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Could Johnson be planning to sack Sunak? – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,120


    You forgot to highlight Dowden. A halfwit of gargantuan proportions.

    Either would make Johnson look like an utter genius.

    Dowden is just awful. He was at Goodwood and was interviewed on ITV Racing and could not utter a single coherent sentence.

    I'm not assuming he'd enjoyed an excellent lunch because that would be inappropriate and I've heard him on other occasions so that can't be cited as an excuse.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 10,120
    On a completely unrelated, to have one General Election in a year might be considered normal, to have two might be considered unusual but could Bulgaria squeeze in a third General Election in 2021?

    https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/reuters/bulgaria-s-anti-elite-itn-party-proposes-minority-government/46848900
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    Having already been arresting and intimidating opposition candidates, and this, seems like holding the election would just be a wasted effort from the President,might as well save time.

    The main opposition party in Nicaragua has been disqualified ahead of the country's November elections...

    Nicaragua's supreme electoral council accused CXL of carrying out "verbal acts that undermine independence, sovereignty and auto-determination".


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-58125419
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    edited August 2021
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Members of the House of Laity of the Church of England Synod are elected, only the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is elected.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Mr Salmond called indyref 1 when yes was at about 25-28%, as I recall.
    Not really. Not unless you're going to pick a very odd starting point and do a HYUFD and assign all unknowns to No. IndyRef 1 was called after the SNP won the 2011 Holyrood election. In the very first opinion poll after that it was Yes 37%, No 45%

    Strip out unknowns and that becomes Yes 45%, No 55%

    There was absolutely no swing at all between the very first opinion poll after the 2011 election and IndyRef being called, and the actual result.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    Far from it, the Tories are shoring up the Union by refusing an indyref2, you will only ever get a legal indyref2 with a UK Labour government reliant on SNP support
    You missed out the gunboats and tanks. Otherwise a quintessential FUDHY post.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,027

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    'We all'?
    Which wee doggy do you have in the game?
  • stodge said:


    You forgot to highlight Dowden. A halfwit of gargantuan proportions.

    Either would make Johnson look like an utter genius.

    Dowden is just awful. He was at Goodwood and was interviewed on ITV Racing and could not utter a single coherent sentence.

    I'm not assuming he'd enjoyed an excellent lunch because that would be inappropriate and I've heard him on other occasions so that can't be cited as an excuse.
    The bushfire of 2015-20 did get rid of a lot of people who, in a normal world, would be senior ministers or opposition spokesmen about now. Hence the lack of talent on both sides.

    Going back to the header, there's obviously a question as to how seriously to take Boris when he says stuff, but talking about demoting Rishi was a dumb thing for him to have said, wasn't it? Behaviour management 101 is "don't make a threat you can't or won't carry out". And being reported doing anything in a tone of frustrated impotence isn't a good look for a PM.

    Conclusion: Team Rishi (surely this is from them, and the fact they are leaking this shows how weak they judge Johnson to be) are backing a young man in a hurry. I wonder what the rush is.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    Nigelb said:

    .

    The funniest bit is the concept that The Clown goes through the contents of his ministerial red box. That is the job of assistant clowns.

    You'd have thought at least one assistant clown might have mentioned it to him, though.
    The assistant clowns think he’s a twat. They ain’t wrong.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    edited August 2021

    Also from the piece.

    Few expect a reshuffle before the new year but it is understood that Johnson has, in the past, considered Truss, a former chief secretary to the Treasury, as Britain’s first female chancellor, with Jacob Rees-Mogg as her deputy. “The PM keeps talking about Liz Truss,” a source said. “He’s always got on quite well with her. He thinks she’s controllable.”

    In what parallel universe is being ‘controllable’ by our buffoon of a PM any sort of qualification for high office?

