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Could Johnson be planning to sack Sunak? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited August 7 in General
imageCould Johnson be planning to sack Sunak? – politicalbetting.com

According to an excellent long read by Tim Shipman in tomorrow’s Sunday Times last Monday morning at a meeting with aides the PM was apoplectic and raging about his Chancellor. This had been sparked by Sunak’s leaked letter to his boss a calling significant easing of the coronavirus travel restrictions and other measures. Shipman writes:

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,382
    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.
  • Sunak is 25/1 as next out of the cabinet with Ladbrokes.

    Just saying.
  • philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Well Brexiteers and Boris Johnson fans swear by Tim Shipman's All Out War book as evidence of the brilliance of Shippers.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,006
    Damn, that was a fair try. No evidence of a forward pass.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    Questions for the prime minister's private office about how much they edit/fillet his red box. How is it possible that the chancellor writes a letter to the PM and he is unaware of the fact for 3-4 days?

    https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1424055499016871936

    I think we can all think of an explanation more to do with if Boris puts the effort in to read his boxes.

    Besides, I thought all government was conducted by WhatsApp group now?
  • Also from the piece.

    Few expect a reshuffle before the new year but it is understood that Johnson has, in the past, considered Truss, a former chief secretary to the Treasury, as Britain’s first female chancellor, with Jacob Rees-Mogg as her deputy. “The PM keeps talking about Liz Truss,” a source said. “He’s always got on quite well with her. He thinks she’s controllable.”
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see we now have six medals in track and field. Disappointing to not get a gold, but I think it’s a decent return.

    Sounds absolute crap to me.
    I think that you are being harsh. Laura Muir's medal in particular was a really excellent effort.
    It would have been gold if Scotland was independent. ;)
    It would have been fuck all outside of Team GB/BOA funding tbh. It's what's turned the UK into a sporting powerhouse compared to years gone.
    It will be interesting to see if there is an effect from Scots so clearly proud to wear a team GB strip and doing really well in these games. According to Sky News Scotland has more medal winners than any other part of the UK per head of population but they all seem very proud to wave the Union Jack.
    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html
    They don't have any other option than waving the Butcher's Apron. It is a bloody scandal that there is not a Scottish team at the Olympics.
    The majority of Scots athletes are proud to embrace their British identity, just as a majority of Scots voted to stay British.
    Yep.
    This guy for example.


    Still struggling with the term "majority" I see. Bless.
    Oh? I thought I was engaging with your simplistic, 2 dimensional point about athletes and their identities.

    Good to see my ‘people who end their posts with bless are wankers’ suspicion continues to gather supporting evidence.
    You lost the point badly so resort to insults. Embarrassing!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.
  • ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Are you not watching the Lions?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,006
    ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Apart from the wickets, they’re playing great cricket!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    If true then sad we're back in the days of PMs and Chancellor's who despise each other or fear their maneuvering. And then we have to put up with them pretending they get on great, treating us like idiots. Embarrassing for Boris if he would be under threat from the party if he made such a move. No one cared he fired his last Chancellor (lead of all Sunak, who worked for the guy).

    I'd have thought the threat leaking when it almost certainly won't happen suggests Sunak leaked it and feels safe, for now.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    The funniest bit is the concept that The Clown goes through the contents of his ministerial red box. That is the job of assistant clowns.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,006
    Great kick!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Apart from the wickets, they’re playing great cricket!
    It’s India batting now, not England,
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Are you not watching the Lions?
    No, I’m watching the mane event.

    You asked for it...
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Well Brexiteers and Boris Johnson fans swear by Tim Shipman's All Out War book as evidence of the brilliance of Shippers.
    I am sure it is accurate but the quote above suggests the headline framing is overstated. The line seems more to be "if he wants to be responsible for health policy let him be responsible for health policy." More of a stay in his lane warning.

