All polls now have CON leads: LAB’s brief moment in the Sun is over – politicalbetting.com

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

FrancisUrquhart said:

BlancheLivermore said:

turbotubbs said:

What’s wrong with the score?

If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4

Lots of extras?

BlancheLivermore said:

turbotubbs said:

What’s wrong with the score?

If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4

Mexicanpete said:

IshmaelZ said:

Casino_Royale said:

Gardenwalker said:

another_richard said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

I just worked out the ambassador thing


The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.

The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.

The PB elite?

It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.

Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?

How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?

Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?

I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)

Yet the lack of pleasure about rising wages among the low paid from those who claim to be concerned about them is noticeable.

Instead the mentality of 'we need more low skilled immigrants to keep the wages down' appears widespread.

This meme has become holy writ among the more retarded (ie all of them) Brexiters.

Can’t we have one day off from it? It’s a Sunday after all.

Funny how you want a day off when you're on the back foot.

Red Letter day for the Raj, is it?

Please outline the principal provisions of the AUKUS deal. Just bullet points is fine.

a) It created a fantastic domestic headline in both Australia and the UK.

b) It annoyed the French.

c) It annoyed the Chinese.

dixiedean said:

David Moyes football genius.

MattW said:

JosiasJessop said:

MattW said:

JosiasJessop said:

IshmaelZ said:

JosiasJessop said:

IshmaelZ said:

JosiasJessop said:

IshmaelZ said:

pigeon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

On a serious note listening to Marr interview with Ed Davey on trans issues, which I admit I do not normally comment on, it does seem this issue is going to cause considerable controversy for them and also Labour with Rosie Duffield scared of attending their conference.

It's also very dangerous for the Lib Dems. They might be able to cause an upset in the shires in a protest vote by-election, but if they end up looking like Yellow Labour come the next GE then how far are they actually going to get in flipping Tory seats into their column? Not very, one would imagine.

It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights, but I would not in a million years vote for a party which buys the present pro trans activist nonsense. And I am a floating ex tory voter who has voted LD in the past (and for a successful LD candidate, so not just a protest vote). Davey has scuppered himself just when I was beginning to like him.

The problem is the loudmouth idiots on either side. The so-called 'pro-trans' people who seem more interested in arguing more than helping the interests of trans people; the anti-pro-trans people who seem just to want a good barney with the other side and make out that trans people are a threat to women.

And in the middle the trans people suffer, and their interests get forgotten.

Some (few) trans people are a very serious threat to women, and they are the edge cases that the pro trans tend to focus on. This really isn't a symmetrical situation, because there is exactly one right answer, which coincides as usual with my own views, and that is: trans is fine, we just need some boring but necessary regs to cover the special cases of sport, loos, hospitals and prisons, and some law about children making irreversible decisions they later regret. There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them.

I'm unsure if you meant 'pro trans' in your first sentence, or 'anti trans'? But the issue there is that some people are a very serious threat to women, and I haven't seen much evidence that trans people contain a higher proportion. And even if they did, that's not enough reason to castigate all trans people. I certainly don't think any of the ones I've known have been a threat to women.

Indeed, there is a tendency to talk of the threat some trans people are to women, e.g. in jail, and then ignore the much greater threats trans people suffer. I posted figures the other day for the number of assaults on trans people in prison, and it's far greater than the other way.

Take a statement like: "trans people should not use women's spaces." That probably gets nods of agreement from many. Yet to fully transition and have the op, you need to live as a woman for a period - a year or two. This means a pre-op trans person has to use the facilities of their new gender. There are obvious very real issues in them not doing this.

"There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them."
You don't read the right (wrong) places, obviously. And the sad thing is some of the pro-trans people can seem just as nasty.

Neither, I meant men who identify as women - i.e. people who do it rather than have a pro or anti view on it. Your "only a tiny minority" argument is like the NRA on guns: sometimes the edge cases are so bad you have to legislate for them no matter how numerically insignificant they are. If it makes the argument more palatable I am probably talking in the main about 100% cis men who pretend to be trans for nefarious ends. Like dear old Karen

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life

Yep, people obsessing with that case again. Unfortunately most of the violence appears to go the other way:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

That's not the other way.

That's male prisoners assaulting Transgender Identified Men in a male prison.

Which is not "the other way" to Transgender Identified Men assaulting Women in a woman's prison.

Perhaps we need to be looking at some units for "self-identified but not surgically altered" prisoners within larger prisons.

@IshmaelZ

'Women commit assault too' *is* a valid argument (see child abuse numbers, for example), but I agree not in this context.