    He can’t even control parts of his own body, let alone other people.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    I suppose one cannot blame Napoleon entirely, come to think of it, but he wouldn't have helped. And that is an interesting point anent slavery.
    In the round the view that had he won at Waterloo the world would have turned better rather than worse is reasonably persuasive.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 51,464
    edited August 2021
    HYUFD said:
    Opinium also say the state of play between the two main parties has been stable for months
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine
    I love the smell of complacency in the morning.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,904

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Ah yes - as easy as that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    isam said:

    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
    34% approve of Boris to only 28% who approve of Starmer, though Starmer has a higher net score than Boris, -11% to -15%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424083672156844038?s=20

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424084175519354886?s=20
  • Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine
    I love the smell of complacency in the morning.
    I am not complacent

    I trust the Scots to vote to stay in the union and am very confident that will be the end result if and when indyref2 takes place
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
    34% approve of Boris to only 28% who approve of Starmer, though Starmer has a higher net score than Boris, -11% to -15%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424083672156844038?s=20

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424084175519354886?s=20
    Net shmet
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    All of which makes me think that you reject the core teachings of Christ. It’s the politics that attract you.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    edited August 2021

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    There would then be years of Scexit negotiations and a hard border between England and Scotland, if a future Labour government reliant on SNP support allowed an indyref2 and Yes won unless that Labour government had taken the UK back into the single market and/or customs union which would make a Yes vote less likely anyway
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,575
    Off topic...

    My brother in law has given me a bottle of Peroni alcohol free.

    I thought I'd give it a go. Might be pleasantly surprised.

    No. Pish.

    A good advertisement for soft drinks.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
  • Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine
    I love the smell of complacency in the morning.
    Sadly the complacency is coming from Nicola's side.

    I wanted Yes to win in 2014 but the simple fact is that they lost - and they've not answered any of the questions that were brought up which fed into their defeat.

    Simply harbouring a grudge that "Scotland was dragged out of the EU against its will" doesn't answer any of the causes as to why Yes lost the referendum in 2014.

    A leader seriously seeking independence would have spent the last few years furthering the cause of the movement. Number one of which would be figuring out an answer to the basic question as to what currency an independent Scotland would use? What Central Bank would Scotland have?

    Without answering these questions credibly, the reasons Scotland voted No last time still exist today. Even if Scotland "was dragged out of the EU", a grudge is not enough.
  • HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    There would then be years of Scexit negotiations and a hard border between England and Scotland, if a future Labour government reliant on SNP support allowed an indyref2 and Yes won unless that Labour government had taken the UK back into the single market and/or customs union which would make a Yes vote less likely anyway
    It would be Brexit on steroids for the Scots
  • HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    All of which makes me think that you reject the core teachings of Christ. It’s the politics that attract you.
    He's Church of England.

    What has Christ got to do with the subject?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Ah yes - as easy as that.
    Forgiveness is not easy. But we’ll do it anyway. That’s cos we’re the adults in this relationship.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    edited August 2021
    Hmm, this is an interesting chart if accurate. Records in other events seem to be broken all the time.


  • IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Britain was crucial to both. The Royal Navy stopped the transatlantic slave trade. France didn't. Of course, things trundled on in the American ex-colonies for a bit.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 6,236

    Off topic...

    My brother in law has given me a bottle of Peroni alcohol free.

    I thought I'd give it a go. Might be pleasantly surprised.

    No. Pish.

    A good advertisement for soft drinks.

    I've drunk a lot of alcohol free beer over the past year.
    I started out with Brewdog Nanny State, because it's not an alcohol free version of another beer that I like. Two weeks drinking that, and other alcohol free beers start tasting like crumulent drinks in their own right, rather than less-good versions of drinks you already like.
    I mainly drink Punk AF and Erdinger alcohol free.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    There was nothing wrong with having a brief moment of celebration at the defeat of an opponent.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 6,236

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    I actually laughed out loud at this - especially the 'magnanimous' - before I saw it was from Stuart and therefore possibly meant seriously. Or possibly not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Ironically, the Americans also abolished the trans-Atlantic slave trade in American vessels before Britain did. About a week before.

    It just took another sixty years for them to work out that was only the start.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 39,709
    Tonight’s betting challenge…one of these guys is surely Malc of this parish:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ_3hsCDp7k

    All you have to do is spot the true Malc…lay your bets, please…

    My money’s on number three.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Britain was crucial to both. The Royal Navy stopped the transatlantic slave trade. France didn't. Of course, things trundled on in the American ex-colonies for a bit.
    Mauretania trundled on until 1981!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    edited August 2021

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    All of which makes me think that you reject the core teachings of Christ. It’s the politics that attract you.
    All Christians by definition accept the teachings of Christ, even Muslims see Christ as a prophet, if I didn't I would be Jewish or atheist.

