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All polls now have CON leads: LAB’s brief moment in the Sun is over – politicalbetting.com

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,579
    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    You have to remember New York Times journalists entire exposure to the UK is staying in London and speaking to Guardian and BBC employees.
  • What’s wrong with the score?

    If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4
    Lots of extras?
    And 13 missing balls
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409
    edited September 2021
    This Government - absent a once in a century public health disaster - would prefer to have a smaller state

    Are you convinced of that? It isn't what they say or do.
    Nor indeed what they implied in their campaign.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    What’s wrong with the score?

    If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4
    Lots of wides and no balls…?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    pigeon said:

    On a serious note listening to Marr interview with Ed Davey on trans issues, which I admit I do not normally comment on, it does seem this issue is going to cause considerable controversy for them and also Labour with Rosie Duffield scared of attending their conference.

    It's also very dangerous for the Lib Dems. They might be able to cause an upset in the shires in a protest vote by-election, but if they end up looking like Yellow Labour come the next GE then how far are they actually going to get in flipping Tory seats into their column? Not very, one would imagine.
    It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights, but I would not in a million years vote for a party which buys the present pro trans activist nonsense. And I am a floating ex tory voter who has voted LD in the past (and for a successful LD candidate, so not just a protest vote). Davey has scuppered himself just when I was beginning to like him.
    The problem is the loudmouth idiots on either side. The so-called 'pro-trans' people who seem more interested in arguing more than helping the interests of trans people; the anti-pro-trans people who seem just to want a good barney with the other side and make out that trans people are a threat to women.

    And in the middle the trans people suffer, and their interests get forgotten.
    Some (few) trans people are a very serious threat to women, and they are the edge cases that the pro trans tend to focus on. This really isn't a symmetrical situation, because there is exactly one right answer, which coincides as usual with my own views, and that is: trans is fine, we just need some boring but necessary regs to cover the special cases of sport, loos, hospitals and prisons, and some law about children making irreversible decisions they later regret. There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them.
    I'm unsure if you meant 'pro trans' in your first sentence, or 'anti trans'? But the issue there is that some people are a very serious threat to women, and I haven't seen much evidence that trans people contain a higher proportion. And even if they did, that's not enough reason to castigate all trans people. I certainly don't think any of the ones I've known have been a threat to women.

    Indeed, there is a tendency to talk of the threat some trans people are to women, e.g. in jail, and then ignore the much greater threats trans people suffer. I posted figures the other day for the number of assaults on trans people in prison, and it's far greater than the other way.

    Take a statement like: "trans people should not use women's spaces." That probably gets nods of agreement from many. Yet to fully transition and have the op, you need to live as a woman for a period - a year or two. This means a pre-op trans person has to use the facilities of their new gender. There are obvious very real issues in them not doing this.

    "There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them."
    You don't read the right (wrong) places, obviously. And the sad thing is some of the pro-trans people can seem just as nasty.
    Neither, I meant men who identify as women - i.e. people who do it rather than have a pro or anti view on it. Your "only a tiny minority" argument is like the NRA on guns: sometimes the edge cases are so bad you have to legislate for them no matter how numerically insignificant they are. If it makes the argument more palatable I am probably talking in the main about 100% cis men who pretend to be trans for nefarious ends. Like dear old Karen

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
    Yep, people obsessing with that case again. Unfortunately most of the violence appears to go the other way:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

    As it happens, I think you're wrong about that low piece of scum White: since she has apparently since had surgery, she was probably not 'pretending' to be trans.

    As I've said passim, all segments of society have scum. And suffering does not engender nobility: marginalised groups are just as likely to contain saints and sinners.
    Going to have to invite you to fuck off there, for accusing me of "obsessing about" anything.

    You aren't very good at this. You are like a gammon child who has found a woke costume in the dressing-up box and desperately wants to put it on, but hasn't a clue how the tapes and buttons work.

    I did start this conversation by saying "It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights..."

    And what in the name of Christ crucified is this batshit stuff about suffering does not engender nobility? wtf has that to do with anything?
    Wow. What an unnecessary verbal explosion. :(

    I'll ignore most of your rant as the pointless ill-written screed it is. However, I'd like to clear up one point: I mentioned "suffering does not engender nobility" because there is a tendency amongst some to believe that just because a group is marginalised - ethnic minorities, women, trans people etc - that every member of that group is good. And if a member of that group does a bad thing, either they're not really of that group, or they did it because the marginalisation of society has led them to it.

    I mentioned it to point out that there will be wrong 'uns amongst trans people. Something *some* pro-trans people seem rather incapable of seeing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,673

    IshmaelZ said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I just worked out the ambassador thing


    The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

    The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

    Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

    I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.
    The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.
    The PB elite?
    It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.
    Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

    Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?
    How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?
    Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?
    I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

    I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

    Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

    The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

    But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)
    Yet the lack of pleasure about rising wages among the low paid from those who claim to be concerned about them is noticeable.

    Instead the mentality of 'we need more low skilled immigrants to keep the wages down' appears widespread.
    This meme has become holy writ among the more retarded (ie all of them) Brexiters.

    Can’t we have one day off from it? It’s a Sunday after all.
    Funny how you want a day off when you're on the back foot.
    Red Letter day for the Raj, is it?

    Please outline the principal provisions of the AUKUS deal. Just bullet points is fine.
    a) It created a fantastic domestic headline in both Australia and the UK.

    b) It annoyed the French.

    c) It annoyed the Chinese.
    d) It likely has damaged NATO.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    I've just seen the Marr interview with Ed Davey as I didn't believe the report. It's true. If it wasn't so tragic, it would be funny. 'Nothing to do with me, mate,' isn't much of an excuse.

    I used to vote for them. Now I feel silly. Not as silly as Ed. Why couldn't he just say "Banning someone for ten years was clearly an aberration, I will sort it out."

    If I were the other parties, I'd use it against them at every opportunity - it's political gold.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,579
    The case for generating power from tidal lagoon power stations around England and Wales just keeps getting better and better....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58615356
  • I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    dixiedean said:

    David Moyes football genius.

    Cristiano Ronaldo, football god.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408
    edited September 2021

    What’s wrong with the score?

    If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4
    Wides, no balls and leg byes? The standard looks terrible.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    pigeon said:

    On a serious note listening to Marr interview with Ed Davey on trans issues, which I admit I do not normally comment on, it does seem this issue is going to cause considerable controversy for them and also Labour with Rosie Duffield scared of attending their conference.

    It's also very dangerous for the Lib Dems. They might be able to cause an upset in the shires in a protest vote by-election, but if they end up looking like Yellow Labour come the next GE then how far are they actually going to get in flipping Tory seats into their column? Not very, one would imagine.
    It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights, but I would not in a million years vote for a party which buys the present pro trans activist nonsense. And I am a floating ex tory voter who has voted LD in the past (and for a successful LD candidate, so not just a protest vote). Davey has scuppered himself just when I was beginning to like him.
    The problem is the loudmouth idiots on either side. The so-called 'pro-trans' people who seem more interested in arguing more than helping the interests of trans people; the anti-pro-trans people who seem just to want a good barney with the other side and make out that trans people are a threat to women.

