Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.
Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.
How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
For anyone too young to remember, this is the other way to leave:
Did you just join as a member then? How did you get into the current position
Back in 2011 The Times went behind a paywall and I was a subscriber (still am) and Mike wasn't.
At the time The Times used to commission a monthly Populus phone poll (which Mike rated highly), every Sunday there'd be an extended YouGov on most of the week's events, and a regular Ipsos MORI phone poll on Scotland so I used to email them to Mike when they appeared.
He and I then started discussing the polls and other stories, via email and phone, The Times did some excellent work on Chris Huhne, I pointed out to Mike that Huhne was screwed and his defence was rubbish but the CPS works slower than the media expects which led to kerching time.
Then in March 2012 Mike rang me and said he was going on holiday in a couple of months and would I like to edit PB in his absence.
So really you can thank Rupert Murdoch and Chris Huhne for me getting the gig.
Those were the days.
Well done 👍
I miss those days as well, the days when the omnishambles budget was the apotheosis of a government screw up.
Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.
Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.
How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
Bullshit.
I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time," Mr Trump added. "If bad things happen, we'll go back with a force like no-one's ever seen.
The Taleban haven't kept a single line of that agreement, but not only did Trump not change his mind on withdrawal, four weeks ago he was criticising Biden for withdrawing too slowly.
The simple truth is that we kept soldiers there or we handed the country to the Taleban. The failure to build a functioning civil society since 2001 meant there were no other options.
At one point there was talk of restoring the monarchy:
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
(Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)
Revolution - baled out by the French
1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.
Civil War - managed to beat themselves.
Their most constant successes come against Spanish speaking countries (Mexico, Spanish-American War etc)
One of the odd things about enduring US attitudes is the lack of gratitude to the French. Americans love remorselessly taking the piss out of the French yet without them, they’d all be Canadians.
Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.
Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.
How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
For anyone too young to remember, this is the other way to leave:
Interesting that Najibullah held on for a good bit after the Soviets left. His eventual fate may have influenced Ghani's sharpish departure, though Wiki tells me Najibullah was offered a free pass out of Afghanistan but refused it.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely
Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.
The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.
And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.
Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
(Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)
Revolution - baled out by the French
1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.
Civil War - managed to beat themselves.
Their most constant successes come against Spanish speaking countries (Mexico, Spanish-American War etc)
One of the odd things about enduring US attitudes is the lack of gratitude to the French. Americans love remorselessly taking the piss out of the French yet without them, they’d all be Canadians.
Ah, the great Michael Flanders line when performing on Broadway: 'If it wasn't for the English, you'd all be Spanish!'
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
That’s almost a sensible point. Progress is progress.
The second Iraq war was transparently waged for utterly irrational, and dishonest, personal reasons, which was never going to end well.
Did you just join as a member then? How did you get into the current position
Back in 2011 The Times went behind a paywall and I was a subscriber (still am) and Mike wasn't.
At the time The Times used to commission a monthly Populus phone poll (which Mike rated highly), every Sunday there'd be an extended YouGov on most of the week's events, and a regular Ipsos MORI phone poll on Scotland so I used to email them to Mike when they appeared.
He and I then started discussing the polls and other stories, via email and phone, The Times did some excellent work on Chris Huhne, I pointed out to Mike that Huhne was screwed and his defence was rubbish but the CPS works slower than the media expects which led to kerching time.
Then in March 2012 Mike rang me and said he was going on holiday in a couple of months and would I like to edit PB in his absence.
So really you can thank Rupert Murdoch and Chris Huhne for me getting the gig.
Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.
Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.
How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
They also want (or at least refuse to rule out when questioned) immediate full-fat sharia law, incl hand-chopping and stoning, and educating girls to be OK only up to age 12.
They are also dependant on an estimated 10,000 foreign jihadi fighters, some of their best troops, veterans of AQ and IS, who will not now shuffle quietly into retirement, to grow tomatoes
The Taliban will need to satisfy them. We know how this plays out
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely
Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.
The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.
And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.
Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.
Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.
We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
Johnson is a bit of a loner, socially and politically. He doesn’t have a clear group of friends. Neither does he hail from a particular political faction.
He is heading for a stand-off with many of his backbenchers on green issues as the UK prepares to host the Cop26 UN climate summit in Glasgow. It’s not clear whether he has realised quite how widespread the worry is within his own party about the direction he is heading in on climate change policies. It’s not even clear whether he understands what the nub of the problem is.
