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Will the panickers stop panicking when their tanks are full? – politicalbetting.com

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,119
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    Well quite.

    What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.

    Followed by the [email protected] and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
    Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per week :smile:

    But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
    The answer is, it depends on what those six days of fuel are for.

    If I’m spending the next six days taking a sick relative to their chemotherapy on the other side of the country, then yes I worry about fuel. I’ll drive around all night and brim the 75 litre tank at every opportunity.

    If I’m spending the next six days driving to the office, or to meet friends, then I’m not too worried, if I run out, I’ll work from home until everyone’s stopped panicking.

    Surely one thing we’ve all learned over the past 18 months, is that life can be lived remotely when required.

    Personally, I live about 15 miles from the office. A tank will last about three weeks if I don’t go anywhere else.
    What we've learned from the past 18 months is that some jobs can't be done from home.

    "Driving to the office" when your office is a hospital ward of bus depot or...or...

    But yes to the majority of PBers it is all a fuss over nothing because we can retire to the study to do our work.
    Oh indeed, but what we are seeing is a bunch of selfish [email protected] who don’t really need fuel for a few days, getting in the way of those who do.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    edited September 2021
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.

    I read that quickly and thought you were saying the 'army may be sent in but the Provos were against it'.

    Now that really would be a return to the 1970s 😬
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.

    The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.

    There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.

    So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?

    And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
    For all of the flap, the change in tuition fees was a positive step in allowing poorer students access. Instead of fees up front it was hypothecated fees when earning.

    The issue was funding for universities. With the government contribution to uni teaching cut by 78%, we've seen institutions both get it in the neck for charging the "maximum" £9k a year and offering poor tuition due to a lack of money.

    Anyway, think what these £9k fees are. Instead of the government handing money to the universities, it hands it to student loans who pay it to universities. We know that in this era of bankism debt is an asset. How much "asset" was added to bank balance sheets in this way? a very quiet way to keep injecting cash into a broken banking system.
    And the funding comes down to the idea that 50% of kids need to go to university. IMV that was always an insane target, and has massively skewed expectations, education and the jobs market.

    IMV everything else leads on from that.
    Except that sort of figure for Tertiary education is the norm in nearly all competitor economies. It reaches 69% in South Korea. Italy and Germany are the exceptions in the developed world.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

    Maybe Britons are thicker than other nations, but that doesn't bode well for the future.

    The problem perhaps is more the poor quality of many courses, particularly in terms of contact time with students, so little value added.

    I think that the cost of Tertiary education is quite inflated in Britain by two factors: Universities use undergraduate fees to subsidise other things, and second that British students want to live a good lifestyle away from home. Few go to nearby Universities. The student loan system barely covers rent, and not even close to that in London and a number of other cities.
    Except tertiary education != universities. From your link;

    " The World Bank, for example, defines tertiary education as including universities as well as institutions that teach specific capacities of higher learning such as colleges, technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers."

    That's where we're going wrong. Universities are just one strand of tertiary education, and yet they've grown to dominate. We'd be much better sorted with other types as well, in particular on-job training.
    That is pretty much what I said. The problem is not the numbers going, but rather the poor quality of much British Tertiary education, and the emphasis on a partying life away from home.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Narrow minded people generally don't travel much
    Narrow minded people generally don't realise that driving a car is not the only way to travel.
    LOL. It is when it is.

    But good point otherwise, those cycle lanes on the A1(M) are full to brimming.
    When did the East Coast Main Line stop running? I missed that.

    I live in a small village, no public transport, so I know about how essential cars can be.

    But to equate driving few miles with being narrow-minded, as @Nigel_Foremain did is, er, very narrow-minded imho.
    Except he had the poster in question spot on.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,271

    Scott_xP said:

    TimS said:

    I sort of agree, but sort of don't. This one won't do it, but given the taboo surrounding even uttering the word Brexit despite most of the visions of project fear unfolding before our eyes there needs to be some kind of electoral protest party out there to keep pressure on the opposition.

    The taboo is breaking.

    The Express headline today is "Don't blame Brexit" and I think IDS penned a Telegraph column with the same line

    Pathetic whiny pleading from the architects suggests that they think people are in fact joining the dots...
    And psychologically foolish.

    It's like saying "don't think of an elephant"... Inevitably you have nothing but pachyderms in your head.
    As Reagan said: If you're explaining, you're losing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    Well quite.

    What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.

    Followed by the [email protected] and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
    Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per week :smile:

    But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
    My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.

    Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
    It's interesting - because ofc the longer one leaves it the less wiggle room there is to find a station.

    My point is, cf queuing outside Northern Rock, it is eminently rational for people to "panic buy" in such circumstances.

    Unless of course you are sitting in your garden looking out over a charming vista counting insects and not driving anywhere.
    This is again the prisoner's dilemma but it's not that exact variant where you need to move instantly because in this case there is no finite limit as we know deliveries are continuing.

    So it's more a matter of deciding when is the best guess that a petrol station will have had a fuel delivery and people have stopped immediately panicking. Which is why I'm not doing anything about it today as it would be a fools errand.
    v sensible. We are probably at the peak (trough?) of petrol non availability. We hope, obvs.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,640
    Jonathan said:

    The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.

    The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.

    Covid was a thing that happened to us, and the Government made a bad fist of it.

    Brexit was a thing the Government entirely did to us, and they fucked that up even worse.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    Well quite.

    What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.

    Followed by the [email protected] and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
    Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per week :smile:

    But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
    The answer is, it depends on what those six days of fuel are for.

    If I’m spending the next six days taking a sick relative to their chemotherapy on the other side of the country, then yes I worry about fuel. I’ll drive around all night and brim the 75 litre tank at every opportunity.

    If I’m spending the next six days driving to the office, or to meet friends, then I’m not too worried, if I run out, I’ll work from home until everyone’s stopped panicking.

    Surely one thing we’ve all learned over the past 18 months, is that life can be lived remotely when required.

    Personally, I live about 15 miles from the office. A tank will last about three weeks if I don’t go anywhere else.
    What we've learned from the past 18 months is that some jobs can't be done from home.

    "Driving to the office" when your office is a hospital ward of bus depot or...or...

    But yes to the majority of PBers it is all a fuss over nothing because we can retire to the study to do our work.
    Oh indeed, but what we are seeing is a bunch of selfish [email protected] who don’t really need fuel for a few days, getting in the way of those who do.
    You have absolutely no way of knowing that.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,932
    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    Well quite.

