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Better Together: Olympic edition – politicalbetting.com

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,201

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.

    Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.

    How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
    For anyone too young to remember, this is the other way to leave:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_withdrawal_from_Afghanistan
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TloX664a_JQ&ab_channel=Pulpstars
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    Is TSE related to Mike, I get confused

    No.

    Robert (RCS1000) is Mike's son.
    Did you just join as a member then? How did you get into the current position
    Back in 2011 The Times went behind a paywall and I was a subscriber (still am) and Mike wasn't.

    At the time The Times used to commission a monthly Populus phone poll (which Mike rated highly), every Sunday there'd be an extended YouGov on most of the week's events, and a regular Ipsos MORI phone poll on Scotland so I used to email them to Mike when they appeared.

    He and I then started discussing the polls and other stories, via email and phone, The Times did some excellent work on Chris Huhne, I pointed out to Mike that Huhne was screwed and his defence was rubbish but the CPS works slower than the media expects which led to kerching time.

    Then in March 2012 Mike rang me and said he was going on holiday in a couple of months and would I like to edit PB in his absence.

    So really you can thank Rupert Murdoch and Chris Huhne for me getting the gig.
    Those were the days.

    Well done 👍
    I miss those days as well, the days when the omnishambles budget was the apotheosis of a government screw up.
    Bring Back the Pasty Tax!
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    IanB2 said:

    Anglosphere* medal tally @Tokyo:

    Gold 94
    Silver 81
    Bronze 97
    TOTAL 272

    EU** medal tally @Tokyo:

    Gold 83
    Silver 94
    Bronze 107
    TOTAL 284

    (* USA, Eng+Sco+Wal+NI, Canada, Australia, NZ and Ireland)
    (** excluding Ireland)

    When we come to add in the forthcoming winter tallies, the EU will surely come out ahead.
    Yes, though worth pointing out that Norway came top last time out.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,263
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.

    Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.

    How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
    Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
    Bullshit.

    I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time," Mr Trump added. "If bad things happen, we'll go back with a force like no-one's ever seen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51689443

    The Taleban haven't kept a single line of that agreement, but not only did Trump not change his mind on withdrawal, four weeks ago he was criticising Biden for withdrawing too slowly.

    The simple truth is that we kept soldiers there or we handed the country to the Taleban. The failure to build a functioning civil society since 2001 meant there were no other options.
    At one point there was talk of restoring the monarchy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Zahir_Shah

    Seems like a long time ago.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    (Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)

    Revolution - baled out by the French

    1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.

    Civil War - managed to beat themselves.

    Their most constant successes come against Spanish speaking countries (Mexico, Spanish-American War etc)
    One of the odd things about enduring US attitudes is the lack of gratitude to the French. Americans love remorselessly taking the piss out of the French yet without them, they’d all be Canadians.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,988
    edited August 2021

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.

    Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.

    How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
    For anyone too young to remember, this is the other way to leave:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_withdrawal_from_Afghanistan
    Interesting that Najibullah held on for a good bit after the Soviets left. His eventual fate may have influenced Ghani's sharpish departure, though Wiki tells me Najibullah was offered a free pass out of Afghanistan but refused it.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely

    Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.

    The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.

    And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.

    Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IanB2 said:

    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    (Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)

    Revolution - baled out by the French

    1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.

    Civil War - managed to beat themselves.

    Their most constant successes come against Spanish speaking countries (Mexico, Spanish-American War etc)
    One of the odd things about enduring US attitudes is the lack of gratitude to the French. Americans love remorselessly taking the piss out of the French yet without them, they’d all be Canadians.
    Ah, the great Michael Flanders line when performing on Broadway: 'If it wasn't for the English, you'd all be Spanish!'
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation
    That’s almost a sensible point. Progress is progress.

    The second Iraq war was transparently waged for utterly irrational, and dishonest, personal reasons, which was never going to end well.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Leon has pointed out how the US mainstream media has turned against Biden, and it is quite remarkable.

