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BoJo’s “vaccine bounce” seems to be over but Starmer remains in negative territory – politicalbettin

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  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Would you like to provide a comprehensive list of people who aren't elected politicians who you, in your wisdom, don't think should get involved in politics?

    Business leaders? Environmentalists? Journalists? Teachers? Nurses? Astrophysicists? Engineers? Binmen? Contributors to political betting websites?

    Is it your view that we should all watch in silence between elections unless we are ourselves elected? If not, where are you drawing the line? Asking out of curiosity.
    More importantly, what are we all doing here?

    It would only be Sunil and me left, talking about trains and trading awesome puns, if we took that line.
    You're half right ;)
    Well, if it was just him and me I’d have no choice but to talk about trains all the time.
    Always knew you were a little loco...
    Well, I keep coming up with the Goods.
    I am not sure I should be siding with you on this. I also realise when I meet my match and must Tender my resignation
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    I think he has just taken the aged by 20 years pill that is administered to every PM on being elected.
    He could do with a "lose two or three stone" pill
    He was going on about that sort of thing for the natiomn in general a bit more than a year ago after catching the pox.

    He seems to have gone very quiet since. Okay, it's something that he should in a sense have delegated to Mr Hancock, but even so.
    He looks fatter than ever. PM heal thyself !
    Are we in the playground or something?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the government helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Because the contracts of the players aren't synced with the TV deals, a drop in revenue because of the windfall tax would end up ruining and bankrupting clubs.

    They are already up shit up creek because of the rebate and loss in match day income.

    You'd be effectively turning the PL into the SPL because only two teams could win it in Chelsea and Citeh.
    That's why I said the next TV deal (or maybe give them three years grace).
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310
    RobD said:

    Carnyx said:

    TOPPING said:

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    I think he has just taken the aged by 20 years pill that is administered to every PM on being elected.
    He could do with a "lose two or three stone" pill
    He was going on about that sort of thing for the natiomn in general a bit more than a year ago after catching the pox.

    He seems to have gone very quiet since. Okay, it's something that he should in a sense have delegated to Mr Hancock, but even so.
    He looks fatter than ever. PM heal thyself !
    Are we in the playground or something?
    made you look, made you stare...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Really? I voted for the Brexit Party in that election too.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2021

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,642
    tlg86 said:

    That's why I said the next TV deal (or maybe give them three years grace).

    Clubs are signing players on six year contracts (at the top of the market) you'd need a much longer grace period.

    I suspect the PL lawyers would argue that such a windfall tax would be ruinous and damaging to the PL as a whole and the clubs.

    So detrimental that it would lose its status as the best league in the world.

    Government lawyers would have a difficult case to argue (both in the courts and the court of public opinion).

    As we can see in France when a TV deal goes tits up it completely destroys the football pyramid.

    Other than PSG, who are owned by a country.
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,310

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Just watching the BBC News channel. Interesting to hear Sco Mo coming into criticism for a very hard hitting advert.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Really? I voted for the Brexit Party in that election too.
    Over thirty percent of voters did.

    Nigel is full of shit.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Are UKIP a fascist party?
    Generally, partly to avoid Godwinning, and partly because Hitler was a bit sui generis, we hold Mussolini up as the exemplar of fascism. UKIP don't strike me as having much at all in common with Mussolini. Or indeed Franco. Certainly not Hitler. UKIP are essentially, as far as I can see, a reactionary party. Certainly not much they propose is terribly radical.

    You can't conflate 'party I don't like' and 'ideology I don't like' and just assume the two are the same.

    (cf, I suppose, the ideology of BLM with Marxism - though both are essentially about recreating society anew and taking apart capitalism, they probably don't have much more than that in common.)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,642

    What we need is a European super League ;-)

    The European Super League has begun.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11906/12248000/eredivisie-belgian-clubs-vote-in-favour-of-cross-border-league-with-teams-from-the-netherlands

    Kinda got missed during the ESL story.
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.
    Why would you think that I voted for Farage?


  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    Yes, he was; as were Whitty and Vallance. I watched the Press Conference; it doesn't seem to have been commented upon much on here.

    Some PB posters frequently claim the pandemic is "all over" now, but Johnson, Whitty and Vallance were clear that it is not, and I'm more inclined to believe them. They were all absolutely clear that we should expect to see a significant increase in hospitalisations and deaths over the next couple of months.

    It's all a bit of a gamble, and they know it. To tell the public that they are easing restrictions further in the full knowledge that this will have an outcome of more hospitalisations and deaths is, shall I say, brave. I guess they feel they have no alternative, but I'm sure they'd be more comfortable if they were doing this when all willing adults were fully vaccinated. We are still some way off that. Where I live, less than half of adults have had two doses (partly reluctance, partly a younger population).
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    Yes, he was; as were Whitty and Vallance. I watched the Press Conference; it doesn't seem to have been commented upon much on here.

    Some PB posters frequently claim the pandemic is "all over" now, but Johnson, Whitty and Vallance were clear that it is not, and I'm more inclined to believe them. They were all absolutely clear that we should expect to see a significant increase in hospitalisations and deaths over the next couple of months.

