What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
I said you were biased against the left, I didn't say you preferred every right winger to every left winger. Trump was so laughably catastrophic not just as a president but as a functioning human person, anyone with intelligence, as you clearly have, is going to have to rate him very low, regardless of bias.
So you want to keep American troops in their thousands in Afghanistan indefinitely? What happened to we should have left 15-20 years ago?
We agree that we should have left 15-20 years ago
I do not agree "we" should be leaving now. However I am American and this is an American decision, and if they are absolutely determined to do it, then so be it, but don't do it in this catastrophically incompetent away which traumatises Afghanis, humiliates America, and where we have diplomats scrambling to get on planes as an airport is raked with gunfire
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
For a bit of context, the fall of South Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia in the spring of 1975 was seen as a big advance for "global Communism" (there was little distinction between the Moscow and Beijing brands for all the USSR and China had almost got into a full-scale shooting war in 1969).
It was that moment when Communism seemed to have momentum and modernity and the West, especially the US, was in introspective retreat. The dominos were falling, what would happen next?
When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979 (remember that?), everyone thought this was the precursor to a push for a "warm water port" either by invading and partitioning either Iran or Pakistan. The fact Moscow had intervened as a knee-jerk reaction to events in Iran and a real fear Islamic fundamentalism would sweep the central Asian Soviet Republics wasn't realised in the West.
Between Afghanistan and Poland, Moscow looked again to be on the march but in fact both were symbols of weakness which would be ruthlessly exploited by Reagan, Thatcher and others in the 1980s to the inevitable retrenchment of Russian power in 1989 (which included withdrawing from Afghanistan).
Now, it's slightly different - Iran and Afghanistan nearly went to war in 1998 so don't assume Tehran is happy with events in Afghanistan. The Wakhan Corridor borders Xinjiang province with its large ethnic populations and the last thing China will need is an Islamic fundamentalist regime on its border.
The only real "friend" the new Afghan state has is Pakistan.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
Up there with your the SNP won't be the largest party at Holyrood prediction from earlier on this year.
It was hyperbole. God PB is autistic
Biden probably isn't even aware this is going on. He's probably eating ice cream out of a bucket with a big plastic spoon in Camp David watching re-runs of Cheers
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
I said you were biased against the left, I didn't say you preferred every right winger to every left winger. Trump was so laughably catastrophic not just as a president but as a functioning human person, anyone with intelligence, as you clearly have, is going to have to rate him very low, regardless of bias.
So you want to keep American troops in their thousands in Afghanistan indefinitely? What happened to we should have left 15-20 years ago?
This is the worst of all worlds. If you leave then you do so in a planned way with a lot of force still available to ensure orderly disengagement. If you negotiate you increase military pressure during negotiations and do not announce your departure date before negotiating. If you accept the Taliban in government you try to ensure that they know that involvement in international terror will bring huge retribution.
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The irony of course is Biden voted against the successful 1990 Gulf War but for the 2003 Gulf War.
Obama left him in charge of the Iraq withdrawal in 2011 which led to the rise of IS by 2014 and US re intervention and now he has handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban and AQ.
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Iraq is ironically a relatively secure democracy now and Saddam is gone.
At the moment the Iraq War Clarke opposed has had a rather better outcome than the Afghan war he supported
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Fog of war. No command and control system. Just restless young men seizing the day.
Yes, indeed. It may be that the "leadership" of the Taliban do want a "peaceful handover" - for now (tho they will surely want revenge and reprisals over time)
But they are not an organised Roman legion, they are full of factions, different tribes, army deserters, and foreign jihadis, any of them could go rogue and kick off immediate violence at any time.
I imagine quite a few AQ or ISIS vets would like to take a shot at the departing US ambassador, for instance
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
It's fine
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
Setting aside the rights and wrongs of withdrawal, you cannot coherently claim this process, as it is being enacted, is "not obviously flawed". It is historically inept
"The US has failed even at evacuating its own citizens"
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
Up there with your the SNP won't be the largest party at Holyrood prediction from earlier on this year.