    CNN really indignant and roasting Blinken this morning. I guess they don't care what ice cream Joe eats any more.

    They are out of touch with Real Americans though so can be ignored.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    FF43 said:

    Is TSE related to Mike, I get confused

    No.

    Robert (RCS1000) is Mike's son.
    Did you just join as a member then? How did you get into the current position
    Back in 2011 The Times went behind a paywall and I was a subscriber (still am) and Mike wasn't.

    At the time The Times used to commission a monthly Populus phone poll (which Mike rated highly), every Sunday there'd be an extended YouGov on most of the week's events, and a regular Ipsos MORI phone poll on Scotland so I used to email them to Mike when they appeared.

    He and I then started discussing the polls and other stories, via email and phone, The Times did some excellent work on Chris Huhne, I pointed out to Mike that Huhne was screwed and his defence was rubbish but the CPS works slower than the media expects which led to kerching time.

    Then in March 2012 Mike rang me and said he was going on holiday in a couple of months and would I like to edit PB in his absence.

    So really you can thank Rupert Murdoch and Chris Huhne for me getting the gig.
    We need a party to celebrate your ten years!
    I'll bring the pineapple pizza.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    IshmaelZ said:

    Our Genial Host - ? Reference I don't get?

    Not specifically, AFAIK. Think of him as landlord of the virtual pub which is PB.
    When he bans people he screams ‘get aaaht a my pab’
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.

    Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.

    How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
    Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
    They also want (or at least refuse to rule out when questioned) immediate full-fat sharia law, incl hand-chopping and stoning, and educating girls to be OK only up to age 12.
    They are also dependant on an estimated 10,000 foreign jihadi fighters, some of their best troops, veterans of AQ and IS, who will not now shuffle quietly into retirement, to grow tomatoes

    The Taliban will need to satisfy them. We know how this plays out
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,988
    IshmaelZ said:

    Our Genial Host - ? Reference I don't get?

    Not specifically, AFAIK. Think of him as landlord of the virtual pub which is PB.
    'You're barred!'
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    "BBC News (World)
    @BBCWorld

    "Women can have access to education"

    Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen told the BBC that people in Kabul have no need to worry and their properties and lives are safe

    https://bbc.in/2VRapVU"

    https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1426917532020133888
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2021
    Surrey waltzing to victory here.

    This David feller looks a bit useful. Dark horse for England one-day side to Oz, perhaps? Averaging 78 in the tournament so far.

    Edit - a much needed breakthrough but surely far too late at 92/3 after less than 15 overs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    Andy_JS said:

    "BBC News (World)
    @BBCWorld

    "Women can have access to education"

    Taliban spokesman Suhail Shaheen told the BBC that people in Kabul have no need to worry and their properties and lives are safe

    https://bbc.in/2VRapVU"

    https://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/1426917532020133888

    Yeah right. I'll believe that when I believe in green pixies.

    Where's the bridge they have for sale?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Ominous

    "Seeing Taliban fighters on streets in kabul now. Armed."

    https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1426912830532554756?s=20


    Sana Safi ثنا ساپۍ
    @BBCSanaSafi
    ·
    15m
    Shooting heard in Kabul

    Shooting is being reported in several parts of Kabul, Reuters reports, citing witnesses and the interior ministry.

    https://twitter.com/BBCSanaSafi/status/1426914881442304003?s=20


    The first reprisals?

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585

    Our Genial Host - ? Reference I don't get?

    It's a longstanding nickname for the owner of this website.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Our Genial Host - ? Reference I don't get?

    It's a longstanding nickname for the owner of this website.
    But why, how did it come to be
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely

    Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.

    The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.

    And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.

    Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
    Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.

    Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.

    We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    The Sunday Hardman:

    Johnson is a bit of a loner, socially and politically. He doesn’t have a clear group of friends. Neither does he hail from a particular political faction.