    What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.

    Followed by the [email protected] and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
    Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per week :smile:

    But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
    My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.

    Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
    Dropped in for fuel last night when out testing the heating in a hoose.

    Our local ASDA - not sure. Our local Morrisons is out of diesel (though it let me have me some dregs), but still has petrol. About 4 cars in the station at 9pm.

    No idea on the restocking situation.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,053

    malcolmg said:

    MikeL said:

    Anyone who thinks Lab would have any chance whatsoever under Rayner take a look at the front pages - all with the same picture of her - she looks totally inconceivable as a possible PM.

    She looks better than Starmer
    Says the man who still (in spite of everything that is known about him) supports the fat little toad known as "Wee Eck" . Such a great judge of character you are Malc lol.
    Have you not F***ed off yet slimeball.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 11,932
    edited September 2021
    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark
  • tlg86 said:

    Fuel anecdote. Driving back from football yesterday, my friend was on the phone to his brother who had just managed to fill up. The person in front of him filled up two jerry cans. Whilst he was filling up, he heard the bloke next to him hit the clicker pretty quickly. So he had a look to see how much he had put in. £12.

    The numpties filling up with well over half a tank are obviously contributing to the traffic jams, but this will soon be over.

    I'll have a guess that fuel shortages are like food (aka bottled water) shortages, unaffordable housing, train strikes and exploitative business whining they can't get people to work for minimum wages very much a London & South-East issue.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 26,688
    Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.
  • TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    eek said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    Well quite.

    What it appears happened is that a single fuel distributor in Kent lost a few drivers to a rival, which caused a handful of petrol stations to run out before their delivery. This was first noticed on Thursday.

    Followed by the [email protected] and some of the MSM shouting loudly “Don’t talk about PANIC BUYING”, and three days later we unsurprisingly have a self-fulfilling prophecy of queues for petrol everywhere.
    Well I know that you don't drive any miles in the UK per week :smile:

    But come back to my example: You have six days of petrol left in your car. Do you tough it out and wait for whatever the HMF fuel tanker equivalent of the Green Goddesses or do you go looking for petrol.
    My car probably has fuel for 50 miles in it. As it will take a few days for stations to be refilled and I don't need it today I will set off tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday to try and find some fuel.

    Facebook will probably tell me when things arrive but I'm not in any hurry provided a have it before Saturday.
    It's interesting - because ofc the longer one leaves it the less wiggle room there is to find a station.

    My point is, cf queuing outside Northern Rock, it is eminently rational for people to "panic buy" in such circumstances.

    Unless of course you are sitting in your garden looking out over a charming vista counting insects and not driving anywhere.
    This is again the prisoner's dilemma but it's not that exact variant where you need to move instantly because in this case there is no finite limit as we know deliveries are continuing.

    So it's more a matter of deciding when is the best guess that a petrol station will have had a fuel delivery and people have stopped immediately panicking. Which is why I'm not doing anything about it today as it would be a fools errand.
    v sensible. We are probably at the peak (trough?) of petrol non availability. We hope, obvs.
    There's only so much fuel people can put in their tanks. Once all the panickers have their tanks brim full, demand will drop below normal for a few weeks.

    And 'normal' now is still, I suspect, less than 'normal' was pre-covid.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 18,640
    - Grant Shapps relaxed rules in July to let HGV drivers work longer hours

    - in the first month of the relaxation, just 517 of the UK’s roughly 300,000 active HGV drivers notified the Department for Transport that they intended to use the scheme

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/09/26/shapps-plan-let-truckers-work-longer-hours-fall-flat/
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,308
    Foxy said:

    RE German Elections:

    My instinct says Scholz will probably push for a reverse 'grand coalition' with the CDU, as an SPD/Green coalition isn't enough for a majority, and the FDP seem (economically at least) to the right of the CDU/CSU.

    I don't think so - difficult to spend an election campaigning against someone, win handsomely, and then invite them into a coalition. The FDP and Greens have different priorities but not totally conflicting ones - the Greens are centrist on economics (and frankly barely interested) but want lots of green initiatives, the FDP are classic (i.e. right-wing, as you say) liberals on econimics and agnostic on greenery (and similarly barely interested). Neither of them have indulged in the culture war nonsense, and they were both being polite about each other last night. An SPD/Green/FDP coalition looks natural. You can still get 1.37 odds for it on Betfair. You can get 10 on Rob's bet if you want a saver. None of the other possibilities look at all likely.
    It's always difficult to read messages from fragmented electoral results, but doesn't the most accurate reading from the German people seem to be "we'd like more of the same please, but with Scholz as chancellor instead of the other chap?"
    I think you can't ignore the Green surge, even if it fell short of what seemed likely at one point. The "not very big 2" getting together to rule would look dated immediately. On paper a grand SPD/CDU/Green coalition would work better, but I'd have thought the FDP claim on a small share of government was much better than the CDU claim on a big share after a disastrous result.
    One other notable feature of the German results is that the Junior partner of the coalition came out on top. Not often that we see that.
    Change of leaders. Shows how much they matter.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,271
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!

    https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/

    The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924
    kinabalu said:

    Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.

    I have an electric car...
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,109
    Foxy said:

    RE German Elections:

    My instinct says Scholz will probably push for a reverse 'grand coalition' with the CDU, as an SPD/Green coalition isn't enough for a majority, and the FDP seem (economically at least) to the right of the CDU/CSU.

    I don't think so - difficult to spend an election campaigning against someone, win handsomely, and then invite them into a coalition. The FDP and Greens have different priorities but not totally conflicting ones - the Greens are centrist on economics (and frankly barely interested) but want lots of green initiatives, the FDP are classic (i.e. right-wing, as you say) liberals on econimics and agnostic on greenery (and similarly barely interested). Neither of them have indulged in the culture war nonsense, and they were both being polite about each other last night. An SPD/Green/FDP coalition looks natural. You can still get 1.37 odds for it on Betfair. You can get 10 on Rob's bet if you want a saver. None of the other possibilities look at all likely.
    It's always difficult to read messages from fragmented electoral results, but doesn't the most accurate reading from the German people seem to be "we'd like more of the same please, but with Scholz as chancellor instead of the other chap?"
    I think you can't ignore the Green surge, even if it fell short of what seemed likely at one point. The "not very big 2" getting together to rule would look dated immediately. On paper a grand SPD/CDU/Green coalition would work better, but I'd have thought the FDP claim on a small share of government was much better than the CDU claim on a big share after a disastrous result.
    One other notable feature of the German results is that the Junior partner of the coalition came out on top. Not often that we see that.
    A few years ago the SPD was dead and buried. Labour need to look and learn.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 35,053

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Narrow minded people generally don't travel much
    You will be housebound then
  • MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Its government strategy to run down anything fossil fuel related and has been for years.
  • I like the Jamaica coalition, I think it's my ideal form of government. It's a wide spectrum of well-intentioned people, which inevitably means there are lots of bad ideas, but for each of the bad ideas there's someone in another party who can explain why it's bad and hopefully stop them doing it.
  • TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    And then in three days time when the stations have been refuelled and there is no issue anymore as all the idiots have full tanks and all the stations are working ... What do you do then other than clean the egg off your face.