    It's all a bit of a gamble, and they know it. To tell the public that they are easing restrictions further in the full knowledge that this will have an outcome of more hospitalisations and deaths is, shall I say, brave. I guess they feel they have no alternative, but I'm sure they'd be more comfortable if they were doing this when all willing adults were fully vaccinated. We are still some way off that. Where I live, less than half of adults have had two doses (partly reluctance, partly a younger population).
    Brave or foolhardy?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    After seeing Johnson looking like a seal wearing

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    You have no shame and just do not get it
    It's his inexorability that makes him so entertaining
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    What we need is a European super League ;-)

    The European Super League has begun.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11906/12248000/eredivisie-belgian-clubs-vote-in-favour-of-cross-border-league-with-teams-from-the-netherlands

    Kinda got missed during the ESL story.
    Is there proper promotion and relegation from that?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,843

    What we need is a European super League ;-)

    The European Super League has begun.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11906/12248000/eredivisie-belgian-clubs-vote-in-favour-of-cross-border-league-with-teams-from-the-netherlands

    Kinda got missed during the ESL story.
    Dutch clubs playing (Flemish) Dutch clubs?
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,415

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.
    Why would you think that I voted for Farage?


    What a strange thread. What an angry fellow. Incredibly rude to people, such as yourself. Can’t see why. I’ve been here not that long but I would never have Phillip Thompson down as a fascist or fascist enabler and his reason for voting BXP seems quite principled. I doubt he’s the only one who lent his vote to them.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    I have just watched the Rendlesham Forest segments from the Citizens hearings - you might find them interesting

    Also, this is well worth a listen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM-xW8YsXKU

    Ross Coulthart (being interviewed) is an investigative reporter who in his latest book takes a look at UAP
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,415
    Cookie said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.

    I’d much rather see a caring young man like Rashford making a difference to his community than a group of pissed up players making dicks of themselves in the dentists chair.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Would you like to provide a comprehensive list of people who aren't elected politicians who you, in your wisdom, don't think should get involved in politics?

    Business leaders? Environmentalists? Journalists? Teachers? Nurses? Astrophysicists? Engineers? Binmen? Contributors to political betting websites?

    Is it your view that we should all watch in silence between elections unless we are ourselves elected? If not, where are you drawing the line? Asking out of curiosity.
    More importantly, what are we all doing here?

    It would only be Sunil and me left, talking about trains and trading awesome puns, if we took that line.
    You're half right ;)
    Well, if it was just him and me I’d have no choice but to talk about trains all the time.
    Always knew you were a little loco...
    Well, I keep coming up with the Goods.
    And you always express yourself so well.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,400
    edited July 2021
    Cookie said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Are UKIP a fascist party?
    Generally, partly to avoid Godwinning, and partly because Hitler was a bit sui generis, we hold Mussolini up as the exemplar of fascism. UKIP don't strike me as having much at all in common with Mussolini. Or indeed Franco. Certainly not Hitler. UKIP are essentially, as far as I can see, a reactionary party. Certainly not much they propose is terribly radical.

    You can't conflate 'party I don't like' and 'ideology I don't like' and just assume the two are the same.

    (cf, I suppose, the ideology of BLM with Marxism - though both are essentially about recreating society anew and taking apart capitalism, they probably don't have much more than that in common.)
    Perhaps the Unity Party in Hungary under Horthy works better as a parallel?
  • AnExileinD4AnExileinD4 Posts: 337
    Taz said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Out of interest, are you actually as stupid as your posts indicate?
    Well they might look stupid to someone who is a fuckwit such as yourself. No doubt you voted for the Brexit Party as well? They were the party of the lower intellect. Oh dear, you have just made me break my vow to be nice to idiots. I really must go and get some tea. Do have a nice evening.
    Why would you think that I voted for Farage?


    What a strange thread. What an angry fellow. Incredibly rude to people, such as yourself. Can’t see why. I’ve been here not that long but I would never have Phillip Thompson down as a fascist or fascist enabler and his reason for voting BXP seems quite principled. I doubt he’s the only one who lent his vote to them.
    To be fair, I hardly gave the respect he believes he deserves. He might consider where D4 is, though.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,701

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for the way you choose to vote.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.

    I’d much rather see a caring young man like Rashford making a difference to his community than a group of pissed up players making dicks of themselves in the dentists chair.
    Careful, you'll have Mr Urquhart listing all their misdemeanors! (though I don't recall Rashford featuring).
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,600
    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    Nothing. The real solution to the Fermi Paradox is that they're all too busy watching Betelgeuse play Alpha Centuri in the fifteenth Planetball Championship (*) to bother with us.

    (*) A game can take up to 10^8 years to play, as it involves each side using gravitational forces to move planets until they form a rude message insulting the opposing team. In the eighth match of the third championship, two commentators broke a Galactic record of speaking non-stop for 1,298 years (**) (***) about their wives' pets whilst the game was paused for a passing grey hole.

    (**) The previous record, held by lkj*j'd and \n\f, ended when lkj*j'd broke the conversation by accidentally mentioning the sport, startling \n\f so much that he choked on a warblefly.

    (***) It is believed that Terrans Andrew Strauss and Jeremy Snape may have broken this record during the third 2021 cricket test match between India and England, but no-one was watching.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.
    This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.

    Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Tres said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for the way you choose to vote.
    I don't blame anyone for how I chose to vote. I chose to vote for the reasons I gave and I stand by it as the right thing to do in those circumstances. It worked. Farage is gone, history. May is gone, history. MEPs are gone, history. The Brexit Party itself is gone, history.

    Mission accomplished.

    I absolutely can and do blame the idiots in my own party that elected a vile xenophobe in 2016, nearly threw the general election and made Jeremy f***ing Corbyn Prime Minister in 2017 and by 2019 were making the Tories completely unelectable and down to a single digit share in the election.

    I am glad the Tories have been rehabilitated from the unelectable mess she was dragging us down to.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.