    I say this as someone that wants Boris out and Sunak in as soon as possible.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 1,026
    Finn Russell has been immense for the Lions
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Are you not watching the Lions?
    No, I’m watching the mane event.
    Do you feel pride about that?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    edited August 7
    Who thought that was a good review? Fecking daylight between the bat and the edge!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see we now have six medals in track and field. Disappointing to not get a gold, but I think it’s a decent return.

    Sounds absolute crap to me.
    I think that you are being harsh. Laura Muir's medal in particular was a really excellent effort.
    It would have been gold if Scotland was independent. ;)
    It would have been fuck all outside of Team GB/BOA funding tbh. It's what's turned the UK into a sporting powerhouse compared to years gone.
    It will be interesting to see if there is an effect from Scots so clearly proud to wear a team GB strip and doing really well in these games. According to Sky News Scotland has more medal winners than any other part of the UK per head of population but they all seem very proud to wave the Union Jack.
    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html
    They don't have any other option than waving the Butcher's Apron. It is a bloody scandal that there is not a Scottish team at the Olympics.
    The majority of Scots athletes are proud to embrace their British identity, just as a majority of Scots voted to stay British.
    Yep.
    This guy for example.


    Still struggling with the term "majority" I see. Bless.
    Oh? I thought I was engaging with your simplistic, 2 dimensional point about athletes and their identities.

    Good to see my ‘people who end their posts with bless are wankers’ suspicion continues to gather supporting evidence.
    You lost the point badly so resort to insults. Embarrassing!
    Posting on a following thread to convince yourself you ‘won’ a point. Embarrassing!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Good start by India. 34-1, one sixth of the way to their target.

    Apart from that wicket, they’ve looked in no trouble at all.

    Are you not watching the Lions?
    No, I’m watching the mane event.
    Do you feel pride about that?
    More about chasing the best game really.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,864
    “To lose one chancellor, Mr Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose two looks like carelessness" (Bernard Manning). He can't do it.
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 1,026
    ydoethur said:

    Who thought that was a good review? Fecking daylight between the bat and the edge!

    Root needs to listen to Buttler when he says there was no edge.. same happened yesterday.
  • Overall, the survey by Redfield & Wilton Strategies found that 47 per cent of Scots would vote against Scotland becoming an independent country if a referendum were held tomorrow, compared to 44 per cent who would vote yes.

    The poll for The Telegraph suggests that the UK Government's handling of Covid-19 vaccines may have boosted the standing of the union in Scotland, with 57 per cent agreeing that the successful early procurement of vaccines by Whitehall demonstrated the benefits of the union.

    However, 38 per cent of respondents said that Ms Sturgeon and Holyrood deserved the most credit for the success of the vaccine rollout in Scotland, compared to only 22 per cent who said that Boris Johnson and Westminster deserved the most credit.


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/08/07/support-independence-drops-significantly-scotland-set-join-euro/

    As for the rest of the poll, I'd remind you of the dangers of hypothetical polling.

    Hypothetical polls are a lot like Hawaiian pizzas, they should be avoided at all costs by right thinking people everywhere.

    https://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2019/12/01/your-regular-reminder-that-hypothetical-polls-can-be-as-accurate-as-an-american-war-film/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 35,006
    Penalty to the Lions.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Leave and Better Together were separate campaigns.

    The irony being of course that Leave was the equivalent of Yes Scotland, not Better Together, and used many of their arguments,
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited August 7
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Leave and Better Together were separate campaigns.

    The irony being of course that Leave was the equivalent of Yes Scotland, not Better Together, and used many of their arguments,
    I know, I just misuse was/were sometimes and am not good at proof reading. Fingers on autopilot then singularise the rest.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    I well remember Margaret Thunberg getting savaged by that sheep Geoffrey Howe. Time for Sunak to find his inner ovine.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,380
    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    I well remember Margaret Thunberg getting savaged by that sheep Geoffrey Howe. Time for Sunak to find his inner ovine.
    A dead sheep, Stuart, a dead sheep.

    So his inner deceased ovine is what he needs.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Bollox.