    And in the middle the trans people suffer, and their interests get forgotten.
    Some (few) trans people are a very serious threat to women, and they are the edge cases that the pro trans tend to focus on. This really isn't a symmetrical situation, because there is exactly one right answer, which coincides as usual with my own views, and that is: trans is fine, we just need some boring but necessary regs to cover the special cases of sport, loos, hospitals and prisons, and some law about children making irreversible decisions they later regret. There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them.
    I'm unsure if you meant 'pro trans' in your first sentence, or 'anti trans'? But the issue there is that some people are a very serious threat to women, and I haven't seen much evidence that trans people contain a higher proportion. And even if they did, that's not enough reason to castigate all trans people. I certainly don't think any of the ones I've known have been a threat to women.

    Indeed, there is a tendency to talk of the threat some trans people are to women, e.g. in jail, and then ignore the much greater threats trans people suffer. I posted figures the other day for the number of assaults on trans people in prison, and it's far greater than the other way.

    Take a statement like: "trans people should not use women's spaces." That probably gets nods of agreement from many. Yet to fully transition and have the op, you need to live as a woman for a period - a year or two. This means a pre-op trans person has to use the facilities of their new gender. There are obvious very real issues in them not doing this.

    "There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them."
    You don't read the right (wrong) places, obviously. And the sad thing is some of the pro-trans people can seem just as nasty.
    Neither, I meant men who identify as women - i.e. people who do it rather than have a pro or anti view on it. Your "only a tiny minority" argument is like the NRA on guns: sometimes the edge cases are so bad you have to legislate for them no matter how numerically insignificant they are. If it makes the argument more palatable I am probably talking in the main about 100% cis men who pretend to be trans for nefarious ends. Like dear old Karen

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
    Yep, people obsessing with that case again. Unfortunately most of the violence appears to go the other way:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

    That's not the other way.

    That's male prisoners assaulting Transgender Identified Men in a male prison.

    Which is not "the other way" to Transgender Identified Men assaulting Women in a woman's prison.

    Perhaps we need to be looking at some units for "self-identified but not surgically altered" prisoners within larger prisons.

    @IshmaelZ

    'Women commit assault too' *is* a valid argument (see child abuse numbers, for example), but I agree not in this context.
    It is the other way. One is the threat others face from trans people. The other way is the threat trans people face from others. And it appears from the figures that the latter is much higher than the former, in prisons at least.
    That's a category error.

    I don't think you can conflate men and women in this context.
    I know what you mean but if we look specifically at transwomen (biological males who identify as female) who have been convicted of a crime and must do porridge, there are 2 potential risks that I think can be meaningfully compared. (1) That if sent to a women's prison they will harm other inmates. (2) That if sent to a men's prison they will be harmed BY other inmates.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    pigeon said:

    On a serious note listening to Marr interview with Ed Davey on trans issues, which I admit I do not normally comment on, it does seem this issue is going to cause considerable controversy for them and also Labour with Rosie Duffield scared of attending their conference.

    It's also very dangerous for the Lib Dems. They might be able to cause an upset in the shires in a protest vote by-election, but if they end up looking like Yellow Labour come the next GE then how far are they actually going to get in flipping Tory seats into their column? Not very, one would imagine.
    It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights, but I would not in a million years vote for a party which buys the present pro trans activist nonsense. And I am a floating ex tory voter who has voted LD in the past (and for a successful LD candidate, so not just a protest vote). Davey has scuppered himself just when I was beginning to like him.
    The problem is the loudmouth idiots on either side. The so-called 'pro-trans' people who seem more interested in arguing more than helping the interests of trans people; the anti-pro-trans people who seem just to want a good barney with the other side and make out that trans people are a threat to women.

    And in the middle the trans people suffer, and their interests get forgotten.
    Some (few) trans people are a very serious threat to women, and they are the edge cases that the pro trans tend to focus on. This really isn't a symmetrical situation, because there is exactly one right answer, which coincides as usual with my own views, and that is: trans is fine, we just need some boring but necessary regs to cover the special cases of sport, loos, hospitals and prisons, and some law about children making irreversible decisions they later regret. There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them.
    I'm unsure if you meant 'pro trans' in your first sentence, or 'anti trans'? But the issue there is that some people are a very serious threat to women, and I haven't seen much evidence that trans people contain a higher proportion. And even if they did, that's not enough reason to castigate all trans people. I certainly don't think any of the ones I've known have been a threat to women.

    Indeed, there is a tendency to talk of the threat some trans people are to women, e.g. in jail, and then ignore the much greater threats trans people suffer. I posted figures the other day for the number of assaults on trans people in prison, and it's far greater than the other way.

    Take a statement like: "trans people should not use women's spaces." That probably gets nods of agreement from many. Yet to fully transition and have the op, you need to live as a woman for a period - a year or two. This means a pre-op trans person has to use the facilities of their new gender. There are obvious very real issues in them not doing this.

    "There may be nutters who regard all trans people as the spawn of the devil, but I haven't heard of them."
    You don't read the right (wrong) places, obviously. And the sad thing is some of the pro-trans people can seem just as nasty.
    Neither, I meant men who identify as women - i.e. people who do it rather than have a pro or anti view on it. Your "only a tiny minority" argument is like the NRA on guns: sometimes the edge cases are so bad you have to legislate for them no matter how numerically insignificant they are. If it makes the argument more palatable I am probably talking in the main about 100% cis men who pretend to be trans for nefarious ends. Like dear old Karen

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life
    Yep, people obsessing with that case again. Unfortunately most of the violence appears to go the other way:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

    As it happens, I think you're wrong about that low piece of scum White: since she has apparently since had surgery, she was probably not 'pretending' to be trans.

    As I've said passim, all segments of society have scum. And suffering does not engender nobility: marginalised groups are just as likely to contain saints and sinners.
    Going to have to invite you to fuck off there, for accusing me of "obsessing about" anything.

    You aren't very good at this. You are like a gammon child who has found a woke costume in the dressing-up box and desperately wants to put it on, but hasn't a clue how the tapes and buttons work.

    I did start this conversation by saying "It is indeed. I have been passionately pro gay rights ever since I was old enough to understand the issue, I am exactly as pro trans rights as I am pro gay rights..."

    And what in the name of Christ crucified is this batshit stuff about suffering does not engender nobility? wtf has that to do with anything?
    Wow. What an unnecessary verbal explosion. :(

    I'll ignore most of your rant as the pointless ill-written screed it is. However, I'd like to clear up one point: I mentioned "suffering does not engender nobility" because there is a tendency amongst some to believe that just because a group is marginalised - ethnic minorities, women, trans people etc - that every member of that group is good. And if a member of that group does a bad thing, either they're not really of that group, or they did it because the marginalisation of society has led them to it.