    The 2000 fuel crisis only lasted weeks because stations were NOT being refilled. They are today. Even then despite weeks of disruption, the 2001 election wasn't exactly fortuitous for the Opposition now was it?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,586
    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    The government would be well advised to stop blaming the media or the people and start thinking why people lack confidence and how it might rebuild it.

    The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.

    The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.


    Thats a very good point, but what do you think they could do to reassure at this point?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 993
    There's an interesting parallel in the blame game between this and the financial crisis. Both are international problems, with the UK appearing to be suffering more than some others.

    In the financial crisis Brown's defence was exactly that this was global, had started in the US, that Britain is doing its best to weather the storm. Cameron's mantra, repeatedly, was to lay all the blame for the crisis squarely on Brown's shoulders. It worked a trick.

    Same now, if Labour has any sense. It's an international issue exacerbated by particularly British factors notably including Brexit. They should take a leaf out of Cameron's book. But they won't, because they're frit of the mythological red wall voters they are so desperate to placate.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Narrow minded people generally don't travel much
    Narrow minded people generally don't realise that driving a car is not the only way to travel.
    LOL. It is when it is.

    But good point otherwise, those cycle lanes on the A1(M) are full to brimming.
    When did the East Coast Main Line stop running? I missed that.

    I live in a small village, no public transport, so I know about how essential cars can be.

    But to equate driving few miles with being narrow-minded, as @Nigel_Foremain did is, er, very narrow-minded imho.
    Except he had the poster in question spot on.
    From the blockquotes the 'poster in question' looks to be you.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 5,549
    edited September 2021

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
    Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,165
    Re OGH's question, I think it does have to settle down in terms of fuel buying. Even if people with almost full tanks keep topping up, you still reach equilibrium unless they actually drive a lot more to find stations to top up. Whereas people were topping up say 35L (for easy maths) every week, if they top up 5L every day instead then they'll buy the same fuel. The shortage now is everyone with say space for 30L topping up ASAP when most would have waited a few days at least. That fuel sold now should mean less demand when they would normally have topped up. The question is, how long does it take to get to that equilibrium (i.e. how long until everyone fills up wouldn't normally have done so). The longer it goes on, the more people will panic buy. It doesn't necessarily end until everyone has panic bought once.

    There could still be queues at fuel stations even after the equilibrium point as everyone topping up 5L is very inefficient use of the stations. But there should, barring a worsening of the distribution problems, be fuel there (after queueing) within a few (depending on above) days.

    We're good for at least a couple of weeks, from refuelling well over a week ago. We won't be topping up until we're in the red, which is about 70 miles. I have a lot of sympathy for those commuting by car, those who were low on fuel and those with big trips planned who will be getting twitchy.
  • TOPPING said:

    Let's revise the numbers again.

    Our apparent shortage: 100,000.

    Of which,

    50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
    25,000 fewer tests Covid.
    25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.

    Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.

    And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353

    Nigelb said:

    I see in the FT that the government are planning to raise some more tax. The target? Young workers of course, with the repayment threshold moving down from £27,295 to around £20-23k. Serves them right for not voting for Brexit or Boris.

    Disgusting if true.
    Its true, they nearly all voted remain, and most voted Labour, Green or LD, if they could even be bothered to get out of bed in time. I concur, it's disgusting treacherous behaviour and bravo brave Sir Boris for taxing them into punary.
    Punitive penury ?
    I applaud the neologism.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,713
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!

    https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/

    The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
    Unless you've got parallel RUSX filters, which you'll find on all 2015+ PWKK engines.
  • LoewLoew Posts: 5
    Of course there really is a shortage of HGV drivers but the way the propaganda has been run is akin to an exercise, or preparation, or build-up.

    Those geniuses who believe that the author of Grant Shapps's tweets (or Shapps himself, if they think he writes them) didn't know that telling a crowd "don't panic" causes them to panic are sweetly amusing... At least that would be one way of putting it.

    In reality, nobody at that level of the administration is so stupid as not to understand that well-known fact. It's quite an easy thing for politicians to grasp because when you have contempt for the population you are nine-tenths of the way there.

    The same point could be made about toilet paper in 2020. Toilet paper is an emotional subject in Britain because prudish Daily Mail readers think bums are rude (ooh er, missus!), and also because if you have to use something else to do the job then you'll be dealing with bodily waste for a few seconds more than you do normally, the very idea of which gives about half the British population a frisson of delighted disgust - as also does the "surfacing" of bottomwiping into the realm of the social. To look through your net curtains and wonder how your neighbour is wiping his bum is petty bourgeois heaven. Meanwhile you can buy 120 toilet rolls for your own family and think how terrible it is that "some people" do things like that.

    My purpose here is not so much to be comical as to point up something about a certain moment of time last year when the army were preparing to deliver supplies (and in some cases actually delivering them) to hospitals and the army were also talking to supermarket companies, including at local level, about food distribution. Such developments were by no means a joke. They were extremely serious and they were preparation for the kind of emergency that would dwarf anything we have seen not since the Three-Day Week and its far less severe successor the Winter of Discontent but since WW2. And at the said moment of time, about half the population were obediently wondering whether they'd have to wipe their bums with newspaper or in their shower with their hands. Hats off to the nudge unit. Attention was mostly directed away from the other shelves in the supermarkets.

    The alternative explanation for the current whipping up of the "panic at the pumps" is that the government plans to solve the problem fast and thereby look good in the VI polls. The problems with this explanation are that the problem is unlikely to be solved fast, and halfway through a parliament who gives a toss about VI polls?