    Alistair Carmichael lied through his teeth and the bovine London media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    (Have I just mixed too many metaphors there?)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Richard Leonard?!?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Not sure Osborne fits in that category. Had Cameron won the Brexit referendum I think Osborne would have followed him as PM, he wanted it I think, but even years later there seems to be no indication the relationship had broken down after 6 years in office, and there would have been a smooth, friendly transition, compared to the Blair/Brown one.

    But I tihnk you are right about the two conditions for Boris to go. Despite personal ratings issues that's not enough on its own.
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see we now have six medals in track and field. Disappointing to not get a gold, but I think it’s a decent return.

    Sounds absolute crap to me.
    I think that you are being harsh. Laura Muir's medal in particular was a really excellent effort.
    It would have been gold if Scotland was independent. ;)
    It would have been fuck all outside of Team GB/BOA funding tbh. It's what's turned the UK into a sporting powerhouse compared to years gone.
    It will be interesting to see if there is an effect from Scots so clearly proud to wear a team GB strip and doing really well in these games. According to Sky News Scotland has more medal winners than any other part of the UK per head of population but they all seem very proud to wave the Union Jack.
    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html
    They don't have any other option than waving the Butcher's Apron. It is a bloody scandal that there is not a Scottish team at the Olympics.
    The majority of Scots athletes are proud to embrace their British identity, just as a majority of Scots voted to stay British.
    Yep.
    This guy for example.


    Still struggling with the term "majority" I see. Bless.
    Oh? I thought I was engaging with your simplistic, 2 dimensional point about athletes and their identities.

    Good to see my ‘people who end their posts with bless are wankers’ suspicion continues to gather supporting evidence.
    You lost the point badly so resort to insults. Embarrassing!
    Posting on a following thread to convince yourself you ‘won’ a point. Embarrassing!
    Mate, you thought a single example counteracted a statement about what a majority believes. No convincing is needed. You were obviously making a stupid response. Just swallow your pride, accept it and move on.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    HYUFD said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    I tend to agree.

    I am very aware of the pitfalls of complacency, but I am starting to think that Scottish Labour really have passed the point of no return. The Richard Leonard error was probably the coup de grâce.

    The age profile of their remaining voters is worrying.

    About 40% of their voters are pro-independence, which is astonishing as nearly everybody had assumed that they’d lost all their independence supporters back in 2015.

    They have zero talent. Murray and Sarwar are a weak pass, but behind them it is a desert.

    They are lazy. They never were very good at canvassing, streetwork etc, even when they had hegemony. Now they are totally invisible.

    Folk are now ashamed to admit that they vote Labour to their workmates and pals.

    They have no policies, or at least not a single one the general population have heard of. Apart of course from British Unionism, but you can’t out-Tory the Tories.

    On the constitution, they keep trying to fire up the ignition on federalism, about every three months. They’ve been doing that for half a century now. That motor ain’t never going to start; the technology is obsolete.

    Maybe all this SLab to SCon and SLD to SCon “tactical voting” is a mirage? Maybe those voters are lost for good? The SLab to SNP and SLab to SGP voters don’t look like they’re ever going “home”.
    There’s simply no space for them in Scotland.

    The SNP have become the main left wing party.
    (With the Greens of you are even more left wing, although my knowledge of the Scottish Greens is admittedly zero).
    Until we get an indyref2 and No wins again, dealing a potentially fatal blow to the SNP, or Yes wins and SLab can position itself to be the main centre left party again in an independent Scotland, then SLab is not really going anywhere.

    Hence it is in the Tories interest to keep denying indyref2 as long as they are in power at Westminster as it ensures they continue to benefit from most of the Unionist vote in Scotland while the SNP take most of the Nationalist and leftwing vote
    Out of interest, have you ever considered that your party should govern for the best interests of the country? All you ever give us is what is best for the Conservative Party which isn't the same thing at all.
    No, he hasn’t considered that.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see we now have six medals in track and field. Disappointing to not get a gold, but I think it’s a decent return.

