Can anyone explain the weird politics of mask-wearing? – politicalbetting.com

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?

Aren't most of them going to be just, well, old? Long retired. Last drove a lorry in the 1990s.

Farooq said:

MattW said:

Scott_xP said:

Razedabode said:

I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism.

So the fuel crisis has nothing to do with Brexit but we can solve it by reversing Brexit legislation on visas.

What's THAT position called in yoga?

https://twitter.com/Otto_English/status/1441824441143644166

It's called bolleaux, because the loosening of restrictions in a sector in demand are precisely in line with Brexit principles.

But you know that.

It is, and it's my least favourite part of Brexit. The government is a poor arbiter of what industry needs, and having government involved in setting quotas is going to lead to worse economic outcomes.
It's really bad for the market to have the government insert itself in the process. And as ministers come and go, and governments change and change back again, agendas change. Some industries may be favoured one year and not the next. Is that going to encourage investment? It is not.

You're right, a free market solution is a better solution.

Having had some time to think of it I think we should say that anyone on a PAYE salary of £X or higher can very easily get a visa, which is conditional upon them remaining on PAYE above the £X threshold.

Where £X is to be set at an MP's salary.

If you want to bring in someone on PAYE that costs more than an MP then absolutely go ahead, that's the market threshold rate set. But if your job isn't worth at least that, then hire someone here paying whatever is required for the job.

Still have migration through other routes for other reasons, but have that as a "free market" clearing rate.

I knew a couple who about 5 years ago were often getting contacted about going back into teaching, though it had been 6 and 10 years since either had been in that sector, let alone teaching. Can't remember if they were given any particular incentive to do so, but it didn't work.

IshmaelZ said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

RobD said:

Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

Apart from the ones that are not being refilled

How many are of those and your source

There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume

But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.

Ffs.

When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.

Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?

Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.

And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?

Charles said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IshmaelZ said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Daveyboy1961 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

WhisperingOracle said:

I'm not sure that that article can be described as empty-headed. To a certain extent it simply lays out an unsurprising but important fact, that many of the current issues are related to Brexit, and that the British political and media class have merely become nervous of describing that head-on.

If Brexit was the sole cause then that would be different, but it is multi faceted with covid, lost driving tests, older drivers retiring, and the terrible work conditions and pay making it very complex

And let's not forget Europe have a shortage of half a million drivers

There are some who are trying to make this all about Brexit for their own political motives but it is not

We did cover this in quite a lot of detail yesterday, to be fair. Europe are having the same shortages of drivers, but not of supplies, because drivers are more mobile around the EU.

That isn't a politically motivated point, but more the structural difference between being in a single market and free movement area, and not.

Bollocks.

There's no real shortage in this country either, but there's a media-induced panic fuelled by those with an agenda to push. That's it.

Yes Philip, obviously that's why.....

Indeed. Lemmings queueing at the petrol station because of a media-induced panic.

If you are in charge of a panic, you own it. If nobody had panicked at Hillsborough, not one person would have died. So what?

I'm not in charge. But nor is anyone dying.

A bunch of idiots are being stupid. People may be inconvenienced. By this time next week the petrol stations will be pretty much back to normal and the idiots will still be sitting on pretty full tanks.

Thankfully panic buying isn't like Hillsborough. What an absurd suggestion.

Personally I think the solution should be for fuel stations to add 20p a litre to the price of petrol until this hysteria calms down.

Profiteering?

Supply and demand.

What's wrong with profiteering? If people are going to queue up to be idiots then let them pay through the nose for that.

Maybe use that money raised to pay for extra supply runs next week for the people who aren't being idiots?

I don't see why profiteering should be a dirty word in circumstances were people are queueing up throw their money at someone who is in business to make a profit!

Theuniondivvie said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

darkage said:

Farooq said:

darkage said:

Carnyx said:

Farooq said:

darkage said:

Farooq said:

Farooq said:

darkage said:

Northern_Al said:

This mask debate is really boring, so I may as well join in.