    I mentioned it to point out that there will be wrong 'uns amongst trans people. Something *some* pro-trans people seem rather incapable of seeing.
    Sorry, but fuck off.
  • What’s wrong with the score?

    If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4
    Wides, no balls and leg byes? The standard looks terrible.
    The balls played still ought to add up. I'd guess they weren't actually using the computer score system, and just happened to have the video recording
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I just worked out the ambassador thing


    The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

    The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

    Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

    I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.
    The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.
    The PB elite?
    It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.
    Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

    Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?
    How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?
    Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?
    I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

    I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

    Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

    The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

    But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)
    But "a section of the liberal left elite" who keep proposing the same remedy to the nation's ills - namely, piling unsustainable levels of tax and borrowing onto the shoulders of the private sector to the benefit of the public sector - is wilfully NOT wanting the best for the British people. It is looking out for a narrow section of its own self-interest, whilst ignoring that every time they implement it, the economy goes tits up. And the poorest inevitably suffer the most.

    At what point is it safe to heap moral opprobrium on them for that?
    This is confusing. Are people who work in the public sector the "elite"? How are you "liberal" and "left" at the same time?
    Is the huge borrowing undertaken by the Conservative government part of this left-liberal ruination of the economy, and if not, why not?
    Those who work in the public sector have been the elite during the Covid crisis for sure. They have kept their pay (often having massive overtime too), kept their pensions, kept their career progression. It was very largely the private sector that got done over.

    This Conservative government took the hard decision to support the workers in the private sector until they were better able to weather the economic storm. That storm has taken longer to abate than might have been expected, but the government stood by that pledge. It has borrowed vast amounts of money in order to do so. The difference is that if had elected a Corbyn government in 2017 or 2019, then by the time Covid hit, the headroom to borrow for furlough would have already gone - to the public sector.

    So it is still quite easy to square the circle. This Government - absent a once in a century public health disaster - would prefer to have a smaller state - and consequently, lower taxation. But part of the fall-out of that health disaster has been the now impossible-to-defer need to confront the provision of social care. That has required a rise in taxation. Nobody has come up with an alternative route. Certainly not HM Opposition.

    But when it comes to the next set of manifestos, the Labour Party will again propose more taxation and borrowing than can ever be endured by the private sector. And the Conservative Party will oppose that.
    I suspect the Labour Party will not be proposing more taxation on anything beyond wealth as there is nothing left to tax
  • Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I just worked out the ambassador thing


    The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

    The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

    Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

    I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.
    The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.
    The PB elite?
    It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.
    Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

    Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?
    How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?
    Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?
    I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

    I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

    Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

    The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

    But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)
    But "a section of the liberal left elite" who keep proposing the same remedy to the nation's ills - namely, piling unsustainable levels of tax and borrowing onto the shoulders of the private sector to the benefit of the public sector - is wilfully NOT wanting the best for the British people. It is looking out for a narrow section of its own self-interest, whilst ignoring that every time they implement it, the economy goes tits up. And the poorest inevitably suffer the most.

    At what point is it safe to heap moral opprobrium on them for that?
    This is confusing. Are people who work in the public sector the "elite"? How are you "liberal" and "left" at the same time?
    Is the huge borrowing undertaken by the Conservative government part of this left-liberal ruination of the economy, and if not, why not?
    Those who work in the public sector have been the elite during the Covid crisis for sure. They have kept their pay (often having massive overtime too), kept their pensions, kept their career progression. It was very largely the private sector that got done over.

    This Conservative government took the hard decision to support the workers in the private sector until they were better able to weather the economic storm. That storm has taken longer to abate than might have been expected, but the government stood by that pledge. It has borrowed vast amounts of money in order to do so. The difference is that if had elected a Corbyn government in 2017 or 2019, then by the time Covid hit, the headroom to borrow for furlough would have already gone - to the public sector.

    So it is still quite easy to square the circle. This Government - absent a once in a century public health disaster - would prefer to have a smaller state - and consequently, lower taxation. But part of the fall-out of that health disaster has been the now impossible-to-defer need to confront the provision of social care. That has required a rise in taxation. Nobody has come up with an alternative route. Certainly not HM Opposition.

    But when it comes to the next set of manifestos, the Labour Party will again propose more taxation and borrowing than can ever be endured by the private sector. And the Conservative Party will oppose that.
    First, you treat the private sector as homogeneous but surely lorry drivers and others who have seen large pay rises are in the private sector. Furloughed workers who have taken second jobs are also in the private sector. It might also be, though I've not checked, that more deaths occurred in the public sector, with health workers and bus drivers being hit early on.

    Then you say this government would prefer a smaller state, yet it was elected explicitly to increase the size of the state: more police; more hospitals; more broadband and so on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    Fishing said:

    The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

    It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

    The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit
    Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.
  • I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346
    felix said:

    MaxPB said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    Every word typed of that piece must have been like a dagger to the heart of the writer.

    It wasn't supposed to happen this way. The EU assured the world that the UK would be sidelined and turned into a backwater.
    That would be the same EU whining about not being consulted on this or, to coin a phrase, 'sidelined'?
    UK already is a backwater. Bum wipers for the US is no glorious position unless youare mentally deranged.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,050
    edited September 2021
    Ronaldo....4 goals in 3 games...do you reckon he has a tally chart of him vs messi hung up in his house as a bit of a motivator?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,853

    I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

    It's all they have left. Reality has been a chastening experience for them over these last few years. The City is still just the same, our old alliances have been strengthened, the EU is being sidelined globally and the UK is under no pressure to agree to any alignment deals as was suggested by remainers.

    Expect their derangement to ramp up over the next couple of years as the EU becomes less and less relevant to the world.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

    It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

    The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit
    Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.
    I'm told it's an enriching experience.
  • What’s wrong with the score?

    If you mean the cricket vid tweet I posted, it's 38/0 off 25 balls. One batsman has 12 off 8, the other has 0 off 4
    Wides, no balls and leg byes? The standard looks terrible.
    The balls played still ought to add up. I'd guess they weren't actually using the computer score system, and just happened to have the video recording
    Or... maybe the bat-slinger also took out his opening partner earlier, so he was retired hurt having faced the 13 'missing' balls?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
  • ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

    It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

    The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit
    Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.
    I'm told it's an enriching experience.
    If you go fission', you might be able to create some fusion food...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

    It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

    The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit
    Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.
    I'm told it's an enriching experience.
    If you go fission', you might be able to create some fusion food...
    It's a good source of protons.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
  • ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    malcolmg said:

    Fishing said:

    The Observer's op-ed on the AUKUS triumph is either a brilliant parody of Remoaner hand-wringing, or else it was dictated by Macron:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/sep/19/observer-view-on-anglo-french-relations-aukus-pact

    It's hilarious - after pulling off one of the greatest diplomatic and military coups in decades:

    The exclusion of France from the Aukus pact leaves the UK at risk of further isolation after Brexit
    Yes we can eat a lot of nucleur submarines you half witted cretin.
    I'm told it's an enriching experience.
    If you go fission', you might be able to create some fusion food...
    It's a good source of protons.
    But if you choose a recipe containing Scorpion, you might be Kursking the day you started ...