    However the Catholics and high church Anglicans tend to emphasise the importance of weekly holy communion with liturgy and that Christ is present in the Eucharist and believe bishops hold the fullness of the sacrimant of holy orders and are responsible for teaching doctrine and leadership. Plus Catholics believe the Pope is the direct successor of St Peter.

    Evangelicals however tend to be less keen on bishops and also tend to place less emphasis on holy communion, often not even having weekly Eucharist, instead being more bible based focusing on sermons and worship songs. Evangelicals only believe in Christ's spiritual presence in the Eucharist unlike Catholics and Anglo Catholic Anglicans who believe in Christ's corporeal presence in the Eucharist.

    So there is a doctrinal difference too
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 38,596
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    I suppose one cannot blame Napoleon entirely, come to think of it, but he wouldn't have helped. And that is an interesting point anent slavery.
    Napoleon, of course, reintroduced slavery in France.
    And his forces fought a brutal war in Haiti to put down the slave rebellion (the cost of which meant France was forced to sell its French possessions).
  • stodge said:


    You forgot to highlight Dowden. A halfwit of gargantuan proportions.

    Either would make Johnson look like an utter genius.

    Dowden is just awful. He was at Goodwood and was interviewed on ITV Racing and could not utter a single coherent sentence.

    I'm not assuming he'd enjoyed an excellent lunch because that would be inappropriate and I've heard him on other occasions so that can't be cited as an excuse.
    The bushfire of 2015-20 did get rid of a lot of people who, in a normal world, would be senior ministers or opposition spokesmen about now. Hence the lack of talent on both sides.

    Going back to the header, there's obviously a question as to how seriously to take Boris when he says stuff, but talking about demoting Rishi was a dumb thing for him to have said, wasn't it? Behaviour management 101 is "don't make a threat you can't or won't carry out". And being reported doing anything in a tone of frustrated impotence isn't a good look for a PM.

    Conclusion: Team Rishi (surely this is from them, and the fact they are leaking this shows how weak they judge Johnson to be) are backing a young man in a hurry. I wonder what the rush is.
    The leak is not from Team Rishi, surely? How would they know what happened inside Number 10? Team Continuity Cummings, perhaps? Or possibly just someone passing on gossip in exchange for a nice lunch. There's not always a plot.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,904
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    I actually laughed out loud at this - especially the 'magnanimous' - before I saw it was from Stuart and therefore possibly meant seriously. Or possibly not.
    Im pretty certain SD is just the SNPs HFUYD
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 13,167
    edited August 2021

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Britain was crucial to both. The Royal Navy stopped the transatlantic slave trade. France didn't. Of course, things trundled on in the American ex-colonies for a bit.
    Mauretania trundled on until 1981!
    Fainthearts! Slavery here was abolished in... [QI question]
    https://youtu.be/1j4XrIhqIic
  • CookieCookie Posts: 6,236
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Surely easier just to get rid of the bishops from the HoL rather than include all the other cheerleaders for the various religions? Also gives us the opportunity to berate those who would oppose this for their antidisestablishmentarianism - which is an opportunity one should never pass up.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
    Of course she was.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
    She’s entitled to celebrate her side winning a seat, and especially when it’s taking out another leader. I can’t see the problem

    It would might have been worthy of criticism if she were celebrating an MP she disagreed with losing a seat in England with such gusto, ie not celebrating a SNP win. But even then, so what really?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 44,700
    HYUFD said:

    leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    So, a potential solution to the housing crisis, while also boosting the Italian economy.

    Smart.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Members of the House of Laity of the Church of England Synod are elected, only the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is elected.

    Dearie dearie me.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    edited August 2021
    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Surely easier just to get rid of the bishops from the HoL rather than include all the other cheerleaders for the various religions? Also gives us the opportunity to berate those who would oppose this for their antidisestablishmentarianism - which is an opportunity one should never pass up.
    As long as there is an unelected House of Lords we must have some bishops in it.