For those who don't want to ever wear masks, that's up to them. I rarely wear one. But, for example, my local bakery has a sign on the door politely asking customers to wear a mask (the staff all wear one), so out of respect I put a mask on when buying bread. Similarly, my local bus company has notices asking passengers to wear one, so I oblige on my quite frequent bus journeys.

What's wrong with a bit of common courtesy? If you're asked (politely) to stick a mask on, why not do it - even if you think it's unnecessary? It's not a big deal, and nor is it virtue signaling.

That is basically what I do in real life. I suppose I have an objection though to being asked to do things that I think are completely pointless to pander to people who are essentially mentally ill.

For instance, I was on a train in Scotland over the summer and the woman manning the buffet car was determined to uphold the 2 metre distancing rule. This led to her telling me to wait in the next carriage while she made my coffee, and then she made an announcement over the train PA system that I could come back to the buffet car as my coffee was now ready, much to the amusement (or frustration) of everyone on the train.

I had a little respect left for you (not a lot, but some) until THAT post

I mean... you bought ScotRail coffee? Fucking animal.

It was LNER

I humbly apologise.

In any case the LNER trains follow English law. Even after trundling past Lamberton Toll.

"If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field/ That is for ever England."

I don't think that is quite correct. I think the scottish social distancing rules applied but then changed at Berwick upon Tweed, or something like that. What I would say though, from observation on two different trips around Scotland this summer, is that the Scots were less enthusiastic about the Covid rules than their government.

i can only talk about my corner of Aberdeenshire, but masks are everywhere in the local shop and the two supermarkets I visit.
Everyone I see at the bus stop near my place is masked up getting on and off.
Experiences may differ in the central belt, but I've not been there since all this kicked off, so I wouldn't know.

I guess the good weather helped but I found it to be beautiful part of the world. Cycled from Dundee to Aberdeen along the coastal path. Rolling hills, long sandy beaches, quirky military installations etc. No midges. Mostly free of english tourists. Everyone I met was very friendly.

My son and his wife have just done the NC500 as their delayed honeymoon post there wedding in July in their converted campervan

Weather was mixed but in Applecross the rain lashed down and the wind howled rocking the campervan from side to side and needing ear plugs to go to sleep

Marginally better than a tent, but the scenery was fabulous, they traced his Mother's home in the war in Wick, and fell in love with the 'Heilan Coo's'

The Heilan Coo's what?

https://annemckinnell.com/2018/04/29/heilan-coo-isle-of-skye-scotland/

I see that you've drunk so much Brexiteer Kool-Aid that you've adopted their apostrophe.

'Use an apostrophe +"s" ('s) to show that one person/thing owns or is a member of something.
Amy's ballet class
Lisa's car
Robert's car'

Boris's Brexit catastrophe.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

I wonder how this letter will be worded. 'Your country needs you! It's your civic duty to get back on the road', that sort of thing?

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

another_richard said:

IshmaelZ said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

RobD said:

Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

Apart from the ones that are not being refilled

How many are of those and your source

There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume

But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.

Ffs.

When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.

Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?

Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.

And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?

Some of the daft feckers probably will. They'll even take their lawnmower with them and top that up too.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Mexicanpete said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

Many retired, some now deceased, some posting on PB all day from their Mum's basement.

Oh and by the way, these one million, dead or alive drivers can't just jump into a cab and drive, they need retraining, and their driver CPC will be out of date too. And if they are former tanker drivers is their ADR still current?

I expect out of one million there will be enough to tempt back into the job with the right incentives, and I understand some regulations are to be delayed but that is not my field

And for the avoidance of doubt I have never possessed a HGV licence

Someone has already suggested this includes current driver's and presumably Johnny Foreigner who has already returned to Hungary.

My point was even if ALL of these drivers are willing and able, assuming they haven't driven for a year or two, it will take another year or two to get them all up to the required CPD (continued professional development) training now required to drive a truck.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Government has put a couple of arguments to bed.
There are shortages.
They are a problem.
Thanks for clearing that up then.