    I’d much rather see a caring young man like Rashford making a difference to his community than a group of pissed up players making dicks of themselves in the dentists chair.
    Careful, you'll have Mr Urquhart listing all their misdemeanors! (though I don't recall Rashford featuring).
    Its just the truth though e.g. This time last year Maguire was fighting in the street just like the idiots outside the stadium yesterday..Grealish was crashing his car drunk as a skunk after being an illegal party during restrictions....
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,642

    What we need is a European super League ;-)

    The European Super League has begun.

    https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11906/12248000/eredivisie-belgian-clubs-vote-in-favour-of-cross-border-league-with-teams-from-the-netherlands

    Kinda got missed during the ESL story.
    Is there proper promotion and relegation from that?
    That's the plan.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Floater said:

    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    I have just watched the Rendlesham Forest segments from the Citizens hearings - you might find them interesting

    Also, this is well worth a listen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM-xW8YsXKU

    Ross Coulthart (being interviewed) is an investigative reporter who in his latest book takes a look at UAP
    I lose track, have we had the promised pentagon infodump?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    One thing that annoys me during international football tournaments is the commentators going on about which club someone plays for, used to play for, might be signing for, etc.

    I don't give a stuff about any of that. They are playing for their country. End of.

    Not quite as annoying as rugby union commentators wibbling on about which posho school players used to attend, but getting there.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,701

    Tres said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for the way you choose to vote.
    I don't blame anyone for how I chose to vote. I chose to vote for the reasons I gave and I stand by it as the right thing to do in those circumstances. It worked. Farage is gone, history. May is gone, history. MEPs are gone, history. The Brexit Party itself is gone, history.

    Mission accomplished.

    I absolutely can and do blame the idiots in my own party that elected a vile xenophobe in 2016, nearly threw the general election and made Jeremy f***ing Corbyn Prime Minister in 2017 and by 2019 were making the Tories completely unelectable and down to a single digit share in the election.

    I am glad the Tories have been rehabilitated from the unelectable mess she was dragging us down to.
    Just a shame it is still stuffed full of vile xenophobes innit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,103
    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    I don't want to know any aliens who don't enjoy sport, and lament the idiots that come along with it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for the way you choose to vote.
    I don't blame anyone for how I chose to vote. I chose to vote for the reasons I gave and I stand by it as the right thing to do in those circumstances. It worked. Farage is gone, history. May is gone, history. MEPs are gone, history. The Brexit Party itself is gone, history.

    Mission accomplished.

    I absolutely can and do blame the idiots in my own party that elected a vile xenophobe in 2016, nearly threw the general election and made Jeremy f***ing Corbyn Prime Minister in 2017 and by 2019 were making the Tories completely unelectable and down to a single digit share in the election.

    I am glad the Tories have been rehabilitated from the unelectable mess she was dragging us down to.
    Just a shame it is still stuffed full of vile xenophobes innit.
    Well May's still there but she's a backbencher now and not sending vans to minority areas saying "GO HOME" anymore.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    Tres said:

    Tres said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    No I did not. Voting for there to be no MEPs is not fascist.

    Voting for Farage not to be an MEP is not fascist.
    You would have more credibility if you said you regretted it, but clearly you don't, which suggests you are being disingenuous. If Farage or some other fascist promised me the moon on a stick and was able to prove it was true I wouldn't vote for him. I think you protest too much.
    I regret that I was put in that situation by the Party I have supported and been a member of almost all my adult life putting that vile, racist xenophobe into Downing Street so that I had already quit the Party - and I regret that I had nowhere else to go since I couldn't support May.

    I do not regret my vote getting rid of May. I do not regret my vote getting rid of Farage from Brussels. If I said I regretted that I would be lying and I have too much integrity for that.

    I absolutely do regret that my own Party was completely incoherent and incompetent 2016 to 2019 leading us to that situation where such a protest vote was necessary.

    And I'm not alone. Nearly a third of all votes cast, over 30% of votes cast, were for the Brexit Party. 30% of the voters in this country are not fascist and did not back Farage. Most of those voters, like myself, would be Tories who one reason or another couldn't support May any longer which is why the Tories fell to single digits that election.

    Anyone who loyally supported May up to the point that the party collapsed to single digits absolutely should have more regrets than I do.

    PS you're forgetting or wilfully ignoring the fact the election was not for a British government and I was directly voting for Farage not to be in an elected position in the UK anymore. Not to put him into Downing Street. 🙄🤦‍♂️
    You can't blame anyone but yourself for the way you choose to vote.
    I don't blame anyone for how I chose to vote. I chose to vote for the reasons I gave and I stand by it as the right thing to do in those circumstances. It worked. Farage is gone, history. May is gone, history. MEPs are gone, history. The Brexit Party itself is gone, history.

    Mission accomplished.

    I absolutely can and do blame the idiots in my own party that elected a vile xenophobe in 2016, nearly threw the general election and made Jeremy f***ing Corbyn Prime Minister in 2017 and by 2019 were making the Tories completely unelectable and down to a single digit share in the election.

    I am glad the Tories have been rehabilitated from the unelectable mess she was dragging us down to.
    Just a shame it is still stuffed full of vile xenophobes innit.
    Yes, what a xenophobic cabinet.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Voting to get Farage into a European Parliament is a damn sight less controversial than voting for Corbyn to become Prime Minister
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    England squad v Cabinet ministers. Not at all a good look for the Government... https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414664813540696074


    Have approached Priti Patel’s office for a response to Tyrone Mings’ tweet. Have been told they’re not commenting.

