BoJo’s “vaccine bounce” seems to be over but Starmer remains in negative territory – politicalbettin
Comments
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But if that's the case then we need to learn to live with it, not in fear of it. I think there needs to be an acceptance that COVID is going to cut life expectancy for a few years until we find effective treatments or vaccines that are 100% effective. There's really no way to avoid it.FrancisUrquhart said:
It was clear from Witty and Javid statements, they fully expect COVID to be around for a long time to come.Scott_xP said:Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1
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Yet another populist-right Italian outfit destined to last a few years at most, I think.HYUFD said:Meanwhile as we all bemoan the racist England fans and the UK government and the 'racist' first Asian Home Secretary, the far right Brothers of Italy takes the lead in a new Italian poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1414655140351692803?s=200 -
Models for modern Britain, on and off the pitch.Brom said:
Maguire - fighting with Greek policePulpstar said:
Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.FrancisUrquhart said:
This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.Taz said:
This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.Cookie said:
In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.tlg86 said:
Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.tlg86 said:
Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes, probably.tlg86 said:
I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?ydoethur said:
But would it be a net revenue raiser?tlg86 said:
I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.Carnyx said:
That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.tlg86 said:
Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.Carnyx said:
But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.
If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.
To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.
Killing the Golden Goose.
The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.
Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
Walker and Foden - love a prezzie
That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.0 -
What was he expecting-a showing of Reifenstahl's Triumph of the Will?londonpubman said:I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.
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Mark Harper
@Mark_J_Harper
·
4h
Currently, Covid hospitalisation data is hugely flawed - not showing distinction between patients ill with Covid & those in hospital for other reasons.
Dodgy data cannot drive us into lockdown again.
@sajidjavid clearly agrees.
Govt must sort this out before it’s too late.
Utterly astonishing we are still in this position over data when we are 18 months into this now.0 -
London got hit first, and hard. The nation emerging from the first lockdown was timed on cases receding in London. Cases where still "high" in the North who had got the first wave later.another_richard said:
The regional variations throughout the pandemic have been curious.Barnesian said:
According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.Alistair said:
Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.Barnesian said:
You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..Alistair said:I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.
London was barely touched last autumn and this summer but hammered during the winter.
So the summer unlocking took much longer to take effect in London than it did the North.
Which meant the North got put in local restrictions earlier than the rest of the country which meant when Kent Coivd really took hold it ripped through packed "open" London whist the North got off much easier, Yorkshire even had a lower Jan peak than October.0 -
That's exactly the argument I was making last April.MaxPB said:
But if that's the case then we need to learn to live with it, not in fear of it. I think there needs to be an acceptance that COVID is going to cut life expectancy for a few years until we find effective treatments or vaccines that are 100% effective. There's really no way to avoid it.FrancisUrquhart said:
It was clear from Witty and Javid statements, they fully expect COVID to be around for a long time to come.Scott_xP said:Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1
0 -
Euro 2020: Police forces deal with record number of football-related incidents after Wembley final http://news.sky.com/story/euro-2020-police-forces-deal-with-record-number-of-football-related-incidents-after-wembley-final-123545660
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You just have to hope they have access to that behind the scenes, along with data like days since vaccination.rottenborough said:Mark Harper
@Mark_J_Harper
·
4h
Currently, Covid hospitalisation data is hugely flawed - not showing distinction between patients ill with Covid & those in hospital for other reasons.
Dodgy data cannot drive us into lockdown again.
@sajidjavid clearly agrees.
Govt must sort this out before it’s too late.
Utterly astonishing we are still in this position over data when we are 18 months into this now.0 -
And they seem to know that too.MaxPB said:
But if that's the case then we need to learn to live with it, not in fear of it. I think there needs to be an acceptance that COVID is going to cut life expectancy for a few years until we find effective treatments or vaccines that are 100% effective. There's really no way to avoid it.FrancisUrquhart said:
It was clear from Witty and Javid statements, they fully expect COVID to be around for a long time to come.Scott_xP said:Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1
Hence why its better for us to learn to live with it this summer than wait until April 2022.0 -
Is anyone at all talking about lockdown again? Arguably we've never had it.rottenborough said:Mark Harper
@Mark_J_Harper
·
4h
Currently, Covid hospitalisation data is hugely flawed - not showing distinction between patients ill with Covid & those in hospital for other reasons.
Dodgy data cannot drive us into lockdown again.
@sajidjavid clearly agrees.
Govt must sort this out before it’s too late.
Utterly astonishing we are still in this position over data when we are 18 months into this now.
Hyperbole really doesn't help his argument.0 -
And I would say London did have a fairly bad Autumn it was just delayed later (peak in November rather than October) which smears it into the December rise and the January apocalypse just drowns it our entirely.0
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Do you have a link to Grealish use of prostitutes allegation?Brom said:
Maguire - fighting with Greek policePulpstar said:
Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.FrancisUrquhart said:
This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.Taz said:
This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.Cookie said:
In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.tlg86 said:
Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.tlg86 said:
Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes, probably.tlg86 said:
I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?ydoethur said:
But would it be a net revenue raiser?tlg86 said:
I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.Carnyx said:
That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.tlg86 said:
Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.Carnyx said:
But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.