IshmaelZ said:

another_richard said:

IshmaelZ said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

another_richard said:

Mexicanpete said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Scott_xP said:

RobD said:

Except, unlike in 2000, the petrol stations are being refilled.

Apart from the ones that are not being refilled

How many are of those and your source

There are only a finite number of tankers and drivers. Drivers hours are also an issue.

It will be physically impossible to restock at the rate you and Philip Thompson assume

But the people filling up today will not be filling up tomorrow and likely not next week either.

So all what happens is some fuel purchases have been brought forward not that the amount being consumed has changed.

Ffs.

When we panic bought in 2000 we all had full tanks too. As a high miler I was left high and dry after a few days. Most who use a tank every three weeks were not inconvenienced past their initial bout of queueing. The same is true today.

No we haven't got a blockade of terminals, but like I keep saying, replenishing empty petrol stations is not without its challenges. Namely the numbers of tankers, drivers and driver's hours available.

I am sure unlike 2000 we will all laugh it off this time and Johnson will increase his polling lead.

Ultimately the amount getting delivered by tankers to the filling stations equals the amount being used by the population.

Now is there any reason to think that either side of the equation has changed ?

Yes, because on average let's say 10% of cars at any given time are only 10% full, 10% are 20% full, 10% 30% full etc. Because of panic buying many of those cars are 100% full. That's where the extra fuel has disappeared to.

How extraordinary not to be able to grasp that point.

And are those people with 100% full tanks going to top up a few more litres tomorrow and then on Monday and then again on Tuesday ?

Jesus.

He goes by donkey.

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

MikeSmithson said:

Razedabode said:

I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

What's gone OK?

Vaccines
Taking back control of our laws
Vaccines
Taking back control of our money
Vaccines
Taking back control of our borders
Vaccines
Taking back control of our courts

And vaccines.

On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.

On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.

Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.

How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?

Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.

So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?

25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.

So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.

Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.

Good point.

https://twitter.com/colken16/status/1441868512973099010?s=21

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.

What data are you expecting? We only had a few weeks post-Brexit before lockdown began.

But the jobs market is reporting full employment and high wages.

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

MikeSmithson said:

Razedabode said:

I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

What's gone OK?

Vaccines
Taking back control of our laws
Vaccines
Taking back control of our money
Vaccines
Taking back control of our borders
Vaccines
Taking back control of our courts

And vaccines.

On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.

On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.

Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.

How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?

Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.

So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?

25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.

So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.

Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.

And there are no strawberries in the shops.

Except there is.

And ASDA has a 25% off six bottles of wine offer (not in Scotland).

The world is not ending no matter how many tweets saying it is are pasted here.

After tonight's uncouth and appalling comments from Rayner at the Labour fringe in my mind she would be even worse than Corbyn, at least Corbyn had some manners.

https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1441859834605879299?s=20

If she ever becomes Labour leader stick a fork in it, it will be done

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Charles said:

MikeSmithson said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

williamglenn said:

SandyRentool said:

ydoethur said:

Foxy said:

Ms Rayner dealing with a heckler:

"Angela Rayner amongst a home crowd at the NW reception is heckled by someone who shouts “I think you can challenge him” and she replies: “I think you’ve had all the wine I’ve not had. I have wine envy, mate, but I’ll catch up.” https://t.co/lqf0QJfGud"

Wine? That will destroy her image among working class northern beer drinkers…

She's just lost my vote.

She’s trying to win it back:

BREAKING: Angela Rayner says Downing Street are “racist”, “homophobic” Tory “scum”

https://twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1441858905294966789

Sigh....do Labour actually want to win? Just screaming racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, etc, isn't going to win any new fans.

You are the one making the sexists comments. Rayner seems to bring out the worst in PB Tories which is probably why she would be a good leader.