It was hyperbole. God PB is autistic
Biden probably isn't even aware this is going on. He's probably eating ice cream out of a bucket with a big plastic spoon in Camp David watching re-runs of Cheers
You're one of the people with the least social awareness with some of the comments you make, so it is hilarious to see you accuse others of being "autistic"
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
I think it has been misjudged badly. They could have negotiated with the Taliban and withdrawn more effectively but it would have required better tactics and a temporary ramp up of military force during the negotiations.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
So you think this is the best possible execution of withdrawal, or he just couldn't be bothered to do it a bit better? What would a careless withdrawal have looked like?
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
It's fine
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Perhaps not tactful to mention Kipling in the current circs, after the last time old Rudyard had an outing in a political context.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
An interesting thread by a moderate Islamic thinker on the importance of this moment. It's not all pessimistic
"My prediction is that what just happened in Afghanistan will cast a long shadow on the rest of the 21st century and its geopolitics. Decades from now the moment will be remembered as an important historical juncture. Towards what, I don't know - that's yet to be written."
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
So you think this is the best possible execution of withdrawal, or he just couldn't be bothered to do it a bit better? What would a careless withdrawal have looked like?
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
That middle sentence is utterly ludicrous. I'll take you seriously again once we're off this topic.
Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
The Tehran hostages affair was also one in which helicopters, crashed this time, played a very visible and photogenic part.
Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.
Yes, Khan is going to be a key figure in how things play out, across the region in the coming weeks and months. Wouldn’t want to be in his shoes today.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
I do not want UK military in Afghanistan - your gung-ho solution requires an indefinite military presence that will not see support from UK voters
And let us not forget, your hero Trump started the withdrawal
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
Actually, looking at these images coming out of modern Afghanistan, bombing the country "back into the Neolithic" would require three or four small grenades to take out two pizza shacks and that one decent toilet in Kandahar, so my statement is probably not the horrifically callous remark you perceive
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
Is 911/2 more or less likely due to our reckless intervention there ?
Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.
Yes, Khan is going to be a key figure in how things play out, across the region in the coming weeks and months. Wouldn’t want to be in his shoes today.
Twitter is full of thousands of approbatory tweets from Pakistan. If this newest incarnation of the Taliban can indeed be moderated or reset in their relationship with the outside world in any way, Imran Khan is going to be a key player.
It'd be great if Pakistan could pour oil here. The best outcome.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
Wasn't there at least one PR person in the Pentagon saying "Er, can't we have some helicopters that are just a bit less Chinooky? And do they REALLY have to land on the roof of the Embassy?"
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
Wasn't there at least one PR person in the Pentagon saying "Er, can't we have some helicopters that are just a bit less Chinooky? And do they REALLY have to land on the roof of the Embassy?"
Not much choice there, as the other alternative would be the US Navy's big Sea Stallions, and not much sea around there. They need big copters to move people quickly and efficiently - it takes time, I expect, to approach, land, and take off, so loading a few more [e3dit] folk doesn't add much to the time.
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
It's easily justifiable as 9/11 being an act-of-war-by-proxy - the terrorist group that committed the atrocity was protected, aided and abetted by a government.
The US State Dept has reported that Kabul airport has taken fire. The assumption is that its scattered. Things would get very messy if it was put under attack. Both the US and Britain amongst others have a fraction of the announced troop numbers on the ground. Admittedly the US can lump in enormous firepower but this is a city, not some village.
Given that the UK reckoned on a 3 week programme of evacuation neither they or the US are really in enough control on the ground to ensure they can meet all the objectives.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
The Tehran hostages affair was also one in which helicopters, crashed this time, played a very visible and photogenic part.
Black Hawk Down, in Mogadishu, was another. Iconic photographs of the failures of modern warfare.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
It's fine
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Perhaps not tactful to mention Kipling in the current circs, after the last time old Rudyard had an outing in a political context.
I really don't like him. That jaunty insouciance would be ok from a soldier poet, which he emphatically wasn't. One of Orwell's major bloopers.
Last time was, what, Johnson riffing on the road to Mandalay?
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.
"So far the Taliban have captured hundreds of guns, light tactical vehicles, and huge numbers of Humvees and artillery pieces, all of which have been used against the Afghan forces."
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
Is 911/2 more or less likely due to our reckless intervention there ?
It was less likely because of our intervention which removed Al Qaeda from the country and saw Bin Laden killed, it is more likely post withdrawal if it becomes a failed terrorist state again
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
2977 lives lost on 9/11 was just the opening skirmish in a projected holy war. How many more would have been lost if the US hadn't moved decisively against AQ? Waiting calmly for the next attack wasn't an option.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
It's fine
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Perhaps not tactful to mention Kipling in the current circs, after the last time old Rudyard had an outing in a political context.
