Better Together: Olympic edition – politicalbetting.com

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

In favour of Harris?

Leon said:

Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?

For a bit of context, the fall of South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the spring of 1975 was seen as a big advance for "global Communism" (there was little distinction between the Moscow and Beijing brands for all the USSR and China had almost got into a full-scale shooting war in 1969).

It was that moment when Communism seemed to have momentum and modernity and the West, especially the US, was in introspective retreat. The dominos were falling, what would happen next?

When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979 (remember that?), everyone thought this was the precursor to a push for a "warm water port" either by invading and partitioning either Iran or Pakistan. The fact Moscow had intervened as a knee-jerk reaction to events in Iran and a real fear Islamic fundamentalism would sweep the central Asian Soviet Republics wasn't realised in the West.

Between Afghanistan and Poland, Moscow looked again to be on the march but in fact both were symbols of weakness which would be ruthlessly exploited by Reagan, Thatcher and others in the 1980s to the inevitable retrenchment of Russian power in 1989 (which included withdrawing from Afghanistan).

Now, it's slightly different - Iran and Afghanistan nearly went to war in 1998 so don't assume Tehran is happy with events in Afghanistan. The Wakhan Corridor borders Xinjiang province with its large ethnic populations and the last thing China will need is an Islamic fundamentalist regime on its border.

The only real "friend" the new Afghan state has is Pakistan.

TheScreamingEagles said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

Up there with your the SNP won't be the largest party at Holyrood prediction from earlier on this year.

It was hyperbole. God PB is autistic

Biden probably isn't even aware this is going on. He's probably eating ice cream out of a bucket with a big plastic spoon in Camp David watching re-runs of Cheers

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Fog of war. No command and control system. Just restless young men seizing the day.

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

And kill thousands of civilians?

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?

All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.

And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

The Taliban can take control of a country in less time than it takes MPs to get themselves to Westminster.

contrarian said:

https://babylonbee.com/news/cnn-praises-taliban-for-wearing-masks-during-attack

For a moment there....

They'll be describing it as a 'mostly peaceful transfer of power' soon.

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Well that decision has already been made. There's a huge assault tomorrow or it won't happen.

The British Army should be big enough to do such a thing. It's clearly not though.

We should always check that the Taliban are people we want to fight.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

No. Biden just wanted to be fully out by the 20th anniversary of 9/11 so he could frame it as job done and draw a line under the war on terror.

He’s a fool.

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

HYUFD said:

bigjohnowls said:

POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

✅ Yes: 23%
❌ No: 53%

Amongst Labour voters:

✅ Yes: 20%
❌ No: 56%

Via
@YouGov
, 13 August 2021

Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again

You are wrong of course as usual.

Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion

Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.

America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.

So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic

The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.

Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go

The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?

The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.

But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.

IshmaelZ said:

Stuartinromford said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?

All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.

And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.

It's fine

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.

Perhaps not tactful to mention Kipling in the current circs, after the last time old Rudyard had an outing in a political context.

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.

Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.

maaarsh said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

So you think this is the best possible execution of withdrawal, or he just couldn't be bothered to do it a bit better? What would a careless withdrawal have looked like?

No - I was just asking a question

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.

WhisperingOracle said:

Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.

Yes, Khan is going to be a key figure in how things play out, across the region in the coming weeks and months. Wouldn’t want to be in his shoes today.

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

HYUFD said:

bigjohnowls said:

POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

✅ Yes: 23%
❌ No: 53%

Amongst Labour voters:

✅ Yes: 20%
❌ No: 56%

Via
@YouGov
, 13 August 2021

Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again

You are wrong of course as usual.

Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion

Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.

America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.

So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic

The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.

Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go

The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?

The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.

But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.

Actually, looking at these images coming out of modern Afghanistan, bombing the country "back into the Neolithic" would require three or four small grenades to take out two pizza shacks and that one decent toilet in Kandahar, so my statement is probably not the horrifically callous remark you perceive

Sandpit said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.

Yes, Khan is going to be a key figure in how things play out, across the region in the coming weeks and months. Wouldn’t want to be in his shoes today.

He's a competent all-rounder.

Sandpit said:

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.

Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.

Wasn't there at least one PR person in the Pentagon saying "Er, can't we have some helicopters that are just a bit less Chinooky? And do they REALLY have to land on the roof of the Embassy?"