    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414664113477783554
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    Floater said:

    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    I have just watched the Rendlesham Forest segments from the Citizens hearings - you might find them interesting

    Also, this is well worth a listen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MM-xW8YsXKU

    Ross Coulthart (being interviewed) is an investigative reporter who in his latest book takes a look at UAP
    Ta. Will watch in bed.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited July 2021
    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have peaked in July on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    edited July 2021
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    Well said Tyrone Mings. 120k likes in 45 mins

    Does she think we are goldfish?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    The England players are brilliant role models for modern Britain, on and off the pitch.

    The team's strength is its diversity, and the players' determination to stand up for what is right.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-southgates-squad-shows-24519312
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    kle4 said:

    moonshine said:

    Floater said:

    So - my youngest son was out in Colchester town centre last night

    Earlier today he told me 2 things he had witnessed

    1 - A guy shouting "Fecking pigs" in police officers faces - he did this 3 times and they warned him if he did it again they would arrest him.

    So, he does it again.

    A policeman punches him full on in the face and he goes down.

    Several police pile in and punch the guy whilst on floor.

    When put in police van he appears at best dazed and had to be carried, my son is convinced he had been knocked out.


    2. A white guy out with his girlfriend - he is abusing 3 afro Caribbean guys about those missed penalties. His girlfriend literally picked him up and dragged him away - I almost wish she had let him try but the other guys might have got records out of it.

    What sort of arsehole makes it a racist thing about missing penalties?

    I despair of human kind sometimes, I really do.

    Just a game innit. Goodness knows what the aliens make of it all.
    I don't want to know any aliens who don't enjoy sport, and lament the idiots that come along with it.
    It does annoy me how such a small number of tossers end up being the face of the country. Not the focused professionals on the pitch. Not their dedicated and low profile support teams. Not the several tens of millions watching at home with their families, making golden memories with each whatever the result, that will last them their lifetime. But a bloke with a firework up his arse and some bottle smashing, barrier breaking thugs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Brom said:

    Voting to get Farage into a European Parliament is a damn sight less controversial than voting for Corbyn to become Prime Minister

    Voting to get him out of it really ought to be even less controversial.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,586
    edited July 2021
    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking.

    R for cases is currently 1.22 and dropping by about 0.04 per day.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    Scott_xP said:

    The England players are brilliant role models for modern Britain, on and off the pitch.

    The team's strength is its diversity, and the players' determination to stand up for what is right.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-southgates-squad-shows-24519312

    A modern England, surely?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,152
    edited July 2021

    One thing that annoys me during international football tournaments is the commentators going on about which club someone plays for, used to play for, might be signing for, etc.

    I don't give a stuff about any of that. They are playing for their country. End of.

    Not quite as annoying as rugby union commentators wibbling on about which posho school players used to attend, but getting there.

    They do have 90 minutes or, in the case of last night, two hours to fill. That inevitably includes breaks in play and lulls in the action. It's hardly shocking that all the chat isn't scintilating to you - and there are plenty of people who are pretty interested in whether someone is moving to a big Premier League club, even if you aren't.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..
    Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    edited July 2021
    Scott_xP said:

    The England players are brilliant role models for modern Britain, on and off the pitch.

    The team's strength is its diversity, and the players' determination to stand up for what is right.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-southgates-squad-shows-24519312

    This thing about the diversity of England team.....England teams for the past 20 years have been diverse, and by diverse we mean black and mixed race, as no virtually no british players of asian or indian sub continent in the professional game in the UK.

    I am interested to know how for instance Starmer thinks a player on international duty breaking covid restrictions to cheat on his partner is being a brilliant role model.....if you are a cabinet minister, he rightly calls for you to go. Drink driver? somebody who assaulted a police officer? I could go on.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    The England players are brilliant role models for modern Britain, on and off the pitch.

    The team's strength is its diversity, and the players' determination to stand up for what is right.


    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-southgates-squad-shows-24519312

    A modern England, surely?
    Not as much diversity north of the wall 😉
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,972
    edited July 2021
    Meanwhile as we all bemoan the racist England fans and the UK government and the 'racist' first Asian Home Secretary, the far right Brothers of Italy takes the lead in a new Italian poll

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1414655140351692803?s=20
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,270

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    Yes, he was; as were Whitty and Vallance. I watched the Press Conference; it doesn't seem to have been commented upon much on here.

    Some PB posters frequently claim the pandemic is "all over" now, but Johnson, Whitty and Vallance were clear that it is not, and I'm more inclined to believe them. They were all absolutely clear that we should expect to see a significant increase in hospitalisations and deaths over the next couple of months.

    It's all a bit of a gamble, and they know it. To tell the public that they are easing restrictions further in the full knowledge that this will have an outcome of more hospitalisations and deaths is, shall I say, brave. I guess they feel they have no alternative, but I'm sure they'd be more comfortable if they were doing this when all willing adults were fully vaccinated. We are still some way off that. Where I live, less than half of adults have had two doses (partly reluctance, partly a younger population).
    I think they got the tone right. After their last press conference and how some ministers and MPs were talking afterwards I thought they might get the message wrong but they adjusted it and I thought they did a good job presenting it.

    The message is clear Covid is not over by a long shot, cases are going to rise and sadly so will deaths. By how much and by how quickly depends on how the public decides to act going forward.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    Hasn't that been the case for a while now?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,586
    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..
    Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.
    According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.
  • TresTres Posts: 2,701
    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    'controversial figure' - well that's a load of tosh to start with.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,972
    Ireland reopens hospitality venues but only for the vaccinated

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1414667234400681991?s=20
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    RobD said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    Hasn't that been the case for a while now?
    Indeed, but it’ll be a cold day in hell before the disgusted footballers vote with their feet and leave Twatter.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    edited July 2021

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,586
    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..
    Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.
    According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.
    But hospital admissions and deaths will continue to rise (nearly treble) over the next two weeks before they reach their peak.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607

    Boris very downbeat this evening.