Which of @FrancisUrquhart ’s comments is sexist? Men can scream too.

Gordon Brown waves....

I honestly have no idea what Mike was on about.

On topic. My belief, stated before, is that masks benefit in certain use cases and not others.

Let's set 100 as the index value for giving yourself the maximum chance of catching COVID off another individual. That's not necessarily a 100% chance of catching it, merely the point beyond which if you were going to catch it you would have.

A curve with a mask and a curve without track one another with an ellipsis in between - if you pass by someone for minute in a supermarket, the masked value could be 0.1 vs 0.12 unmasked - i.e. before the ellipsis opens. If you sit in a small closed room talking with someone for hours, the masked value could be 99.5 vs 99.9 unmasked - i.e. after the ellipsis closes.

Sitting on crowded benches for an hour braying loudly at PMQs, that's somewhere in the middle of the open ellipsis, for arguments sake. 20 masked vs 40 unmasked.

My numbers are demonstrative only, but an ellipsis is exactly the behaviour I'd expect to
see at a qualitative level for this kind of comparison. And PMQs is exactly in the contract level range I'd expect to be the correct use case for masks.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

UD Usyk.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

£15bn to be found by Joe Public.

28m households in the UK

That would be £530 average per household.

Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.

HYUFD said:

After tonight's uncouth and appalling comments from Rayner at the Labour fringe in my mind she would be even worse than Corbyn, at least Corbyn had some manners.

https://twitter.com/mikeysmith/status/1441859834605879299?s=20

If she ever becomes Labour leader stick a fork in it, it will be done

What, you mean you wouldn't vote Labour if Rayner was leader? I'm shocked, I tell you.

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

UD Usyk.

Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

another_richard said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

noneoftheabove said:

Philip_Thompson said:

MikeSmithson said:

Razedabode said:

I’m a tad sick and tired of people seeing everything through the brexit prism. Things go wrong - blame brexit and brexiters. Things go ok - brexiters say “told you so”. Round and round we go

What's gone OK?

Vaccines
Taking back control of our laws
Vaccines
Taking back control of our money
Vaccines
Taking back control of our borders
Vaccines
Taking back control of our courts

And vaccines.

On money, they are taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired.
On borders, we sent all the foreign drivers away and now hope they come back. And are in a losing spat with France over the channel.
On courts, we don't fund them properly so they have massive delays, which then reduces our ability to deal with borders, along with delayed, frustrated and cancelled justice.

If you think this is taking back control it shows you live in a world of slogans and soundbites rather than reality.

On money we get the government's we elect now. I oppose the tax regime of our government and if an opposition party comes up with better policies I can vote for it - that wasn't the case pre-Brexit for money spent by the EU.

On borders - we do not "hope" they come back. We can now control the quantity of visas offered which can go to whoever meets the specs from anywhere on the planet equally and not simply say [predominantly white] Europeans are OK regardless but f**k everyone else.

On courts - again if you don't like it, you can elect a different government.

Taking back control doesn't mean we get good governance. It just means we get the government we elect.

Well I must admit I much preferred and valued the generally good governance we had from 1990-2015 to the shambles which we have had since we have "taken back control" and divided the country.

How is your first complaint of 'taxing the poor workers to pay for the rich retired' different to the taxation and pensions strategy governments followed from 1990 to 2015 ?

Back in 1990 the share of wealth owned by pensioners was far less than it is now. Increasing the state pension more quickly than wages at that time was a good policy, now it is not.

So was triple locking pensions at the same time as tripling student fees 'good policy' as well ?

Was there a point where pandering to oldies - increased NHS spending being another example - stopped being 'good policy' ?

Or did it just happen when the politicians doing it became those you didn't approve of ?

25 years of policies is a lot to go through and of course plenty I didnt like over that time, especially the sustained QE environment at the end of that period that rewarded assets over work. In favour of NHS spending increases, dont mind some graduate contribution but not anything like 9k per year.