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

bigjohnowls said:

HYUFD said:

bigjohnowls said:

POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

✅ Yes: 23%
❌ No: 53%

Amongst Labour voters:

✅ Yes: 20%
❌ No: 56%

Via
@YouGov
, 13 August 2021

Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again

You are wrong of course as usual.

Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion

Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.

America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.

So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic

The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.

Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go

The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?

The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.

But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.

It's easily justifiable as 9/11 being an act-of-war-by-proxy - the terrorist group that committed the atrocity was protected, aided and abetted by a government.

Carnyx said:

Sandpit said:

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.

Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.

The Tehran hostages affair was also one in which helicopters, crashed this time, played a very visible and photogenic part.

Black Hawk Down, in Mogadishu, was another. Iconic photographs of the failures of modern warfare.

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

Omnium said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.

Taz said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Stuartinromford said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?

All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.

And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.

I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.

As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds

And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD

So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?

And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Stuartinromford said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?

All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.

And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.

I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.

As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds

And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD

So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?

And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?

Is 911/2 more or less likely due to our reckless intervention there ?

It was less likely because of our intervention which removed Al Qaeda from the country and saw Bin Laden killed, it is more likely post withdrawal if it becomes a failed terrorist state again

Pant is not the ideal batsman to save a Test.

My chance of a winning bet on the draw looking less good all of a sudden

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

The Taliban are now in the presidential palace. They have full control. But do they?

And even if they do, many of their extremists would love to capture a whole load of western hostages. Gives them enormous leverage. So, yes, they must be tempted to take out the airport

Big_G_NorthWales said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Stuartinromford said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament

Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?

All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.

And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.

I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.

As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds

And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD

So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?

And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?

I do not want UK military in Afghanistan - your gung-ho solution requires an indefinite military presence that will not see support from UK voters

And let us not forget, your hero Trump started the withdrawal

No, you want to hand it on a plate back to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

The pubic's views are volatile, after 9/11 they overwhelmingly backed the invasion, now they are war wary, however if this withdrawal leads to 9/11 2 they will back intervention again and we will be back at square 1.

I have already said Romney, who opposes withdrawal, would do a better job than Biden and Trump on this

WhisperingOracle said:

Omnium said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.

Let's just hope that the Taliban decide that there's no point in engaging with forces that are so firmly running away.

IshmaelZ said:

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

Can I just point out the derivation is helico (whirly, like a helix) pter (wing, as in pterodactyl), so copter is a barbarous abbreviation?

You mean it should be pronounced with a silent 'p'?

Omnium said:

WhisperingOracle said:

Omnium said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.

Let's just hope that the Taliban decide that there's no point in engaging with forces that are so firmly running away.

Sadly wishful thinking, there is a real chance the Taliban will now not only engage but pursue a massacre and mass executions, including of westerners not evacuated by then and all and anyone associated with the previous government as a means of imposing their rule by fear again

India 167/5.

darkage said:

Omnium said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?

Maybe they already did.

I have NO idea if this is true, but his feed is interesting



Warren Platts
@WarrenPlatts
@zerohedge
Scoop for you: Kabul airport just got overran about 20 minutes ago..

https://twitter.com/WarrenPlatts/status/1426946659783790601?s=20

WhisperingOracle said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

I very much hope the Taliban stay away from the airport for as long as possible.

They'll leave the airport alone. Any gunfire nearby is the product of a few hotheads. They no doubt want the foreigners gone: they've nothing to gain from provoking the Americans into launching mass bombing raids.

Hopefully they'll then have enough control over their own territory to prevent jihadist groups re-establishing and using the country as a base to plan and execute atrocities abroad. The Taliban aren't completely stupid. They must realise that if they don't cause problems abroad they'll be left to inflict whatever brutalities they desire at home. Nobody is going to launch another military intervention in Afghanistan to save it from itself.

Andy_JS said:

India 167/5.

Indian independence 74 years ago today.

darkage said:

Omnium said:

darkage said:

Omnium said:

Leon said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Sandpit said:

Leon said:

If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF

America will have to go back in with a huge show of power

Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.

Just a thought

What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan

I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did

They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.

Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago

They fucked it up

"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."

https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20

This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.

That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?

My guess.

Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.

For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.

How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?

