I think they should be doing.
    This is about energy security.

    There has been both a medium term failure and a number of long term failures of government.

    The medium term failure was insufficient focus on gas storage (and nuclear) as a transitional measure away from coal and towards renewables. For short-termist reasons.

    The long term failure is that renewable transition which could easily have been a decade or more ahead of where we are now, had we taken *less* heed of the fact that a lot of the UK Green policy has been chaotic nonsense for decades, and thought more about the underlying issue.

    Sadly we have 30 years of "if it's Green it must be nonsense" to overcome - which is a legitimate response to large swathes of the (UK) Green movement over the years, but not to the underlying environmental concerns they purport to express.
    As things stand we are getting on for a decade ahead of many of our peer countries, so I think we can cut ourselves some slack on that one.

    And not really sure about the "if it's Green it's nonsense", either. I think that for real policy initiatives, there has been a lot of significant stuff for a long time.

    Agree with the remainder, however.
    It's not the *truth* of "if It's Green it's nonsense" - it's that this has been the messaging of the right-of-centre world for ~30 years (the last truly right-of-centre environmental messaging being Thatcher and the ozone hole science >30y ago now). And that supertanker needs to be turned.

    And I agree that we are currently with the "leaders" in the space; I'm worried that we are going to be under-invested in the coming decades through complacency and a lack of understanding of the scale of the economic opportunity v. challenge of green tech.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 100,949
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
    The difference is that in the UK the Tories and Labour are coalitions that are formed and give a platform BEFORE the election not after it.

    So voters here can make an educated decision as to which compromises have been made before they vote.
    Except no, you vote for Cameron and get May, you vote for May and get Johnson, you vote for Miliband and get Corbyn, you vote for Corbyn and get Starmer.
    Judging by how furious everyone seems to be about their parties betraying them, the benefit you just mentioned does not manifest.

    FPTP is electoral communism. It works in theory.
    You vote for the party candidate here, not directly for the prime minister, we are not a presidential system

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,205
    LOL

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sector-resilience-plans
    Sector resilience plans set out the resilience of the UK’s most important infrastructure to the relevant risks identified in the National Risk Assessment. Produced annually, plans are placed before ministers to alert them to any perceived vulnerabilities, with a programme of measures to improve resilience where necessary....
  • DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    The cavalier decision making by various governments in the field of energy supply is just astonishing. Here are some examples: our own abandonment of gas storage in 2017, our prospective decommissioning of gas for domestic heating by 2030, the German abandonment of nuclear energy and reliance on gas from Russia while continuing to burn lignite (brown coal) until the mid-2030s.

    I think the proposition that we are going to completely replace tens of millions of gas boilers in houses, shops and offices in 10 years and replace them with heat pumps or something else is nothing short of fantastical. It is simply not going to happen. It may be that by the mid 2030s we might be able to stop burning gas just to produce electricity in power stations but changing our domestic source of energy is going to be impossibly difficult.
    If the roll out of smart meters is any indication then you are correct. It will be 2060 before gas boilers are replaced!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 16,800
    edited September 2021
    . South Wales update.

    BP in Bridgend, no queue, but no diesel. Tesco, big queue, Texaco Pencoed, big queue.

    So yep, like the fanbois were saying yesterday, it's all over.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,147
    Nigelb said:

    LOL

    https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/sector-resilience-plans
    Sector resilience plans set out the resilience of the UK’s most important infrastructure to the relevant risks identified in the National Risk Assessment. Produced annually, plans are placed before ministers to alert them to any perceived vulnerabilities, with a programme of measures to improve resilience where necessary....

    Economic resilience takes money. The Tories have decided that bribing over 60s for their votes is the single most important national objective so I don't see where the money is going to come from.
  • mwadams said:

    MattW said:

    mwadams said:

    Fishing said:

    eek said:

    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
    Or just tell the Green loonies to f*%k themselves, that heating people's homes in the winter takes priority over fashionable environmental fads, which is more and more what I think they should be doing.
    This is about energy security.