I really don't like him. That jaunty insouciance would be ok from a soldier poet, which he emphatically wasn't. One of Orwell's major bloopers.
Last time was, what, Johnson riffing on the road to Mandalay?
Yep, the last time I have in mind was that in Myanmar. I don't think he will be repeating that bit of Kipling which you quoted, though - or at least I do hope not.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
The Taliban are now in the presidential palace. They have full control. But do they?
And even if they do, many of their extremists would love to capture a whole load of western hostages. Gives them enormous leverage. So, yes, they must be tempted to take out the airport
No idea which way the useless nonentity voted but if he was in Parliament it would likely have been pro intervention
And of course not only would the Taliban already still be in Kabul but Bin Laden would still be in the country as would Al Qaeda had there been no invasion.
The mistake was not the invasion, the mistake is the withdrawal which will reopen it to terrorists again
You are wrong of course as usual.
Unjust military interventions just make matters worse.
Just as Ken Clarke stated prior to the Iraq invasion
Afghanistan and Iraq 2 are completely different.
America invaded Afghanistan because America had been attacked - outrageously - by terrorists based in Afghanistan. ie 9/11. America could not just "do nothing". No country would let itself be assaulted like that without response.
So Afghanistan was rightfully invaded, the Taliban were routed, Al Q were scattered: job done. As I say below at that point America should have quit, but leaving behind the warning that any more global terror and they'd be back to bomb Afghanistan into the Neolithic
The mistake was in trying to remake Afghanistan as a liberal western-loving country, the occupation was a terrible error. Occupations usually are.
Iraq 2 was a just a grievous error from the get go
The loss of 2,977 lives to violence in America justifies "bombing Afghanistan into the Neolithic"?
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
Actually, looking at these images coming out of modern Afghanistan, bombing the country "back into the Neolithic" would require three or four small grenades to take out two pizza shacks and that one decent toilet in Kandahar, so my statement is probably not the horrifically callous remark you perceive
Very clever. But you had to think about that one. That wasn't what was going through your head - or other body parts - when you typed out the original. The spirit of the original was the real you.
Mess with the West? - So prepare to be annihilated you heathen little fuckers. One of us is worth a hundred of you.
Understandable when (as now) the blood's up but still - primitive.
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
I do not want UK military in Afghanistan - your gung-ho solution requires an indefinite military presence that will not see support from UK voters
And let us not forget, your hero Trump started the withdrawal
No, you want to hand it on a plate back to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
The pubic's views are volatile, after 9/11 they overwhelmingly backed the invasion, now they are war wary, however if this withdrawal leads to 9/11 2 they will back intervention again and we will be back at square 1.
I have already said Romney, who opposes withdrawal, would do a better job than Biden and Trump on this
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
Can I just point out the derivation is helico (whirly, like a helix) pter (wing, as in pterodactyl), so copter is a barbarous abbreviation?
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.
Let's just hope that the Taliban decide that there's no point in engaging with forces that are so firmly running away.
Imran Khan is in fact probably the only man to stop this blowing up into a full-scale conflict again in the short-term, let alone any long-term prospect of moderating the Taliban, or smoothing and reintegrating their relationship with the outside world.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
Can I just point out the derivation is helico (whirly, like a helix) pter (wing, as in pterodactyl), so copter is a barbarous abbreviation?
You mean it should be pronounced with a silent 'p'?
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
I very much hope the Taliban stay away from the airport for as long as possible.
Emirates airline came very close to landing a 777 in Kabul this afternoon. Spent half an hour doing circuits around the field, before someone said enough and they went scooting back home to Dubai.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
This is what I was thinking. Many of these troops pouring in are just going to be defending the airport.
Let's just hope that the Taliban decide that there's no point in engaging with forces that are so firmly running away.
Sadly wishful thinking, there is a real chance the Taliban will now not only engage but pursue a massacre and mass executions, including of westerners not evacuated by then and all and anyone associated with the previous government as a means of imposing their rule by fear again
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?
If this gets worse Biden could be gone by next Tuesday
And Johnson by Wednesday's recall of Parliament
Except both Biden and Johnson are fulfilling the will of their peoples, which is to not get involved with Abroad but focus on The People's Priorities. Let's fund our NHS instead, eh?