    Maybe he's trying for the Churchillian vibe - blood, toil, tears and sweat - to encourage responsibility and hard work in others.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662
    edited July 2021
    +150lk likes in an hour
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,972
    The government to make vaccine passports compulsory for large venues if they do not introduce them voluntarily

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414668302148833287?s=20
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,930
    edited July 2021
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.


    I wouldn't be surprised if it actually made things worse. You don't bring people with you by antagonising them.
  • Nunu3Nunu3 Posts: 224

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FPT

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    From the Manchester Evening News

    Conservative MP Natalie Elphicke has apologised after saying Marcus Rashford should have spent more time perfecting his game than playing politics

    BBC said the Dover MP has now apologised saying last night I shared the frustration and heartbreak of millions of England fans

    'I regret messaging privately a rash reaction about Marcus Rashford's missed penalty and apologise to him for any suggestion that he is not fully focused on football'

    Our own @HYUFD said the same objectionable comments and it is time for him to make his own apology

    I am so sorry for Rashford , Sancho and Saka for missing their spot kicks and need to have the love and understanding of our nation, not bigots and idiots making unacceptable comments either on here or on the media generally

    It was pleasing to see how all the England players hugged their colleagues in distress, in marked contrast to Mbappe colleagues who virtually shunned him when he missed his penalty for France

    Ever decent person in the country should have great love and affection for England, it's management and players as they look to grow together over the years into a great side

    And well done Gareth Southgate
    Yes I may have made a cheap point and said so too but there is no doubt a lot of Tories have felt Rashford has spent too much time campaigning on a political line they disagree with.

    As I posted earlier 47% of Tory voters disagreed with Rashford's campaign for free school meals to be extended to the holidays to only 40% in favour
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    You always need to qualify your statements

    Why not be like Natalie Elphicke who has made a straightforward unqualified apology for the same thoughtless comments
    Elphicke only apologised because of her high profile as an MP and the storm around it from the left on twitter, she would not have made the comment in the first place if she did not think it and as I have just posted many if not most of her Tory voters will have backed her in opposing Rashford's campaign as that Yougov polling data shows
    Lets be clear. 47% of Tory voters disagreed with feeding hungry kids. A significant number of whom are the same WWC they complain are discriminated against by taking the knee.

    Same with the education committee Tories horrified at the poor attainment of WWC pupils yet seem to think that repeatedly voting to reduce funding for the schools they go to, repeatedly attacking teachers and exams (too easy) and voting to keep them dirt poor (no we won't keep feeding them in the holidays, we can't afford it).

    I would have more respect for them if they were open about it. We don't like poor people and won't pay for them. The likes of Ben Bradley get mocked when they say poor people will spend handout cash on drugs but at least he is open. the rest are frit.
    It was only free school meals in the holidays they opposed not free school meals in term time when at school, I support that but in the holidays parents get benefits to feed their children if out of work or on a low income
    They get the "benefits" in term time as well. And yet the schools still need to feed them and sometimes clothe them. Blame the parents if you like, but the people who suffer are the children. Who then do poorly at school causing you and yours to then pretend to care about the consequences of your actions.

    Just be clear with everyone, it makes like much easier. You and yours don't care about these kids, don't care about their life chances, and don't think you should pay for them.
    If it is the school holidays then by definition they are not at school.

    As I said I agree with free school meals during term time when they are at school
    Yes, they're not at school. Turning term time the schools need to feed them. Who do you think is feeding them in the holidays? It isn't the parents, that's the whole point.
    Unless they are orphans, living with another family member or in care then yes their parents will be feeding them and in the holidays they get benefits for that if on low incomes or out of work
    Indeed! Their parents "benefits" are sufficient for them to all survive on which is why we need breakfast clubs and free school dinners and teachers giving out snacks, sanitary items and even clothes! So of course they're all fine in the holidays.

    Clueless. Aloof. Selfish. Yup, you;re a Tory Association Chair alright.
    Why bother working if almost everything is paid for by the state?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    The Government will make domestic vaccine passports the law for large venues if they don't introduce them voluntarily now. Quite a threat, contained within a new Step 4 policy document released tonight.
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001343/Moving-to-step-4-of-the-roadmap.pdf https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414668302148833287/photo/1
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,879
    Just to catch up on yesterday's other news...

    As expected, the Party of Action and Solidarity (PAS) party of President Maia Sandu won a landslide in the Moldova general election. They polled 52.7% of the vote and won 63 of the 101 seats in the Parliament. The former governing party coalition of Communists & Socialists won 32 seats on 27.2% of the vote.

    The only other party to get into Parliament was the Eurosceptic SOR (Equality) party which won 6 seats.

    PAS is an observer member of the EPP and pro-EU wanting a better relationship with both the EU and the USA.

    Meanwhile, no real sign of an end to the political deadlock in the EU's poorest state, Bulgaria.

    In the voting for the 240 seat National Assembly, There is Such a Nation (ITN) narrowly topped the poll with 23.9% winning 64 seats (+13). The previous leading party, GERB, fell back further polling 23.7% and losing 12 seats to end with 63. The left-wing Coalition for Bulgaria lost seven seats to 36 while Democratic Bulgaria gained seven seats to 34. Movement of Rights and Freedoms won 29 and the anti-corruption party won 14.