    I am a proud supporter of antidisestablishmentarianism
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    There was nothing wrong with having a brief moment of celebration at the defeat of an opponent.
    It was really demeaning, looked like an Ingerland supporter on 12 pints of lager and a gram of inferior coke doing a GET IN THERE MY SON.

    Tangentially, it turns out that that St Francis prayer is utterly bogus, like Flower of Scotland and that Desiderata thing hippies used to have on their walls at university. It first crops up in French in 1912 and has nothing to do with St Francis. Entertainingly the original of Where there is discord, may we bring harmony is Là où il y a la discorde, que je mette l'union, so not the best text for Spurgeon post victory, perhaps.

    All of which rather sadly sums up Maggie's Abigail's Party vibe. There from the outset.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    If people want a discussion about electing bishops, there is an election for a new Bishop of Brecon on the 1st September, follows shortly thereafter by an election for the next Archbishop of Wales.

    No idea who the first will be, but since there are in effect only two candidates for the second and one of them is divorced, the smart money should be on Gregory Cameron of St Asaph.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467

    Off topic...

    My brother in law has given me a bottle of Peroni alcohol free.

    I thought I'd give it a go. Might be pleasantly surprised.

    No. Pish.

    A good advertisement for soft drinks.

    Heineken alcohol free is quite decent, and Brewdog AF too. I often drink them when driving.

    Alcohol free wine is undrinkable though.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 57,209
    isam said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
    She’s entitled to celebrate her side winning a seat, and especially when it’s taking out another leader. I can’t see the problem

    It would might have been worthy of criticism if she were celebrating an MP she disagreed with losing a seat in England with such gusto, ie not celebrating a SNP win. But even then, so what really?
    No problem, but it certainly doesn't make her magnanimous.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
    Not a Unionist, just doing the calling it like I see it thang.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 7,526
    .
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Mr Salmond called indyref 1 when yes was at about 25-28%, as I recall.
    Disingenuous much.

    On the Wikipedia page that collates opinion polling prior to the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence I can see three opinion polls with 25% for Yes, all by TNS BMRB.

    Over the same time period as these three opinion polls we can also see that there were a number of other opinion polls, one of which put support for Independence as high as 44%.

    It's undeniable that there was an increase in support for Independence during the referendum campaign, and we have been living with the evidence of that in subsequent elections to Holyrood and Westminster, but why would you make such easily falsifiable claims about the degree of that change? It's HYUFD-esque.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,153

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Ah yes - as easy as that.
    Forgiveness is not easy. But we’ll do it anyway. That’s cos we’re the adults in this relationship.
    Ah yes. Forgiveness. Because you are so hard done by.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 97,799
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    So, a potential solution to the housing crisis, while also boosting the Italian economy.

    Smart.
    Few of them would actually move to Rome, just would lead to more Catholic churches being built in England as most of their congregation would move with them
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467
    Nigelb said:

    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    I suppose one cannot blame Napoleon entirely, come to think of it, but he wouldn't have helped. And that is an interesting point anent slavery.
    Napoleon, of course, reintroduced slavery in France.
    And his forces fought a brutal war in Haiti to put down the slave rebellion (the cost of which meant France was forced to sell its French possessions).
    Though we sent 30 000 troops too to fight the Hatian Republicans. A disaster of a campaign with many dead from disease.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    All of which makes me think that you reject the core teachings of Christ. It’s the politics that attract you.
    He's Church of England.

    What has Christ got to do with the subject?
    Aha. Fair call. I forgot.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,153

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    Have you never been delighted in the success of a friend? A friend who had cancer on her face aged 19 and lost much of a cheekbone and facial skin.

    “If I was to hear that result all over again for the first time I’d react in exactly the same way. I wasn’t celebrating Jo Swinson’s defeat, I was celebrating the victory of a 27-year-old woman who fought a brilliant campaign against all the odds. A young woman who has overcome a lot of personal adversity in her own life to get to this point and who deserved to win that election.”