    (I couldn't get Thresher in there...)
  • Ronaldo....4 goals in 3 games...do you reckon he has a tally chart of him vs messi hung up in his house as a bit of a motivator?

    I have this sneaking suspicion that when he does finally retire he won't become like fat Ronaldo. Rather, like Jimmy Anderson, some poor sods in their 40 and 50s are going to continue to be embarrassed by him whipping their arse in senior matches.
  • Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735
    edited September 2021
    Tried to watch the Ed Davey stream.

    But seem to have got:

    Two LibDems activists including an MP trying desperately to get the audience whipped up into excitement by pratting about with the blue wall model and singing to ABBA.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,409

    The case for generating power from tidal lagoon power stations around England and Wales just keeps getting better and better....

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58615356

    Indeed. It's summat that is so obvious as to promote only mystification.
    We are an island. With some of the highest tides in the world.
    It is a bit like Saudi not being arsed to investigate how to get oil out of the ground.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?

    That 54 million quid was well wasted but at least they to supply some of the toilets for the Aussie subs.
  • ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    I have it on good authority that he tried to pull one of them rather than listening to any prophecies though.
  • Oh God. Libdems now showing buckets being passed around the small audience to put cash in.

    Not exactly Ed Davey's leaders speech is it?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978
    edited September 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?

    That 54 million quid was well wasted but at least they to supply some of the toilets for the Aussie subs.
    Time to order more jet skis..



    https://twitter.com/joanesquirt/status/1436614171358023680?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,050
    edited September 2021
    Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

    He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    I have it on good authority that he tried to pull one of them rather than listening to any prophecies though.
    Well, the Great Grumbledook did much the same as I recall.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,679
    edited September 2021
    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
  • Winning Here!


  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,735
    edited September 2021

    The nightmare scenario now for Boris is that a humiliated Macron

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Any scenario that starts with the words 'Trump re-elected' is a nightmare.
  • Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

    He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

    Is that like their prediction that this summer would be carnage after July 19th or like the one that schools reopening last spring would kill us all?
  • Any news on encouraging the French to staunch the bleeding of refugees/economic migrants into the Channel and thence on to the unsullied coast of the UK (south region). Going well I imagine?

    Perhaps Priti could do one of her parallel foreign-policy initiatives and grovel to Macron behind Boris's back.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408

    Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

    He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

    “Listen to me. Listen to me! LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME IM REALLY IMPORTANT! WHY WONT YOU LISTEN TO ME...”
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420

    Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

    He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

    Is that like their prediction that this summer would be carnage after July 19th or like the one that schools reopening last spring would kill us all?
    You never know, it might be a case of Third Reicher.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    edited September 2021

    I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

    There's nothing meaningless or empty about Australia ditching France in favour of the US as their counterparty on a massive arms deal. As for the Aukus wrapper Britain WAS needed for that. We add value to the look & feel of the package and we get value back ourselves. It's great optics for the Johnson government, cost-free promo for post-Brexit Global Britain, a genuine political achievement.

    Unless this provisional take is wrong and when we know more it turns out the Aukus angle isn't just presentational spin and what we have here is the platform for a new and substantive Anglo alliance against China in the Pacific, in which we'll be a serious player and second only to America. In which case it's even less meaningless and empty. A mistake, imo, but not meaningless and empty.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,853

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    That's what you're now left hoping for, Trump to be re-elected. What a sad turn of events.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    Ronaldo....4 goals in 3 games...do you reckon he has a tally chart of him vs messi hung up in his house as a bit of a motivator?

    There were some amazing statistics when he scored in the CL. Since the age of 30 he has scored 64 goals in 68 games in the CL. That was 35 more than anyone else past the age of 30. Presumably Messi was second but not even half.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

    Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346
    kinabalu said:

    I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

    There's nothing meaningless or empty about Australia ditching France in favour of the US as their counterparty on a massive arms deal. As for the Aukus wrapper Britain WAS needed for that. We add value to the look & feel of the package and we get value back ourselves. It's great optics for the Johnson government, cost-free promo for post-Brexit Global Britain, a genuine political achievement.

    Unless this provisional take is wrong and when we know more it turns out the Aukus angle isn't just presentational spin and what we have here is the platform for a new and substantive Anglo alliance against China in the Pacific in which we'll be a serious player, second only to America. In which case it's even less meaningless and empty. It's a mistake, imo, but not meaningless and empty.
    At best they will be US lapdog lickspittles as usual. French will ensure the EU put the boot in somewhere and the morons on here will not be so smug.
  • Ministers have increased the risk of importing dangerous new Covid variants by 'abandoning' the testing system for global travel, a SAGE (and iSAGE) psychologist advising the Government has claimed.

    He said the Government has responded to this 'not by improving the system but by abandoning it entirely', and added that, domestically, there remains 'huge uncertainty' about the effect on virus cases of the return of schools, universities, workplaces and people spending more time indoors in the autumn weather.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10006261/Ministers-increased-risk-importing-variants-abandoning-testing-global-travel.html

    “Listen to me. Listen to me! LISTEN TO ME! LISTEN TO ME IM REALLY IMPORTANT! WHY WONT YOU LISTEN TO ME...”
    The guy with the 'end of the world is nigh' sandwich board?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

    Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.
    When I think of Johnson's government and Macbeth, I just hope my remarks Birnam.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    That's what you're now left hoping for, Trump to be re-elected. What a sad turn of events.
    It is beyond me how anyone could hope total loons like Trump and Le Pen could be put in charge of nuclear weapons (again, in Trump's case).

    I suppose it probably would solve all the world's problems in short order, but you don't really solve anything by reducing us to radioactive cinders.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    MaxPB said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    That's what you're now left hoping for, Trump to be re-elected. What a sad turn of events.
    Rather that than admit it might have been a bit of a coup for Johnson.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

    Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.
    When I think of Johnson's government and Macbeth, I just hope my remarks Birnam.
    You clearly dunsinane better. (works better with a Scottish accent, honest).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,050
    edited September 2021
    “I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

    Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,420
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    I confess in my known unknowns list for Gen Election 2023/4, I didn't have an energy crisis and a three day week.

    The Three Witches are Covid, Brexit and the energy crisis.

    Now Johnson has met them all he's the Blasted Heath.
    By the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

    Some of my favourite lines in Shakespeare.
    When I think of Johnson's government and Macbeth, I just hope my remarks Birnam.
    You clearly dunsinane better. (works better with a Scottish accent, honest).
    I think I got Mc Duffed up there.
  • The reaction to this defence pact by some, reminds me of the reaction of Novara media coverage of the 2019 GE results.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418

    “I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

    Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?

    Disgruntled former employee sends letter and its news.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,050
    edited September 2021
    Taz said:

    “I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

    Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?