    Those who have so planet-helpily reduced their carbon footprint by going all-electric in their homes (as it used to be called) may like to consider what they'll cook on in the event of prolonged power cuts...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686
    isam said:

    The cornerstone of any nutritious breakfast


    EXCLUSIVE: Keir Starmer is fired up for day three of Labour conference, fuelled by… FISH AND CHEESE

    More of this vital journalism on @TimesRadio from 10am live from Brighton


    https://twitter.com/mattchorley/status/1442392346889539585?s=21

    Wot, not skyr?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 13,155
    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,109

    Jonathan said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    The government would be well advised to stop blaming the media or the people and start thinking why people lack confidence and how it might rebuild it.

    The CV19 situation taught us that bad things happen, which the government can't control. That memory is raw and people, rightly or wrongly, are taking responsibility for themselves by creating a local cache.

    The government would have been better advised to swing the other way and do things that are reassuring, rather than 'crisis, what crisis'.


    Thats a very good point, but what do you think they could do to reassure at this point?
    The first thing to do is stop blaming people. Take a line saying "the last few years have been tough and it is understandable that people want to make sure they are secure. The govt gets that and these are the measures we are taking to get us through the next few days as petrol is distributed around the country..."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 35,353
    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 1,347
    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:



    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.

    The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.

    There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.

    So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?

    And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
    You are comparing student loans to a car loan; so it is really a false comparison. Student loans are there to facilitate higher education, which has a wider societal benefit that goes beyond other consumer goods; and for which there are a longstanding principle of access for all based on merit, secured by government intervention in the market.

    Personally, I have no objection to the principle of paying for higher education. However, the government should not under any circumstances be able to profit from it, as it is now doing, under a system of loans administered by the government through taxation.
    Surely, who pays for something should bear some relation to who benefits from it?

    And the higher up the education stack you go, the more it is the individual that benefits. Is it so very unreasonable to ask them to contribute?
    I just don't think the latter comment is necessarily true. My suspicion is that there is now little or no benefit in monetary terms for doing a degree. Certainly this is my experience, many of my Russell Group friends seem to have either developed various debilitating mental health issues which make them unable to work; carry out low paid work in the education/culture sector; or do unglamorous vocational careers (like myself). There are a few big winners, but they are not the norm. Perhaps I was just a bit unfortunate in my choice of friends.

    There is also a problem of opportunity cost, whilst you are doing a degree, you are not earning; nor are you automatically gaining useful skills. So, I don't think there is necessarily a major benefit for individuals. Much of the actual benefit from university expansion is to the universities themselves and the higher education sector. Also to the communities universities are located in; they can play a significant role in regeneration. I am not dismissing this, but it is unfair to then rinse out graduates on average salaries for the rest of their lives to pay for such benefit. Such initiatives should really be funded by general taxation.

    I've never objected to fees, I think they are desirable for the reason you point out; but for the majority of courses they should have been limited to £3k per year; which is reasonable for 6 hours a week of lectures for 20 weeks in a year, and access to associated resources (which is what most courses actually are). If someone lived at home (as a lot of people end up doing long after they graduate), this could be largely funded by part time work with no need for much in the way of a loan.
  • Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    darkage said:

    With regard to student loan repayment issue; it is worth reflecting on how we got in to this mess. Many people on here view the coalition years (2010-2015) as a glorious example of strong and mature government. My view to the contrary is that this was the worst government in living history.

    The student loans are nothing but a con. The degree courses people were directed in to going on, at £9k per annum to go on were, in a very, very large number of cases, completely and utterly useless and a waste of 3 years of young peoples lives when they could have been doing something economically productive instead. The con gets worse when one looks at the repayment system. The absolute scandal is the interest rates, they are set at RPI, which is 1.5%, not the actual bank of england interest rate which is 0.1%. The interest rate increases to 4.5% when students start earning any significant salary. It is effectively a system of cynical exploitation of young people.

    There is a lot of anger about this, it is the one policy area where it is possible to sympathise with people like Andrea Rayner.

    So, between 1.5% and 4.5% for unsecured personal debt, where repayments are automatically paused in the event of unemployment, is a bad deal?

    And, don't people who choose to do degrees in Film Studies bear some responsibility for their choices? Or do only you get to choose?
    For all of the flap, the change in tuition fees was a positive step in allowing poorer students access. Instead of fees up front it was hypothecated fees when earning.

    The issue was funding for universities. With the government contribution to uni teaching cut by 78%, we've seen institutions both get it in the neck for charging the "maximum" £9k a year and offering poor tuition due to a lack of money.

    Anyway, think what these £9k fees are. Instead of the government handing money to the universities, it hands it to student loans who pay it to universities. We know that in this era of bankism debt is an asset. How much "asset" was added to bank balance sheets in this way? a very quiet way to keep injecting cash into a broken banking system.
    And the funding comes down to the idea that 50% of kids need to go to university. IMV that was always an insane target, and has massively skewed expectations, education and the jobs market.

    IMV everything else leads on from that.
    Except that sort of figure for Tertiary education is the norm in nearly all competitor economies. It reaches 69% in South Korea. Italy and Germany are the exceptions in the developed world.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment

    Maybe Britons are thicker than other nations, but that doesn't bode well for the future.

    The problem perhaps is more the poor quality of many courses, particularly in terms of contact time with students, so little value added.

    I think that the cost of Tertiary education is quite inflated in Britain by two factors: Universities use undergraduate fees to subsidise other things, and second that British students want to live a good lifestyle away from home. Few go to nearby Universities. The student loan system barely covers rent, and not even close to that in London and a number of other cities.
    Except tertiary education != universities. From your link;

    " The World Bank, for example, defines tertiary education as including universities as well as institutions that teach specific capacities of higher learning such as colleges, technical training institutes, community colleges, nursing schools, research laboratories, centers of excellence, and distance learning centers."

    That's where we're going wrong. Universities are just one strand of tertiary education, and yet they've grown to dominate. We'd be much better sorted with other types as well, in particular on-job training.
    That is pretty much what I said. The problem is not the numbers going, but rather the poor quality of much British Tertiary education, and the emphasis on a partying life away from home.
    I'm unsure it is. I talked about he goal of 50% to university, and you talked about tertiary education. These are not, and should not be, the same.