If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.
To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.
Killing the Golden Goose.
The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.
Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
Walker and Foden - love a prezzie
That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.0 -
If you covid test everyone admitted to hospital, when there’s a decent percentage of vaccinated people who might still catch covid asymptomatically or mildly, it stands to reason you’ll see an increase in covid positive rates in hospital during a wider outbreak. Given we first double vaccinated the people most likely to need hospital in general, then it also stands to reason that during a wider outbreak you’ll get quite a few covid positive tests of doubled vaxxed in hospital. Even if they’re there for a bladder infection or a fall.rottenborough said:Mark Harper
@Mark_J_Harper
·
4h
Currently, Covid hospitalisation data is hugely flawed - not showing distinction between patients ill with Covid & those in hospital for other reasons.
Dodgy data cannot drive us into lockdown again.
@sajidjavid clearly agrees.
Govt must sort this out before it’s too late.
Utterly astonishing we are still in this position over data when we are 18 months into this now.
We can only guess at the scale of this effect because the dunderheads in charge still haven’t bothered trying to measure it. Maybe it matters and maybe it doesn’t. Tell us.1 -
Robert Dingwall 🏴 🇪🇺 Reunite
@rwjdingwall
·
4h
Covid passports - the zombie policy that refuses to die no matter how many stakes get put through its heart. If you are fully vaccinated, knowing another person's vaccination status is irrelevant. If they decline protection, that is their problem not yours. RIP medical privacy
I reckon he reads PB, as I posted a comment about these passports being "zombies" a couple of days ago.0 -
There is a very NSFW photographic evidence...that did the rounds.TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to Grealish use of prostitutes allegation?Brom said:
Maguire - fighting with Greek policePulpstar said:
Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.FrancisUrquhart said:
This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.Taz said:
This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.Cookie said:
In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.tlg86 said:
Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.tlg86 said:
Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes, probably.tlg86 said:
I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?ydoethur said:
But would it be a net revenue raiser?tlg86 said:
I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.Carnyx said:
That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.tlg86 said:
Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.Carnyx said:
But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.
If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.
To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.
Killing the Golden Goose.
The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.
Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
Walker and Foden - love a prezzie
That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.0 -
The facts still defy belief on a cold reading.
The national football team chose to display an anti-racism message, informed in part by their own direct experiences.
Racists booed them.
The Prime Minister & Home Secretary publicly criticised the players and backed the racists.
https://twitter.com/BarristerSecret/status/1414673904220753924
The UK government, having taken on one footballer and lost massively, then decided to take on the twenty six man England squad.
I have to be honest, I'm struggling with the logic.
https://twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/14146734524061245440 -
Oh, haven't had a good "Casedemic" post for almost a year now.
Do "it's all false positives", I love the classics.4 -
It can become your problem in other ways. We're seeing that with waiting lists.rottenborough said:Robert Dingwall 🏴 🇪🇺 Reunite
@rwjdingwall
·
4h
Covid passports - the zombie policy that refuses to die no matter how many stakes get put through its heart. If you are fully vaccinated, knowing another person's vaccination status is irrelevant. If they decline protection, that is their problem not yours. RIP medical privacy
I reckon he reads PB, as I posted a comment about these passports being "zombies" a couple of days ago.0 -
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.2 -
My road this afternoon. The storm was biblical!
0 -
Are you two seriously saying the Leon chain is new to you?Philip_Thompson said:
Its also the name of a coffee shop chain, there's one in the Trafford Centre. https://leon.co/squareroot2 said:I stopped at the M 6 Toll services and saw a fresh fruit? Shop called Leon.. We know where our identically named poster got the idea from...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Restaurants0 -
That was a while ago. At this rate he'll be PM by the week-endbigjohnowls said:
+150lk likes in an hourCocky_cockney said:https://twitter.com/OfficialTM_3/status/1414655312074784785?s=20
Well said Tyrone Mings
+10 -
It's obvious what black footballers suffering from vile racial abuse should do. They should stop complaining. Every time they moan about it, it adds fuel to the fire and makes things worse. By drawing attention to the racists, they are provoking them to be racist. Any they are definitely making it worse if they are complaining about a non-white Home Secretary. So they should shut up.
So, keep politics out of sport. Stop complaining about racism and it will go away.
Have I got this right? Some absolutely unbelievable views around.1 -
I miss the Sweden stuff and breathless retweeting of Alistair Hames and his trend lines.Alistair said:Oh, haven't had a good "Casedemic" post for almost a year now.