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
I don't think we should be there either. My slightly sarcastic point was that the Essicks Massiv is ranting on about Biden abandoning the Afghans but is silent about Johnson abandoning the Afghans. Because he is a massiv hypocrite.
As so often recently @HYUFD and I are on opposite sides of the argument as I see no justification in the UK continuing involvement not only in Afghanistan but any military interventions other than on humanitarian grounds
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
So when Afghanistan is filled with terrorists preparing 9/11 2 again against a major western city Big G then on your grounds sounds like you would do sod all about it?
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
I do not want UK military in Afghanistan - your gung-ho solution requires an indefinite military presence that will not see support from UK voters
And let us not forget, your hero Trump started the withdrawal
No, you want to hand it on a plate back to the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
The pubic's views are volatile, after 9/11 they overwhelmingly backed the invasion, now they are war wary, however if this withdrawal leads to 9/11 2 they will back intervention again and we will be back at square 1.
I have already said Romney, who opposes withdrawal, would do a better job than Biden and Trump on this
Trump started the withdrawal and Biden continued it
And short of complete military occupation it is inevitable it reverts back to Taliban
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?
Maybe they already did.
I have NO idea if this is true, but his feed is interesting
Warren Platts @WarrenPlatts @zerohedge Scoop for you: Kabul airport just got overran about 20 minutes ago..
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
Can I just point out the derivation is helico (whirly, like a helix) pter (wing, as in pterodactyl), so copter is a barbarous abbreviation?
You mean it should be pronounced with a silent 'p'?
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
I very much hope the Taliban stay away from the airport for as long as possible.
They'll leave the airport alone. Any gunfire nearby is the product of a few hotheads. They no doubt want the foreigners gone: they've nothing to gain from provoking the Americans into launching mass bombing raids.
Hopefully they'll then have enough control over their own territory to prevent jihadist groups re-establishing and using the country as a base to plan and execute atrocities abroad. The Taliban aren't completely stupid. They must realise that if they don't cause problems abroad they'll be left to inflict whatever brutalities they desire at home. Nobody is going to launch another military intervention in Afghanistan to save it from itself.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
I'm not saying this isn't a big and bad story for Joe Biden. It's certainly the 1st and (right now) the 2nd too. What I'm taking issue with is the ludicrous assertions of his presidency being defined and doomed by it. And I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that most of this is coming from people who have been strikingly jaundiced against Biden for a long time.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?
I clearly don't know. However if the forces are in the region to do so then it's something that could be done.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
My guess.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
How feasible is it to have an operation to hold an international airport for a few days? Presumably you need to keep the runway to get the cargo planes in and out. Other people on here know more about this than me, but surely the runway could just be blown up and then its all over?
You'd need to secure the area around the runway to stop light flak, of the kind often mounted on pickups, and man-portable AA missiles taking out the planes when they are low and slow on their approach or takeoff. Especially if civilian - not trained or equipped to do evasive action, use decoy flares, have IR jammers, etc. I would not like to be holding the perimeter on that sort of situation - even hasving a helicopter to jump into wouldn't get you very far unless it had the range to get to a neighbouring state.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
I think Trump is one of the most unpleasant men ever to hold elected office in the West, if not the most.
However, not everything he did or called was wrong just because he was Trump and, by the same token, not everything his opponents said or did in opposition was right.
Foreign policy isn't easy - you can be damned if you do, and damned if you don't - but in recent years I think the West usually has more robust leadership when the Republicans are in the Oval Office.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
I'm not saying this isn't a big and bad story for Joe Biden. It's certainly the 1st and (right now) the 2nd too. What I'm taking issue with is the ludicrous assertions of his presidency being defined and doomed by it. And I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that most of this is coming from people who have been strikingly jaundiced against Biden for a long time.
LBJ and Nixon and Ford were defined by Vietnam ( LBJ by civil rights and the Great Society and Nixon by Watergate too), Carter by the Iran hostage crisis, Reagan by setting the stage to end the Cold War, Bush 41 by the Gulf War and breaking his tax pledge, Bill Clinton by Monica, Dubya by 9/11 and his response to it, Obama by being the first black president and Obamacare, Trump by his failure on Covid.
Biden will almost certainly be defined by this unless he does something spectacular in the rest of his term
Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.
Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
I very much hope the Taliban stay away from the airport for as long as possible.
Emirates airline came very close to landing a 777 in Kabul this afternoon. Spent half an hour doing circuits around the field, before someone said enough and they went scooting back home to Dubai.
I suspect that it would have been that plane’s final fight, if they’d landed it.
BBC's Lyse Ducet was on board:
Flights diverted from Kabul amid evacuation chaos Lyse Doucet
Chief International Correspondent
The BBC's Lyse Doucet spoke to Newshour from a commercial flight bound for Kabul.
"I am in a civilian aircraft, a commercial flight that has been circling Kabul for about an hour now - seeing, from the windows, the majestic Hindu Kush mountains which are very much part of the story of Afghanistan.
Today’s story is one that almost no one would have expected 20 years ago when the US-led engagement started in Afghanistan.
This flight that I’m on is meant to take out some 400 people, including 100 children, but we’re told that there’s a broken military aircraft on the runway and that’s preventing us from landing.
We’re not sure whether that’s really the case. Is it because aircraft are taking out Afghan officials in these last hours? Is it because of other flights, connected to the massive US and British airlift of both their remaining nationals, as well as other Afghans who are at risk? We’re not sure.
We’ve been diverted - heading back to Dubai - although we’ve been told the airport will be clearing for commercial flights.
It’s not clear how long [it will be] until the situation stabilises and it’s clear to all that it’s safe to land and safe for people to arrive in Kabul.
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
No it is far worse than Saigon. Vietnam was never used to attack the west as Afghanistan was by Bin Laden and Al Qaeda.
Biden is now clearly the worst US President in foreign policy terms of the last 100 years if not all time.
If and when terrorists return to Afghanistan to plot 9/11 2 that will only confirm it
Yes, this is, potentially, much worse than Saigon - for the Afghan people, for the USA, for the West, for the world
Xi Jinping is probably planning his invasion of Taiwan over dinner right now. What are the chances of sleepy Joe B opposing him?
You have on this very thread said we should intervene when we need to, and then leave. When a president finally leaves after two decades in a place, you take this as a sign he wouldn't intervene somewhere else. Even though the guy has supported military interventions numerous times.
Why don't you just admit you are horribly biased against anyone from the "left" party in any country?
What? I despised Trump. I thought the way he scuttled out of Syria - leaving the Kurds to their own devices - was odious.
But this is worse. It just is. If Trump did it - if any American president did it - I'd be equally scathing
Biden should have accepted a long term US presence in Afghanistan. The cost of basing a few thousand troops is better than the new global terror we now potentially face
And if the idiot Biden absolutely HAD to quit Afghanistan there were so many ways better than this. Like waiting for winter when the Taliban don't fight etc. Like getting everyone to safety first before removing the troops. And so on, and so forth
I think Trump is one of the most unpleasant men ever to hold elected office in the West, if not the most.
However, not everything he did or called was wrong just because he was Trump and, by the same token, not everything his opponents said or did in opposition was right.
Foreign policy isn't easy - you can be damned if you do, and damned if you don't - but I think the West usually has more robust leadership when the Republicans are in the Oval Office.
I can't see anything robust about Trump's deal to free 5000 taliban commanders and set an exit date. As I remember, before Trump's presidency, Obama, Clinton and Biden all wanted to keep that small, but crucial, residual skeleton force in place in Afghanistan.
Trump announced the withdrawal on a whim for social media clicks, and short-term shoring up of his America First base before an election, which isn't what I would call robust leadership.
If the Taliban have broken their agreement and are bombing/attacking the airport then WTF
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
Easier said than done, given they’ve just dismantled their logistics and can barely keep control of their own embassy. It’s too late.
Just a thought
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
They really did not expect this immediate chaos and humiliation. Helicopters on the bloody roof of the embassy! No sane politician would willingly bring this on.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
This is about the the worst political fuck-up ever.
That about sums it up. If the airport goes, which it looks like it might, what exactly happens then?
I very much hope the Taliban stay away from the airport for as long as possible.
They'll leave the airport alone. Any gunfire nearby is the product of a few hotheads. They no doubt want the foreigners gone: they've nothing to gain from provoking the Americans into launching mass bombing raids.