    We need plumbers. I see no need for plumbers to go to university; they'd be much better served with an apprenticeship and then a C&G. We have too much university, and not enough apprenticeships and other further education.
  • If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.

    At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,165
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.

    I have an electric car...
    Which is an interesting point. I assue you're going about your life humming contentedly and every time someone mentions the fuel crisis you look wise like Gandalf smoking a pipe and note that you just plug in at home/work :smile: Will get people thinking. There are different kinds of range anxiety, afterall.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,586
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    The point being the issue is not that the country is running out of fuel, but there is an issue getting the reserves to the pumps. You may think I am making a silly point, but this issue would not have arisen without the media stoking the fire, in my view, quite deliberately. I mean the bbc sending our 'Phil McCann' for gods sake?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 21,308
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    I think it was utterly disgraceful that they reported that a few petrol stations had been closed due to something that had been going on for weeks.

    We have freedom of speech. We don't have the right to shout fire in a crowded room.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,686
    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    The years when I did 80,000 are long behind me....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    And then in three days time when the stations have been refuelled and there is no issue anymore as all the idiots have full tanks and all the stations are working ... What do you do then other than clean the egg off your face.

    The 2000 fuel crisis only lasted weeks because stations were NOT being refilled. They are today. Even then despite weeks of disruption, the 2001 election wasn't exactly fortuitous for the Opposition now was it?
    No, because for all its faults later on, the first term of the Blair government got back to it's usual competence. The current situation is that the Johnson regime is demonstrating its usual incompetence, lack of planning and winging it.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    It's not entirely rational unless you need the fuel. And if you need the fuel, you'd have been filling up anyway so won't be changing the demand.

    People topping up "just in case" for fuel they won't need for another week or two by which time the stations would be full again are not being logical.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,119
    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
  • Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    They don't normally. It's not uncommon for some stations somewhere in the country not to have a type of fuel or even to be sold out.

    But that doesn't suit an agenda normally so it isn't commented upon when it happens.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 93,364
    edited September 2021
    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    tlg86 said:

    Combined share of the SPD and Union over the last six elections...

    2002 - 77.0%
    2005 - 69.4%
    2009 - 56.8%
    2013 - 67.2%
    2017 - 53.4%
    2021 - 49.8%

    Does that mean that SDP/CDU is short of a majority or does the "wasted" votes on those who didn't reach the threshold get them over the line?
    According to Wiki, they are comfortably over the threshold with 402 seats (368 needed for a majority):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_German_federal_election#Preliminary_results

    I never thought it had much of a chance, but worth noting that SPD + Green + Die Linke = 363, leaving it five short of a majority.

    The media are calling the Greens kingmakers. I actually think it's the FDP that will decide the outcome.
    Interestingly on the constituency first vote the CDU/CSU are actually ahead on 143 constituencies to 121 for the SPD with almost all results in.

    So if Germany had FPTP the Union would be ahead on seats and Laschet would be chancellor.

    It is the 105 list seats the SPD have won to just 53 for the CDU that will likely make Scholz chancellor.

    As far as I can see this will be the first German election since 1969 where the party which won most constituencies did not win most seats overall.

    Then it was the Union which won most seats overall despite the SPD winning most constituencies but SPD leader Brandt became chancellor nonetheless in a deal with the FDP unlike it seems Laschet
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_German_federal_election#Preliminary_results
  • ONS:

    People who had received one or two doses of a coronavirus vaccine were less likely to test positive for coronavirus (COVID-19) in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.

    People living in a household of three or more occupants were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.

    Those in younger age groups were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.

    People who never wore a face covering in enclosed spaces were more likely to test positive for COVID-19 in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.

    Those who reported socially distanced contact with 11 or more people aged 18 to 69 years outside their household were more likely to test positive for COVID-19, in the fortnight ending 11 September 2021.


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticle/analysisofpopulationsintheukbyriskoftestingpositiveforcovid19september2021
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    edited September 2021

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924
    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
  • Mr. Sandpit, a blind fixation on 'green' things and consideration of coal and gas as sinful has plagued governments of all colours.
  • TOPPING said:

    Interesting re fuel. Yesterday on a trip I would say that approx 80% of petrol stations on the midlands stretch of the A1 were cordoned off no fuel.

    So what should people do - wait for it to blow over (3-10 days?) and carry on as normal or go seek petrol now because if they have six days of fuel left they are at significant risk.

    Yes. Most people only have a 1-2 vehicles, and only a minority will try and fill jerry cans on top (5%? 10%?). Once their tanks are full, then what?

    There's a limit to how much fuel can be panic bought, particularly since travel is only at 90% of pre-Covid levels and others will be conservative in their travel, so although demand has surged over the last few days - as future demand has been brought forward - it will naturally tail-off this week.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
    I imagine they migh be happier doing this than trying to sort evacuees from terrorists on the gat at Kabul airport tbh.
  • Sky business confirming Rolls Royce have built all the engines for the the UK nucleur submarine fleet going back 60 years and will benefit from AUKUS agreement
  • LoewLoew Posts: 5

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    They don't normally. It's not uncommon for some stations somewhere in the country not to have a type of fuel or even to be sold out.

    But that doesn't suit an agenda normally so it isn't commented upon when it happens.
    Indeed.
    @Sandpit - Your only error is to blame evil wicked journalists with an anti-government "agenda". They were visibly egged on by the DfT.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,119
    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!

    https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/

    The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
    What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?

    Even F1 has been on pretty much standard Super 98 for more than a decade, after the fuel wars of the ‘90s led to all sorts of horrible potions being used as fuel.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    edited September 2021

    Mr. Sandpit, a blind fixation on 'green' things and consideration of coal and gas as sinful has plagued governments of all colours.

    Yeah, they should just get on and trash the planet - who cares?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 5,586
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
    Never been in the army, but I've always wondered what a soldier does for his job, outside of his initial training? I live on Salisbury Plain so am surrounded by the military, and for sure there are training exercises a lot of the time. But surely a soldier doesn't do 38 hours a week of training to fight, week in, week out do they? Or am I exposing my ignorance?
  • eekeek Posts: 17,739
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The only surprise is that Mr Putin is doing it now and didn't start doing it a few years back which makes me wonder if the stories about production issues in Russia a couple of weeks back are true.
  • TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
    Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.
    There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.

    Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.

    Or

    Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.

    It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.

    It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    OT Regarding the German election, is there any other possible outcome beyond an SPD/Green/FDP coalition with Scholz as Chancellor?