    Where does Bulgarian politics go from here?

    GERB has basically said it will go into opposition so can ITN leader Trifonov put together a stable coalition government with perhaps Democratic Bulgaria and the Movement for Rights & Freedoms? We'll see.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,405
    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have peaked in July on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    Fair enough to be cautious, but Scotland cases are declining and the ZOE ap suggests a more widespread plateau. I doubt we’ve peaked yet, but I’ll be surprised if the peak is as big as some have suggested (100,000 cases a day).
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Tres said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    'controversial figure' - well that's a load of tosh to start with.
    I suspect you don’t watch much football, he’s been cited twice for deliberately stamping on opponents!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,194
    edited July 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.

    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Was Gooch being "involved in politics" with the saffer rebel tour ? Was Botham by declining the invitation ?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607
    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..
    Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.
    According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.
    The regional variations throughout the pandemic have been curious.

    London was barely touched last autumn and this summer but hammered during the winter.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
    And yet one of our posters related a friend being put in hospital by racists in the stadium just last night.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,724
    Scott_xP said:

    The Government will make domestic vaccine passports the law for large venues if they don't introduce them voluntarily now. Quite a threat, contained within a new Step 4 policy document released tonight.
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001343/Moving-to-step-4-of-the-roadmap.pdf https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414668302148833287/photo/1

    They are just so desperate to introduce a national digital id and tracking system.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    I am shocked, shocked to discover the same people who thought new cases peaked in early June due being unable to understand the cyclical weekly nature of case reporting now think we have leaked on the basis of exactly the same misunderstanding.

    You have to take a seven day moving average to allow for the weekly cycle. The seven day moving average of cases seems to be peaking..
    Scotland has passed its peak, the North West had probably hit its peak. Other parts of the country are just getting in their stride.
    According to ZOE, Richmond Park where I live passed its peak about 10 days ago. You have to take an average. Overall the growth rate of new cases is falling rapidly and will be negative within a week.
    The regional variations throughout the pandemic have been curious.

    London was barely touched last autumn and this summer but hammered during the winter.
    All those international best selling airport book writers came back from their countryside escape boltholes?
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,152
    edited July 2021
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    I really don't think you have to do that in order to express a view.

    People can just say "X is an important priority and the money should be found either from lower spending elsewhere or general taxation".

    It might help their argument it they did, and it would also legitimate for someone else to respond to that by saying "I don't think X is a particularly priority, and I just don't think it's worth spending £Y on it".

    But I don't think it's fair to require someone to have the sort of knowledge of the national accounts that would enable them to come up with a fully costed proposal as some kind of entry-level requirement to join the debate.
    What I object to on the FSM issue specifically is the "you're happy for children to go hungry?!!!" angle. It's a c***ish line of argument, which is why I generally think the left are twats.
    It is totally lacking in introspection to say that straw man arguments are in any way unique to one wing of politics.

    If someone opposes a war, they immediately get accused of treachery and appeasement. Argue for the Navy and RNLI to rescue migrants at sea, and certain people allege you want an open door policy.

    None of it is attractive, but the straw man is a feature of political discourse across the board, and always has been. It's one-eyed to claim othewise.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,662

    I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.

    You went to the pub with a racist or a deaf man?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    I stopped at the M 6 Toll services and saw a fresh fruit? Shop called Leon.. We know where our identically named poster got the idea from...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,175
    dixiedean said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
    And yet one of our posters related a friend being put in hospital by racists in the stadium just last night.
    Not wanting to doubt that story, but if it is true it’s sad that it hasn’t been covered by the media. I guess it’s a lot easiest to talk about Twatter as it doesn’t need nearly as much work to establish the facts.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    Dutch Prime Minister @markrutte said that the government made a mistake by scrapping most coronavirus restrictions. https://www.dw.com/en/netherlands-lifted-covid-restrictions-too-soon-pm-apologizes/a-58245202
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.

    Phew! That's that issue settled, then.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,020
    Scott_xP said:

    Another nugget from the document: this week's new guidance for people and businesses is just for the summer. A review will be published in September which could toughen the rules further for the Winter - presumably meaning the return of mandatory restrictions. https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1414669910471581705/photo/1

    It was clear from Witty and Javid statements, they fully expect COVID to be around for a long time to come.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,194

    Taz said:

    Cookie said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Carnyx said:

    tlg86 said:

    Cicero said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Foxy said:

    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.
    This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.

    Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
    Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639

    I have been in the pub tonight. I encountered someone who went yesterday. He said no racism happened.

    You went to the pub with a racist or a deaf man?
    Your contribution on this site is always valued 😊😊😊
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    dixiedean said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
    And yet one of our posters related a friend being put in hospital by racists in the stadium just last night.
    Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,748
    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated.
    In broad principle I agree with this. And then I remember that this is a social media site. And posting honestly on here without anonymity would be tricky for most people with corporate careers.

    So we could say, Facebook and Twitter have to authenticate behind the scenes but your public profile can be anonymous unless you break the law. But do we trust them to be custodians of that info?

    Tricky one. Silencing the nefarious foreign bots and the worst of the racist trolls and disorder spreaders is a big prize but what’s the cost?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,803
    ydoethur said:

    Cookie said:

    moonshine said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well now.

    Marcus Rashford: Dover MP Natalie Elphicke apologises over penalty comments

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-57807264

    Yet Tory voters by 47% to 40% opposed Rashford's campaign to extend free school meals to the school holidays, so plenty of her own voters will have agreed with her
    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    Where is your apology
    There won't be one, I am a Tory and will not apologise for saying something most of my party's voters agree with.