    Disgruntled former employee sends letter and its news.
    It is to the Guardian...the complaint is a word salad of terminology that is used by those who start from the position that every white person is racist, and to deny that means those denying further proof of racist thinking or if non-white themselves some sort of sell out BAME ala Kemi Badenoch.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198
    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    I see the Remoaners, having worked out that denying Britain had any part to play in Aukus is a fruitless line of attack, have now decided to try and push the meme that it's meaningless and empty instead.

    There's nothing meaningless or empty about Australia ditching France in favour of the US as their counterparty on a massive arms deal. As for the Aukus wrapper Britain WAS needed for that. We add value to the look & feel of the package and we get value back ourselves. It's great optics for the Johnson government, cost-free promo for post-Brexit Global Britain, a genuine political achievement.

    Unless this provisional take is wrong and when we know more it turns out the Aukus angle isn't just presentational spin and what we have here is the platform for a new and substantive Anglo alliance against China in the Pacific in which we'll be a serious player, second only to America. In which case it's even less meaningless and empty. It's a mistake, imo, but not meaningless and empty.
    At best they will be US lapdog lickspittles as usual. French will ensure the EU put the boot in somewhere and the morons on here will not be so smug.
    The "Deep and Special Partnership" isn't off to a fast start, it must be said.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,567

    ydoethur said:

    Good morning one and all; cloudy and overcast again this morning, and the rain's possibly back this afternoon.14 degC, which isn't too bad.

    Enjoyed the cricket yesterday, although how a perfectly good catch was turned into a six was puzzling.

    The catcher collided with somebody who was touching the boundary rope.

    Bizarre and freakish but not really puzzling.

    Edit - of course in the semis you also had Weatherley reprieved because somebody stepped outside the circle.
    The catcher had completed the catch though. I agree; bizarre.

    In other sports related news, it appears there may be a treatment, at least of sorts for Motor Neurone Disease, and Rob Burrow is 'giving it a go'. We have family experience of MND, so we welcome anything that will help sufferers.
    He hadn't completed the catch. He was still at a stage where he might have dropped it, and hadn't yet "further disposed of it". Ironically, if he'd thrown it up in the air in celebration a fraction of a second earlier it would have been out because that would have counted as having further disposed of the ball.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    “I’m tired of being part of an institution that is meant to support the equality and human rights of ethnic minority people, that is meant to acknowledge and accept structural and institutional racism, yet find myself in an institution that is colluding in its denial.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/sep/19/britains-equality-watchdog-colluding-in-denial-of-institutional-racism

    Isn't it suppose to support the equality and human rights of everybody?

    But with a focus on minorities, I think this is generally accepted. It'd be rather anodyne otherwise. Either that or so overarching as to be a quite enormously large and powerful entity. "The Department for protecting the rights and promoting the interests of Everybody" - whoever was running this would need a finger in every pie and would be arguably more important than the PM himself. Wouldn't work, not even with the ablest individual, and imagine if it were Gavin Williamson.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,461
    On trans rights, my girlfriend is a northern, non-university educated red waller and she has absolutely zero fears about trans rights eroding feminism or safe spaces for women or whatever. There is definitely a generational divide on this, which is probably down to the younger generation growing up in a culture of much more equality than there was before.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,050
    edited September 2021
    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,198

    Farooq said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    felix said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    I just worked out the ambassador thing


    The French can cope with being humiliated and screwed over by America. Because the USA is much bigger. A superpower. Like China. That’s life. Withdraw the ambassador. It’s a mere gesture but it might sting them

    The French can cope with the Australian betrayal (tho it hurts more). The Australians are inferior. A small country with too many kangaroos. Pff! Withdraw the ambassador and try and destabilize their tiny politics

    Britain? Brexit Britain? Perfidious Albion? This is their exact rival, and equal. The country next door that constantly infuriates them even as it intrigues them. This stupid foggy island has totally beaten us?? It’s the pain of Sunderland losing to Newcastle. It is a bitter local rivalry. Withdrawing the French ambassador in London would be acknowledging England’s triumph. It is too painful, so instead they resort to cooking metaphors

    I think there's another layer which is that the French elite are collectively afraid of contemplating the possibility that Boris Johnson was right about the EU. They can't take him seriously, because their own worldview depends on seeing him as a clown.
    The same applies to a great number of posters on this site.
    The PB elite?
    It has been even more noticeable in the post-Brexit years that a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north. Of course it all began with the unfortunate microphone incident with Gordon Brown. It is this above all which has riven the Labour party asunder and it's unclear that they are even on the road to recognising let alone mending this problem. The current treatment of some of their women MPs referred to above is simply the latest example of this problem.
    Putting thoughts and motivations in other people's minds has also become common, no?

    Have you ever read Roger's comments? Do you think the GB microphone comment was fake?
    How would you feel if I attributed the views of (say) @HYUFD to broadly right wing people?
    Fine - but be more specific - I referred to, quote, 'a section of the liberal left' which, without wishing to be condescending, is I think rather narrower than 'broadly right wing people', no?
    I apologise if I've gotten a bit shirty. One of the things that has really annoyed me about the... shall I call it Trump era? although it's clearly a bigger issue...is this creating caricatures of our political opponents.

    I see it when politicians of the Left accuse those on the Right of being racist for not signing up to the whole BLM thing.

    Anyway: you're usually a pretty thoughtful and nuanced poster, but "a section of the liberal left elite have utter contempt for those less educated among sections of the lower w/c especially from the north" triggered me.

    The reality is that the vast, vast majority of our political opponents only want the best for the British people. They may have a slightly different view of what exactly best constitutes or the correct path to get there.

    But their views, by and large, and every bit as morally valid as ours. (Albeit often not as practical, well thought out, properly costed, or recognising of the foibles of human nature.)
    But "a section of the liberal left elite" who keep proposing the same remedy to the nation's ills - namely, piling unsustainable levels of tax and borrowing onto the shoulders of the private sector to the benefit of the public sector - is wilfully NOT wanting the best for the British people. It is looking out for a narrow section of its own self-interest, whilst ignoring that every time they implement it, the economy goes tits up. And the poorest inevitably suffer the most.

    At what point is it safe to heap moral opprobrium on them for that?
    This is confusing. Are people who work in the public sector the "elite"? How are you "liberal" and "left" at the same time?
    Is the huge borrowing undertaken by the Conservative government part of this left-liberal ruination of the economy, and if not, why not?
    Those who work in the public sector have been the elite during the Covid crisis for sure. They have kept their pay (often having massive overtime too), kept their pensions, kept their career progression. It was very largely the private sector that got done over.

    This Conservative government took the hard decision to support the workers in the private sector until they were better able to weather the economic storm. That storm has taken longer to abate than might have been expected, but the government stood by that pledge. It has borrowed vast amounts of money in order to do so. The difference is that if had elected a Corbyn government in 2017 or 2019, then by the time Covid hit, the headroom to borrow for furlough would have already gone - to the public sector.