It is the other way. One is the threat others face from trans people. The other way is the threat trans people face from others. And it appears from the figures that the latter is much higher than the former, in prisons at least.

That's a category error.

I don't think you can conflate men and women in this context.

MarqueeMark said:

Farooq said:

MarqueeMark said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

felix said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

Leon said:

I just worked out the ambassador thing


The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.

The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.

The PB elite?

It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.

Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?

How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?

Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?

I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)

But "a section of the liberal left elite" who keep proposing the same remedy to the nation's ills - namely, piling unsustainable levels of tax and borrowing onto the shoulders of the private sector to the benefit of the public sector - is wilfully NOT wanting the best for the British people. It is looking out for a narrow section of its own self-interest, whilst ignoring that every time they implement it, the economy goes tits up. And the poorest inevitably suffer the most.

At what point is it safe to heap moral opprobrium on them for that?

This is confusing. Are people who work in the public sector the "elite"? How are you "liberal" and "left" at the same time?
Is the huge borrowing undertaken by the Conservative government part of this left-liberal ruination of the economy, and if not, why not?

Those who work in the public sector have been the elite during the Covid crisis for sure. They have kept their pay (often having massive overtime too), kept their pensions, kept their career progression. It was very largely the private sector that got done over.

This Conservative government took the hard decision to support the workers in the private sector until they were better able to weather the economic storm. That storm has taken longer to abate than might have been expected, but the government stood by that pledge. It has borrowed vast amounts of money in order to do so. The difference is that if had elected a Corbyn government in 2017 or 2019, then by the time Covid hit, the headroom to borrow for furlough would have already gone - to the public sector.

So it is still quite easy to square the circle. This Government - absent a once in a century public health disaster - would prefer to have a smaller state - and consequently, lower taxation. But part of the fall-out of that health disaster has been the now impossible-to-defer need to confront the provision of social care. That has required a rise in taxation. Nobody has come up with an alternative route. Certainly not HM Opposition.

But when it comes to the next set of manifestos, the Labour Party will again propose more taxation and borrowing than can ever be endured by the private sector. And the Conservative Party will oppose that.

CarlottaVance said:

Fishing said:

The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit

felix said:

MaxPB said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

Every word typed of that piece must have been like a dagger to the heart of the writer.

It wasn't supposed to happen this way. The EU assured the world that the UK would be sidelined and turned into a backwater.

That would be the same EU whining about not being consulted on this or, to coin a phrase, 'sidelined'?

Casino_Royale said:

I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

BlancheLivermore said:

turbotubbs said:

BlancheLivermore said:

turbotubbs said:

What’s wrong with the score?

If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4

Wides, no balls and leg byes? The standard looks terrible.

The balls played still ought to add up. I'd guess they weren't actually using the computer score system, and just happened to have the video recording

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

CarlottaVance said:

Fishing said:

The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit

Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.

I'm told it's an enriching experience.

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

FrancisUrquhart said:

Ronaldo....4 goals in 3 games...do you reckon he has a tally chart of him vs messi hung up in his house as a bit of a motivator?

Theuniondivvie said:

Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

Stark_Dawning said:

The nightmare scenario now for Boris is that a humiliated Macron

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

Theuniondivvie said:

Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?

rottenborough said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

Is that like their prediction that this summer would be carnage after July 19th or like the one that schools reopening last spring would kill us all?

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.

turbotubbs said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

“Listen to me. Listen to me! LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME IM REALLY IMPORTANT! WHY WONT YOU LISTEN TO ME...”

MaxPB said:

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

That's what you're now left hoping for, Trump to be re-elected. What a sad turn of events.

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.

By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.

When I think of Johnson's government and Macbeth, I just hope my remarks Birnam.

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

DavidL said:

ydoethur said:

rottenborough said:

I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.

By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.

When I think of Johnson's government and Macbeth, I just hope my remarks Birnam.

You clearly dunsinane better. (works better with a Scottish accent, honest).

FrancisUrquhart said:

“I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?

malcolmg said:

kinabalu said:

Casino_Royale said:

I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

There's nothing meaningless or empty about Australia ditching France in favour of the US as their counterparty on a massive arms deal. As for the Aukus wrapper Britain WAS needed for that. We add value to the look & feel of the package and we get value back ourselves. It's great optics for the Johnson government, cost-free promo for post-Brexit Global Britain, a genuine political achievement.

Unless this provisional take is wrong and when we know more it turns out the Aukus angle isn't just presentational spin and what we have here is the platform for a new and substantive Anglo alliance against China in the Pacific in which we'll be a serious player, second only to America. In which case it's even less meaningless and empty. It's a mistake, imo, but not meaningless and empty.