    There has been both a medium term failure and a number of long term failures of government.

    The medium term failure was insufficient focus on gas storage (and nuclear) as a transitional measure away from coal and towards renewables. For short-termist reasons.

    The long term failure is that renewable transition which could easily have been a decade or more ahead of where we are now, had we taken *less* heed of the fact that a lot of the UK Green policy has been chaotic nonsense for decades, and thought more about the underlying issue.

    Sadly we have 30 years of "if it's Green it must be nonsense" to overcome - which is a legitimate response to large swathes of the (UK) Green movement over the years, but not to the underlying environmental concerns they purport to express.
    As things stand we are getting on for a decade ahead of many of our peer countries, so I think we can cut ourselves some slack on that one.

    And not really sure about the "if it's Green it's nonsense", either. I think that for real policy initiatives, there has been a lot of significant stuff for a long time.

    Agree with the remainder, however.
    It's not the *truth* of "if It's Green it's nonsense" - it's that this has been the messaging of the right-of-centre world for ~30 years (the last truly right-of-centre environmental messaging being Thatcher and the ozone hole science >30y ago now). And that supertanker needs to be turned.

    And I agree that we are currently with the "leaders" in the space; I'm worried that we are going to be under-invested in the coming decades through complacency and a lack of understanding of the scale of the economic opportunity v. challenge of green tech.
    That's complete bollocks.

    This country had (once you account for offshored emissions) no emission reduction at all under the last Labour government. None whatsoever.

    Emissions under the Tory-led and Tory-only government since 2010 have collapsed as we have turned off the use of coal. Something left-of-centre nations across Europe, or left-of-centre USA under Obama until 2017 haven't done yet.

    This country has literally been a world leader under a centre-right government on this issue.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 41,205
    edited September 2021
    Another possible wrinkle...
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/26/uk-essar-energy-second-biggest-oil-refinery-on-brink-of-collapse-reports

    (Which presumably ought not to be reported, either ?)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 71,143

    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    The cavalier decision making by various governments in the field of energy supply is just astonishing. Here are some examples: our own abandonment of gas storage in 2017, our prospective decommissioning of gas for domestic heating by 2030, the German abandonment of nuclear energy and reliance on gas from Russia while continuing to burn lignite (brown coal) until the mid-2030s.

    I think the proposition that we are going to completely replace tens of millions of gas boilers in houses, shops and offices in 10 years and replace them with heat pumps or something else is nothing short of fantastical. It is simply not going to happen. It may be that by the mid 2030s we might be able to stop burning gas just to produce electricity in power stations but changing our domestic source of energy is going to be impossibly difficult.
    If the roll out of smart meters is any indication then you are correct. It will be 2060 before gas boilers are replaced!
    I've got solar panels and currently get deemed export. The situation as to whether I'd HAVE to go to metered export, and whether that'd be better for me is clear as mud. I might be better off, I have no idea but if I move over I won't be able to move back.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,151
    edited September 2021
    What's the next election? France in April?
  • For Labour Kremlin watchers, interesting thread on changes on NEC:

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1442412217413128192
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 35,147
    Nigelb said:
    It surely just gets nationalised and with the shareholders and junior bond holders wiped out.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,839
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    LOL

    I WAS ENTIRELY JUSTIFIED IN FILLING UP EVERYON ELSE IS PANIC BUYING.
    The panic buying began on Friday. Unless I have a TARDIS how do you think my filling up the day before the panic started in an empty forecourt was panic related? 🤦‍♂️
    Because you are a keen political observer and knew that this was coming and hence panic bought before everyone else panic bought.

    In fact, you are the early panic buyer whose fault this all is.
    If anyone had the ability to predict black swan events they wouldn't be posting on PB!
    Talking of swans...

    My parents' last car was temporarily put out of action by a swan. Came smack bang into the windscreen at ~40mph (they were in 40mph roadworks on a motorway). I don't think it was actually a black swan, but still a black swan event, I'd say. They didn't predict it, but neither do they post on PB (as far as I know!).