    So it is still quite easy to square the circle. This Government - absent a once in a century public health disaster - would prefer to have a smaller state - and consequently, lower taxation. But part of the fall-out of that health disaster has been the now impossible-to-defer need to confront the provision of social care. That has required a rise in taxation. Nobody has come up with an alternative route. Certainly not HM Opposition.

    But when it comes to the next set of manifestos, the Labour Party will again propose more taxation and borrowing than can ever be endured by the private sector. And the Conservative Party will oppose that.
    Cynical to choose NI over Income Tax as a way to raise the funds, though. And it's mainly going to the NHS so social care remains to be tackled.
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,408

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think we must expect any decline in cases (positive tests, for@chris) to be slow and drawn out. There are many factors at play. It’s likely that some of the numbers are uni students going back (pre-testing) etc. Plus there is clearly a lot of virus out there, so infections are going to happen, and more so to the still unvaccinated.
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
    No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.
  • dixiedean said:

    David Moyes football genius.

    Noble on for the penalty doesn't look like a 'genius' move.

    And WHU have now missed 4 of their last 5 pens
  • Labour is heading for an internal bloodletting on the question of whether or not an MP should be disciplined for stating the biological truth that only women have cervixes. That the party of Hardie, Lansbury, Attlee, Bevin, Gaitskell, Castle and Benn should have come to this.

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1439591885748805638?s=20
  • malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
    No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.
    You suggest it and I am so very surprised
  • DavidL said:

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.
    This'll be confusing for Malc - you're admitting having been at the trough, but you're not a Westminster politician.. disnae compute
  • Labour is heading for an internal bloodletting on the question of whether or not an MP should be disciplined for stating the biological truth that only women have cervixes. That the party of Hardie, Lansbury, Attlee, Bevin, Gaitskell, Castle and Benn should have come to this.

    https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1439591885748805638?s=20

    And listening to Davey this morning on Marr so are the lib dems
  • Good speech by Ed Davey. Attack the Blue Wall. Foreign Aid cut morally wrong. Lets empower parents by giving part of the covid education recovery fund to them to spend on education as they see fit.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094
    edited September 2021

    Good speech by Ed Davey. Attack the Blue Wall. Foreign Aid cut morally wrong. Lets empower parents by giving part of the covid education recovery fund to them to spend on education as they see fit.

    And on trans right and banning an activists for 10 years for wearing a t shirt

    Was he silent
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845

    DavidL said:

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.
    This'll be confusing for Malc - you're admitting having been at the trough, but you're not a Westminster politician.. disnae compute
    It's ok, I am a Tory. Malc can always come to terms with Tories being at the trough, no matter where they live.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104
    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Brexit thing is overdone by “commentators” on here. There’s no direct Brexit angle.

    The key question is why is the US willing to humiliate France, a key ally, “live via satellite”?

    By all means, Australia, cancel what looks to have been an awful deal, but it’s the *way* this has played out which is such a kick up the arse to France.

    France, and hence the EU, will take the message that the US cannot be relied on.

    I think the key takeaway here is the opposite. The US has lost patience with the EU being hamstrung by Germany's foreign policy objectives. France is being asked the question of whether or not they are serious about containing China in APAC. Once the noise goes away I wouldn't be surprised if tentative moves to get the French into some associate membership position aren't made.

    The point if this partnership is to jettison those slow moving countries like Germany who hold back a much tougher western response to Chinese aggression. The internal EU squabbling is something we know frustrated us when we were in it trying to target Russia with sanctions or trying to get an EU-wide policy on Huawei. To an outsider like the US the process must seem interminable and with their major military power now not in the EU, they have no reason to care about it.
    Why is it in France’s interests to “contain” China?

    If this is the USA forcing France to pick sides, it’s a very humiliating way to go about it.
    It is in everyone's interest to contain China
    Why? Is China a material threat to France?
    In fact, China and Europe need each other.
    And that is the problem

    The issue is that for many they do not comprehend the concerns in the Trans Pacific about China and their need to deter Chinese aggression that could destabilise the whole vast area.

    There is also a need to compete with China commercially and an expanded CPTPP including the UK and possibly the US would go a long way to providing such a market place.

    I know you are a Kiwi and of course NZ has embraced China and banned Australian nuclear subs from her waters

    Like Europe, NZ will have a choice to make herself in the years ahead

    This has been asked before, but I still haven't seen a clear answer... what is the nature of this Chinese aggression?
    We can agree that China is a threat to Taiwan, but is there anything beyond that?
    I have this vague idea that America is a bigger threat to third countries than China, based on recent history. Can someone explain why I'm wrong about that?

    And please note, I am not in any way saying China is better. Yes the internal repression in China is criminal and deeply wrong. I'm asking about external aggression.
    The threat is not just Taiwan but the South China Sea which is a vital sea route and coincidental one which I partly sailed across from South Korea to China

    I think a lot of the misunderstanding in all of this is that little attention is given in this country to anywhere beyond Europe, when in fact it is a small region when compared to the one that this threat is perceived as very real
    Please see my response to Carlotta on the same matter. I'm afraid my question remains.
    How about this one - it's the right thing to do.
    To take a stance against countries that undertake incursions into other countries' territories? You could be right, but my question is why single out China is that respect? The USA does the same (possibly to a far greater extent), but the idea of forming an alliance against America would be risible. What makes the difference?
    America is (still) a democratic nation. China is a fascistic one.
    Yes, the former has serious problems and flaws, as do we, but they are not the same and it's not arrogance to reject even unintended attempts at equivalence.
  • kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Brexit thing is overdone by “commentators” on here. There’s no direct Brexit angle.

    The key question is why is the US willing to humiliate France, a key ally, “live via satellite”?

    By all means, Australia, cancel what looks to have been an awful deal, but it’s the *way* this has played out which is such a kick up the arse to France.

    France, and hence the EU, will take the message that the US cannot be relied on.

    I think the key takeaway here is the opposite. The US has lost patience with the EU being hamstrung by Germany's foreign policy objectives. France is being asked the question of whether or not they are serious about containing China in APAC. Once the noise goes away I wouldn't be surprised if tentative moves to get the French into some associate membership position aren't made.

    The point if this partnership is to jettison those slow moving countries like Germany who hold back a much tougher western response to Chinese aggression. The internal EU squabbling is something we know frustrated us when we were in it trying to target Russia with sanctions or trying to get an EU-wide policy on Huawei. To an outsider like the US the process must seem interminable and with their major military power now not in the EU, they have no reason to care about it.
    Why is it in France’s interests to “contain” China?

    If this is the USA forcing France to pick sides, it’s a very humiliating way to go about it.
    It is in everyone's interest to contain China
    Why? Is China a material threat to France?
    In fact, China and Europe need each other.
    And that is the problem

    The issue is that for many they do not comprehend the concerns in the Trans Pacific about China and their need to deter Chinese aggression that could destabilise the whole vast area.

    There is also a need to compete with China commercially and an expanded CPTPP including the UK and possibly the US would go a long way to providing such a market place.