At best they will be US lapdog lickspittles as usual. French will ensure the EU put the boot in somewhere and the morons on here will not be so smug.

FrancisUrquhart said:

“I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

FrancisUrquhart said:

29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

dixiedean said:

David Moyes football genius.

Stark_Dawning said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

Have I read that properly

You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

Really

That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it

No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.

CarlottaVance said:

Labour is heading for an internal bloodletting on the question of whether or not an MP should be disciplined for stating the biological truth that only women have cervixes. That the party of Hardie, Lansbury, Attlee, Bevin, Gaitskell, Castle and Benn should have come to this.

https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1439591885748805638?s=20

RochdalePioneers said:

Good speech by Ed Davey. Attack the Blue Wall. Foreign Aid cut morally wrong. Lets empower parents by giving part of the covid education recovery fund to them to spend on education as they see fit.

MaxPB said:

Farooq said:

MaxPB said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gardenwalker said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

The Brexit thing is overdone by “commentators” on here. There’s no direct Brexit angle.

The key question is why is the US willing to humiliate France, a key ally, “live via satellite”?

By all means, Australia, cancel what looks to have been an awful deal, but it’s the *way* this has played out which is such a kick up the arse to France.

France, and hence the EU, will take the message that the US cannot be relied on.

I think the key takeaway here is the opposite. The US has lost patience with the EU being hamstrung by Germany's foreign policy objectives. France is being asked the question of whether or not they are serious about containing China in APAC. Once the noise goes away I wouldn't be surprised if tentative moves to get the French into some associate membership position aren't made.

The point if this partnership is to jettison those slow moving countries like Germany who hold back a much tougher western response to Chinese aggression. The internal EU squabbling is something we know frustrated us when we were in it trying to target Russia with sanctions or trying to get an EU-wide policy on Huawei. To an outsider like the US the process must seem interminable and with their major military power now not in the EU, they have no reason to care about it.

Why is it in France’s interests to “contain” China?

If this is the USA forcing France to pick sides, it’s a very humiliating way to go about it.

It is in everyone's interest to contain China

Why? Is China a material threat to France?
In fact, China and Europe need each other.

And that is the problem

The issue is that for many they do not comprehend the concerns in the Trans Pacific about China and their need to deter Chinese aggression that could destabilise the whole vast area.

There is also a need to compete with China commercially and an expanded CPTPP including the UK and possibly the US would go a long way to providing such a market place.

I know you are a Kiwi and of course NZ has embraced China and banned Australian nuclear subs from her waters

Like Europe, NZ will have a choice to make herself in the years ahead

This has been asked before, but I still haven't seen a clear answer... what is the nature of this Chinese aggression?
We can agree that China is a threat to Taiwan, but is there anything beyond that?
I have this vague idea that America is a bigger threat to third countries than China, based on recent history. Can someone explain why I'm wrong about that?

And please note, I am not in any way saying China is better. Yes the internal repression in China is criminal and deeply wrong. I'm asking about external aggression.

The threat is not just Taiwan but the South China Sea which is a vital sea route and coincidental one which I partly sailed across from South Korea to China

I think a lot of the misunderstanding in all of this is that little attention is given in this country to anywhere beyond Europe, when in fact it is a small region when compared to the one that this threat is perceived as very real

Please see my response to Carlotta on the same matter. I'm afraid my question remains.

How about this one - it's the right thing to do.

To take a stance against countries that undertake incursions into other countries' territories? You could be right, but my question is why single out China is that respect? The USA does the same (possibly to a far greater extent), but the idea of forming an alliance against America would be risible. What makes the difference?

America is (still) a democratic nation. China is a fascistic one.

OnlyLivingBoy said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

Farooq said:

CarlottaVance said:

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gardenwalker said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Gardenwalker said:

MaxPB said:

Gardenwalker said:

The Brexit thing is overdone by “commentators” on here. There’s no direct Brexit angle.

The key question is why is the US willing to humiliate France, a key ally, “live via satellite”?

By all means, Australia, cancel what looks to have been an awful deal, but it’s the *way* this has played out which is such a kick up the arse to France.

France, and hence the EU, will take the message that the US cannot be relied on.

I think the key takeaway here is the opposite. The US has lost patience with the EU being hamstrung by Germany's foreign policy objectives. France is being asked the question of whether or not they are serious about containing China in APAC. Once the noise goes away I wouldn't be surprised if tentative moves to get the French into some associate membership position aren't made.