    He is heading for a stand-off with many of his backbenchers on green issues as the UK prepares to host the Cop26 UN climate summit in Glasgow. It’s not clear whether he has realised quite how widespread the worry is within his own party about the direction he is heading in on climate change policies. It’s not even clear whether he understands what the nub of the problem is.

    Johnson’s lack of understanding of how deep the worry runs in his party has been made much worse by the distance imposed by Covid. That he had to spend the final week of term in self-isolation meant that he missed a number of important opportunities to bond with his MPs. He was supposed to attend the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbenchers, but ended up having to speak to them over Zoom, a format he has never managed to make work for him.

    Similarly, he missed end-of-term receptions in parliament, where he could have got much more of a feeling for where his MPs were emotionally. Now, as the summer starts to draw to an end, he faces being hit by a barrage of frustration when he comes back to Westminster in September. The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Kane not in the squad for Tottenham today. Perhaps he's got whatever Aubameyang and Lacazette have got.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    DougSeal said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    (Typing quietly so as not to offend the wife)

    Revolution - baled out by the French

    1812 - beaten by what is now Canada, although they continue to claim victory as a result of the Battle of New Orleans, which occurred in unofficial overtime after the peace treaty was signed.
    In 1812 the Americans were beaten by the British, with ships and troops from the British Isles. The Canadian claim towards it is entirely manufactured.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely

    Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.

    The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.

    And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.

    Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
    Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.

    Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.

    We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
    Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited August 2021
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Hardman:

    Johnson is a bit of a loner, socially and politically. He doesn’t have a clear group of friends. Neither does he hail from a particular political faction.

    He is heading for a stand-off with many of his backbenchers on green issues as the UK prepares to host the Cop26 UN climate summit in Glasgow. It’s not clear whether he has realised quite how widespread the worry is within his own party about the direction he is heading in on climate change policies. It’s not even clear whether he understands what the nub of the problem is.

    Johnson’s lack of understanding of how deep the worry runs in his party has been made much worse by the distance imposed by Covid. That he had to spend the final week of term in self-isolation meant that he missed a number of important opportunities to bond with his MPs. He was supposed to attend the 1922 Committee of Conservative backbenchers, but ended up having to speak to them over Zoom, a format he has never managed to make work for him.

    Similarly, he missed end-of-term receptions in parliament, where he could have got much more of a feeling for where his MPs were emotionally. Now, as the summer starts to draw to an end, he faces being hit by a barrage of frustration when he comes back to Westminster in September. The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.

    How is Johnson's green agenda, or anybody else's green agenda going to help us defend ourselves and our way of life in what we now know is becoming a dangerously unstable and hostile world?

    Battery operated personnel carriers?

    'Clean' fighter jets?

    Socially distanced gender neutral troop formations?

    'Sorry Petunia our drones can't fly today because the wind turbines can't provide enough lecky...'
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Andy_JS said:

    Our Genial Host - ? Reference I don't get?

    It's a longstanding nickname for the owner of this website.
    But why, how did it come to be
    "I will not be put to the question. Don't you consider, Sir, that these are not the manners of a gentleman ? I will not be baited with what and why; what is this? what is that? why is a cow's tail long? why is a fox's tail bushy ?" [Johnson to Boswell, Life of Johnson].

    It just did.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    IshmaelZ said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely

    Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.

    The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.

    And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.

    Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
    Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.

    Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.

    We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
    Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
    And we all 'ate it.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Alistair said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Its also much greener to leave Afghanistan completely

    Think of the emissions if we had to keep flying all those troops and ordnance in and out of the country.

    The logistics of installing charging points so that our battery operated tanks and personnel carriers could keep moving would also be a nightmare.

    And of course mass troop movements would be difficult to manage with social distancing, masks, vaccination checks and quarantining so that Afghanistan's health service isn't overwhelmed.

    Loving you trying to attack Biden for implementing a Trump policy.
    Biden?? I couldn't give a f8ck.

    Afghanistan is a real crisis. A proper crisis. And like all proper crises, it exposes the total f8cking mindboggling insanity of the policies of all western governments. Especially in the last 18 months.