    I know you are a Kiwi and of course NZ has embraced China and banned Australian nuclear subs from her waters

    Like Europe, NZ will have a choice to make herself in the years ahead

    This has been asked before, but I still haven't seen a clear answer... what is the nature of this Chinese aggression?
    We can agree that China is a threat to Taiwan, but is there anything beyond that?
    I have this vague idea that America is a bigger threat to third countries than China, based on recent history. Can someone explain why I'm wrong about that?

    And please note, I am not in any way saying China is better. Yes the internal repression in China is criminal and deeply wrong. I'm asking about external aggression.
    The threat is not just Taiwan but the South China Sea which is a vital sea route and coincidental one which I partly sailed across from South Korea to China

    I think a lot of the misunderstanding in all of this is that little attention is given in this country to anywhere beyond Europe, when in fact it is a small region when compared to the one that this threat is perceived as very real
    Please see my response to Carlotta on the same matter. I'm afraid my question remains.
    How about this one - it's the right thing to do.
    To take a stance against countries that undertake incursions into other countries' territories? You could be right, but my question is why single out China is that respect? The USA does the same (possibly to a far greater extent), but the idea of forming an alliance against America would be risible. What makes the difference?
    America is (still) a democratic nation. China is a fascistic one.
    Yes, the former has serious problems and flaws, as do we, but they are not the same and it's not arrogance to reject even unintended attempts at equivalence.
    The best thing that could happen to China is for it to become a two-party state, and therefore a real democracy.
    The best thing that could happen to the US is for it to become a three-party state, and therefore a better democracy.
    The best thing that could happen to the UK is... more political betting opportunities. ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,104

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Farooq said:

    Farooq said:

    MaxPB said:

    The Brexit thing is overdone by “commentators” on here. There’s no direct Brexit angle.

    The key question is why is the US willing to humiliate France, a key ally, “live via satellite”?

    By all means, Australia, cancel what looks to have been an awful deal, but it’s the *way* this has played out which is such a kick up the arse to France.

    France, and hence the EU, will take the message that the US cannot be relied on.

    I think the key takeaway here is the opposite. The US has lost patience with the EU being hamstrung by Germany's foreign policy objectives. France is being asked the question of whether or not they are serious about containing China in APAC. Once the noise goes away I wouldn't be surprised if tentative moves to get the French into some associate membership position aren't made.

    The point if this partnership is to jettison those slow moving countries like Germany who hold back a much tougher western response to Chinese aggression. The internal EU squabbling is something we know frustrated us when we were in it trying to target Russia with sanctions or trying to get an EU-wide policy on Huawei. To an outsider like the US the process must seem interminable and with their major military power now not in the EU, they have no reason to care about it.
    Why is it in France’s interests to “contain” China?

    If this is the USA forcing France to pick sides, it’s a very humiliating way to go about it.
    It is in everyone's interest to contain China
    Why? Is China a material threat to France?
    In fact, China and Europe need each other.
    And that is the problem

    The issue is that for many they do not comprehend the concerns in the Trans Pacific about China and their need to deter Chinese aggression that could destabilise the whole vast area.

    There is also a need to compete with China commercially and an expanded CPTPP including the UK and possibly the US would go a long way to providing such a market place.

    I know you are a Kiwi and of course NZ has embraced China and banned Australian nuclear subs from her waters

    Like Europe, NZ will have a choice to make herself in the years ahead

    This has been asked before, but I still haven't seen a clear answer... what is the nature of this Chinese aggression?
    We can agree that China is a threat to Taiwan, but is there anything beyond that?
    I have this vague idea that America is a bigger threat to third countries than China, based on recent history. Can someone explain why I'm wrong about that?

    And please note, I am not in any way saying China is better. Yes the internal repression in China is criminal and deeply wrong. I'm asking about external aggression.
    South China Seas - they've set off an arms race:

    https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Indo-Pacific/Indonesia-looks-to-triple-submarine-fleet-after-Chinese-incursions
    I've restored my full post to your quote because the other bits are directly relevant.
    Chinese incursions in the South China Seas, ok, yes. It's pretty normal for large powers to do this. Russia is well known in recent years for putting planes and subs in other countries' territory. America undertakes military operations in foreign territory without permission a lot.

    So your example is a fine one, but doesn't really go any distance to answering my question.
    From my perspective, China is a threat on three key grounds:

    1. It’s ideology is (or should be) anathema to liberal democracies.

    2. It claims ownership of the South China Sea (in opposition to the claims of its neighbours) which is a critical route for global trade, and is increasingly arming up to support incursions etc.

    3. It attempts to silence and/or buy-off various actors around the world in support of (1) and (2).

    Since the rise of Xi - who is effectively now leader for life - it has ramped up the aggressive rhetoric and behaviour and seems increasingly willing to disturb the global order instead of maintaining it.

    It has also corrupted international organisations like the WHO, WTO and now World Bank from the latest news. It is a malign influence and it has been waging a cold war against the democratic world.
    What’s the World Bank thing?
    Same old thing, bribery, they bribed people in the World Bank to boost China's statistics, or at least not downgrade them. I'll see if I can dig up the article at some point, but it's also pizza day in casa MaxPB and I'm head pizzaiolo.
    No pineapple, one hopes.
    No pineapple, no sweetcorn, no chicken, no BBQ sauce. 😄
    Swetcorn on pizza is a far greater crime than pineapple IMHO. pineapple has a tangy, juicy quality that works quite nicely with the cheese - not something the purists will agree with but it can be quite tasty, especially if paired with something spicy. Sweetcorn on the other hand brings nothing to the table, no flavour, carb-heavy and a cloying sweetness. When I worked in a (not at all authentic) pizza restaurant the chicken and sweetcorn pizza was always popular with a certain kind of bland, forgettable, customer, too. Ham and pineapple attracted a more varied crowd.
    Sweetcorn is the king of vegetables, I add it to my pizza at every opportunity.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    On trans rights, my girlfriend is a northern, non-university educated red waller and she has absolutely zero fears about trans rights eroding feminism or safe spaces for women or whatever. There is definitely a generational divide on this, which is probably down to the younger generation growing up in a culture of much more equality than there was before.

    Assume she has no plans to go to prison or take part in elite sport, then. Please don't try to generation gap this, I really want brought up in a culture of inequality and intolerance.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    edited September 2021
    Ft;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://www.ft.com/content/684e4ef1-87a9-4bdf-96f4-956df4e0a1e2

    “The cost of buying enough wholesale gas and electricity in the spot market to supply an average household is estimated at about £1,600 a year, while the Ofgem-set price cap on energy bills is at present £1,277”

    It’s wrong for the taxpayer to end up on the hook for this, but that’s clearly what the energy companies are pushing for.

    The govt should just raise the cap. Oh. And delay the universal credit cut until the end of spring.
  • AlistairMAlistairM Posts: 2,005

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    Covid anecdote.