    Sounds absolute crap to me.
    I think that you are being harsh. Laura Muir's medal in particular was a really excellent effort.
    It would have been gold if Scotland was independent. ;)
    It would have been fuck all outside of Team GB/BOA funding tbh. It's what's turned the UK into a sporting powerhouse compared to years gone.
    It will be interesting to see if there is an effect from Scots so clearly proud to wear a team GB strip and doing really well in these games. According to Sky News Scotland has more medal winners than any other part of the UK per head of population but they all seem very proud to wave the Union Jack.
    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html
    They don't have any other option than waving the Butcher's Apron. It is a bloody scandal that there is not a Scottish team at the Olympics.
    The majority of Scots athletes are proud to embrace their British identity, just as a majority of Scots voted to stay British.
    Yep.
    This guy for example.


    Still struggling with the term "majority" I see. Bless.
    Oh? I thought I was engaging with your simplistic, 2 dimensional point about athletes and their identities.

    Good to see my ‘people who end their posts with bless are wankers’ suspicion continues to gather supporting evidence.
    You lost the point badly so resort to insults. Embarrassing!
    Posting on a following thread to convince yourself you ‘won’ a point. Embarrassing!
    Mate, you thought a single example counteracted a statement about what a majority believes. No convincing is needed. You were obviously making a stupid response. Just swallow your pride, accept it and move on.
    ‘Mate’.
    One more strike and wankerdom absolutely confirmed,

    I’m just enjoying your rank inability to move on.
  • Bloody South Africans!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Bollox.

    Alistair Carmichael lied through his teeth and the bovine London media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    (Have I just mixed too many metaphors there?)
    I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You seem to think there is some argument going on about lying in the BetterTogether campaign, when I just don't see what you think that has to do with philliph's point about whether the report on Boris threatening to demote Sunak is true or not.

    I just don't see what the connection is with Carmichael being a big old liar. Or indeed with the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. The report about Boris/Sunak being untrue isn't part of some wider political or media campaign.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,380
    ydoethur said:

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.

    I might have known you'd call me out on a mistake - this is why I never went into teaching.

    Was Heath Shadow Chancellor under Douglas-Hume after the 1964 election defeat or was he the "Treasury and Economics Spokesman" ?
  • AslanAslan Posts: 735

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    Aslan said:

    malcolmg said:

    sarissa said:

    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html

    DavidL said:

    MaxPB said:

    tlg86 said:

    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see we now have six medals in track and field. Disappointing to not get a gold, but I think it’s a decent return.

    Sounds absolute crap to me.
    I think that you are being harsh. Laura Muir's medal in particular was a really excellent effort.
    It would have been gold if Scotland was independent. ;)
    It would have been fuck all outside of Team GB/BOA funding tbh. It's what's turned the UK into a sporting powerhouse compared to years gone.
    It will be interesting to see if there is an effect from Scots so clearly proud to wear a team GB strip and doing really well in these games. According to Sky News Scotland has more medal winners than any other part of the UK per head of population but they all seem very proud to wave the Union Jack.
    https://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/08/just-reminder-that-we-have-hard.html
    They don't have any other option than waving the Butcher's Apron. It is a bloody scandal that there is not a Scottish team at the Olympics.
    The majority of Scots athletes are proud to embrace their British identity, just as a majority of Scots voted to stay British.
    Yep.
    This guy for example.


    Still struggling with the term "majority" I see. Bless.
    Oh? I thought I was engaging with your simplistic, 2 dimensional point about athletes and their identities.

    Good to see my ‘people who end their posts with bless are wankers’ suspicion continues to gather supporting evidence.
    You lost the point badly so resort to insults. Embarrassing!
    Posting on a following thread to convince yourself you ‘won’ a point. Embarrassing!
    Mate, you thought a single example counteracted a statement about what a majority believes. No convincing is needed. You were obviously making a stupid response. Just swallow your pride, accept it and move on.
    ‘Mate’.
    One more strike and wankerdom absolutely confirmed,

    I’m just enjoying your rank inability to move on.
    I would make a joke about greenhouses, but I know there's no sunlight in Scotland. No wonder you lot are so angry all the time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.

    I might have known you'd call me out on a mistake - this is why I never went into teaching.