    We have expended so much treasure on bullsh8t of the first order that now, faced with a real challenge, we can do nothing.
    Do st8p doing that, it's just fucking irritating bullshit.
    And we all 'ate it.
    Point taken
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    2021 going really well, so far
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    With CNN and MSNBC providing the role of Sir Robin's minstrels...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    In happier news, Covid cases are down from last Sunday. Or are we over Covid now?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    Does it matter, as long as it's long way from anywhere important?

    He's probably learning to his own surprise that the Taleban are Muslims.
  • we done the English lad called Miles who's just been to Kabul on holiday?

    https://twitter.com/Rimmy_Downunder/status/1426838276703330310
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    ydoethur said:

    FF43 said:

    Amongst the grim regimes out there, the Taleban have a special place of horrible. No-one with an ounce of humanity can celebrate their victory. But as their victory, which to be clear is a political one, not a military one that the Americans could actually see off if they wanted to, I am not sure what Biden could have done to avoid the inevitable.

    Except possibly one thing. Which is to cut a deal with the Taleban on exit terms: we will leave you to it, now, if you allow certain things. Or you will be fighting us all the way.

    How many times do people need telling that is exactly what Trump did?
    Trump didn't get the terms, nor did he threaten the consequences of not agreeing the terms. The Taleban do appear to want international legitimacy. Put a price on that.
    Bullshit.

    I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time," Mr Trump added. "If bad things happen, we'll go back with a force like no-one's ever seen.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51689443

    The Taleban haven't kept a single line of that agreement, but not only did Trump not change his mind on withdrawal, four weeks ago he was criticising Biden for withdrawing too slowly.

    The simple truth is that we kept soldiers there or we handed the country to the Taleban. The failure to build a functioning civil society since 2001 meant there were no other options.
    In that case there was absolutely nothing Biden could have done because Trump already got the best deal available. Not sure I fully agree, but it doesn't change the main outcome in any case.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Worst news of the weekend, though, is that Simon Gallup has left The Cure
  • Ted Lasso is superb! Watching the Christmas one in August feels a bit odd though
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end."
    That'll show 'em.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    Raab has flown home from hols and is talking to some Afghan dude, appaz.

    Quite what any of them can do, I dunno. Tho I suppose they could make themselves look even stupider, like SoS Blinken in the USA:

    "#BREAKING US Sec. of State Blinken insists Afghan mission 'successful', rejects comparison between Kabul and Saigon"

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/1426899061953769474?s=20

    "Successful"


    I'd be fascinated to know what he regards as "failure"
  • dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end."
    That'll show 'em.
    One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
    Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

    Do you work for the DfE or ECB?

    Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410

    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end."
    That'll show 'em.
    One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
    I think Starmer is crap.
    Bit of a stretch to assign him any blame for Afghanistan, mind.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    2011? Do you mean 2001? Long before Starmer was in parliament.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,263
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    Public support is fickle. People who once cried "get out of Afghanistan..." will soon be appending "... but not like that."
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited August 2021

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    He wasn't an MP in 2011, it is staggering how little you know about Labour politics.

    Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DougSeal said:

    Worst news of the weekend, though, is that Simon Gallup has left The Cure

    To, what, move into a care home?

    [Puts on Friday I'm In Love at tempo di sturbdeneighbours volume to mark the occasion]
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

    https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

    And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

    "Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    He wasn't an MP in 2011, it is staggering how little you know about Labour politics.

    Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
    Did anyone know who he was in 2003? ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    HYUFD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
    Perhaps the mistake was what happened in the intervening 20 years?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,098
    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

    Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

    If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    Afghanistan being a red country, I guess anybody evacuated from there is a due a ten day isolation period in one of our lovely covid hotels, including the SAS troopers doing the evacuating. Otherwise they might be bringing in the Jalalabad variant.

    Can we debrief our guys? Or send them on another mission?