    Elphicke only apologised to get the leftwing twitterati off her back, she would not have said it in the first place if she did not agree with it
    o

    No

    Elphicke apologised because it is the right thing to do

    You shame your position in the party with your response
    Yet it is me who represents most Tory voters views on this, not you.

    https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1317126424587833344?s=20
    I will not be doing it because it would be doxxing you but I guarantee that if I were to call the news desks of some national newspapers right now they would run the Party Chair says Elphicke is Lying story.
    Gven most Daily Mail comments seem to agree with Elphicke and me on this I highly doubt they would given I am only a branch chair but even if they did so what, it is what most Tories think as I have showed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9779813/Tory-MP-Natalie-Elphicke-forced-groveling-climbdown-attack-England-ace-Marcus-Rashford.html#comments
    You are deliberately merging two issues to escape from apologising for saying exactly the same as Natalie Elphicke

    You said Marcus missed penalty was because he involved himself in politics

    The first thing is that your statement is crass and requires an apology, and the second thing is that Marcus has been deliberately non party political on this and that has been accepted

    To smear a young man trying to improve the lives of children takes the biscuit and yes this conservative is proud to back Marcus's campaign
    When I read comments and the attitude from HYFUD about this, it makes me never want to vote conservative again. It’s already an abomination that they are juicing the triple lock at the expense of underfunding universal credit. But it’s compounded by the tory party not understanding how morally disgusting it is to give individuals like me a £15k bung during covid (stamp duty cut) while quibbling over feeding disadvantaged kids. The tribalist blithering from HYFUD blows my mind. Time for a change but seems shuffling the deckchairs in cabinet is not gonna be enough. More of this HYFUD and you’ll have me voting Labour.
    I'm glad that HYUFD does not reflect the Tory Party in reality, he's a Blue Corbynite extremist.

    If he did represent the Party then I'd be out. PDQ.
    What a shame he doesn't then. I have read quite a few of his views and they are rarely as obnoxious and extreme as yours. You voted for a crypto-fascist party, the Brexit Party, founded by Farage who who was named as a racist by Alan Sked, founder of UKIP (if we needed any confirmation). I don't agree with HYUFD on this subject, but you are in no position to get so supercilious.
    I despise Farage.

    I voted for Farage to be sacked as an MEP. He's been sacked as an MEP.

    If he got elected in another platform and I had an option to vote to get him sacked, I'd be happy to take it again.

    What issue do you have with that?
    Good try Philip. You voted for his party. You voted for a fascist, a man who is reputed by one who knew him well to be a racist. You don't despise him, you enthusiastically endorsed him with your vote.
    Bull fucking shit.

    That is a lie. You are lying about me.
    No, I am not aware that I am. You said you voted for the Brexit Party. That party was founded by Farage. A vote for that party has to be an endorsement of the leader of that party particularly if they are also the founder. You will no doubt claim you voted for them to get your beloved Brexit, but by doing so you endorsed Farage, wholeheartedly.

    Unless you are now saying you did not vote for the Faragist/fascist party known by it's official name The Brexit party?
    I have made abundantly clear I never supported the Brexit Party. I never endorsed Farage.

    I cast a protest vote in a meaningless election to get rid of Farage and get rid of the racist, xenophobe May.

    Two birds, one stone. But it was with a peg on the nose and through gritted teeth, I didn't want to do it, but it worked. Far from the first person in democracy to cast a protest vote, and rare to get one so effective as to eliminate people I despised from politics. Which includes ousting Farage from his elected position.
    A vote is an endorsement. You can protest if you like. You voted fascist.
    Are UKIP a fascist party?
    Generally, partly to avoid Godwinning, and partly because Hitler was a bit sui generis, we hold Mussolini up as the exemplar of fascism. UKIP don't strike me as having much at all in common with Mussolini. Or indeed Franco. Certainly not Hitler. UKIP are essentially, as far as I can see, a reactionary party. Certainly not much they propose is terribly radical.

    You can't conflate 'party I don't like' and 'ideology I don't like' and just assume the two are the same.

    (cf, I suppose, the ideology of BLM with Marxism - though both are essentially about recreating society anew and taking apart capitalism, they probably don't have much more than that in common.)
    Perhaps the Unity Party in Hungary under Horthy works better as a parallel?
    Um, perhaps - though drawing parallels with any party 80-odd years ago is a little tricky!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,406
    Brom said:

    dixiedean said:

    Brom said:

    Brom said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    NEW: Perhaps far more damagingly than any of the political interventions above is this which has just been made by an England player. It’s directly addressed to Priti Patel.
    https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1414659973272031248

    You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens. https://twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1414483365558951937
    https://twitter.com/officialtm_3/status/1414655312074784785

    Perhaps a less loaded message would be more appropriate?
    I believe Mings was one of the key pushers for taking the knee when other players had their concerns. He’s a controversial figure on the pitch and I imagine his politics are fairly to the left.

    It’s sad to see how much politics has entered the working man’s game in the past year or so. Racism has and will always exist sadly but the politics tended to orbit football rather than be at the centre of it. I don’t think anything is really sacred any more, sports journalists and presenters think they’re politicians and fanning the flames while it’s the true fans that will suffer.
    Racist fans are no longer welcome and will not be tolerated


    That is a good thing
    The racism is (effectively) not in the stadium, the racism is online. The knee has done nothing to halt online racism, perhaps it’s even made it worse. We need social media platforms to clamp down on hate and ensure every account is authenticated. Footballers taking a knee has done nothing to make this happen, it’s just caused division on and off the pitch, where perhaps the idea behind the knee was to bring people together.