Do "it's all false positives", I love the classics.0 -
I see the Fratelli d'Italia are members of the ECR group in the European Parliament - isn't that the group to which the Conservative Party belonged?HYUFD said:Meanwhile as we all bemoan the racist England fans and the UK government and the 'racist' first Asian Home Secretary, the far right Brothers of Italy takes the lead in a new Italian poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1414655140351692803?s=20
It's also worth noting FdL, Lega and the Social Democrats are statistically tied at 20% across the polls so it's not a big political event by any stretch but make a cheap point if it'll help you dig your way out of your self-inflicted pit.0 -
It reminds me of some of the bullshit coming out the MCC and their defenders during the D'Oliveira saga.Northern_Al said:It's obvious what black footballers suffering from vile racial abuse should do. They should stop complaining. Every time they moan about it, it adds fuel to the fire and makes things worse. By drawing attention to the racists, they are provoking them to be racist. Any they are definitely making it worse if they are complaining about a non-white Home Secretary. So they should shut up.
So, keep politics out of sport. Stop complaining about racism and it will go away.
Have I got this right? Some absolutely unbelievable views around.2 -
Thin* is, this time round it is much more a casedemic as the link to hospital and death is much much weaker. It’s also true that almost all Covid deaths in recent months have been in the over 60s (At least from England only data). It’s not too much to ask for reliable, sensible data when such significant constraints have been imposed on people for 16 months.Alistair said:Oh, haven't had a good "Casedemic" post for almost a year now.
Do "it's all false positives", I love the classics.0 -
Well I’ve been sent the photo on a number of WhatsApp groups, I’m pretty sure it broke the internet when it was first circulated so I don’t think you’d have much trouble if you google it!TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to Grealish use of prostitutes allegation?Brom said:
Maguire - fighting with Greek policePulpstar said:
Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.FrancisUrquhart said:
This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.Taz said:
This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.Cookie said:
In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.tlg86 said:
Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.tlg86 said:
Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes, probably.tlg86 said:
I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?ydoethur said:
But would it be a net revenue raiser?tlg86 said:
I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.Carnyx said:
That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.tlg86 said:
Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.Carnyx said:
But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.
If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.
To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.
Killing the Golden Goose.
The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.
Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
Walker and Foden - love a prezzie
That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.0 -
Alistair said:
London got hit first, and hard. The nation emerging from the first lockdown was timed on cases receding in London. Cases where still "high" in the North who had got the first wave later.another_richard said:
The regional variations throughout the pandemic have been curious.Barnesian said:
According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.Alistair said:
Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.Barnesian said:
You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..Alistair said:I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.
London was barely touched last autumn and this summer but hammered during the winter.
So the summer unlocking took much longer to take effect in London than it did the North.
Which meant the North got put in local restrictions earlier than the rest of the country which meant when Kent Coivd really took hold it ripped through packed "open" London whist the North got off much easier, Yorkshire even had a lower Jan peak than October.
Percentage change of the 7 day average of cases, day by day
Regional
Obviously the last 3-5 days are to be discarded.
Interesting.....0 -
Yes, quite so. It was fairly easy to sort the goodies from the baddies during the D'Oliveira saga, just as it is now.TheScreamingEagles said:
It reminds me of some of the bullshit coming out the MCC and their defenders during the D'Oliveira saga.Northern_Al said:It's obvious what black footballers suffering from vile racial abuse should do. They should stop complaining. Every time they moan about it, it adds fuel to the fire and makes things worse. By drawing attention to the racists, they are provoking them to be racist. Any they are definitely making it worse if they are complaining about a non-white Home Secretary. So they should shut up.
So, keep politics out of sport. Stop complaining about racism and it will go away.
Have I got this right? Some absolutely unbelievable views around.1 -
Those shielding had lockdown.dixiedean said:
Is anyone at all talking about lockdown again? Arguably we've never had it.rottenborough said:Mark Harper
@Mark_J_Harper
·
4h
Currently, Covid hospitalisation data is hugely flawed - not showing distinction between patients ill with Covid & those in hospital for other reasons.
Dodgy data cannot drive us into lockdown again.
@sajidjavid clearly agrees.
Govt must sort this out before it’s too late.
Utterly astonishing we are still in this position over data when we are 18 months into this now.
Hyperbole really doesn't help his argument.
Everyone else was having a stroll in the park.