    Genuine question - I know next to nothing of German politics.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 3,119
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,109
    Is it rational or irrational to trust Michael Green Grant Shapps and Boris Johnson?
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopeless
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 36,119

    If the Government are going to charge students a commercial level of interest on their debt, then they should offer them commercial terms - including the opportunity to refinance, overpay, underpay, wrap it into a mortgage, take a payment holiday etc.

    At present, the Government is trying to have it both ways: it's effectively a compulsory tax of 9% above c.£27k a year - with penalties for early repayment - *and* they are charging commercial interest on it.

    How’s about governments get out of the student finance market altogether, and let students argue with a bank manager as to the relative costs and benefits of the course they wish to take, with course and salary data to back it up?
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 3,165
    GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    Bit of redundacy there? A shadow cabinet member told me 'Tory' and 'Scum' were synonymous :wink:
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924
    Selebian said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Not to be smug or complacent but I have a full tank. Couldn't be fuller.

    I have an electric car...
    Which is an interesting point. I assue you're going about your life humming contentedly and every time someone mentions the fuel crisis you look wise like Gandalf smoking a pipe and note that you just plug in at home/work :smile: Will get people thinking. There are different kinds of range anxiety, afterall.
    Yes, off to the IoW this week to sort out my MiL's funeral and affairs. Glad that we are not going in my Fiat 500, but rather the e-niro. It does 270 miles on a charge, and the IoW is about 175 door to door, so plenty of spare

    Fine until the power cuts start anyway! At least the wind is blowing again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    The years when I did 80,000 are long behind me....
    Indeed and it shows by your dismissal of those people who still do need to drive trying to get the fuel to do so.
  • MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    edited September 2021
    Fishing said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    We should be fracking like the Americans are: domestic supply and lower prices.
    ... but not in any Tory MPs back-yard obvs.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,713

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Another day of some of the most irresponsible journalism of the past two years - and that is really saying something.

    There’s a certain section of the media - most of whom live in London, and whose idea of private transport is when the boss gets them an Addison Lee for the day to take them around - who seem to think that it’s justifiable to stoke a run on petrol, which will lead to key workers being unable to work, and as we have seen some minor social disturbances, if it means they can use the crisis they made up to bash the government.

    At this point they’re shouting fire in a crowded theatre, and there isn’t a fire except for the one they lit themselves.

    Utter tosh.
    You're effectively arguing that the media ought not to report unsupplied service stations.
    They don't normally. It's not uncommon for some stations somewhere in the country not to have a type of fuel or even to be sold out.

    But that doesn't suit an agenda normally so it isn't commented upon when it happens.
    What you call an agenda, others would call a story. Isolated supply issues = boring. A pattern of supply issues = interesting.

    Sometimes people talk about things that make your pet political project look bad, and sometimes you might not feel like it's fair. That's just life. 🤷‍♂️
  • RogerRoger Posts: 15,402
    Farooq said:

    Scott_xP said:

    TimS said:

    I sort of agree, but sort of don't. This one won't do it, but given the taboo surrounding even uttering the word Brexit despite most of the visions of project fear unfolding before our eyes there needs to be some kind of electoral protest party out there to keep pressure on the opposition.

    The taboo is breaking.

    The Express headline today is "Don't blame Brexit" and I think IDS penned a Telegraph column with the same line

    Pathetic whiny pleading from the architects suggests that they think people are in fact joining the dots...
    I saw that headline in the newsagent this morning, and thought it was a monumental own-goal. Putting "blame" and "Brexit" on a huge headline in the middle of a... shall we call it a distribution crisis?... looks like self trolling.

    Ok, I'm sure the article will set out some arguments, but almost everyone who goes to the papers section isn't buying the Express, so the headline is all they'll see.
    Strange isn't it that a 'Newspaper' like the Express which makes no pretence at being other than a propaganda sheet should break such an elementary rule. Maybe propagandists are suffering recruitment problems like the rest of the country or perhaps they're all working for the Telegraph.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 28,924

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopeless
    Shapps retains his post not because of competence, but rather his willingness to defend the indefensible on camera. Today's job is to piss on the public and tell them that it is just a bit of rain.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,085
    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    It's not entirely rational unless you need the fuel. And if you need the fuel, you'd have been filling up anyway so won't be changing the demand.

    People topping up "just in case" for fuel they won't need for another week or two by which time the stations would be full again are not being logical.
    Well first of all we have no idea about the motives or fuel tank levels of the people buying or trying to buy fuel now. All we know is that there are queues. It is entirely rational for people who fear for their supply of necessary fuel to try to buy it, to queue to buy it, or to drive around trying to find it to buy.

    Because you might not need the fuel today but, as per a couple of PB posters on here, they have a couple of days supply only and they need to make a call as to whether to try to find some now (with a fuller tank so they can drive around trying to find it) or to wait and hope that the crisis will be over by, in one case, this coming Wednesday.

    It is of course also entirely rational for PBers who don't drive to determine that all these people trying buy fuel are irrational "panickers".

    How many miles a week do you drive, Philip?
  • GIN1138 said:

    Good morning PB.

    Tory Scum GIN checking in for duty! :D

    I see it is still being asked of Labour politicians at their conference this morning with both Rachel Reeves and Sadig Khan put on the spot and apparently Starmer avoiding the journalists

    They have announced they will abolish business rates but have not said how they are to recoup the 30 billion lost revenue
  • Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    We regulate the energy market. So we could have instructed Centrica to stop whining about the cost of storage. Especially when the government's own report on post-Brexit energy said that if we quit the EU energy market we will be reliant on storage to mitigate against spot prices.

    Once again they either didn't read the report, or understand the report, or care, or a combination of all of them. And yet people support Beaker because Kermit the Frog.

    Come on Labour. I know we drifted apart. But is this shithousery redux conference the best you can do?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,271
    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!

    https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/

    The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
    What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?

    Hill climbs, time attack. Anything where there isn't a spec. fuel or where there is a spec. fuel but the testing is lax.

    It's good on turbo motors that run a lot of boost and a lot of ignition advance.