    And for those who said the knee wasn’t political well I’m afraid you’ve now got a mixed race footballer arguing with a female Asian MP. It’s not a good look for either.
    And yet one of our posters related a friend being put in hospital by racists in the stadium just last night.
    Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
    Fair enough. I merely relate what was posted earlier today.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,992
    Bit of an odd situation when the BBC Home Affairs correspondent is calling out an England player for making the same criticism of Priti Patel as the former chairwoman of the Conservative Party https://twitter.com/hannahrosewoods/status/1414670596449910784/photo/1
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    I stopped at the M 6 Toll services and saw a fresh fruit? Shop called Leon.. We know where our identically named poster got the idea from...

    Its also the name of a coffee shop chain, there's one in the Trafford Centre. https://leon.co/
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    Pulpstar said:

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    Time to give @HYUFD a rest and move on.. It isn't worth doxxing or forcing an insincere apology.

    It is ludicrous to suggest that Rashfords campaigning (some six months ago) interfered with his penalties last night. Not least because Footballers train for 4-5 hours per day, so have plenty of free time. Rashford spends it more productively than many of his peers.



    Also, I find it ludicrous that taking the knee somehow makes you a Marxist toytown revolutionary! I mean, did Marx himself ever take the knee? Did Lenin? Stalin?
    Sportspeople shouldn't get involved in politics. That's my view. Leave politics to elected politicians.
    Genuinely, why not?
    Obviously anyone can get involved. My problem with Rashford is that he only gets to say "you should spend more money on x" and doesn't have to consider the other side of the equation (i.e. where does that money come from?).
    But that's not the primary concern of the spending ministries. On that logic, Mr Rashford is perfectly well qualified to be Secretary of State at the Dept of Education or whatever it is called these days. After all, he has to consider the spending priorities of the organizations in which he is already involved, anyway.
    Absolutely! I think he'd be fine as a minister of a government department.

    But if you're not in government, I think you ought to at least think about the revenue raising side of things.

    If I was PM, I'd have invited Rashford to a Downing Street summit and I'd have proposed a decent increase in benefits (better than voucher benefits). But! it would be paid for by a windfall tax on the PL. So 50% of the next domestic TV deal would go to the government. And I'd have insisted on Rashford approving that side of things too.
    That's instantly rebuttable by the principle that taxes are not hypothecated, isn't it? So it would be seen as deliberately vindictive.
    I'm a vindictive kind of person. I actually think a windfall tax on the PL would be justified and enforceable, so I'd be up for doing it anyway.
    But would it be a net revenue raiser?
    I don't see why not. What are you thinking? PL move abroad?
    Yes, probably.

    The PL is the Golden Goose. It raises billions of pounds in taxes annually.

    To screw around with that would be economic vandalism. Laffer Curve in action, jack taxes up and you lose revenues.
    Really? It's a sealed bids process. Sky, BT, Amazon bid shitloads of money for it. What difference does it make if the PL helps itself to some of it?

    The clubs wouldn't have as much to spend on players' wages, but it would dramatically change the PL's popularity.
    Yes.

    If the clubs don't have as much to spend on players wages, then the league ceases to be the best and most competitive league in the world, the clubs don't perform as well in Europe (PL clubs have dominated in Europe) and La Liga becomes the new Premier League.

    Killing the Golden Goose.
    Perhaps. But it's interesting to wonder why the PL made it to the top. Serie A and La Liga had far more money than us 25 years ago. The reason the PL is the dominant league is because it is competitive, the stadiums are full (in normal times) and the football was more direct. That last point of difference has probably gone now, but the other two points are valid more than ever.

    The increase in TV revenue in the last decade has been immense. Do I think the PL is any better than it was a decade ago? Possibly, but not in terms of value for money.

    Maybe it would be unfair to single out footballers for punitive taxation, but the reality is they would be easier targets in my opinion. But I got a bit annoyed during the FSM debate when someone brought up Bill Shankly and how he would have approved of what Marcus was doing. I'm not sure Bill Shankly would approve of PL footballers being taxed at 45p in the pound when they are earning astronomical sums.
    In fairness to Marcus Rashford on this point, he already donates vast portions of his wealth to charity. He probably wouldn't be too uncomfortable with taxation.

    My opinions on Rashford are quite mixed. He's clearly a thoughtful young man; and I found him quite likeable until he started espousing political ideas I disagree with. But he espouses them in a fairly reasonable and considered way. I disagree with him, and I think he is a bit naive at time, but his views on poverty are born of first hand experience. It should be recognised that he's being led by his PR company, but at the same time he's presumably comfortable with the way they are leading him.
    And he is quite good at football. He was one of the first professional footballers to pioneer not being a bellend all the time. Even the best of players have a crappy penalty in them.
    This modern bunch of players are a great contrast to the generation of yesteryear with their conduct off the field.
    This just isn't true. They are a mixed bunch, just as same time as Gazza was a total knobhead, the likes of Shearer and Le Saux are very smart cookies.

    Its total media spin to say they all angelic lot, who behaviour amazingly off the field.
    Foden and Walker are err.. no angels.
    Maguire - fighting with Greek police
    Sterling - 2 court cases for domestic violence (tho he was cleared)
    Grealish - drink driving, use of prostitutes
    Walker and Foden - love a prezzie

    That’s off the top of my head. This group are no different to any past England squad, people just like teams more when they win.
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