I mean that literally, not figuratively.0 -
Simply not true. You can be fully vaccinated and get covid. You are much less likely to do so from someone fully vaccinated then from someone not.rottenborough said:Robert Dingwall 🏴 🇪🇺 Reunite
@rwjdingwall
·
4h
Covid passports - the zombie policy that refuses to die no matter how many stakes get put through its heart. If you are fully vaccinated, knowing another person's vaccination status is irrelevant. If they decline protection, that is their problem not yours. RIP medical privacy
I reckon he reads PB, as I posted a comment about these passports being "zombies" a couple of days ago.0 -
But we will be in a Mask environment until 2023. I'm staying in. Except when I am out.Philip_Thompson said:
And they seem to know that too.MaxPB said:
But if that's the case then we need to learn to live with it, not in fear of it. I think there needs to be an acceptance that COVID is going to cut life expectancy for a few years until we find effective treatments or vaccines that are 100% effective. There's really no way to avoid it.FrancisUrquhart said:
It was clear from Witty and Javid statements, they fully expect COVID to be around for a long time to come.Scott_xP said:Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1
Hence why its better for us to learn to live with it this summer than wait until April 2022.0 -
According to Iain M. Banks, rather a lot of them do. I have a soft spot for the Dwellers who like sailing in the shearwinds of their gas giant planet.kle4 said:
I don't want to know any aliens who don't enjoy sport, and lament the idiots that come along with it.moonshine said:
Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.Floater said:So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night
Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed
1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.
So, he does it again.
A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.
Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.
When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.
2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.
What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?
I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.0 -
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.0 -
It’s not too relevant how many real cases we are seeing in the unvaccinated (mainly young). And it’s not really relevant how many real cases there are in vaccinated. What we truly care about is how many very serious cases there are in the vaccinated. And to those with less cold hearts than mine, how many very serious cases there are in the unvaccinated.Alistair said:Oh, haven't had a good "Casedemic" post for almost a year now.
Do "it's all false positives", I love the classics.
Your glib reply is typical of the unthinking approach so prevalent on here at times.0 -
Not new to me, its been in Trafford for years. Only ever seen it there.Benpointer said:
Are you two seriously saying the Leon chain is new to you?Philip_Thompson said:
Its also the name of a coffee shop chain, there's one in the Trafford Centre. https://leon.co/squareroot2 said:I stopped at the M 6 Toll services and saw a fresh fruit? Shop called Leon.. We know where our identically named poster got the idea from...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Restaurants
I only mentioned it as squareroot2 mentioned it.0 -
The Dwellers also hunt their own young, apparently.Carnyx said:
According to Iain M. Banks, rather a lot of them do. I have a soft spot for the Dwellers who like sailing in the shearwinds of their gas giant planet.kle4 said:
I don't want to know any aliens who don't enjoy sport, and lament the idiots that come along with it.moonshine said:
Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.Floater said:So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night
Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed
1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.
So, he does it again.
A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.
Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.
When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.
2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.
What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?
I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.0 -
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.0 -
Sweden is fucking amazing!TheScreamingEagles said:
I miss the Sweden stuff and breathless retweeting of Alistair Hames and his trend lines.Alistair said:Oh, haven't had a good "Casedemic" post for almost a year now.
Do "it's all false positives", I love the classics.
If I was a proponent of a lockdowns don't do anything/it's just the flu/vaccines are a sham I would totally be using Sweden as my example given their dramatic lack of deaths in their third wave but they seem to have been totally forgotten about.
People stopped dying en-masse of Covid in Sweden in the middle do February and almost entirely at all in mid May despite a huge peak of cases And ICU admission in April.
And yet Covid sceptics have stopped talking about Sweden, it is bizarre.
Now is totally the time to be talking about Sweden,0 -
So erudite.tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
Why are there no out gay players?0 -
FdL and Lega combined are on 41% in the poll to just 19% for the Social Democrats and 14% for Five Star.stodge said:
I see the Fratelli d'Italia are members of the ECR group in the European Parliament - isn't that the group to which the Conservative Party belonged?HYUFD said:Meanwhile as we all bemoan the racist England fans and the UK government and the 'racist' first Asian Home Secretary, the far right Brothers of Italy takes the lead in a new Italian poll
https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1414655140351692803?s=20
It's also worth noting FdL, Lega and the Social Democrats are statistically tied at 20% across the polls so it's not a big political event by any stretch but make a cheap point if it'll help you dig your way out of your self-inflicted pit.
The Tories sister party in the IDU is Forza Italia who are on 7%0 -
Grealish is probably the worst behaved england player and also the most popular with the fans....Brom said:
Well I’ve been sent the photo on a number of WhatsApp groups, I’m pretty sure it broke the internet when it was first circulated so I don’t think you’d have much trouble if you google it!TheScreamingEagles said:
Do you have a link to Grealish use of prostitutes allegation?Brom said:
Maguire - fighting with Greek policePulpstar said:
Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.FrancisUrquhart said:
This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.Taz said:
This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.Cookie said:
In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.tlg86 said:
Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.Philip_Thompson said:
Yes.tlg86 said:
Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?Philip_Thompson said:
Yes, probably.tlg86 said:
I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?ydoethur said:
But would it be a net revenue raiser?tlg86 said:
I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.Carnyx said:
That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.tlg86 said:
Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.Carnyx said:
But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.
If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.
To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.
Killing the Golden Goose.
The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.
Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
Walker and Foden - love a prezzie
That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.0 -
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.0 -
Birth of a Nation perhaps; footie fans don't approve of the Hun (so-called: not my expression).Roger said:
What was he expecting-a showing of Reifenstahl's Triumph of the Will?londonpubman said:I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.
BTW what is all this about a dentist's chair (mentioned earlier)? Escapes me ...0 -
Golf and tennis spectators have some pretty outdated views, rugger buggers aren’t exactly know for their tolerance. Perhaps there’s a snobbery towards football but it attracts 10 times the audience of the other sports and probably 10 times as many dickheads. Perhaps the media exaggerate the size of the issues but I can only say what I see and hear week in week out.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
For me the issue is the abuse people give on social media where they have a free platform is almost always the type of shit they would never say out loud in a football ground.0 -
This is actually a very interesting argument. There's a book called "The Righteous Mind" that deals with left vs right arguments and their implications. I haven't read it but I've read a summary and it's well worth looking into.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
It is totally lacking in introspection to say that straw man arguments are in any way unique to one wing of politics.tlg86 said:
What I object to on the FSM issue specifically is the "you're happy for children to go hungry?!!!" angle. It's a c***ish line of argument, which is why I generally think the left are twats.SirNorfolkPassmore said:
I really don't think you have to do that in order to express a view.tlg86 said:
Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).Cicero said:
Genuinely, why not?Andy_JS said:
Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?Foxy said:Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.
It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.
People can just say "X is an important priority and the money should be found either from lower spending elsewhere or general taxation".
It might help their argument it they did, and it would also legitimate for someone else to respond to that by saying "I don't think X is a particularly priority, and I just don't think it's worth spending £Y on it".
But I don't think it's fair to require someone to have the sort of knowledge of the national accounts that would enable them to come up with a fully costed proposal as some kind of entry-level requirement to join the debate.
If someone opposes a war, they immediately get accused of treachery and appeasement. Argue for the Navy and RNLI to rescue migrants at sea, and certain people allege you want an open door policy.
None of it is attractive, but the straw man is a feature of political discourse across the board, and always has been. It's one-eyed to claim othewise.
Basically, liberals focus on a much narrower set of moral foudations (eg. fairness) than conservatives. So liberals say conservatives are evil "because how can you allow this terrible injustice, it must be fixed above all else" and conservatives say liberals are stupid because "how can you damage all that other stuff by focusing overly on this one injustice".
Interestingly, libertarians focus on the most narrow set of moral foundations of all, basically "freedom above all else".
The above thread very much reminded me of this!0 -
Well I'd disagree about the latter, every Royal Ascot I've been to there were plenty of fights.IshmaelZ said:
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.0 -
To be fair, I went to the last England vs Italy game at Wembley, it was a perfectly pleasant environment.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.0 -
Hard to argue with his logic.Scott_xP said:NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248
You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785
I have a feeling culture war isn't the slamdunk the government thinks it is. Ty Mings and his mates may be naive at worst, but in disrespecting them, Patel, Johnson etc come across as unpleasant at best and at worst slightly sinister and in disreputable company.0 -
Yes because other sports are just full of gay players! All those gay tennis players, cricketers and rugby players!pigeon said:
So erudite.tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
Why are there no out gay players?
0 -
Too much hassle. And I’d say the teammates are more of a worry than the fans:pigeon said:
So erudite.tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
Why are there no out gay players?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/football/2012/jun/12/euro-2012-antonio-cassano-gays0 -
Ooh yes, so they do. As well as basing their entire planetary defence on the local amateur militia. But it's sport. More important than life or death.Malmesbury said:
The Dwellers also hunt their own young, apparently.Carnyx said:
According to Iain M. Banks, rather a lot of them do. I have a soft spot for the Dwellers who like sailing in the shearwinds of their gas giant planet.kle4 said:
I don't want to know any aliens who don't enjoy sport, and lament the idiots that come along with it.moonshine said:
Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.Floater said:So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night
Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed
1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.
So, he does it again.
A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.
Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.
When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.
2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.
What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?
I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.0 -
Really? I don't really do flat racing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I'd disagree about the latter, every Royal Ascot I've been to there were plenty of fights.IshmaelZ said:
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.0 -
What a depressing evening. A summer night of cold torrential rain. We have blown our best ever chance of winning a major football tournament, thanks to a silly manager. We are represented abroad by a man with a firework up his arse, AKA Boris Johnson.
0 -
Certain days at certain high profile racing festivals are infamous now for the punch ups. Thr Daily Mail love sending their paps to them for all the shots of dressed up men and women having punch up.
Again drink, coke and young men....and now with equality plenty of women.1 -
Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.0 -
A sizeable number of Liverpool fans and manager Kenny Dalgleish were backing Suarez and his racist statements towards Evra only a few years back, so I doubt these people have all changed their views in that time period, but that was a more subtle racism than the awful shit you hear about on social media.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.
