Natalie Elphicke story and apology now being spoken about by Jon Craig on Sky
Just what on earth these conservative politicians thought they were doing and saying about Marcus
Mind you they seem to have had a common sense by pass
It's what happens when parties become closed circles- and the Red Wall effect has probably made both of the big two parties more closed in terms of social attitudes and worldview than they were before.
If you start inside the circle of today's Conservative Party, the whole school meals/Rashford thing makes internal sense, and thinking he should stick to his day job is a natural followup. Even more so when he has been a thorn in the side of the government.
It is the wrong response on so many levels that it's hard to know where to begin, but you need to stand outside the circle to see that. And many of the people who might have questioned the attitude have walked, jumped or been pushed.
Much the same can be said of Labour, especially during the Corbyn years, of course.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Online racism has been happening since the internet was invented and become worse since the birth of Twitter. I think all football fans were aware of it. They might shine a light on it but if that’s all they want to do then they won’t solve the problem.
Sadly too many people think taking a knee ends racism when it does nothing of the sort. A new approach is required IMO. Without proper policy like social media boycotts and criminal prosecutions footballers and can still be kneeling in 40 years and there will still be racism in football.
I am no Johnson supporter at all but I think the attempt by remainers and labour supporters and indeed the labour leader to raise the temperature of the race debate for political gain is pretty low.
Southgate himself admitted that most of the worst online racist abuse came from overseas trolls. Quite what the British Prime Minister or the British home secretary can do about them I have no idea.
How is it a failure of leadership to stop overseas racists from abusing our black players?
I'm baffled by the relaxed response to the disturbances around Wembley. The government has recently passed an Act restricting the right of protest because it might inconvenience people, but they can have disorder and violence at Wembley and there's no threat of banning crowds at future matches as punishment. I'm pretty sure that most other events would be facing calls for cancellation if they'd seen similar disorder.
Patriotic innit?
But in any case Mr Johnson can't really target anyone unless he wants to close down Wembley and the FA and the Euros.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
Not every day, often after big matches though particularly if they make mistakes. A sensible idea would be for social media companies to monitor closely the accounts of players during and after these big matches. Of course the best thing they could do is remove anonymity on Twitter and Instagram.
I would also say some of the videos of Italian fans celebrating irresponsibly back home, a lot of injuries across various incidents show that England does not have a monopoly on idiots.
There was mass disorder in Paris when France won the World Cup. People have short and selective memories.
It's part of the usual stuff where pretty regular or at least averagely bad culture/behaviour is decried as an egregiously unique evil, taking an exceptionalist approach to supposed exceptionalism.
Indeed. And that is not to underplay the behaviour of the idiots yesterday. But we should be careful about implying it’s unique to England.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
Taking the knee has done what its BLM creators designed it to do.
It has caused huge racial bitterness and division where it did not exist before.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
Not every day, often after big matches though particularly if they make mistakes. A sensible idea would be for social media companies to monitor closely the accounts of players during and after these big matches. Of course the best thing they could do is remove anonymity on Twitter and Instagram.
Yes, absolutely. Ending social media anonymity would solve so many problems
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
I was reading some Twitter threads earlier that I now can’t find. About the efforts of Facebook staff (in vain) to get management to delete racist content more quickly and to finally treat the issue seriously. Comments that such activity always peaks around black players making errors in football matches. That they had highlighted this tournament in advance to management. And that the simple marker is the use of the monkey emoji. Certainly I can see how the use of an expletive in the same message as a monkey emoji would be the easiest thing imaginable to screen for.
Now you might answer, who cares. Most professional athletes have a PR firm that manages their social media and the players don’t have to see it if they don’t want. But I think that would be an overly cynical position.
Something else to ponder. Any reasonably sized professional outfit has either pre or post message screening and filters on this stuff. How is it I can’t even IM these sorts of messages to a colleague without it being instantly blocked, but Facebook and Twitter pretend it’s too big and contentious a problem for them to tackle?