    I know Unionists think the world revolves around them and their anointed representatives on Earth, but it really doesn’t.
    We’ll never know. Those of us closer to the situation than Sweden might take a different view.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,027
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Tbf HYUFD was convinced that CoS had bishops up till a couple of years ago. His grasp of the issue is on a par with his grasp of Scottish geography and ferry routes.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 7,153

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Ah yes - as easy as that.
    Forgiveness is not easy. But we’ll do it anyway. That’s cos we’re the adults in this relationship.
    There are many ways to describe your behaviour on this board but “adult” isn’t one of them.
  • isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Based on the polling... ??
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 1,904
    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Brexit did change everything - it showed how bloody tough it was to do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Tbf HYUFD was convinced that CoS had bishops up till a couple of years ago. His grasp of the issue is on a par with his grasp of Scottish geography and ferry routes.
    Ah, Flanders and Swann on the Scotsman:

    ‘He hasn’t got bishops to show him the way.’

    Which is untrue, of course, it’s just they’re not bishops in the Church of Scotland.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,575
    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
    34% approve of Boris to only 28% who approve of Starmer, though Starmer has a higher net score than Boris, -11% to -15%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424083672156844038?s=20

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424084175519354886?s=20
    I suppose all of the Don't Knows can be assumed to actually love Bozo and despise Keir.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Britain was crucial to both. The Royal Navy stopped the transatlantic slave trade. France didn't. Of course, things trundled on in the American ex-colonies for a bit.
    And they incentivized the RN to rescue slaves by monetizing them, a tiny bit ironically.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518
    edited August 2021
    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    There was nothing wrong with having a brief moment of celebration at the defeat of an opponent.
    It was really demeaning, looked like an Ingerland supporter on 12 pints of lager and a gram of inferior coke doing a GET IN THERE MY SON.
    That may well be so, but if someone is going to celebrate in a manner some see as uncouth that's up to them. I don't think you'd want to overdo it, but I don't see what's worth getting worked up about either. More genuine that phoney words about respecting each other and the like.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Based on the polling... ??
    No, just based on the result last time, and what has changed since
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 33,027
    edited August 2021

    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Brexit did change everything - it showed how bloody tough it was to do.
    And yet here we are, Brexit done, Brexiteers quaffing Remoaner tears, a refulgent Team Global GB winning medals and selling Stilton in Japan.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 47,939
    IshmaelZ said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Carnyx said:

    Napoleon. Not a historian but dimly recall an Antiques Roadshow expert saying Napoleon, despite being our enemy, was actually quite popular here, as witnessed by contemporary memorabilia.

    I'm just wondering how far he was (ultimately) responsible for the grinding halt to political progress in the UK from about 1790 onwards - and the counterreaction against progressives and radicals. It would not have been safe to have such stuff at certain times. I wonder how 'contemporary' was contemporary?

    Though I imagine this po-pot was pretty safe to have in the commode:

    https://ageofrevolution.org/200-object/chamber-pot-with-napoleons-head/

    To some extent. They made Pitt’s proposed constitutional reforms more or less impossible.

    On the other hand, the revolutionary wars were eventually used to justify the abolition of slavery under Grenville in 1807.
    It was the slave trade rather than slavery itself that was abolished in 1807 surely? And in large part because of the successful revolution in Haiti. Suddenly slavery didn't appear such a great idea...

    Yes, sorry, typing error. Slavery wasn’t abolished until 1830-37.

    The ideas though are not what I was talking about. The means used to abolish the slave trade was by declaring slaves to be war contraband and giving the Royal Navy the power to search neutral ships and seize any war contraband destined for France. Then, having kneecapped around a third of the slave trade, it was much easier to argue for getting rid of the rest.

    Extraordinarily clever, but would hardly have worked except in time of war.
    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.
    Britain was crucial to both. The Royal Navy stopped the transatlantic slave trade. France didn't. Of course, things trundled on in the American ex-colonies for a bit.
    And they incentivized the RN to rescue slaves by monetizing them, a tiny bit ironically.
    In 1830 the government actually bought the slaves from their owners prior to manumission, which is why it took seven years.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 74,518

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
    34% approve of Boris to only 28% who approve of Starmer, though Starmer has a higher net score than Boris, -11% to -15%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424083672156844038?s=20

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424084175519354886?s=20
    I suppose all of the Don't Knows can be assumed to actually love Bozo and despise Keir.
    They're a funny bunch, the Don't Knows - they always seem to line up perfectly with what I want, and if they don't they can be discarded.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 16,575
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    All of which makes me think that you reject the core teachings of Christ. It’s the politics that attract you.
    All Christians by definition accept the teachings of Christ, even Muslims see Christ as a prophet, if I didn't I would be Jewish or atheist.