Johnson’s lack of understanding of how deep the worry runs in his party has been made much worse by the distance imposed by Covid. That he had to spend the final week of term in self-isolation meant that he missed a number of important opportunities to bond with his MPs. He was supposed to attend the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbenchers, but ended up having to speak to them over Zoom, a format he has never managed to make work for him.
Similarly, he missed end-of-term receptions in parliament, where he could have got much more of a feeling for where his MPs were emotionally. Now, as the summer starts to draw to an end, he faces being hit by a barrage of frustration when he comes back to Westminster in September. The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
(Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)
Revolution - baled out by the French
1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.
In 1812 the Americans were beaten by the British, with ships and troops from the British Isles. The Canadian claim towards it is entirely manufactured.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely
Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.
The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.
And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.
Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.
Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.
We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
Johnson is a bit of a loner, socially and politically. He doesn’t have a clear group of friends. Neither does he hail from a particular political faction.
He is heading for a stand-off with many of his backbenchers on green issues as the UK prepares to host the Cop26 UN climate summit in Glasgow. It’s not clear whether he has realised quite how widespread the worry is within his own party about the direction he is heading in on climate change policies. It’s not even clear whether he understands what the nub of the problem is.
Johnson’s lack of understanding of how deep the worry runs in his party has been made much worse by the distance imposed by Covid. That he had to spend the final week of term in self-isolation meant that he missed a number of important opportunities to bond with his MPs. He was supposed to attend the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbenchers, but ended up having to speak to them over Zoom, a format he has never managed to make work for him.
Similarly, he missed end-of-term receptions in parliament, where he could have got much more of a feeling for where his MPs were emotionally. Now, as the summer starts to draw to an end, he faces being hit by a barrage of frustration when he comes back to Westminster in September. The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.
How is Johnson's green agenda, or anybody else's green agenda going to help us defend ourselves and our way of life in what we now know is becoming a dangerously unstable and hostile world?
It's a longstanding nickname for the owner of this website.
But why, how did it come to be
"I will not be put to the question. Don't you consider, Sir, that these are not the manners of a gentleman ? I will not be baited with what and why; what is this? what is that? why is a cow's tail long? why is a fox's tail bushy ?" [Johnson to Boswell, Life of Johnson].
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely
Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.
The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.
And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.
Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.
Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.
We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely
Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.
The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.
And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.
Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.
Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.
We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
With CNN and MSNBC providing the role of Sir Robin's minstrels...
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
Does it matter, as long as it's long way from anywhere important?
He's probably learning to his own surprise that the Taleban are Muslims.
Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.
Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.
How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
Bullshit.
I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time," Mr Trump added. "If bad things happen, we'll go back with a force like no-one's ever seen.
The Taleban haven't kept a single line of that agreement, but not only did Trump not change his mind on withdrawal, four weeks ago he was criticising Biden for withdrawing too slowly.
The simple truth is that we kept soldiers there or we handed the country to the Taleban. The failure to build a functioning civil society since 2001 meant there were no other options.
In that case there was absolutely nothing Biden could have done because Trump already got the best deal available. Not sure I fully agree, but it doesn't change the main outcome in any case.
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end." That'll show 'em.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
Raab has flown home from hols and is talking to some Afghan dude, appaz.
Quite what any of them can do, I dunno. Tho I suppose they could make themselves look even stupider, like SoS Blinken in the USA:
"#BREAKING US Sec. of State Blinken insists Afghan mission 'successful', rejects comparison between Kabul and Saigon"
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end." That'll show 'em.
One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end." That'll show 'em.
One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
I think Starmer is crap. Bit of a stretch to assign him any blame for Afghanistan, mind.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
Public support is fickle. People who once cried "get out of Afghanistan..." will soon be appending "... but not like that."
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
Perhaps the mistake was what happened in the intervening 20 years?
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Afghanistan being a red country, I guess anybody evacuated from there is a due a ten day isolation period in one of our lovely covid hotels, including the SAS troopers doing the evacuating. Otherwise they might be bringing in the Jalalabad variant.
Can we debrief our guys? Or send them on another mission?
No they are in isolation. But you can use Zoom....
Afghanistan being a red country, I guess anybody evacuated from there is a due a ten day isolation period in one of our lovely covid hotels, including the SAS troopers doing the evacuating. Otherwise they might be bringing in the Jalalabad variant.
Can we debrief our guys? Or send them on another mission?
No they are in isolation. But you can use Zoom....
You do realise there are exemptions to quarantine requirements, don't you?
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Can't wait to read John Gray's analysis of what's happening in Afghanistan.
Not much to wait for - he basically predicted it all 20 or so years ago.