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
Not every day, often after big matches though particularly if they make mistakes. A sensible idea would be for social media companies to monitor closely the accounts of players during and after these big matches. Of course the best thing they could do is remove anonymity on Twitter and Instagram.
Yes, absolutely. Ending social media anonymity would solve so many problems
(just not on, er, PB? Ta)
Yeah very different as this site is easier to moderate and to my knowledge not many professional footballers have logins!
Sharon Brennan @SharonBrennan · 1h This was due out today, now tomorrow/early this week- debate appears to be whether to reintroduce shielding to all 3.8m /just those immune suppressed /none at all. Concerns medics don’t have capacity to speak to all CEV individually vs Gov who don’t want central policy anymore
I'm baffled by the relaxed response to the disturbances around Wembley. The government has recently passed an Act restricting the right of protest because it might inconvenience people, but they can have disorder and violence at Wembley and there's no threat of banning crowds at future matches as punishment. I'm pretty sure that most other events would be facing calls for cancellation if they'd seen similar disorder.
Well off folk snorting coke, getting blind pissed and engaging in random violence and vandalism is a Great British tradition. There's usually a Royal or two in attendance so we know it isn't an issue. Or even a bit subversive.
Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
How many of those ended up at Wembley. It all looked fairly civilised in the stands (as opposed to outside). Reality is that match going football fans today are fairly middle class. This is something that Hornby talked about Fever Pitch - he could see where it was going.
My friend in the stadium last night begged to differ. Said it was hard to judge the numbers inside because vast swathes were standing only. Guesses it was at or above full capacity despite the ticket cap. Drugs openly being consumed in the stands. Violence before. Violence after. Sounded grim.
Yes. Sadly
I was a little bit insouciant about the hooliganism after Denmark. But it is very clear from multiple reports that Wembley was deeply ugly. We do still have a hardcore of total wankers, who are punchy and violent
As I said: depressing
As the former Top Man of the Truro City Service Crew I'd have thought that you'd have been in the thick of it?
Was it by people who had tickets or not? What block were they in and what time did it happen? Stewards were overwhelmed last night and it’s possible if this incident did happen it was committed by someone with a banning order. Either way if you think there is more racism or much racism at football these days then I thoroughly disagree. I’ve been going every week for years and have only heard homophobic abuse in that time
Oh, well, that's OK then. The nation's football fans are obviously on the threshold of a new age of progressive and enlightened attitudes.
There are very good reasons why supporters at tennis, rugby union and cricket matches do not, by and large, have to be reminded of the basic rules of civilized behaviour, rival fans are all jumbled up together, and booze can be consumed without fear that this will lead to rioting.
Society has a rotten underbelly and much of it may be found festering in football stadiums. To claim otherwise is to exist in a state of denial.
I'd disagree with that, it is something that happens when England are playing.
At club level racism has pretty much disappeared from most grounds in the top flight.
Am I going to take my kids to matches involving Liverpool, hell yes, taking them to England matches? Hell no.
I’ve been to several England matches and never heard a single racist word uttered.
I was at the Stadium of Light in 2003 when we played Turkey and heard plenty of the 'fans' chant 'I'd rather be a Paki than a Turk.'
The two most intimidating grounds I've been to were Fenerbahce in Istanbul and Elland Road in Leeds.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
I was reading some Twitter threads earlier that I now can’t find. About the efforts of Facebook staff (in vain) to get management to delete racist content more quickly and to finally treat the issue seriously. Comments that such activity always peaks around black players making errors in football matches. That they had highlighted this tournament in advance to management. And that the simple marker is the use of the monkey emoji. Certainly I can see how the use of an expletive in the same message as a monkey emoji would be the easiest thing imaginable to screen for.
Now you might answer, who cares. Most professional athletes have a PR firm that manages their social media and the players don’t have to see it if they don’t want. But I think that would be an overly cynical position.
Something else to ponder. Any reasonably sized professional outfit has either pre or post message screening and filters on this stuff. How is it I can’t even IM these sorts of messages to a colleague without it being instantly blocked, but Facebook and Twitter pretend it’s too big and contentious a problem for them to tackle?