    However the Catholics and high church Anglicans tend to emphasise the importance of weekly holy communion with liturgy and that Christ is present in the Eucharist and believe bishops hold the fullness of the sacrimant of holy orders and are responsible for teaching doctrine and leadership. Plus Catholics believe the Pope is the direct successor of St Peter.

    Evangelicals however tend to be less keen on bishops and also tend to place less emphasis on holy communion, often not even having weekly Eucharist, instead being more bible based focusing on sermons and worship songs. Evangelicals only believe in Christ's spiritual presence in the Eucharist unlike Catholics and Anglo Catholic Anglicans who believe in Christ's corporeal presence in the Eucharist.

    So there is a doctrinal difference too
    Fifty shades of bollocks.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    Cookie said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Surely easier just to get rid of the bishops from the HoL rather than include all the other cheerleaders for the various religions? Also gives us the opportunity to berate those who would oppose this for their antidisestablishmentarianism - which is an opportunity one should never pass up.
    As long as there is an unelected House of Lords we must have some bishops in it.

    I am a proud supporter of antidisestablishmentarianism
    You are a proud supporter of pseodoantidisestablishmentarianism, and much other nonsense.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638

    HYUFD said:

    isam said:

    HYUFD said:
    In the leader ratings, both Boris and Sir Keir record their lowest ever net score
    34% approve of Boris to only 28% who approve of Starmer, though Starmer has a higher net score than Boris, -11% to -15%

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424083672156844038?s=20

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1424084175519354886?s=20
    I suppose all of the Don't Knows can be assumed to actually love Bozo and despise Keir.
    No, I think it is more that the dont know's are less likely to vote. I prefer to divide the positives by 70 (30% of people dont vote). On that basis Boris scores 48.6 and Sir Keir 40
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 16,051
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    There was nothing wrong with having a brief moment of celebration at the defeat of an opponent.
    It was really demeaning, looked like an Ingerland supporter on 12 pints of lager and a gram of inferior coke doing a GET IN THERE MY SON.
    That may well be so, but if someone is going to celebrate in a manner some see as uncouth that's up to them. I don't think you'd want to overdo it, but I don't see what's worth getting worked up about either. More genuine that phoney words about respecting each other and the like.
    No, but mony a mickle maks a muckle. As with Johnson's Thatcher and miners joke, it may not change your VI all by itself but it's another item in one column rather than the other.
  • HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    So, a potential solution to the housing crisis, while also boosting the Italian economy.

    Smart.
    Few of them would actually move to Rome, just would lead to more Catholic churches being built in England as most of their congregation would move with them
    Is that an option under the planned planning reforms? ;)

    [More seriously, I suspect that our papist friends would have much more sense than that. Much more economical to run more services in the existing churches or pack the congregations a bit tighter. And when the Ordinariate happened a few years back, the numbers crossing over were pretty small- about 2000 in total?]
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467
    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    kle4 said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Carnyx said:

    Alistair said:

    malcolmg said:

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    The vote swing in the Scottish byelection in Livingston was interesting.

    Not the vote swing from 2017 but from 2012:

    SCON +18.2%
    SLAB -21.8%

    That's not tactical voting as its a traditional SLAB area and even in 2017 SLAB were ahead of SCON.

    Now we know that SLAB have problems but I'll suggest that Scots found the Cameron-Osborne gang detestable in a way they no longer do.

    mental assumption
    The facts are the facts Malcy.

    And SCON are doing much better in areas where they shouldn't even be the main unionist option.
    Gosh, if only there was some kind of event or events that occurred between 2012 and 2017?

    SIndy and Brexit realigned Scottish voting coalitions quite dramatically.
    To the benefit of SCON.