    I got beat in a time attack by an Evo V RS with a 2.2 stroker 4G63 running on that stuff. The wild eyed driver reckoned it was putting down 700+whp. He had the look of somebody who was never going to blink again.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 33,024
    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
    Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    You'll be suggesting price-capping next! ;-)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 17,109
    Foxy said:

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    Notwithstanding, they have made that statement this morning seemingly backing up Shapps, who by the way is hopeless
    Shapps retains his post not because of competence, but rather his willingness to defend the indefensible on camera. Today's job is to piss on the public and tell them that it is just a bit of rain.
    You have to wonder why Shapps bothers. Does he really think he will be rewarded if he loyally defends the party line? He must still harbour political ambition. A Shapps in no10 or no11 perhaps? I doubt his whole political career has been building to this moment.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,739
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    +1 - the answer should have been we don't need this capacity long term so we would be happy for it to close in 2030....
  • TimSTimS Posts: 993

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
    Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.
    There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.

    Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.

    Or

    Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.

    It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.

    It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.
    Absolutely right. And it creates an opening (which nobody will take) to make a coherent argument for a renegotiated EU deal involving regulatory alignment and customs union membership.

    My sense from polling is that immigration is a much less salient issue than it was, even when the home office seem to be trying to exploit it, no bonfire of regulations has taken place - we are essentially in dynamic alignment anyway - and nobody now believes that a golden era of transformational trade deals with giants like the US or China is round the corner.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 19,097
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    How many miles a week do you drive?
    Since we retired and with the covid effect, the Mrs P. and I have done about 3,000 miles in total in the past year, across our three cars.
    Not a question directed at you but good to know. :smile:

    I am interested in the weekly mileage of those shouting loudest about there being no fuel shortage.
    There is no fuel shortage in the country. There is a (hopefully temporary) shortage at the pumps, triggered by the media, and then by panic buying. Interesting on the radio just now, the comment that once the 'run' starts, you are being rational to join the panic if you need fuel. This is the argument that @IshmaelZ was running with, and I understand it. I just wish the initial people weren't so selfish.
    Yes as I said, it is entirely rational to join the "panic buying", cf Northern Rock.

    But I am also loving your no shortage "in the country" vs shortage "at the pumps".

    Where, if I may be so bold, and appreciating that several of my friends are sticking red diesel from the farm in their cars, do you buy petrol if not "at the pumps"?
    You can get drums of oxygenated 110RON race fuel delivered from various web sites. It is at least 4 quid/litre though!

    https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-260gt-plus-109ron-99mon-4-8-oxygen/

    The ECU and shitty narrow band lambda sensors on your average shitbox won't be able to keep the combustion stoich though so order with caution.
    What the hell still runs on that stuff, ‘80s historics and drag racers?

    Hill climbs, time attack. Anything where there isn't a spec. fuel or where there is a spec. fuel but the testing is lax.

    It's good on turbo motors that run a lot of boost and a lot of ignition advance.

    I got beat in a time attack by an Evo V RS with a 2.2 stroker 4G63 running on that stuff. The wild eyed driver reckoned it was putting down 700+whp. He had the look of somebody who was never going to blink again.
    Was he sniffing it as well as putting it in the car?
  • DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    Government has been happy to outsource our carbon emissions to other countries.
  • eekeek Posts: 17,739

    MattW said:

    Good morning everybody. I wonder what the PB brains trust would advise. Mrs C and I are on holiday some 350 miles from home. We have, thanks to topping up when we arrived last Thursday, more than enough fuel to get home.
    However, part of the plans for the holiday include a week-long visit to N Wales, starting on Thursday, adding a further 275 or so miles to our trip.

    I am beginning to wonder; should we call off the N Wales leg?

    If there are no implications, I would decide on Wednesday :-) . It may have eased by then.

    On reflection, wasn't @Big_G_NorthWales saying that his boss only drives 165 miles a year?

    So go via Llandudno with a piece of hose, and no one will notice your crime for weeks :smile:
    Good morning

    Indeed my dear lady wife did 165 miles all last year

    My family has not had a problem getting fuel though there have been queues

    I have watched both the BBC and Sky this morning reporting from filling stations and in both cases the supply was not an issue and the queues were less

    Indeed the message from the owners was we have supply and do not panic buy

    Furthermore Sky are reporting the head of the petrol retailers association has said that the whistle blower who revealed fuel shortages, sparking panic buying was 'completely and utterly irresponsible'

    Please @OldKingCole come to beautiful North Wales and maybe even pop into Llandudno and enjoy the promenade and shopping areas
    Is that the same Petrol Retailers Association that has "warned that as many as two-thirds of its membership of nearly 5,500 independent outlets are out of fuel, with the rest of them 'partly dry and running out soon'"?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58701620
    I imagine that every independent has increased prices as much as they can and are happy to encourage panic buying for the extra profits.

    Given the low margins they work on it should be a nice wealth transfer to them from fuckwits.
    Driving out of Leeds on Saturday an EG garage had prices at £1.45 a litre (but sold out) while the BP garage a mile later was £1.38 and still had people filling up
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 15,596
    edited September 2021
    Jonathan said:

    Is it rational or irrational to trust Michael Green Grant Shapps and Boris Johnson?

    How about Sebastian Fox? The nice thing about the Secretary of State for Transport is that he is a walking advert for STV and multi-member constituencies. The idea is that if you dislike Grant Shapps you can go and see Michael Green or Sebastian Fox instead. Its just that he inhabits all three in the same body.

    A bit like Jame McAvoy only less kidnappy.
  • TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ...

    Yawn...
    When things were going sort of OK I would have sympathy with the "yawn" - fighting the last war and all that. Politically though it would be mad for anyone pro-EU not to be making the link again and again and again between the current series of supply chain crises and Brexit. Polls show a majority of the public think Brexit is at least partly to blame for shops running out of items and the shortage of lorry drivers. In reality it's not so much Brexit per-se as the stupidly reductive version of Brexit that got negotiated in a hurry in 2019.

    This is a taste of the medicine the Tories have been excellent at administering to Labour for decades. Take one event, ensure by repetition and incantation that the public blames one party and one party only, and bring it back to the forefront any time that party looks like getting close to power. The winter of discontent did it for all of the 80s and into the early 90s. Then, from 2008 onwards, they happily pinned the entire blame for the global financial crisis on Gordon Brown, reciting the jolly "there's no money left" quote in 2015 and subsequent elections.

    The difference this time of course is that they have had stunning success in scaring Labour off mentioning Brexit, so it's the FBPEs who are doing it, and that is far less effective than if it were the main opposition wielding the stick and beating the government over the head.