I suppose the main question left for him is whether western societies actually go on in any form at all or whether they will completely collapse in the face of more powerful and coherant adverseries?
Certainly he had some optimism about Brexit and Trump representing the seeds of a viable post liberal society: yet this must have been severely dashed in 2020 by the woke transformation of society and the aggressive resurgence of progress as a religion.
I don't think he has much left to say - other than we're all fucked.
Interesting. John Gray usually finds something new to write about a topic.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
Perhaps the mistake was what happened in the intervening 20 years?
HYUFD supports the forever war. He thinks we should be there in perpetuity. And presumably in any other place where terrorists have breeding grounds. Welcome to the new imperialism.
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
Public support is fickle. People who once cried "get out of Afghanistan..." will soon be appending "... but not like that."
First in that queue being Donald Trump no doubt.
"Joe's a LOSER and nobody respects him. I would've got us out of there but made the Talibans behave because Talibans respect WINNERS."
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Tim David is an Australian player - born in Singapore, but plays in Australia and, I think, is now qualified to play for that country. He's been around a while mainly as a T20 player over there.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
Possibly, if he's an Aussie. I didn't realise that.
He's very good whichever country he's from.
Surrey have another couple to watch though. Ryan Patel and Jamie Smith - a 21 year old wicketkeeper batsman captain. In fact, I'm surprised they're in the playoffs.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end." That'll show 'em.
One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.
They're not his policies, they are Carrie's policies...
Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower
They've been involved in four really big ground wars:
Korea: won (or at least a score draw) Vietnam: lost Iraq: lost, narrowly Afghanistan: lost
You forget Grenada! "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"
Oh, and Panama.
Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily
Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation
So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again
Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
Look we all know your analysis is rather low IQ, but please don't demean it further by adding in childishness too. I feel the cringe on your behalf.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
He wasn't an MP in 2011, it is staggering how little you know about Labour politics.
Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
Did anyone know who he was in 2003?
18 years later we are none the wiser.
Those of us who always knew he would be a useless nonentity had a terrible choice in 2020 I voted for Nandy who would have been least useless and only a bit of a non entity compared to her 2 opponents.
The lack of strategic thinking and even basic nous among contemporary Western leaders is very disturbing.
The strategic thinking of the Taliban turned out to be far superior: lie low, disengage, organise and be prepared. Lull Kabul and Washington into a false sense of security and wait for the day. If they'd been more active over the last few years they'd still be bogged down in a shooting war. Instead, they get a walk over. Pity about the Afghans who relied on us to protect them.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Feels more like Carter being humiliated in 1980 over Tehran hostages.
There may yet be hostages in Kabul. They still haven't got everybody out
Disclose.tv @disclosetv · 31m JUST IN - U.S. Embassy in #Kabul issues security alert: "Reports of the airport taking fire. Shelter in place. Do not come to the Embassy or airport at this time."
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The Taliban were not routed and Al Q were not scattered.
Al Qaeda simply stepped over the border into Pakistan and the Taliban put down their guns and looked like locals (because they are).
The invasion plan basically allowed both the Taliban and Al Qaeda to fuck off with minimal disruption by design.
I do get the feeling that Biden is now finished in terms of re-election. Difficult to be optimistic but here is an attempt. This jolts US into more unity against external threats and this is harnessed by a competent presidential candidate who is centrist domestically but willing to lead battles for Western interests and values.
The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
Possibly, if he's an Aussie. I didn't realise that.
He's very good whichever country he's from.
Surrey have another couple to watch though. Ryan Patel and Jamie Smith - a 21 year old wicketkeeper batsman captain. In fact, I'm surprised they're in the playoffs.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
I said you were biased against the left, I didn't say you preferred every right winger to every left winger. Trump was so laughably catastrophic not just as a president but as a functioning human person, anyone with intelligence, as you clearly have, is going to have to rate him very low, regardless of bias.
So you want to keep American troops in their thousands in Afghanistan indefinitely? What happened to we should have left 15-20 years ago?
I do get the feeling that Biden is now finished in terms of re-election. Difficult to be optimistic but here is an attempt. This jolts US into more unity against external threats and this is harnessed by a competent presidential candidate who is centrist domestically but willing to lead battles for Western interests and values.
Biden could be finished period.
The handful of friendly republicans and cohort of moderate dems underpinning him are not going to like this. Not going to like this one bit.
Comments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zahir_Shah
Seems like a long time ago.
The second Iraq war was transparently waged for utterly irrational, and dishonest, personal reasons, which was never going to end well.