    Something PB's SCON haters didn't predict.
    Yes some of the narrative on Scotland has been oversimplified. This ward was a real bellwether ward and while East Calder is a traditional working class Labour area the rest of the ward is more lower middle class/middle class. It's the sort of area which should support a ~20% Tory vote easily and of course West Lothian was only 58% remain. It is a dire result for Labour result and what I expect for the Tories and largely what I would expect for the SNP as they are strong in the eastern suburbs of Livingston with the Greens doing surprisingly well.

    Thanks Gary. Great with some local knowledge.

    “Dire result for Labour” suits me. They are the last remaining bulwark shoring up the crippled Union.
    The union is doing fine, it is support for independence that is falling


    Britain Elects
    @BritainElects
    ·
    10m
    Scottish independence voting intention:

    Yes: 44%
    No: 47%

    --

    Excl. undecideds:
    Yes: 48%
    No: 52%

    via
    @RedfieldWilton
    , 04 - 05 Aug
    But that is actually going up ...
    Long way from being safe to call indyref2
    Safe to call indyref2 being No polling high enough for the Bottler not to crap himself at the prospect of losing?
    I think Sturgeon will be crapping it thinking she may win it.

    Perhaps then can we all move on, as we all confront the reality of the situation,
    Known Nicola our entire adult lives. She will be outstanding in victory: magnanimous, uniting and strategic. Bygones will be bygones.
    Like that little victory dance when she took out the LD woman? A real 'Where there is discord, may we bring harmony" statesperson.
    There was nothing wrong with having a brief moment of celebration at the defeat of an opponent.
    It was really demeaning, looked like an Ingerland supporter on 12 pints of lager and a gram of inferior coke doing a GET IN THERE MY SON.
    That may well be so, but if someone is going to celebrate in a manner some see as uncouth that's up to them. I don't think you'd want to overdo it, but I don't see what's worth getting worked up about either. More genuine that phoney words about respecting each other and the like.
    I am a Lib Dem and don't resent Sturgeons celebration. All fair on election night.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    So, a potential solution to the housing crisis, while also boosting the Italian economy.

    Smart.
    Few of them would actually move to Rome, just would lead to more Catholic churches being built in England as most of their congregation would move with them
    I do hope the DUP are reading this.
  • OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Tbf HYUFD was convinced that CoS had bishops up till a couple of years ago. His grasp of the issue is on a par with his grasp of Scottish geography and ferry routes.
    I often wonder why central office let such a doofus loose on the sensitive topic of Jockland. You’d almost think they want rid of us.
  • OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.

    Commonwealth Games in Brum next year!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467

    OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.

    I wonder if our plastic patriot PB Wokefinder Generals who were rubbishing Team GB two short weeks ago have changed their minds yet,?
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 8,313
    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Is that just hunch, or do you have something solid to base that on?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 31,467

    OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.

    Commonwealth Games in Brum next year!
    Still possible to volunteer:

    https://www.birmingham2022.com/get-involved/volunteering/
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 6,412
    edited August 2021
    On Christian decision-making, there's a certain amount to be said for the groups at both edges ; the most decentralised, and in a certain way radically democratic Protestants, like the Quakers, on the one hand, and the traditionally quite educated Patriarch of all the Orthodox Church in Constantinople on the other, who at the moment is the kind of enlightened dictator Plato would have loved - the civilised Greek environmentalist Patriarch Bartholomew.

    Pope Francis may be just as civilised, but he's stuck in all sorts of moral and bureaucratic complexities and compromises compared, as is a lot of the Anglican church.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 1,451

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    So, a potential solution to the housing crisis, while also boosting the Italian economy.

    Smart.
    Few of them would actually move to Rome, just would lead to more Catholic churches being built in England as most of their congregation would move with them
    I do hope the DUP are reading this.
    As an atheist it seems to me the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism is summed up by the contrast between Bach's St Matthew Passion and All Things Bright And Beautiful.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 21,195
    Where is Gove?