You'd need to secure the area around the runway to stop light flak, of the kind often mounted on pickups, and man-portable AA missiles taking out the planes when they are low and slow on their approach or takeoff. Especially if civilian - not trained or equipped to do evasive action, use decoy flares, have IR jammers, etc. I would not like to be holding the perimeter on that sort of situation - even hasving a helicopter to jump into wouldn't get you very far unless it had the range to get to a neighbouring state.

Leon said:

Aslan said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it

Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?

You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.

Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?

What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.

But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing

Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face

And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth

I think Trump is one of the most unpleasant men ever to hold elected office in the West, if not the most.

However, not everything he did or called was wrong just because he was Trump and, by the same token, not everything his opponents said or did in opposition was right.

Foreign policy isn't easy - you can be damned if you do, and damned if you don't - but in recent years I think the West usually has more robust leadership when the Republicans are in the Oval Office.

Both Biden and Obama proved to be wet.

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.

Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.

I'm not saying this isn't a big and bad story for Joe Biden. It's certainly the 1st and (right now) the 2nd too. What I'm taking issue with is the ludicrous assertions of his presidency being defined and doomed by it. And I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that most of this is coming from people who have been strikingly jaundiced against Biden for a long time.

LBJ and Nixon and Ford were defined by Vietnam ( LBJ by civil rights and the Great Society and Nixon by Watergate too), Carter by the Iran hostage crisis, Reagan by setting the stage to end the Cold War, Bush 41 by the Gulf War and breaking his tax pledge, Bill Clinton by Monica, Dubya by 9/11 and his response to it, Obama by being the first black president and Obamacare, Trump by his failure on Covid.

Biden will almost certainly be defined by this unless he does something spectacular in the rest of his term

Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.

Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.

Casino_Royale said:

Leon said:

Aslan said:

Leon said:

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it

Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?

You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.

Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?

What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.

But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing

Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face

And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth

I think Trump is one of the most unpleasant men ever to hold elected office in the West, if not the most.

However, not everything he did or called was wrong just because he was Trump and, by the same token, not everything his opponents said or did in opposition was right.

Foreign policy isn't easy - you can be damned if you do, and damned if you don't - but I think the West usually has more robust leadership when the Republicans are in the Oval Office.

I can't see anything robust about Trump's deal to free 5000 taliban commanders and set an exit date. As I remember, before Trump's presidency, Obama, Clinton and Biden all wanted to keep that small, but crucial, residual skeleton force in place in Afghanistan.

Trump announced the withdrawal on a whim for social media clicks, and short-term shoring up of his America First base before an election, which isn't what I would call robust leadership.

Philip_Thompson said:

Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.

Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.

I've just checked my brother's login, which I use sometimes, and it appears to be working fine.

Gallowgate said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.

Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.

I've just checked my brother's login, which I use sometimes, and it appears to be working fine.

Can I trouble you for some advice.

Are there any restaurants in/near Newcastle train station?

HYUFD said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

kinabalu said:

Leon said:

kinabalu said:

Sandpit said:

eek said:

Sandpit said:

What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.

Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.

The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.

You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html

Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.

And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.

The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.

When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.

Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.

I'm not saying this isn't a big and bad story for Joe Biden. It's certainly the 1st and (right now) the 2nd too. What I'm taking issue with is the ludicrous assertions of his presidency being defined and doomed by it. And I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that most of this is coming from people who have been strikingly jaundiced against Biden for a long time.

LBJ and Nixon and Ford were defined by Vietnam ( LBJ by civil rights and the Great Society and Nixon by Watergate too), Carter by the Iran hostage crisis, Reagan by setting the stage to end the Cold War, Bush 41 by the Gulf War and breaking his tax pledge, Bill Clinton by Monica, Dubya by 9/11 and his response to it, Obama by being the first black president and Obamacare, Trump by his failure on Covid.

Biden will almost certainly be defined by this unless he does something spectacular in the rest of his term

You have said he already is the worst president in100 years

DavidL said:

I speculated at the time of the Olympics that the success of Team GB with a disproportionate number of Scots proudly wearing the badge and waving the Union Jack just might have some effect. We are about to get a repeat for the para-Olympics.

We shall see. The list of obvious gains from the Union (vaccines, furlough, economic growth) is pretty strong at the moment but there is a lot of emotion in play.

You joined the fantasy as well now David.