    Was Heath Shadow Chancellor under Douglas-Hume after the 1964 election defeat or was he the "Treasury and Economics Spokesman" ?
    He was. But that wasn’t really relevant. Shadow Chancellors can’t demonstrate technocratic skill.

    Just look at Annelise Dodds...
  • stodge said:

    ydoethur said:

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.

    I might have known you'd call me out on a mistake - this is why I never went into teaching.

    Was Heath Shadow Chancellor under Douglas-Hume after the 1964 election defeat or was he the "Treasury and Economics Spokesman" ?
    Shadow Chancellor for 9 months shortly after the 1964 defeat.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Richard Leonard?!?
    I'd make a 'Who?' gag, except it genuinely took a few seconds to remember who he was.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Bollox.

    Alistair Carmichael lied through his teeth and the bovine London media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    (Have I just mixed too many metaphors there?)
    I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You seem to think there is some argument going on about lying in the BetterTogether campaign, when I just don't see what you think that has to do with philliph's point about whether the report on Boris threatening to demote Sunak is true or not.

    I just don't see what the connection is with Carmichael being a big old liar. Or indeed with the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. The report about Boris/Sunak being untrue isn't part of some wider political or media campaign.
    I’m fascinated that someone so obviously interested in politics thinks that “truth” is somehow important.

    Do you also believe in the magic money tree?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Bollox.

    Alistair Carmichael lied through his teeth and the bovine London media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    (Have I just mixed too many metaphors there?)
    I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You seem to think there is some argument going on about lying in the BetterTogether campaign, when I just don't see what you think that has to do with philliph's point about whether the report on Boris threatening to demote Sunak is true or not.

    I just don't see what the connection is with Carmichael being a big old liar. Or indeed with the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. The report about Boris/Sunak being untrue isn't part of some wider political or media campaign.
    I’m fascinated that someone so obviously interested in politics thinks that “truth” is somehow important.

    Do you also believe in the magic money tree?
    Not since Gutenberg explained the basic principles and showed it wasn’t magic.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    Shades of the Thatcher and Lawson tensions between Boris and Sunak it seems.

    Lawson eventually resigned but Thatcher was forced out as PM and leader a year later and replaced by Lawson's successor, John Major
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 5,368
    kle4 said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Richard Leonard?!?
    I'd make a 'Who?' gag, except it genuinely took a few seconds to remember who he was.
    Poor old Richard. A real life “Lost Boy” if ever I saw one.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    edited August 7

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    Far from it, the Tories are shoring up the Union by refusing an indyref2, you will only ever get a legal indyref2 with a UK Labour government reliant on SNP support
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 6,638
    HYUFD said:

    Shades of the Thatcher and Lawson tensions between Boris and Sunak it seems.

    Lawson eventually resigned but Thatcher was forced out as PM and leader a year later and replaced by Lawson's successor, John Major

    Really? I didn’t know that was what happened. Do tell us more!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    HYUFD said:

    Shades of the Thatcher and Lawson tensions between Boris and Sunak it seems.

    Lawson eventually resigned but Thatcher was forced out as PM and leader a year later and replaced by Lawson's successor, John Major

    Substitute Javid for Lawson...hmmm 🤔
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 9,864
    Is Sunak tainted by a Dom connection? If so how much does that matter within the parliamentary party?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 64,573

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Richard Leonard?!?
    Was he a leader?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    Congrats to @Foxy on Leicester beating City even with Grealish playing
  • RogerRoger Posts: 14,946
    There is an honourable tradition of sacking (or worse) Young Pretenders. I'm all for it.

    Richi let's not forget was behind the 'Eat Out to Help Out' campaign which measured in lives will certainly dwarf Harold Shipman.