    The RSPCA turned up to attend to the swan before the police arrived to assess the situation and well before the insurer's recovery truck arrived. I don't know what happened to the swan in the end. For my parents it was just a new windscreen and a big shock, but they still find bits of glass occasionally.
  • . South Wales update.

    BP in Bridgend, no queue, but no diesel. Tesco, big queue, Texaco Pencoed, big queue.

    So yep, like the fanbois were saying yesterday, it's all over.


    Give it a week....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 35,327

    TOPPING said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just checking I've got this right.

    1. Any party that treats the voters as stupid (i.e. Labour) deserves to be consigned to electoral oblivion.

    2. The millions of voters who are panic buying unnecessarily and therefore creating a fuel shortage at the pumps are stupid morons (i.e. many PB Tories).

    Both are entirely consistent and appropriate.

    Speaking as a PB (ex)Tory yes the panic buying morons are morons.

    And if the government said "listen morons stop being stupid" then they'd deserve to lose. They're rightly more discrete than that.

    I'm not a politician so I can speak my mind. Though then people complain about politicians not being frank so they can't really win.
    Philip Thompson: "I filled up on Thursday at ASDA."
    Also Philip Thompson: "the panic buying morons are morons"
    I filled up on Thursday as my tank was empty. My light was on and by arrow was pointing below the E which is the point I always fill up. At the time I filled up only 2 of the 8 pumps were in use, including my own.

    Had my tank been half-full, I wouldn't have filled up.

    Those whose tanks are empty and would have filled up anyway are not the ones causing this mess.
    Depends where you live. In rural Devon, 999 ambulances are taking 2 -3 hours to get to you, so, entirely undramatically, having a usable car can be life vs death. So you tend to maximal caution.
    I get that. But unless you need fuel, your car is usable without being refuelled today. And if you do need fuel, you're not putting extra strain on the system.

    People topping up a half-full tank that they won't be using the extra fuel for another week or two are the morons who are creating the strain and they're not life or death.
    You have no idea how many are such people topping up half a tank. And it is rational as people don't know how long this situation will last.

    @DavidL is operating on the assumption of it all being over by Weds. Which it may well be. But that is still a judgement call.

    If it hadn't been for the very early panic buyers we might not be in this position, eh?
    If only people who would be filling up anyway were doing so, then there'd be no extra demand on the system.

    We had reports of stations selling more fuel in one day than they would in a week. That's not people who need the fuel urgently alone.
    It is people worrying that the fuel crisis is going to escalate and they don't know when they might next be able to fill up.

    Do you know when it will be resolved? Nor me.

    They, and you, were and are behaving rationally.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 19,377
    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    kamski said:

    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.

    Yes, both Union-Greens-FDP, and SPD-Union are possible. SPD-Greens-FDP is by far the most likely, but it depends on the negotiations. The FDP would certainly prefer a Union-led government to an SPD led government, so are likely to drive a hard bargain (and their position is considerably strengthened by the fact that SPD-Green-Left narrowly failed to get enough for a majority).
    Either way haggling between parties will determine the government, not the votes cast.

    Thank goodness we have FPTP here in this country!
    Coalition is unavoidable everywhere, the only question is whether you try to fit a wide range of views in one party or in many.
    We haven't seen the kind of political turmoil in Germany that we have seen in the UK in recent years.

    And here's another thing: the voters like it. When was the last time German turnout was lower than 70%? When was the last time UK turnout was higher than 70%
    The difference is that in the UK the Tories and Labour are coalitions that are formed and give a platform BEFORE the election not after it.

    So voters here can make an educated decision as to which compromises have been made before they vote.
    Except no, you vote for Cameron and get May, you vote for May and get Johnson, you vote for Miliband and get Corbyn, you vote for Corbyn and get Starmer.
    Judging by how furious everyone seems to be about their parties betraying them, the benefit you just mentioned does not manifest.

    FPTP is electoral communism. It works in theory.
    Elegant post.
This discussion has been closed.