So what's the difference between Blair/Brown increasing national insurance to fund the NHS and Boris/Sunak doing the same twenty years later ?

Okay you can say that oldies now are richer and more numerous but the principle of national insurance should increase to pay for the NHS was set in 2001,

Likewise the triple locking of pensions in 2010 set the principle that oldies must never lose out.

And with the oldies becoming more numerous it gets harder each year to change those principles.

Oldies being richer and more numerous is pretty damn central to the issue. Always been against the triple lock. At the time of new Labour increasing NI I doubt I was aware the retired were exempt, but was in favour of merging NI and tax for simplicity and transparency.

Of course I don't agree with every policy over 25 years, but I don't think any of those governments would have planned over several years to get tens of thousands of lorry to leave the country, not invest in training new drivers to replace them in advance, cancel HGV tests whilst allowing Uber rides, not extend expiring licenses, have DVLA on strike, then invite the exiled lorry drivers back after we run out of fuel.

There is a big difference between utter incompetence, and the government doing something I or others disagree with.

And there are no strawberries in the shops.

Except there is.

And ASDA has a 25% off six bottles of wine offer (not in Scotland).

The world is not ending no matter how many tweets saying it is are pasted here.

I have never said the world is ending or anything about wine or strawberries?? I am saying this government is particularly incompetent compared to its predecessors.

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

UD Usyk.

Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.

My post today at 1.58pm.

Oh. This might change things...

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

£15bn to be found by Joe Public.

28m households in the UK

That would be £530 average per household.

Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.

Why would all the money have to be found by Joe Public? Not all goods getting moved end up bought and paid for by Joe Public.

UK GDP is £1.96 trillion per annum. Using your logic that is all goes to UK households, that's an average of £70,000 per household. I don't think the average household is on £70,000 do you?

We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

rottenborough said:

Oh. This might change things...

There already has been suggestions that Rishi will address this in his budget and I expect he will

kle4 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

If there's a million people with HGV licences who aren't driving HGVs the job must either have been really crap and/or poorly paid before, since that is a lot of people to move on and find better jobs organically.

There are a supprising number of people who hold HGV licences but who don't drive them commercialy. I worked for 5 years with a bloke with one, my current boss (till the end of next week, then I'm my own boss!) has one.

In a previous era, they would have taken the odd casual shift at the current rates (apparently you can currently get £35-40 an hour for odd shifts right now), but (and this is one of the reasons for the current crisis) they don't hold the utterly pointless CPC, or have digital taco cards.

The hassle and pointlessness of the CPC meant a lot of license holders who only drove occasionally didn't bother. Same with having to apply for a digital taco card, rather than just writing your name on a paper taco disk. So there is now a fairly large pool of people who still hold a HGV licenses, but who can't drive commercially.

One of the easy wins for the government would be to bin the CPC requirement - I'm quite surprised they chose to abolish trailer tests for small vehicles as the first move instead (sensible, but unlikely to have much effect on the HGV crisis).

Philip_Thompson said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

UD Usyk.

Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.

I presume he'll be entitled to a rematch, again?

Does seem a really weird system, boxing.

Yes, rematch clause. So that's another 12 months, then same result again....

In meantime, Fury beats up Wilder again. And then nobody to fight for another 18 months.

Andy_JS said:

Jonathan said:

The government have definitely fucked up. The only question is how much.

Johnson will have to go if he can't sort out this petrol problem pretty quickly.

And there you have the reason so many Remainers - including a leader from OGH - have determinedly been making a crisis out of not even a molehill.....

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Or multiple letters to each license holder

NickPalmer said:

another_richard said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Before this crisis and I looked, if somebody told me lorry drivers can earn as little as £25-30k a year, I would have thought they were having a giraffe. For a job that requires serious training and responsibly, it seems completely out of whack with what you can earn doing a similar skilled blue collar job with far less anti-social hours e.g. any sort of properly qualified tradesman can earn more than that.

I'm somewhat baffled/amused by the breathless reports that Tesco offers a £1k signing on bonus for new HGV drivers.