    Both out would be best but Richi's a good start
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,647
    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.
    FPT

    And the Battle of Berlin of 1813 is actually known as the Battle of Grossbeeren (or Großbeeren if you're into that sort of thing):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Großbeeren
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,769
    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    If the economy fails in the next 24 months, as I believe it could, and if Sunak is already out of No 11 when it fails, it could bode very well for Sunak's bid for the top job. He could quite easily say "the economy was going supremely well on my watch, and I saved the economy from Covid. However, after I left I was disappointed in some of Chancellor Williamson's/ Dowden's decisions, they wouldn't have been mine"

    Sunak strikes me as a serious grafter. I suspect he is also absolutely ruthless. He is more than a match for a lazy-arsed chancer.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 44,668
    HYUFD said:

    Shades of the Thatcher and Lawson tensions between Boris and Sunak it seems.

    Lawson eventually resigned but Thatcher was forced out as PM and leader a year later and replaced by Lawson's successor, John Major

    Veteran commentators, such as Rawnsley, have been saying for months that eventually No 10 and 11 would blow up. Not least because Johnson does not understand money and is a total spendthrift and Sunak is not.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 69,759
    edited August 7

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    philiph said:

    It is only an excellent piece if it is factually true and accurate, which with politicians, journalists and leaking aids or civil servants is very hard to know.

    Bollox.

    There was nothing “factually true or accurate” about the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. Lying through your teeth works.

    Mind you, after hubris comes nemesis.
    That seems like an odd take to me. Leave/Better Together was a political campaign, and some are better than others about being truthful. Surely all philiph was saying is this is a report of one conversation, and if it is not an accurate report then it means nothing? That's an entirely different situation - if Boris never said such a thing (though they are clearly confident he did) then obviously it would be meaningless, whereas a particular claim by a political campaign being untrue is a small part of a bigger thing.
    Bollox.

    Alistair Carmichael lied through his teeth and the bovine London media swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

    (Have I just mixed too many metaphors there?)
    I honestly have no idea what point you are attempting to make. You seem to think there is some argument going on about lying in the BetterTogether campaign, when I just don't see what you think that has to do with philliph's point about whether the report on Boris threatening to demote Sunak is true or not.

    I just don't see what the connection is with Carmichael being a big old liar. Or indeed with the Leave or BetterTogether campaigns. The report about Boris/Sunak being untrue isn't part of some wider political or media campaign.
    I’m fascinated that someone so obviously interested in politics thinks that “truth” is somehow important.

    Do you also believe in the magic money tree?
    Everyone does.

    But I'm still bemused as to your point. No I don't think whether something is true or not inherently matters all the time nor did I say so so gods only knows why you brought it up, but there are times truth does matter - here the question is did Boris threaten to demote Sunak or not. If he did, then that matters for self evident reasons. If he didn't, then the fact of it being untrue does actually matter, since it would mean the Boris/Sunak relationship is not at the point of breaking down.

    You just seem to be intent with banging some drum about a past political campaign and trying to relate that to a very individual situation between Boris and Sunak, and the question of their relationship - if they are actually bosom pals who play tennis together every day or some such rubbish, then the report being true or untrue would matter.

    To use your example, Carmichael's lie didn't matter much in the moment because it was useful as part of a cause - it couldn't be proven instantly, and his allies had no care whether it was true or not. If Boris and Sunak are getting along great, then the lie would not aid anyone since their relationship would be unaffected by the lie, whereas Carmichael's like (he hoped) would have an effect.

    Can't you see the difference between those situations? For whatever reason you seem to think a general philosophical point was being made, but this is about specifcs.

    Even if a lie would have an effect, and here it wouldn't, if something is true or not and that is proven it affects things moving forward so still matters at least to an extent. Carmichael presumably doesn't lie about everything, but he must find it harder to defend against such an accusation because of the falsehoods he made.

    We're all cynical about politics and know untruths have effect. But it's not 'deep' or wise to pretend that that literally means it doesn't matter what is true or not at least sometimes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    It's the story of so many British Governments - the breakdown in relations between Numbers 10 and 11.

    There are two types of Chancellor - the ambitious and the technocratic. The former has men like Osborne, Brown, Heath, Callaghan, Jenkins, Healey and Sunak among others, men who expect to be if not the next Prime Minister of leader of their party then to be a very strong contender for that post.