    No they are in isolation. But you can use Zoom....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Afghanistan being a red country, I guess anybody evacuated from there is a due a ten day isolation period in one of our lovely covid hotels, including the SAS troopers doing the evacuating. Otherwise they might be bringing in the Jalalabad variant.

    Can we debrief our guys? Or send them on another mission?

    No they are in isolation. But you can use Zoom....

    You do realise there are exemptions to quarantine requirements, don't you?
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 225

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    He wasn't an MP in 2011, it is staggering how little you know about Labour politics.

    Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
    Par for the course for most Corbyinites. They know little about actual political history.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    HYUFD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
    You are wrong of course as usual.

    Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

    Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    darkage said:

    fpt

    Andy_JS said:

    Can't wait to read John Gray's analysis of what's happening in Afghanistan.

    Not much to wait for - he basically predicted it all 20 or so years ago.

    I suppose the main question left for him is whether western societies actually go on in any form at all or whether they will completely collapse in the face of more powerful and coherant adverseries?

    Certainly he had some optimism about Brexit and Trump representing the seeds of a viable post liberal society: yet this must have been severely dashed in 2020 by the woke transformation of society and the aggressive resurgence of progress as a religion.

    I don't think he has much left to say - other than we're all fucked.



    Interesting. John Gray usually finds something new to write about a topic.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

    Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

    If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
    Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

    Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    dixiedean said:

    HYUFD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
    Perhaps the mistake was what happened in the intervening 20 years?
    HYUFD supports the forever war. He thinks we should be there in perpetuity. And presumably in any other place where terrorists have breeding grounds. Welcome to the new imperialism.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2021
    ...
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
    Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

    Do you work for the DfE or ECB?

    Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
    Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    edited August 2021

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    Public support is fickle. People who once cried "get out of Afghanistan..." will soon be appending "... but not like that."
    First in that queue being Donald Trump no doubt.

    "Joe's a LOSER and nobody respects him. I would've got us out of there but made the Talibans behave because Talibans respect WINNERS."
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,388
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
    Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

    Do you work for the DfE or ECB?

    Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
    Tim David is an Australian player - born in Singapore, but plays in Australia and, I think, is now qualified to play for that country. He's been around a while mainly as a T20 player over there.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Quite the stadium Spurs have now. I know it’s been open a couple of years but there’s been this pandemic going on so first time I’ve seen it full.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    edited August 2021
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

    Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

    If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
    Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

    Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
    You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.

    Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited August 2021
    isam said:

    ...

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
    Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

    Do you work for the DfE or ECB?

    Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
    Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
    Possibly, if he's an Aussie. I didn't realise that.

    He's very good whichever country he's from.

    Surrey have another couple to watch though. Ryan Patel and Jamie Smith - a 21 year old wicketkeeper batsman captain. In fact, I'm surprised they're in the playoffs.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

    https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

    And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

    "Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html
    No expert, but we get chinooks over dartmoor a lot and I think them's chinooks.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    edited August 2021
    The lack of strategic thinking and even basic nous among contemporary Western leaders is very disturbing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676

    dixiedean said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Um, so are we? A country led by your party with, I think you keep telling us, an 80 seat majority? Unless your case is that the tub of lard in no 10 is Biden's poodle, in which case why the charade of recalling parliament?

    Where the fuck is Raab while I'm at it?
    He said "It is critical that the international community is united in telling the Taliban that the violence must end."
    That'll show 'em.
    One user condemned Starmer earlier, yet silent on Raab, why?
    Raabs on a fortnights holiday

    SKS has been on holiday for 15 months I think
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    I wish the football season didn't begin until September. A 2 month break isn't long enough IMO.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
    You are wrong of course as usual.

    Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

    Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
    Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.

    America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.

    So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic

    The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.

    Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Feels more like Carter being humiliated in 1980 over Tehran hostages.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    The lack of strategic thinking and even basic nous among contemporary Western leaders is very disturbing.