    One girl in my daughter's Y8 form got Covid a week ago. Now over 10 in the class have it, none severe any many with no symptoms. My daughter is negative. Even more convinced now that she had it in February 2020 when she was ill on and off for a month and I spent the whole month coughing. Going to be a very quiet classroom for her this week!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Pioneers,

    Did he suggest parents should receive some of the covid education recovery fund to them to spend on education as they see fit? Private education or tutors?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
    No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.
    You suggest it and I am so very surprised
    He never suggested it , he said it was a possibility which it most certainly is.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346
    Farooq said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
    No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.
    You suggest it and I am so very surprised
    Deliberate misinterpretation from you. Not your most dignified moment.
    Agree, shocking misrepresentation. The tories really are a cult now.
  • pingping Posts: 3,805
    ping said:

    Ft;

    https://www.google.com/search?q=https://www.ft.com/content/684e4ef1-87a9-4bdf-96f4-956df4e0a1e2

    “The cost of buying enough wholesale gas and electricity in the spot market to supply an average household is estimated at about £1,600 a year, while the Ofgem-set price cap on energy bills is at present £1,277”

    It’s wrong for the taxpayer to end up on the hook for this, but that’s clearly what the energy companies are pushing for.

    The govt should just raise the cap. Oh. And delay the universal credit cut until the end of spring.

    Anyway, the general advice to everyone at the moment is: don’t agree a new fixed tariff for your energy supplies. Just go on the capped tariff. You’re being subsidised.
  • Farooq said:

    malcolmg said:

    Sandpit said:

    NYT:

    LONDON — As relations between France and the United States sink to their lowest depths in decades, Britain has emerged as the unlikely winner in a maritime security alliance that has sowed anger and recrimination across three continents.

    The British government played an early role in brokering the three-way alliance with the United States and Australia to deploy nuclear-powered submarines in the Pacific, according to officials in London and Washington. The landmark agreement was announced hours after Australia canceled a $66 billion deal for diesel-electric submarines with France, provoking fury in Paris and quiet satisfaction in London.

    For Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who will meet this coming week with President Biden at the White House and speak at the United Nations, it is his first tangible victory in a campaign to make post-Brexit Britain a player on the global stage.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/18/world/europe/britain-us-france-submarines-brexit.html

    That’s quite the praise from the NYT, given the vast majority of their British output in recent times.
    I wonder what the French are going to say when Biden tells the EU to stop being twats over NI....
    They are not quite the butt lickers the UK are so he may be told to GTF
    I think the French will now simply bide their time and wait for Trump to be re-elected. He will almost certainly cancel AUUKUS simply to spite Boris and Morrison, whom he will regard as Biden lickspittles. A further possibility is that the humiliated Macron loses to Le Pen who then forms and alliance with Trump. That would truly be a nightmare situation for Boris and Britain.
    Have I read that properly

    You are so bitter you want Trump back in US

    Really

    That is astonishing and I am very surprised that you could even think it
    No, you haven't read it properly because at no point do I state that I want Trump back. Nevertheless, I doubt the French now see much advantage in having Biden instead of Trump, which is tragic in itself.
    You suggest it and I am so very surprised
    Deliberate misinterpretation from you. Not your most dignified moment.
    What you need to understand is that Big G is one of the most committed trolls on here.

    Once you realise that he hardly takes any of his own posts seriously, it makes more sense.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.
    This'll be confusing for Malc - you're admitting having been at the trough, but you're not a Westminster politician.. disnae compute
    It's ok, I am a Tory. Malc can always come to terms with Tories being at the trough, no matter where they live.
    Bizarre conversation , I know Tories will always be head deep in the trough if not immersed totally. Not sure how that conflates with covid deaths though.
  • There's a new thread but I can't post on it.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Rentool,

    Nor can I. It was only a comment on subject "Natalie Bird, was banned from standing as an MP for wearing a T-shirt featuring the words "woman adult human female".

    For ten years. At worst, you could call it provocative, but it does feel anti-liberal and anti-democratic. Oh, the hypocrisy. Will I be banned from voting for them for ten years?"

    I suspect it was merely a gremlin.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346
    Farooq said:

    There's a new thread but I can't post on it.

    Same. I'll post my comment here instead:

    It's tedious that everything comes back to Brexit. We need to find better ways to talk about politics that don't always involve that fucking referendum, or we are going to get nowhere.

    That means you, Scott_xp, that means you Casino_Royale, that means you, Big_G_Northwales, that means you Mike_Smithson.
    Unfortunately the Tories cannot get over it, their stock answer for every debacle.
  • Farooq said:

    There's a new thread but I can't post on it.

    Same. I'll post my comment here instead:

    It's tedious that everything comes back to Brexit. We need to find better ways to talk about politics that don't always involve that fucking referendum, or we are going to get nowhere.

    That means you, Scott_xp, that means you Casino_Royale, that means you, Big_G_Northwales, that means you Mike_Smithson.
    The point is it does and from those who want to rejoin

    I am very content to move past Brexit which after this week has disappeared further over the horizon
  • I'm definitely voting LD now

    @DominicBuxton
    The @LibDems smashing the blue wall (Fisted hand)(Large orange diamond)
    https://twitter.com/DominicBuxton/status/1439594734176149507
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,346

    Farooq said:

    There's a new thread but I can't post on it.

    Same. I'll post my comment here instead:

    It's tedious that everything comes back to Brexit. We need to find better ways to talk about politics that don't always involve that fucking referendum, or we are going to get nowhere.

    That means you, Scott_xp, that means you Casino_Royale, that means you, Big_G_Northwales, that means you Mike_Smithson.
    The point is it does and from those who want to rejoin

    I am very content to move past Brexit which after this week has disappeared further over the horizon
    Yet you are stuck on it constantly.
  • malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    29,612 cases, 56 deaths.

    Reduction in cases levelling off. England cases up week on week today.

    Is ~25-30k cases a day the background level we will have have to expect for the foreseeable future?

    I think so, certainly for the next 2-3 months with an average in excess of 100 a day of deaths within 28 days. It's a long way from where we were at the trough.
    This'll be confusing for Malc - you're admitting having been at the trough, but you're not a Westminster politician.. disnae compute
    It's ok, I am a Tory. Malc can always come to terms with Tories being at the trough, no matter where they live.
    Bizarre conversation , I know Tories will always be head deep in the trough if not immersed totally. Not sure how that conflates with covid deaths though.
    David said "when we were at the trough"

    Your past performance led me to believe you might get triggered ;)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,461
    IshmaelZ said:

    On trans rights, my girlfriend is a northern, non-university educated red waller and she has absolutely zero fears about trans rights eroding feminism or safe spaces for women or whatever. There is definitely a generational divide on this, which is probably down to the younger generation growing up in a culture of much more equality than there was before.

    Assume she has no plans to go to prison or take part in elite sport, then. Please don't try to generation gap this, I really want brought up in a culture of inequality and intolerance.
    I didn't give my opinion or anything, I merely expressed an observation. Deny it all you want.
This discussion has been closed.