Most England matches at Wembley are fine and the England member fans with the highest home and away points are almost all great but nights like last night when coked up tournament only England supporting idiots burst through security then I’d have to agree - no chance you’d take kids there if you knew that would happen.
0 -
Avoid coke. Stick to fanta.FrancisUrquhart said:Certain days at certain high profile racing festivals are infamous now for the punch ups. Again drink, coke and young men....
1 -
Nice weather is just around the corner, England failed better than last time and Boris won't be around forever.Leon said:What a depressing evening. A summer night of cold torrential rain. We have blown our best ever chance of winning a major football tournament, thanks to a silly manager. We are represented abroad by a man with a firework up his arse, AKA Boris Johnson.
One wouldn't wish to give the impression from one's opening remarks that one thought everything was awful, because it isn't really.0 -
It came home. Leicester Square gets a taste of the delights visited on Marseille, Lille, Lisbon, Stuttgart etc etc etc over the years https://twitter.com/Urban_Pictures/status/1414241047883001856tlg86 said:Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
0 -
The days get shorter. Winter is comingLeon said:What a depressing evening. A summer night of cold torrential rain. We have blown our best ever chance of winning a major football tournament, thanks to a silly manager. We are represented abroad by a man with a firework up his arse, AKA Boris Johnson.
0 -
The drink of the Nazis...Philip_Thompson said:
Avoid coke. Stick to fanta.FrancisUrquhart said:Certain days at certain high profile racing festivals are infamous now for the punch ups. Again drink, coke and young men....
0 -
Yup.IshmaelZ said:
Really? I don't really do flat racing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I'd disagree about the latter, every Royal Ascot I've been to there were plenty of fights.IshmaelZ said:
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
It is something @Topping and I here have discussed.
There's probably less alcohol drunk there than during a day at a test match, but there's an edge.
2019
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mass-brawl-breaks-out-ascot-17129133
2018
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/13/ascot-fighting-royal-meeting-hazapour-dermot-weld
2017
vhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/820425/royal-ascot-fight-ladies-day-video-queen-gold-cup-big-orange-results-tips
2021
https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/horse-racing/royals-avoid-ugly-brawl-at-ascot-race-meeting-as-patrons-use-table-legs-and-champagne-bottles-as-weapons/news-story/f3296fff4a3afd8d4bcb7d18876add4b0 -
Sir Keir Starmer has accused Boris Johnson of a failure of leadership after England players were subjected to racist abuse following their Euro 2020 final defeat.
Get more on this story: https://trib.al/0WgT09E https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1414679187571478537/video/10 -
So it is. Cheerful bugger.Scott_xP said:
The days get shorter. Winter is comingLeon said:What a depressing evening. A summer night of cold torrential rain. We have blown our best ever chance of winning a major football tournament, thanks to a silly manager. We are represented abroad by a man with a firework up his arse, AKA Boris Johnson.
0 -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-57538350Scott_xP said:
It came home. Leicester Square gets a taste of the delights visited on Marseille, Lille, Lisbon, Stuttgart etc etc etc over the years https://twitter.com/Urban_Pictures/status/1414241047883001856tlg86 said:Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
0 -
Lega are in the Government along with Five Star, the Social Democrats and Forza Italia. FdL are the opposition (which may explain why they are doing so well).HYUFD said:
FdL and Lega combined are on 41% in the poll to just 19% for the Social Democrats and 14% for Five Star.
The Tories sister party in the IDU is Forza Italia who are on 7%
Adding Lega and FdL's numbers makes no sense - it's the same as adding the Conservative and Labour numbers to make a point.
https://ecrparty.eu/about#family
The Conservative Party is a member of the ECR - the President of the ECR is the leader of Fratelli d'Italia - do you accept that to be true?0 -
I would also say some of the videos of Italian fans celebrating irresponsibly back home, a lot of injuries across various incidents show that England does not have a monopoly on idiots.0
-
How many of those ended up at Wembley. It all looked fairly civilised in the stands (as opposed to outside). Reality is that match going football fans today are fairly middle class. This is something that Hornby talked about Fever Pitch - he could see where it was going.Scott_xP said:
It came home. Leicester Square gets a taste of the delights visited on Marseille, Lille, Lisbon, Stuttgart etc etc etc over the years https://twitter.com/Urban_Pictures/status/1414241047883001856tlg86 said:Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
0 -
Have to admit, going to Spain and to a lesser extent Italy used to be a scary experience.tlg86 said:
Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.
The local rozzers pretty much whacked anyone who looked at them. It has become better as Merseyside Police now go on foreign trips with the fans and liaise with both.0 -
It made things much worse. It was a deliberately antagonistic gesture, which would only have worked, if England won (and then it would have been a triumph)RobD said:Brom said:
The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.bigjohnowls said:
Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be toleratedBrom said:
I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.RobD said:
Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?Scott_xP said:NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248
You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785
It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
That is a good thing
And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
I wouldn't be surprised if it actually made things worse. You don't bring people with you by antagonising them.