    Modern leaders are '....following the science.....'
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

    https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

    And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

    "Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html
    No expert, but we get chinooks over dartmoor a lot and I think them's chinooks.
    We had a fierce debate over this prethread. One is a proto-Chinook, the other a Chinook
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Hardman:

    The changes he needs to make don’t even involve him dropping his green agenda. They just involve him listening to the different tribes in his party and understanding that they aren’t automatically signed up to his policies yet. Even a loner is capable of picking that up.

    They're not his policies, they are Carrie's policies...
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    If the first five minutes are anything to go by it’s going to be a long afternoon for Spurs
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Andy_JS said:

    I wish the football season didn't begin until September. A 2 month break isn't long enough IMO.

    It would make the transfer window being open until 31 Aug seem better thats for sure
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    HYUFD said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Just thinking: America's military track record since 1945 isn't that great for a supposed superpower


    They've been involved in four really big ground wars:

    Korea: won (or at least a score draw)
    Vietnam: lost
    Iraq: lost, narrowly
    Afghanistan: lost

    You forget Grenada!
    "Five minutes of firefight, five weeks of surfing!"

    Oh, and Panama.
    Actually, I am being unfair on the USA. There were two Iraq wars, and they won the first, very easily

    Which teaches a lesson. Have a clear objective, when you achieve it, leave. Do not attempt an occupation

    So in Afghanistan America should have gone in, bombed Al Qaeda to bits and routed the Taliban, and then they should have got the hell out, leaving behind this warning: do whatever you like, throw gays off skyscrapers. we can't tell you how to live, much as we abhor it. But if there is any more exported terrorism, we will carpet bomb the entire country. Again and again

    Ruthless but effective? A lot cheaper than trying to rebuild an unwilling nation

    This is exactly right. And this is what Biden is now doing, 15 years too late, but he wasn't president until this year.
    No he isn't, he is running away with his tail between his legs and letting the Taliban and Jihadi terrorists run riot in the country again
    Look we all know your analysis is rather low IQ, but please don't demean it further by adding in childishness too. I feel the cringe on your behalf.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

    Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

    If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
    Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

    Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
    You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.

    Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
    What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.

    But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing

    Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face

    And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,676
    RobD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    He wasn't an MP in 2011, it is staggering how little you know about Labour politics.

    Starmer opposed Iraq in 2003, quite infamously.
    Did anyone know who he was in 2003? ;)
    18 years later we are none the wiser.

    Those of us who always knew he would be a useless nonentity had a terrible choice in 2020 I voted for Nandy who would have been least useless and only a bit of a non entity compared to her 2 opponents.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,200
    tlg86 said:

    Kane not in the squad for Tottenham today. Perhaps he's got whatever Aubameyang and Lacazette have got.

    He's clear odds on for the move now per betfair.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,263

    The lack of strategic thinking and even basic nous among contemporary Western leaders is very disturbing.

    The strategic thinking of the Taliban turned out to be far superior: lie low, disengage, organise and be prepared. Lull Kabul and Washington into a false sense of security and wait for the day. If they'd been more active over the last few years they'd still be bogged down in a shooting war. Instead, they get a walk over. Pity about the Afghans who relied on us to protect them.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral

    https://twitter.com/StefSimanowitz/status/1426846783267909633?s=20

    And Biden is being savaged by his OWN side. From CNN to the NYT

    "Biden Could Have Stopped the Taliban. He Chose Not To."

    https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/biden-afghanistan-taliban.html
    No expert, but we get chinooks over dartmoor a lot and I think them's chinooks.
    We had a fierce debate over this prethread. One is a proto-Chinook, the other a Chinook
    So I now see. Not going mano a mano with @Dura_Ace on this one.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    Feels more like Carter being humiliated in 1980 over Tehran hostages.

    There may yet be hostages in Kabul. They still haven't got everybody out



    Disclose.tv
    @disclosetv
    ·
    31m
    JUST IN - U.S. Embassy in #Kabul issues security alert: "Reports of the airport taking fire. Shelter in place. Do not come to the Embassy or airport at this time."
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    POLL: Did Western involvement in Afghanistan achieve anything?