I mean a thousand quid, its not luxury cruise / deposit on a house sort of money is it.

? You often write from the viewpoint of a down-to-earth northerner with a scornful view of effete London intellectuals, but I know a LOT of people who would regard £1000 as a godsend.

Sure as a windfall gain. But to take a really anti social job with terrible conditions, paid over several months?

Northern_Al said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.

Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.

Stupendously tempting for a Bulgarian or Romanian, and stupendously tempting for a Brit, are too wildly different things.

Which is something dodgy businesses have been able to exploit for years. Now they're terrified that's come to an end.

Stuart Rose was right. Its time to pay a decent salary for a decent day's work.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

£15bn to be found by Joe Public.

28m households in the UK

That would be £530 average per household.

Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.

Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer

Great, the retired will do well.

https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/

I am most certainly not one

Really?

I'm a zillionaire even tho I am fully self made and not even 65 yet 👍

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Northern_Al said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.

Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.

It is worldwide not just the EU but I assume the key will be the salary and bonuses

Did I mention the EU? No. You're obsessed, Big G, with the EU and Brexit.

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Ahha, we're back on your sujet du jour, Brexit and wages.
You've never answered why you think Brexit has raised low-wage earnings. We had a fruitful discussion earlier on it and the data is simply not there. So you're making it up.
So I'm not asking you any more, I'm just going to say it: you're wrong. Feel free to come up with some data that says otherwise.

I doubt there is data yet given it was so recent (plus you may have heard about this pandemic thing).

But there is plenty of anecdotal evidence - eg lorry drivers; in my industry we’ve just pushed through a 25% rise for mid ranking staff

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TOPPING said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Usyk too good.

We are never getting Fury vs Joshua in their prime.

Why should we? AJ isn't up to the big moment.

UD Usyk.

Well clear now he isn't. You could say Ruiz might have been a one off, but Usyk took him apart there.

I presume he'll be entitled to a rematch, again?

Does seem a really weird system, boxing.

Yes, rematch clause. So that's another 12 months, then same result again....

In meantime, Fury beats up Wilder again. And then nobody to fight for another 18 months.

Joshua is really good. He's one of my favourites. But he's not a great fighter.

Joshua v Fury is never going to happen unfortunately.

HYUFD said:

dixiedean said:

We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population who are neither sick nor disabled is unemployed.

Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax

The oldies did not pay in NI all their working lives, that's just not true. Not at today's rates of NI.

dixiedean said:

HYUFD said:

dixiedean said:

We have full employment. We have shortages in certain professions. Absent immigration there is one solution. Get the oldies to work for their benefits.

We don't, 4.7% of the UK working age population is unemployed.

Plus the oldies paid in NI all their working lives and still pay in income tax

Suggest you check out the definition of full employment. It varies, but most economists would agree it is at or near it now.

It isn't, 4% of the working age population who are neither sick nor disabled are not in work but seeking it. It would need to be near 0% of that group for there really to be full employment.

Pensioners are generally excluded as the vast majority of them are not actively seeking work

Northern_Al said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.

Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.

Particularly if they had been told to eff off bare months ago.
Otoh BJ will have much practice in wheedling his way back into the trust of people he’s shafted.

WhisperingOracle said:

Philip_Thompson said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Philip_Thompson said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas aren't anywhere near enough, tonight.

If that's correct, both the government, and our infrastructure, could be in deep trouble.

Mandy Rice-Davies Applies.

They want a blank cheque to bring over cheap labour at minimal cost.

The government would be better off saying 100,000 visas at PAYE of £100,000 each. If people can't find anyone willing to work at that price in the UK then absolutely bring as many as required in from abroad. But no more pissing around with £26,000 + £1,000 sign on bonus.

Their statements tonight, and from the various EU hauliers, seem to be more along the lines that many EU drivers just may not come. The government may become so desperate that they may even try some of the kind of wildly experimental inducements you're describing.