They did not win. They lost. Fans are seething with resentment
A guy I know on a Whatsapp group - a Corbynite, no less - just posted a quasi-racist comment about the penalty takers. Depressing0 -
My friend in the stadium last night begged to differ. Said it was hard to judge the numbers inside because vast swathes were standing only. Guesses it was at or above full capacity despite the ticket cap. Drugs openly being consumed in the stands. Violence before. Violence after. Sounded grim.tlg86 said:
How many of those ended up at Wembley. It all looked fairly civilised in the stands (as opposed to outside). Reality is that match going football fans today are fairly middle class. This is something that Hornby talked about Fever Pitch - he could see where it was going.Scott_xP said:
It came home. Leicester Square gets a taste of the delights visited on Marseille, Lille, Lisbon, Stuttgart etc etc etc over the years https://twitter.com/Urban_Pictures/status/1414241047883001856tlg86 said:Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
0 -
Eh?stodge said:
Lega are in the Government along with Five Star, the Social Democrats and Forza Italia. FdL are the opposition (which may explain why they are doing so well).HYUFD said:
FdL and Lega combined are on 41% in the poll to just 19% for the Social Democrats and 14% for Five Star.
The Tories sister party in the IDU is Forza Italia who are on 7%
Adding Lega and FdL's numbers makes no sense - it's the same as adding the Conservative and Labour numbers to make a point.
https://ecrparty.eu/about#family
The Conservative Party is a member of the ECR - the President of the ECR is the leader of Fratelli d'Italia - do you accept that to be true?
The Lega-M5S coalition broke down, and M5S got into bed with the Social Democrats.
1 -
I have been going to Leicester City for 2 decades and can only remember a couple of incidents of abuse. Being called a "City full of Pakis" by away fans, and our fans singing "does your boyfriend know you are here?" at Brighton fans. Other than that, nothing, though plenty of coarse language.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
What violence I have seen has been outside the ground, indeed often well away from it, and of course social media abuse generally comes from armchair fans.
I wouldn't claim that football fans are choristers, but clearly much of the bad behaviour comes from fans who are not at games, and perhaps rarely go.0 -
Are we supposed to be shocked that a corbynite is a closet racist? :-)Leon said:
It made things much worse. It was a deliberately antagonistic gesture, which would only have worked, if England won (and then it would have been a triumph)RobD said:Brom said:
The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.bigjohnowls said:
Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be toleratedBrom said:
I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.RobD said:
Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?Scott_xP said:NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248
You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785
It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
That is a good thing
And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
I wouldn't be surprised if it actually made things worse. You don't bring people with you by antagonising them.
They did not win. They lost. Fans are seething with resentment
A guy I know on a Whatsapp group - a Corbynite, no less - just posted a quasi-racist comment about the penalty takers. Depressing0 -
Not one of their better slogans.FrancisUrquhart said:
The drink of the Nazis...Philip_Thompson said:
Avoid coke. Stick to fanta.FrancisUrquhart said:Certain days at certain high profile racing festivals are infamous now for the punch ups. Again drink, coke and young men....
3 -
I’ve been to several England matches and never heard a single racist word uttered.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.1 -
Natalie Elphicke story and apology now being spoken about by Jon Craig on Sky
Just what on earth these conservative politicians thought they were doing and saying about Marcus
Mind you they seem to have had a common sense by pass1 -
Yes. Sadlymoonshine said:
My friend in the stadium last night begged to differ. Said it was hard to judge the numbers inside because vast swathes were standing only. Guesses it was at or above full capacity despite the ticket cap. Drugs openly being consumed in the stands. Violence before. Violence after. Sounded grim.tlg86 said:
How many of those ended up at Wembley. It all looked fairly civilised in the stands (as opposed to outside). Reality is that match going football fans today are fairly middle class. This is something that Hornby talked about Fever Pitch - he could see where it was going.Scott_xP said:
It came home. Leicester Square gets a taste of the delights visited on Marseille, Lille, Lisbon, Stuttgart etc etc etc over the years https://twitter.com/Urban_Pictures/status/1414241047883001856tlg86 said:Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
I was a little bit insouciant about the hooliganism after Denmark. But it is very clear from multiple reports that Wembley was deeply ugly. We do still have a hardcore of total wankers, who are punchy and violent
As I said: depressing0 -
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.0
-
I was at the Stadium of Light in 2003 when we played Turkey and heard plenty of the 'fans' chant 'I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk.'Anabobazina said:
I’ve been to several England matches and never heard a single racist word uttered.TheScreamingEagles said:
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.0 -
Entitled rich twits? I've never encountered that kind of behaviour at York.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup.IshmaelZ said:
Really? I don't really do flat racing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I'd disagree about the latter, every Royal Ascot I've been to there were plenty of fights.IshmaelZ said:
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
It is something @Topping and I here have discussed.
There's probably less alcohol drunk there than during a day at a test match, but there's an edge.