    And his SPAD?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Tbf HYUFD was convinced that CoS had bishops up till a couple of years ago. His grasp of the issue is on a par with his grasp of Scottish geography and ferry routes.
    Oh really? Like the Straits of Hormuz and Brussels sprouts exports? I would never have guessed that anyone who knew as much as he does about the C of E could be so ignorant about the non-Catholic denominations,
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited August 2021

    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Is that just hunch, or do you have something solid to base that on?
    Just a hunch. UK voting Leave whilst Scotland voted Remain, and Scotland having to leave anyway would sway a lot of votes from Unionist to Nationalist I think. What clearer illustration could there be that Scotland doesn’t get listened to?

    If the Union still won after that then the games up though, I wouldn’t bother trying a third time.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Where is Gove?

    And his SPAD?

    Hold on, is this a coded reference to Gove leaving Vine recently, or to the leaker, or both?
  • CandyCandy Posts: 51
    IshmaelZ said:



    Let's not forget that France abolished slavery (not just the trade), outright and everywhere, in 1794, and good for them. Sadly NB unabolished it eight years later, but still. I do get impatient with people who think that Great Britain won the war on slavery just as it won WW2.

    In 1772, the House of Lords ruled that slavery was unsupported by English Common Law in the Somerset v Stewart case, and that the runaway slave (Somerset) who had stowed away on a ship from America to England, should be freed on the grounds that as soon as he set foot on English soil, he became emancipated.

    Some historians believe that it was this judgement that inspired Thomas Jefferson, slave owner, to write the Declaration on Independence in 1776.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,638
    edited August 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    Where is Gove?

    And his SPAD?

    “Can you hear that Rover?”
    “Crystal, Duke”
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 21,152
    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT Carnyx
    'A Presbyterian would wonder why they need bishops at all, never mind something so centralising as archbishops and a London-based mortal as the head of the C of E (though I do understand that the Cantuar:/Ebor: division deviates from neat centralisation).'

    The Church of England is a Protestant church but also a Catholic and Apolostic church which believes in and practices the liturgy while having some evangelicals within it. Much like the Scottish Episcopal Church.

    The Presbyterian church by contrast is more of an evangelical church.

    If the C of E ceased to have bishops it would become a largely evangelical church and cease to be a Catholic and Apostolic Church, leading Anglo Catholics within it in particular to move to Rome

    You have not answered the basic issue - of your disgraceful and deliberate exclusion of all non-Catholic Christians from representation in the HoL through their churches.
    Far from it. Less than 5% of Lords are Bishops, I said you could add some Catholic Bishops (if the Vatican agreed) and Imams and Rabbis too.

    I would not have a problem adding a few prominent evangelicals, Baptists, Pentecostals and Presbyterians and Methodists too but as they tend to have fewer Bishops and in the case of Presbyterians none at all rather more difficult to choose them unless you randomly pick some ministers and elders
    HAve you not even heard of Moderators in the Presbyterian Churches, and the equivalents in the other free churches? They are elected, unlike the bishops and archbishops. But maybe that is too democratic for the HoL in your view.
    Members of the House of Laity of the Church of England Synod are elected, only the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland is elected.

    But the successive conveners and moderators of the kirk sessions and presbyteries and synods are elected, as any fule kno.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 6,210

    OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.

    Japan put on a good show and the Olympics, like the Euros, provided interest and entertainment in this dismal year.
    isam said:

    isam said:

    If there were another Indy Ref, I think Leave would win. Brexit changed everything I reckon

    Is that just hunch, or do you have something solid to base that on?
    Just a hunch. UK voting Leave whilst Scotland voted Remain, and Scotland having to leave anyway would sway a lot of votes from Unionist to Nationalist I think. What clearer illustration could there be that Scotland doesn’t get listened to?

    If the Union still won after that then the games up though, I wouldn’t bother trying a third time.
    You might not bother but they know they only need to win once.

  • Foxy said:

    OT last day of the Olympics tomorrow. More British medal chances in cycling and Lauren Price is favourite to win her boxing gold.

    The Paralympics is at the end of August into September, and (as I'd forgotten) next year's Winter Olympics is in Beijing – less than six months away! Then to Paris 2024.

    Commonwealth Games in Brum next year!
    Still possible to volunteer:

    https://www.birmingham2022.com/get-involved/volunteering/
    Go for it, though if it is anything like the London Olympics, mightily bored you will be. Lots of standing about because most people can follow the signs by themselves.
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