The point if this partnership is to jettison those slow moving countries like Germany who hold back a much tougher western response to Chinese aggression. The internal EU squabbling is something we know frustrated us when we were in it trying to target Russia with sanctions or trying to get an EU-wide policy on Huawei. To an outsider like the US the process must seem interminable and with their major military power now not in the EU, they have no reason to care about it.

Why is it in France’s interests to “contain” China?

If this is the USA forcing France to pick sides, it’s a very humiliating way to go about it.

It is in everyone's interest to contain China

Why? Is China a material threat to France?
In fact, China and Europe need each other.

And that is the problem

The issue is that for many they do not comprehend the concerns in the Trans Pacific about China and their need to deter Chinese aggression that could destabilise the whole vast area.

There is also a need to compete with China commercially and an expanded CPTPP including the UK and possibly the US would go a long way to providing such a market place.

I know you are a Kiwi and of course NZ has embraced China and banned Australian nuclear subs from her waters

Like Europe, NZ will have a choice to make herself in the years ahead

This has been asked before, but I still haven't seen a clear answer... what is the nature of this Chinese aggression?
We can agree that China is a threat to Taiwan, but is there anything beyond that?
I have this vague idea that America is a bigger threat to third countries than China, based on recent history. Can someone explain why I'm wrong about that?

And please note, I am not in any way saying China is better. Yes the internal repression in China is criminal and deeply wrong. I'm asking about external aggression.

South China Seas - they've set off an arms race:

https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Indo-Pacific/Indonesia-looks-to-triple-submarine-fleet-after-Chinese-incursions

I've restored my full post to your quote because the other bits are directly relevant.
Chinese incursions in the South China Seas, ok, yes. It's pretty normal for large powers to do this. Russia is well known in recent years for putting planes and subs in other countries' territory. America undertakes military operations in foreign territory without permission a lot.

So your example is a fine one, but doesn't really go any distance to answering my question.

From my perspective, China is a threat on three key grounds:

1. It’s ideology is (or should be) anathema to liberal democracies.

2. It claims ownership of the South China Sea (in opposition to the claims of its neighbours) which is a critical route for global trade, and is increasingly arming up to support incursions etc.

3. It attempts to silence and/or buy-off various actors around the world in support of (1) and (2).

Since the rise of Xi - who is effectively now leader for life - it has ramped up the aggressive rhetoric and behaviour and seems increasingly willing to disturb the global order instead of maintaining it.

It has also corrupted international organisations like the WHO, WTO and now World Bank from the latest news. It is a malign influence and it has been waging a cold war against the democratic world.

What’s the World Bank thing?

Same old thing, bribery, they bribed people in the World Bank to boost China's statistics, or at least not downgrade them. I'll see if I can dig up the article at some point, but it's also pizza day in casa MaxPB and I'm head pizzaiolo.

No pineapple, one hopes.

No pineapple, no sweetcorn, no chicken, no BBQ sauce. 😄

Swetcorn on pizza is a far greater crime than pineapple IMHO. pineapple has a tangy, juicy quality that works quite nicely with the cheese - not something the purists will agree with but it can be quite tasty, especially if paired with something spicy. Sweetcorn on the other hand brings nothing to the table, no flavour, carb-heavy and a cloying sweetness. When I worked in a (not at all authentic) pizza restaurant the chicken and sweetcorn pizza was always popular with a certain kind of bland, forgettable, customer, too. Ham and pineapple attracted a more varied crowd.

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

Have I read that properly

You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

Really

That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it

No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.

You suggest it and I am so very surprised

Deliberate misinterpretation from you. Not your most dignified moment.

Farooq said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Stark_Dawning said:

malcolmg said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sandpit said:

CarlottaVance said:

NYT:

LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.

I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....

They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF

I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.

Have I read that properly

You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

Really

That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it

No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.

You suggest it and I am so very surprised

Deliberate misinterpretation from you. Not your most dignified moment.

Farooq said:

SandyRentool said:

There's a new thread but I can't post on it.

Same. I'll post my comment here instead:

It's tedious that everything comes back to Brexit. We need to find better ways to talk about politics that don't always involve that fucking referendum, or we are going to get nowhere.

That means you, Scott_xp, that means you Casino_Royale, that means you, Big_G_Northwales, that means you Mike_Smithson.

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

BlancheLivermore said:

DavidL said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.

This'll be confusing for Malc - you're admitting having been at the trough, but you're not a Westminster politician.. disnae compute

It's ok, I am a Tory. Malc can always come to terms with Tories being at the trough, no matter where they live.

Bizarre conversation , I know Tories will always be head deep in the trough if not immersed totally. Not sure how that conflates with covid deaths though.