I'm amused how so many people find "supply and demand" and "pay the market rate" to be a wild experiment.

The overall context is that leaving a single market and free movement area, built into the fabric of our infrastructure, and after a period of decades, could quite reasonably be described as wildly experimental, so that other policies need to catch up with that.

The context was "wildly experimental inducements".

Was leaving Brexit an inducement? Paying the market rate is an inducement, but its neither wild nor experimental - its just something employer's haven't had to do for years as Rose knew so now they're shocked at what the market rate for certain jobs are.

The people working those jobs are less shocked and are vindicated in how they voted though.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

£15bn to be found by Joe Public.

28m households in the UK

That would be £530 average per household.

Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.

Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer

Great, the retired will do well.

https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/

So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it

Northern_Al said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Mexicanpete said:

dixiedean said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

How many are licensed to drive fuel tankers?

None, without further training unless their ADR training is still current.

The letters are an absolute smoke screen. Many on here have bought it though.

The various industry bodies seem to be saying the 5,000 visas are nowhere near enough, tonight.

If that's correct, both the government, and more importantly our national infrastructure, may be in some genuinely serious trouble.

Regardless of the merits of the scheme, will they get the 5,000 HGV drivers (and apparently 5,500 "poultry workers")?

If I were an HGV driver, or indeed a turkey plucker, in, say, Bulgaria, would I really be tempted to come over to the UK, in winter, on a three month visa, with all the disruption that would entail? I don't think so, unless the money was stupendously tempting.

That's the other concerning aspect tonight. Some of the EU hauliers' bodies seem to be saying the drivers are going to be hard to persuade.

HYUFD said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

noneoftheabove said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sky

Quite a raft of measures to be announced to address the fuel crisis including letters to one million former drivers with HGV licences with incentives including higher wages and conditions

Boris to announce he wants higher pay for the sector

Also visa quota scheme to allow 5,500 agricultural workers to held the agricultural industry deal with Christmas

One million former drivers with HGV licences. One million.

One fucking million.

You hear that @RochdalePioneers one million.

All week we've been told 300,000 and the real figure is 1,300,000.

You want to fill the vacancies in the sector then there is a simple fix: pay them more. Now stop pratting around.

I was astonished when Jon Craig of Sky announced the figure

I had to wind it back to be sure

From the FT

"Nearly a million letters will be sent out to all drivers who hold an HGV driving licence, encouraging them to return to the industry."

So the nearly a million number is all HGV licence holders presumably including those working as an HGV driver. Not sure how DVLA would be able to exclude them.

Probably but out of a million there must be a considerable number who will come back if the pay and bonuses are enhanced

It depends. If you do what PT says and double HGV drivers pay yes some will come back. But then each household will need to pay on average about £400 extra a year to fund that, which many do not have, even before cutting UC, fuel and tax increases. It is just shifting from one big problem to another big problem.

Or we can have immigration, which is where we started from and will also be the endpoint.

I am not sure of your maths but no way should we go back down the road of cheap foreign labour at the expense of British wages

Lots of ways to get there or thereabouts. Lets take the average as £30k and double to £60k (still too low vs an MP which seems to be PT's yardstick for some random reason).

300k existing drivers get an extra £30k = £12bn
Lets say we get 50k new drivers get an extra £60k = £3bn

£15bn to be found by Joe Public.

28m households in the UK

That would be £530 average per household.

Add electricity and UC cuts and there will be millions in debt very quickly.

The idea we can pay everyone MP salaries if it wasnt for immigrants is a very weird fantasy. We dont earn anything like enough to do that.

Extra tax and NI on 15 billion is a lot to the exchequer

Great, the retired will do well.

https://fullfact.org/economy/millionaire-pensioners/

So will their children and grandchildren who inherit it

They will be close to retirement when they inherit!

It used to be vote Tory, work hard and we will give you opportunity.

Somehow that has morphed into, vote Tory, wait a long time for your parents to die.