    On the other, you have the "money men" such as Barber, Lawson, Darling and to an extent Lamont. They have reached the top of the political tree and want to be left to do their job competently and with the minimum interference from next door.

    Yet, it makes no difference - the relationship breaks down as trust or confidence is lost.

    In this respect, the decline of the Johnson-Sunak relationship is of no great surprise.

    The second part of it is this - Johnson is safe as Conservative leader until both the following conditions are met - a) he looks like a loser and b) someone else looks like a winner.

    No party removes a leader until or unless there is a better alternative in terms of electability (or ensuring backbenches in marginal seats keep their jobs).

    Edward Heath was never Chancellor.
    FPT

    And the Battle of Berlin of 1813 is actually known as the Battle of Grossbeeren (or Großbeeren if you're into that sort of thing):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Großbeeren
    My ‘Berlin’ comment also covered the subsequent Battle of Dennewitz.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dennewitz
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    If the economy fails in the next 24 months, as I believe it could, and if Sunak is already out of No 11 when it fails, it could bode very well for Sunak's bid for the top job. He could quite easily say "the economy was going supremely well on my watch, and I saved the economy from Covid. However, after I left I was disappointed in some of Chancellor Williamson's/ Dowden's decisions, they wouldn't have been mine"

    Sunak strikes me as a serious grafter. I suspect he is also absolutely ruthless. He is more than a match for a lazy-arsed chancer.
    Fuck me.

    Don’t even go there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641
    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640

    Sunak is 25/1 as next out of the cabinet with Ladbrokes.

    Just saying.

    With odds boost I got a fiver on at 29/1

    Reinvesting some of my Charity Shield winnings.

    Leicester dominated that. Pep played the kids, but badly needs a proper striker. Grealish gets a gold🏅 in the diving, the baboon arsed Villa reject.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,760
    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    edited August 7

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug


    Redfield & Wilton Strategies
    @RedfieldWilton
    ·
    12m
    Would Scots support or oppose a referendum on Scottish independence being held...

    ...in the next year?

    Support: 40%
    Oppose: 47%
    Neither: 11%

    ...later than a year from now, but within the next five years?

    Support: 42%
    Oppose: 40%
    Neither: 14%
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,504
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    I recall many on this site predicting the end when it hit highs of 56%..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    edited August 7
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    In a country which was 62% Remain for Yes to be down to just 44% ie below its 45% score in 2014 including undecideds, after Brexit is a very poor result for Nationalists
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    He was popular after he was beaten because he reminded the British of their strength and brilliance.

    Not so much while he was alive and in power.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    I recall many on this site predicting the end when it hit highs of 56%..
    Ditto for No, of late.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,329
    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    Yes, I think the the period of the First Republic, there was quite a lot of sympathy for the French revolutionaries from the British public. Indeed there was also a lot of support for the American rebels just a few years before. Unpopular wars and not a modern invention.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    In a country which was 62% Remain for Yes to be down to just 44% ie below its 45% score in 2014 including undecideds, after Brexit is a very poor result for Nationalists
    Wait till you see how much No has lost off its 55% score in 2014.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Mr Salmond called indyref 1 when yes was at about 25-28%, as I recall.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    edited August 7
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some pastors, ministers and elders
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 12,769
    edited August 7
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    If the economy fails in the next 24 months, as I believe it could, and if Sunak is already out of No 11 when it fails, it could bode very well for Sunak's bid for the top job. He could quite easily say "the economy was going supremely well on my watch, and I saved the economy from Covid. However, after I left I was disappointed in some of Chancellor Williamson's/ Dowden's decisions, they wouldn't have been mine"

    Sunak strikes me as a serious grafter. I suspect he is also absolutely ruthless. He is more than a match for a lazy-arsed chancer.
    Fuck me.

    Don’t even go there.
    You forgot to highlight Dowden. A halfwit of gargantuan proportions.

    Either would make Johnson look like an utter genius.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,647
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    You mean it was Amiens to an end?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,008
    Foxy said:

    Sunak is 25/1 as next out of the cabinet with Ladbrokes.