Hopefully they'll then have enough control over their own territory to prevent jihadist groups re-establishing and using the country as a base to plan and execute atrocities abroad. The Taliban aren't completely stupid. They must realise that if they don't cause problems abroad they'll be left to inflict whatever brutalities they desire at home. Nobody is going to launch another military intervention in Afghanistan to save it from itself.
I really don't share your confidence that the Taliban think in this "logical" western way. They are fighting religious war against unbelievers, they want the world under sharia law. The secular west is the big enemy, and it is showing weakness (unlike China)
Many of them would be delighted to seize multiple western hostages, and they would happily invite America back only to humiliate it again, because they believe Allah is on their side and they will always, eventually, win. They must be particularly triumphalist right now
Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.
Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.
I've just checked my brother's login, which I use sometimes, and it appears to be working fine.
Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.
Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.
I've just checked my brother's login, which I use sometimes, and it appears to be working fine.
Can I trouble you for some advice.
Are there any restaurants in/near Newcastle train station?
"Scenes from #Kabul Airport, #Afghanistan showing people boarding what appears to a C17 (please correct me if wrong) and what appears to be gunfire in the air in the distance."
What the hell is going on in Afghanistan? Did Biden think he’s just abandon the place to the Taliban, as opposed to being in the slightest bit organised about withdrawing troops?
The American troops left on the qt, so this was Al ays inevitable.
However, Trump announced the withdrawal last year so Biden was an is in a complete no win situation.
Keep the troops there and the GOP would criticise everyday hand injury, leave and suffer the pain and embarrassment of leaving.
By doing it now through it will be forgotten before the next election comes along.
Of course it was always going to be a tricky situation to manage, but pretty much any way would have been better than having to land Chinooks on the roof of your own embassy to get the diplomats out.
Those photos will define Biden’s presidency, it’s reminiscent of the fall of Saigon five decades ago, as the American troops fled Vietnam in defeat.
The Saigon comparison is being overcooked imo. Ok, so there's a copter. What I don't see is it taking off the roof of the embassy amidst scenes of utter chaos with people hanging on for grim death to the undercarriage with their legs dangling in the air. And whether you agree or disagree with the withdrawal, the notion that this final leg of it, following his predecessor's plan and with public support, will define and condemn Joe Biden's presidency is absurd. Is it co-incidence that those pronouncing that it will are all people who were rather disappointed he beat Trump in the election? I think not.
You're completely wrong. The photos of the two "chinooky" choppers on both US embassies - Saigon, Kabul - are now going absolutely viral
Yep, we have photos of copters. It's too tempting for many. Hence instant received wisdom is created. "It's Saigon all over again!". Will last a few days.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When the US Secretary of State is being asked if scenes from Kabul remind him of Saigon, then the comparison is sticking.
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
I'm not saying this isn't a big and bad story for Joe Biden. It's certainly the 1st and (right now) the 2nd too. What I'm taking issue with is the ludicrous assertions of his presidency being defined and doomed by it. And I'm sorry but I can't help noticing that most of this is coming from people who have been strikingly jaundiced against Biden for a long time.
LBJ and Nixon and Ford were defined by Vietnam ( LBJ by civil rights and the Great Society and Nixon by Watergate too), Carter by the Iran hostage crisis, Reagan by setting the stage to end the Cold War, Bush 41 by the Gulf War and breaking his tax pledge, Bill Clinton by Monica, Dubya by 9/11 and his response to it, Obama by being the first black president and Obamacare, Trump by his failure on Covid.
Biden will almost certainly be defined by this unless he does something spectacular in the rest of his term
You have said he already is the worst president in100 years
Can anyone get Sky Go working? I'm wanting to watch the end of the day's cricket but my app on my phone is saying login expired and can't log me in, my laptop's app isn't working either, and I can't log in to Sky on Firefox either.
Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.
I've just checked my brother's login, which I use sometimes, and it appears to be working fine.
Thanks. Must be the WiFi here blocking it. And no Sky Mobile here either.
I speculated at the time of the Olympics that the success of Team GB with a disproportionate number of Scots proudly wearing the badge and waving the Union Jack just might have some effect. We are about to get a repeat for the para-Olympics.
We shall see. The list of obvious gains from the Union (vaccines, furlough, economic growth) is pretty strong at the moment but there is a lot of emotion in play.