2019
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mass-brawl-breaks-out-ascot-17129133
2018
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/13/ascot-fighting-royal-meeting-hazapour-dermot-weld
2017
vhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/820425/royal-ascot-fight-ladies-day-video-queen-gold-cup-big-orange-results-tips
2021
https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/horse-racing/royals-avoid-ugly-brawl-at-ascot-race-meeting-as-patrons-use-table-legs-and-champagne-bottles-as-weapons/news-story/f3296fff4a3afd8d4bcb7d18876add4b0 -
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.dixiedean said:England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
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I am genuinely shocked. I have never heard him express anything that could ever be construed as racist. He has working class racist parents (as in the casual, low watt racism of the 1970s, not Nazism), and he has always abjured that. Then suddenly, wowmoonshine said:
Are we supposed to be shocked that a corbynite is a closet racist? :-)Leon said:
It made things much worse. It was a deliberately antagonistic gesture, which would only have worked, if England won (and then it would have been a triumph)RobD said:Brom said:
The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.bigjohnowls said:
Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be toleratedBrom said:
I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.RobD said:
Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?Scott_xP said:NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248
You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785
It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
That is a good thing
And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
I wouldn't be surprised if it actually made things worse. You don't bring people with you by antagonising them.
They did not win. They lost. Fans are seething with resentment
A guy I know on a Whatsapp group - a Corbynite, no less - just posted a quasi-racist comment about the penalty takers. Depressing
He is an absolutely passionate football fan, esp for England. Hmmpft0 -
There was mass disorder in Paris when France won the World Cup. People have short and selective memories.Brom said:I would also say some of the videos of Italian fans celebrating irresponsibly back home, a lot of injuries across various incidents show that England does not have a monopoly on idiots.
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/world/riots-break-out-in-paris-after-world-cup-win/1 -
A 'failure of leadership' is a lot easier to sell than earlier's 'gave licence' to the racist abuse. The latter is a bit too direct to be plausible, the former more generic but more believable.Scott_xP said:Sir Keir Starmer has accused Boris Johnson of a failure of leadership after England players were subjected to racist abuse following their Euro 2020 final defeat.
Get more on this story: https://trib.al/0WgT09E https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1414679187571478537/video/10 -
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.Brom said:
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.dixiedean said:England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.3 -
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing moodmoonshine said:
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.Brom said:
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.dixiedean said:England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.0 -
I've seen thuggish drunken behaviour at various events such as Ascot and Henley. In both cases the perpetrators are neither racegoers or into rowing. Their share a common theme of being there for a day out drinking and playing at poshing it up. Think estate agents and girlfriends.....pigeon said:
Entitled rich twits? I've never encountered that kind of behaviour at York.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup.IshmaelZ said:
Really? I don't really do flat racing.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well I'd disagree about the latter, every Royal Ascot I've been to there were plenty of fights.IshmaelZ said:
OK, so why are rugby and tennis and cricket matches and race meetings different, then?tlg86 said:
Bullshit.pigeon said:
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.Brom said:Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
It is something @Topping and I here have discussed.
There's probably less alcohol drunk there than during a day at a test match, but there's an edge.
2019
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mass-brawl-breaks-out-ascot-17129133
2018
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/may/13/ascot-fighting-royal-meeting-hazapour-dermot-weld
2017
vhttps://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/820425/royal-ascot-fight-ladies-day-video-queen-gold-cup-big-orange-results-tips
2021
https://www.foxsports.com.au/more-sports/horse-racing/royals-avoid-ugly-brawl-at-ascot-race-meeting-as-patrons-use-table-legs-and-champagne-bottles-as-weapons/news-story/f3296fff4a3afd8d4bcb7d18876add4b
It is quite noticeable that this stuff generally happens away from the actual event, in areas set up by various dubious hospitality companies.
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It's part of the usual stuff where pretty regular or at least averagely bad culture/behaviour is decried as an egregiously unique evil, taking an exceptionalist approach to supposed exceptionalism.Anabobazina said:
There was mass disorder in Paris when France won the World Cup. People have short and selective memories.Brom said:I would also say some of the videos of Italian fans celebrating irresponsibly back home, a lot of injuries across various incidents show that England does not have a monopoly on idiots.
https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/world/riots-break-out-in-paris-after-world-cup-win/1 -
I'm baffled by the relaxed response to the disturbances around Wembley. The government has recently passed an Act restricting the right of protest because it might inconvenience people, but they can have disorder and violence at Wembley and there's no threat of banning crowds at future matches as punishment. I'm pretty sure that most other events would be facing calls for cancellation if they'd seen similar disorder.0
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Given apparent rising tension between the England team and the government, interesting question will be whether (as in 2018) govt invites the squad to Downing St for a reception and indeed if so, whether the players (or all the players) accept?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/12/england-world-cup-team-invited-10-downing-street-reception-theresa-may0