    There's enough public disillusionment with the deal out there now that Keir should really be shouting from the rooftops every chance he has "Boris's botched Brexit deal did this", and quoting until hoarse ministers saying "THERE IS NO FUEL SHORTAGE".
    There is no fuel shortage.

    There is a distribution shortage for the fuel we have aplenty.

    A shortage in common with many places around the globe that have, er, not Brexited.

    Shout what you like from the rooftops. The people you need to win over will give a long stare, then turn their backs with a muttered "twat....".
    I keep reading bollocks like this. Which compares and contrasts from the non-shortages being reported across the EEA.

    The cat is now out of the bag. We need them more than they need us. I agree that shouting abuse won't work. Neither frankly will "we did tell you". But "this is a Brexit issue" will sink in until all bar the most obstinate accept that the method our departure has been sub-optimal.

    None of these issues are a result of having left the EU. They are a result of having left the EEA and CU with no idea how stuff works or a plan of what to do next. We aren't going to rejoin. But we may reconnect all of the parallel aligned ports that we arbitrarily chose to sever.
    Yes, this inaccurate conflation of driver with supply shortages in the EU is being repeated across the media, including even on the BBC, and really should have been knocked on the head by now. This is exactly the kind of role Starmer could have been taking, and marrying with a line about "incompetent handling of Brexit", if he hadn't hamstrung himself by backing rather than abstaining on the deal. In a vacuum, myths persist.
    There remains a hardcore absolutist mindset on both sides.

    Brexit is immaculate, please don't blame this (Brexit) crisis on Brexit, its the fault of that truck guy who is a remoaner. And they have a shortage of drivers in Germany so there.

    Or

    Brexit is a catastrofuck, you must have been stupid to vote for it, and when you can't heat your house or put Christmas dinner on the table I will be there to shout abuse at you. And then you will vote Labour.

    It is the *application* of Brexit that is our problem. We quit the energy market and allowed our gas monopoly to cut its losses on gas storage and then wonder why we're at the mercy of spot prices like the advice we ignored warned us we would be. We imprison an airfield full of forrin truckers over Christmas with no food or toilets and then wonder why having told them to fuck off they have fucked off. We demand 3rd party status where we have to do customs and standards checks then wonder why its expensive and slow to import stuff and why our EU customers have switched to someone else.

    It can all be fixed when there is the will to fix it. For now both sets of absolutists are enjoying the chaos. As Transport Secretary Michael Green said yesterday we are lucky to have Brexit as it allows us to fix the lack of EU drivers by issuing visas for them to come here and work.
    I largely agree with you
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 57,784
    edited September 2021
    Mr. Pointer, lights going out in the UK due to performative expressions of virtue while China burns coal galore may make some in the UK feel good about themselves but all they'll achieve in practical turns* is economic flagellation.

    The purpose of energy policy is to keep the lights on. The wind not always blowing is something I've pointed out for quite a while. Sufficient capacity must be maintained to keep energy flowing.


    Edited extra bit: *terms, even
  • TOPPING said:

    Let's revise the numbers again.

    Our apparent shortage: 100,000.

    Of which,

    50,000 residual have had it for years have evidently lived with it.
    25,000 fewer tests Covid.
    25,000 Brexit we got the foreigners to go home.

    Plus all the EU vehicles and drivers that used to be an integral part of the UK's logistics network. Arbitrarily banning cabotage because they don't understand it has made a bad situation worse.

    And again, there are similar shortages of drivers in parts of Europe. It has not created problems like we have here because of the vast labour pool able to work anywhere and fill in the gaps. We don't have access to that hence the unique to the UK problem.
    One of the key benefits of a free market is liquidity- flex in the system to address peaks and troughs in demand. That's so useful that it's overall worth the cost of the dumb stuff that a free market sometimes throws up.

    The current government's current direction has made the GB market less liquid than it used to be. So spikes are more likely to turn into crises. The invisible hand needs some space in which to operate.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 41,085

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    We regulate the energy market. So we could have instructed Centrica to stop whining about the cost of storage. Especially when the government's own report on post-Brexit energy said that if we quit the EU energy market we will be reliant on storage to mitigate against spot prices.

    Once again they either didn't read the report, or understand the report, or care, or a combination of all of them. And yet people support Beaker because Kermit the Frog.

    Come on Labour. I know we drifted apart. But is this shithousery redux conference the best you can do?
    This conference is serving a very useful function. Its reminding people why they thought....nah.
  • FarooqFarooq Posts: 3,713
    DavidL said:

    Sandpit said:

    MattW said:

    Checking up on gas storage facilities, Governments have been giving complacent replies since at least 2009.

    There's an article on ConHome having at go at the then Govt, quoting awkward Commons questions from one Greg Clarke.
    https://www.conservativehome.com/parliament/2009/03/greg-clark-says.html

    At the time our last big Gas Storage location closed in 2017 the Secretary of State for Energy who sat on his Rs and did nothing was one ... Greg Clarke.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Clark

    Yes, gas storage is a legitimate problem. Older facilities weren’t replaced as they reached the end of their life, and governments of all colours allowed Centrica to run down the available storage.

    Now it appears that Mr Putin is happy to conduct an experiment on how much he can restrict the gas supply to Europe, we see the predicable result of higher energy prices.
    The government bowed to pressure from the Green lobby and was reluctant to be seen to committing ourselves to hydrocarbon dependency going forward. Which would be fine, except that we do have that dependency and it is aggravating an international problem in this country. Unless and until we have adequate alternative supplies and storage capacity we need to improve the storage of gas in this country. It is just mad not to.
    If your going to gaslight greens, can you do it when the price isn't quite so high?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 8,271
    TOPPING said:

    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    eek said:

    Scott_xP said:

    We havent mobilised the army.

    Read a newspaper
    Has the army been sent in? The statement is that they will be and that will be may have provisos against it.
    The army gambit probably is to create one day's headline to suggest Johnson is doing something about the fuel crisis.

    BTW is the same set of soldiers concurrently driving ambulances to deal with that other crisis?
    Wouldn't need an HGV licence for the ambulances.

    I do wonder though if the squaddies are happy with being the dogsbody of last resort, rather than training for their day job.
    Change is as good as a rest. I was a prison warder at one point during my career in HMF.
    I was once and briefly OIC catering at Heron. Being sure to observe the time tested military adage of "Never do a shitty job well" I made sure that I made a complete brexit of it and was rapidly relieved.
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