The Taliban will need to satisfy them. We know how this plays out
@BBCWorld
"Women can have access to education"
Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen told the BBC that people in Kabul have no need to worry and their properties and lives are safe
https://bbc.in/2VRapVU"
https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1426917532020133888
This David feller looks a bit useful. Dark horse for England one-day side to Oz, perhaps? Averaging 78 in the tournament so far.
Edit - a much needed breakthrough but surely far too late at 92/3 after less than 15 overs.
Where's the bridge they have for sale?
"Seeing Taliban fighters on streets in kabul now. Armed."
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1426912830532554756?s=20
Sana Safi ثنا ساپۍ
@BBCSanaSafi
·
15m
Shooting heard in Kabul
Shooting is being reported in several parts of Kabul, Reuters reports, citing witnesses and the interior ministry.
https://twitter.com/BBCSanaSafi/status/1426914881442304003?s=20
The first reprisals?
Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.
We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
Johnson is a bit of a loner, socially and politically. He doesn’t have a clear group of friends. Neither does he hail from a particular political faction.
He is heading for a stand-off with many of his backbenchers on green issues as the UK prepares to host the Cop26 UN climate summit in Glasgow. It’s not clear whether he has realised quite how widespread the worry is within his own party about the direction he is heading in on climate change policies. It’s not even clear whether he understands what the nub of the problem is.
Johnson’s lack of understanding of how deep the worry runs in his party has been made much worse by the distance imposed by Covid. That he had to spend the final week of term in self-isolation meant that he missed a number of important opportunities to bond with his MPs. He was supposed to attend the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbenchers, but ended up having to speak to them over Zoom, a format he has never managed to make work for him.
Similarly, he missed end-of-term receptions in parliament, where he could have got much more of a feeling for where his MPs were emotionally. Now, as the summer starts to draw to an end, he faces being hit by a barrage of frustration when he comes back to Westminster in September. The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.
This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
Battery operated personnel carriers?
'Clean' fighter jets?
Socially distanced gender neutral troop formations?
'Sorry Petunia our drones can't fly today because the wind turbines can't provide enough lecky...'
It just did.
Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
He just looks an extraordinary talent.
Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
He's probably learning to his own surprise that the Taleban are Muslims.
https://twitter.com/Rimmy_Downunder/status/1426838276703330310
England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
That'll show 'em.
Quite what any of them can do, I dunno. Tho I suppose they could make themselves look even stupider, like SoS Blinken in the USA:
"#BREAKING US Sec. of State Blinken insists Afghan mission 'successful', rejects comparison between Kabul and Saigon"
https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1426899061953769474?s=20
"Successful"
I'd be fascinated to know what he regards as "failure"
Do you work for the DfE or ECB?
Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
Bit of a stretch to assign him any blame for Afghanistan, mind.
✅ Yes: 23%
❌ No: 53%
Amongst Labour voters:
✅ Yes: 20%
❌ No: 56%
Via
@YouGov
, 13 August 2021
Jezza voted against intervention in 2011
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
[Puts on Friday I'm In Love at tempo di sturbdeneighbours volume to mark the occasion]
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20
And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT
"Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Can we debrief our guys? Or send them on another mission?
No they are in isolation. But you can use Zoom....
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
"Joe's a LOSER and nobody respects him. I would've got us out of there but made the Talibans behave because Talibans respect WINNERS."
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
He's very good whichever country he's from.
Surrey have another couple to watch though. Ryan Patel and Jamie Smith - a 21 year old wicketkeeper batsman captain. In fact, I'm surprised they're in the playoffs.
SKS has been on holiday for 15 months I think
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
Those of us who always knew he would be a useless nonentity had a terrible choice in 2020 I voted for Nandy who would have been least useless and only a bit of a non entity compared to her 2 opponents.
Disclose.tv
@disclosetv
·
31m
JUST IN - U.S. Embassy in #Kabul issues security alert: "Reports of the airport taking fire. Shelter in place. Do not come to the Embassy or airport at this time."
Al Qaeda simply stepped over the border into Pakistan and the Taliban put down their guns and looked like locals (because they are).
The invasion plan basically allowed both the Taliban and Al Qaeda to fuck off with minimal disruption by design.
https://twitter.com/gerry18960750/status/1426847045818757121?s=20
So you want to keep American troops in their thousands in Afghanistan indefinitely? What happened to we should have left 15-20 years ago?
Andrew Neil
@afneil
·
2m
US evacuation of its nationals from Kabul now described as frenzied. Reports of gunfire at the airport.
The handful of friendly republicans and cohort of moderate dems underpinning him are not going to like this. Not going to like this one bit.
And Spurs look poor with 21% possession