    Just saying.

    With odds boost I got a fiver on at 29/1

    Reinvesting some of my Charity Shield winnings.

    Leicester dominated that. Pep played the kids, but badly needs a proper striker. Grealish gets a gold🏅 in the diving, the baboon arsed Villa reject.
    It's down to 28/1 with odds boost. I've put a tenner on.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,504
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Mr Salmond called indyref 1 when yes was at about 25-28%, as I recall.
    At a time when the context was entirely different.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 34,130
    .

    The funniest bit is the concept that The Clown goes through the contents of his ministerial red box. That is the job of assistant clowns.

    You'd have thought at least one assistant clown might have mentioned it to him, though.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    Far from it, the Tories are shoring up the Union by refusing an indyref2, you will only ever get a legal indyref2 with a UK Labour government reliant on SNP support
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    FPT (slightly edited)

    EXC: Boris Johnson threatened to demote Rishi Sunak from chancellor to health secretary last week (in front of a dozen witnesses)

    https://twitter.com/shippersunbound/status/1424053828207394820

    Because Sunak would obviously have taken such a demotion rather than going to the backbenches and making a devastating resignation speech.

    Forget Boris Derangement Syndrome, if true this is Deranged Boris Syndrome.
    If the economy fails in the next 24 months, as I believe it could, and if Sunak is already out of No 11 when it fails, it could bode very well for Sunak's bid for the top job. He could quite easily say "the economy was going supremely well on my watch, and I saved the economy from Covid. However, after I left I was disappointed in some of Chancellor Williamson's/ Dowden's decisions, they wouldn't have been mine"

    Sunak strikes me as a serious grafter. I suspect he is also absolutely ruthless. He is more than a match for a lazy-arsed chancer.
    Fuck me.

    Don’t even go there.
    You forgot to highlight Dowden. A halfwit of gargantuan proportions.

    Either would make Johnson look like an utter genius.
    Williamson has brought the national education system to the point of implosion, I do not want to see what he would do let loose on the national economy.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 30,264
    edited August 7

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 meaning No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 15,641
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    I suppose one cannot blame Napoleon entirely, come to think of it, but he wouldn't have helped. And that is an interesting point anent slavery.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    You mean it was Amiens to an end?
    That pun doesn’t work if you speak French.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 10,760
    edited August 7
    ydoethur said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    He was popular after he was beaten because he reminded the British of their strength and brilliance.

    Not so much while he was alive and in power.
    Boney was a warrior, and so on? Sounds fair. (Now I'm going to have that running through my head all night.)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 90,587
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Mr Salmond called indyref 1 when yes was at about 25-28%, as I recall.
    He was only able to call it as Mr Cameron agreed, Mr Johnson however has made clear he will refuse an indyref2 so that is that
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 27,640
    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

  • stodgestodge Posts: 9,380
    kle4 said:


    Not sure Osborne fits in that category. Had Cameron won the Brexit referendum I think Osborne would have followed him as PM, he wanted it I think, but even years later there seems to be no indication the relationship had broken down after 6 years in office, and there would have been a smooth, friendly transition, compared to the Blair/Brown one.

    But I think you are right about the two conditions for Boris to go. Despite personal ratings issues that's not enough on its own.

    I'm not convinced the Osborne-Cameron personal relationship was the same after the "pasty budget".

    In public, of course, it's all congenial and friendly but I just suspect Osborne would have dumped Cameron had the latter failed to win the 2015 GE and tacked the party more to the Right.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,504

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 43,248
    edited August 7

    ydoethur said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    He was popular after he was beaten because he reminded the British of their strength and brilliance.

    Not so much while he was alive and in power.
    Boney was a warrior, and so on. Sounds fair. (Now I'm going to have that running through my head all night.)
    I was thinking of that too.

    When I first heard it, I was quite small and thought they sang ‘Boney was a worrier.’

    The irony being of course one way he won his battles was by not worrying about the lives of his men.
This discussion has been closed.