    ✅ Yes: 23%
    ❌ No: 53%

    Amongst Labour voters:

    ✅ Yes: 20%
    ❌ No: 56%

    Via
    @YouGov
    , 13 August 2021

    Jezza voted against intervention in 2011

    No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention

    And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.

    The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
    You are wrong of course as usual.

    Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.

    Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
    Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.

    America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.

    So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic

    The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.

    Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
    The Taliban were not routed and Al Q were not scattered.

    Al Qaeda simply stepped over the border into Pakistan and the Taliban put down their guns and looked like locals (because they are).

    The invasion plan basically allowed both the Taliban and Al Qaeda to fuck off with minimal disruption by design.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,590
    DougSeal said:

    If the first five minutes are anything to go by it’s going to be a long afternoon for Spurs

    Presumably the away fans have started singing 'he's one of our own' already?
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    I do get the feeling that Biden is now finished in terms of re-election. Difficult to be optimistic but here is an attempt. This jolts US into more unity against external threats and this is harnessed by a competent presidential candidate who is centrist domestically but willing to lead battles for Western interests and values.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,724
    edited August 2021
    A long ke
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ...

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    The only way Glos wins this match is if Tim David tramples on his own wicket.

    He just looks an extraordinary talent.

    Admittedly he ran out his partner, but that apart he's been sensational.

    Its county cricket though, so you can't really tell. The standard is so far below test level that the selectors can't sort a flat track bully from the next Don Bradman.

    England needs a regional competition with fewer teams of a higher standard.
    Proof, if proof were needed, that you really don't have the slightest understanding of what you're talking about.

    Do you work for the DfE or ECB?

    Admittedly the RLODC has been substandard this year but that's because 40% of first class players have been stolen for Tom Harrison's stupid wankfest. Although some very talented players have emerged suddenly as a result, like Tim David.
    Didn't I see him play in the BBL this year? If it's the same bloke, I am surprised he didn't get a gig in the 100
    Possibly, if he's an Aussie. I didn't realise that.

    He's very good whichever country he's from.

    Surrey have another couple to watch though. Ryan Patel and Jamie Smith - a 21 year old wicketkeeper batsman captain. In fact, I'm surprised they're in the playoffs.
    David is a Singaporean,/ozzie not capped yet
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,988
  • AslanAslan Posts: 1,673
    Leon said:

    Aslan said:

    Leon said:

    HYUFD said:

    kinabalu said:

    Sandpit said:

    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?

    The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.

    However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.

    Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.

    By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
    Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.

    Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
    The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
    No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.

    Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.

    If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
    Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world

    Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
    You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.

    Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
    What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.

    But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing

    Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face

    And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
    I said you were biased against the left, I didn't say you preferred every right winger to every left winger. Trump was so laughably catastrophic not just as a president but as a functioning human person, anyone with intelligence, as you clearly have, is going to have to rate him very low, regardless of bias.

    So you want to keep American troops in their thousands in Afghanistan indefinitely? What happened to we should have left 15-20 years ago?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428

    Andrew Neil
    @afneil
    ·
    2m
    US evacuation of its nationals from Kabul now described as frenzied. Reports of gunfire at the airport.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,428
    If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818

    I do get the feeling that Biden is now finished in terms of re-election. Difficult to be optimistic but here is an attempt. This jolts US into more unity against external threats and this is harnessed by a competent presidential candidate who is centrist domestically but willing to lead battles for Western interests and values.

    Biden could be finished period.

    The handful of friendly republicans and cohort of moderate dems underpinning him are not going to like this. Not going to like this one bit.
  • kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    Kane not in the squad for Tottenham today. Perhaps he's got whatever Aubameyang and Lacazette have got.

    He's clear odds on for the move now per betfair.
    Sky say he is in the stadium

    And Spurs look poor with 21% possession
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Leon said:

    If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday

    How? Who’s going to impeach him?
This discussion has been closed.