Comments
I do not agree "we" should be leaving now. However I am American and this is an American decision, and if they are absolutely determined to do it, then so be it, but don't do it in this catastrophically incompetent away which traumatises Afghanis, humiliates America, and where we have diplomats scrambling to get on planes as an airport is raked with gunfire
Astoundingly inept
It was that moment when Communism seemed to have momentum and modernity and the West, especially the US, was in introspective retreat. The dominos were falling, what would happen next?
When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan in 1979 (remember that?), everyone thought this was the precursor to a push for a "warm water port" either by invading and partitioning either Iran or Pakistan. The fact Moscow had intervened as a knee-jerk reaction to events in Iran and a real fear Islamic fundamentalism would sweep the central Asian Soviet Republics wasn't realised in the West.
Between Afghanistan and Poland, Moscow looked again to be on the march but in fact both were symbols of weakness which would be ruthlessly exploited by Reagan, Thatcher and others in the 1980s to the inevitable retrenchment of Russian power in 1989 (which included withdrawing from Afghanistan).
Now, it's slightly different - Iran and Afghanistan nearly went to war in 1998 so don't assume Tehran is happy with events in Afghanistan. The Wakhan Corridor borders Xinjiang province with its large ethnic populations and the last thing China will need is an Islamic fundamentalist regime on its border.
The only real "friend" the new Afghan state has is Pakistan.
Assassination!
Biden probably isn't even aware this is going on. He's probably eating ice cream out of a bucket with a big plastic spoon in Camp David watching re-runs of Cheers
Obama left him in charge of the Iraq withdrawal in 2011 which led to the rise of IS by 2014 and US re intervention and now he has handed Afghanistan back to the Taliban and AQ.
America will have to go back in with a huge show of power
At the moment the Iraq War Clarke opposed has had a rather better outcome than the Afghan war he supported
For a moment there....
But they are not an organised Roman legion, they are full of factions, different tribes, army deserters, and foreign jihadis, any of them could go rogue and kick off immediate violence at any time.
I imagine quite a few AQ or ISIS vets would like to take a shot at the departing US ambassador, for instance
All we ask is that any calamitous consequences aren't rubbed in our faces, because that makes us feel sad.
And no, I wouldn't want to go and fight there. Sounds like a blooming awful place.
And, sure, he's upsetting some "muscular" liberal types on his side of the political fence who are seeking either to rewrite history or start from a different place or imagine into being a different American public, but they'll soon be writing about other things.
The bottom line is this decision is driven by US domestic political calculation and it's not obviously flawed. We'll see how it pans out but for now I'll take Biden's judgment on that over yours, H's, Sandpit's et al any day of the week. I think one has to.
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
What if Biden expected this outcome and was prepared to take the consequences, rather than be involved indefinitely in Afghanistan
I am not saying he did but maybe his advisors did
"The US has failed even at evacuating its own citizens"
https://twitter.com/MacaesBruno/status/1426926543654301698?s=20
The British Army should be big enough to do such a thing. It's clearly not though.
We should always check that the Taliban are people we want to fight.
He’s a fool.
The fact you trot this out so easily indicates that you place a very low value on Afghan lives cf Americans.
But I guess you wouldn't argue that point. So at least there's no artifice there.
Biden explicitly denied this would happen, right down to the choppers, about a month ago
They fucked it up
"This may become the most infamous — and devastating — press conference ever held by an American President."
https://twitter.com/BryanDeanWright/status/1426710333264179214?s=20
And on Boris I am pleased he is not gung-ho like HYUFD
Vietnam still very much resonates in the USA, even nearly five decades later, as one of America’s biggest screw-ups. The pictures of the Chinooks in Kabul today are identical to those from the fall of Saigon in 1975, when the world’s superpower was forced to retreat. Those pictures are already on every front page and TV screen, and can’t be unseen.
"My prediction is that what just happened in Afghanistan will cast a long shadow on the rest of the 21st century and its geopolitics. Decades from now the moment will be remembered as an important historical juncture. Towards what, I don't know - that's yet to be written."
https://twitter.com/iyad_elbaghdadi/status/1426922436839231493?s=20
And if what is going on now is not a humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan then I don't know what is?
And let us not forget, your hero Trump started the withdrawal
Labour is moving back to the centre.
Given that the UK reckoned on a 3 week programme of evacuation neither they or the US are really in enough control on the ground to ensure they can meet all the objectives.
Biden has to deploy a huge force now to just hold the airport area. Massive evacuations. A three day operation.
For other nations it's much the same if there's scale. If not, suppose the UK is left alone then special forces to get the nationals over the border into Pakistan.
Last time was, what, Johnson riffing on the road to Mandalay?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/taliban-have-inherited-abandoned-military-hardware-in-afghanistan-not-the-mastery-of-it-g0mvkq9df
"So far the Taliban have captured hundreds of guns, light tactical vehicles, and huge numbers of Humvees and artillery pieces, all of which have been used against the Afghan forces."
My chance of a winning bet on the draw looking less good all of a sudden
And even if they do, many of their extremists would love to capture a whole load of western hostages. Gives them enormous leverage. So, yes, they must be tempted to take out the airport
Mess with the West? - So prepare to be annihilated you heathen little fuckers. One of us is worth a hundred of you.
Understandable when (as now) the blood's up but still - primitive.
The pubic's views are volatile, after 9/11 they overwhelmingly backed the invasion, now they are war wary, however if this withdrawal leads to 9/11 2 they will back intervention again and we will be back at square 1.
I have already said Romney, who opposes withdrawal, would do a better job than Biden and Trump on this
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ek640#28ca0529
I suspect that it would have been that plane’s final fight, if they’d landed it.
And short of complete military occupation it is inevitable it reverts back to Taliban
And Spurs have scored
Yes Spurs
I have NO idea if this is true, but his feed is interesting
Warren Platts
@WarrenPlatts
@zerohedge
Scoop for you: Kabul airport just got overran about 20 minutes ago..
https://twitter.com/WarrenPlatts/status/1426946659783790601?s=20
Hopefully they'll then have enough control over their own territory to prevent jihadist groups re-establishing and using the country as a base to plan and execute atrocities abroad. The Taliban aren't completely stupid. They must realise that if they don't cause problems abroad they'll be left to inflict whatever brutalities they desire at home. Nobody is going to launch another military intervention in Afghanistan to save it from itself.
The big issue is how you evacuate the defenders.
However, not everything he did or called was wrong just because he was Trump and, by the same token, not everything his opponents said or did in opposition was right.
Foreign policy isn't easy - you can be damned if you do, and damned if you don't - but in recent years I think the West usually has more robust leadership when the Republicans are in the Oval Office.
Both Biden and Obama proved to be wet.
Biden will almost certainly be defined by this unless he does something spectacular in the rest of his term
Not sure if its me, or if its blocked by the WiFi where I'm staying.
Flights diverted from Kabul amid evacuation chaos
Lyse Doucet
Chief International Correspondent
The BBC's Lyse Doucet spoke to Newshour from a commercial flight bound for Kabul.
"I am in a civilian aircraft, a commercial flight that has been circling Kabul for about an hour now - seeing, from the windows, the majestic Hindu Kush mountains which are very much part of the story of Afghanistan.
Today’s story is one that almost no one would have expected 20 years ago when the US-led engagement started in Afghanistan.
This flight that I’m on is meant to take out some 400 people, including 100 children, but we’re told that there’s a broken military aircraft on the runway and that’s preventing us from landing.
We’re not sure whether that’s really the case. Is it because aircraft are taking out Afghan officials in these last hours? Is it because of other flights, connected to the massive US and British airlift of both their remaining nationals, as well as other Afghans who are at risk? We’re not sure.
We’ve been diverted - heading back to Dubai - although we’ve been told the airport will be clearing for commercial flights.
It’s not clear how long [it will be] until the situation stabilises and it’s clear to all that it’s safe to land and safe for people to arrive in Kabul.
Incredible bravery to even think of going there.
Trump announced the withdrawal on a whim for social media clicks, and short-term shoring up of his America First base before an election, which isn't what I would call robust leadership.
Many of them would be delighted to seize multiple western hostages, and they would happily invite America back only to humiliate it again, because they believe Allah is on their side and they will always, eventually, win. They must be particularly triumphalist right now
However Biden probably should stand down.
Are there any restaurants in/near Newcastle train station?
"Scenes from #Kabul Airport, #Afghanistan showing people boarding what appears to a C17 (please correct me if wrong) and what appears to be gunfire in the air in the distance."
https://twitter.com/AuroraIntel/status/1426947997104054277?s=20
Again, more iconically bad images for Biden