It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia
We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web
American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
Certainly matches Nick Hornby’s assessment. I’m not sure you’d have any trouble at a regular international at Wembley. It’s the easier trips abroad and tournament games where the scum turn up. But on the whole I reckon England crowds are as middle class as PL crowds.
How many of those ended up at Wembley. It all looked fairly civilised in the stands (as opposed to outside). Reality is that match going football fans today are fairly middle class. This is something that Hornby talked about Fever Pitch - he could see where it was going.
My friend in the stadium last night begged to differ. Said it was hard to judge the numbers inside because vast swathes were standing only. Guesses it was at or above full capacity despite the ticket cap. Drugs openly being consumed in the stands. Violence before. Violence after. Sounded grim.
Yes. Sadly
I was a little bit insouciant about the hooliganism after Denmark. But it is very clear from multiple reports that Wembley was deeply ugly. We do still have a hardcore of total wankers, who are punchy and violent
As I said: depressing
As the former Top Man of the Truro City Service Crew I'd have thought that you'd have been in the thick of it?
You're thinking of Eadric. I was Hereford United, and the peak of my hooliganism was running away, as fast as my teenage legs could manage, from the marauding hordes of Wolverhampton Wanderers
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
So it would appear, these players face horrific online racism all the time. Which largely goes unremarked and unreported upon. I certainly hadn’t heard how common place it was. The argument over the knee has led to this abuse now being thrown into the bright lights.
I wasn’t a fan of the gesture and the perceived politicisation of sport. But I find myself today having changed my mind. Good for them.
Do they generally face online racism? I am happy to be persuaded. I am in a mind-changing mood
I was reading some Twitter threads earlier that I now can’t find. About the efforts of Facebook staff (in vain) to get management to delete racist content more quickly and to finally treat the issue seriously. Comments that such activity always peaks around black players making errors in football matches. That they had highlighted this tournament in advance to management. And that the simple marker is the use of the monkey emoji. Certainly I can see how the use of an expletive in the same message as a monkey emoji would be the easiest thing imaginable to screen for.
Now you might answer, who cares. Most professional athletes have a PR firm that manages their social media and the players don’t have to see it if they don’t want. But I think that would be an overly cynical position.
Something else to ponder. Any reasonably sized professional outfit has either pre or post message screening and filters on this stuff. How is it I can’t even IM these sorts of messages to a colleague without it being instantly blocked, but Facebook and Twitter pretend it’s too big and contentious a problem for them to tackle?
It is odd. And it so easy to game if you are a malign foreign actor, eg Russia
We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web
American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
However. You are sewmingly permanently hysterical about something Woke on Twitter.
England taking the knee forced me to make racist remarks.
I doubt that, but England taking the knee helping the fight against racism? It would be hard to say it has.
Perhaps those fighting hard to take a knee/stop taking a knee should work together and consider some substantial action that can make a difference, particularly against social media platform abuse rather than reaffirming their entrenched stances on a fairly hollow gesture politics debate.
Taking the knee has done what its BLM creators designed it to do.
It has caused huge racial bitterness and division where it did not exist before.
It is unwatchably amateurish. I’d probably watch it from time to time just to challenge myself and wind myself up (I often read the Mail). But it’s so badly produced that it’s just impossible to engage with.
What a depressing evening. A summer night of cold torrential rain. We have blown our best ever chance of winning a major football tournament, thanks to a silly manager. We are represented abroad by a man with a firework up his arse, AKA Boris Johnson.
Nice weather is just around the corner, England failed better than last time and Boris won't be around forever.
One wouldn't wish to give the impression from one's opening remarks that one thought everything was awful, because it isn't really.
It is intrinsic to tournaments with 24 entrants that 23 will go home trophy-less. More than likely that trophy will go to one of a handful of national teams. Increasingly, European ones too. It is 2 decades since a non European team won the World Cup, and hard to see a competitive non European side emerging.
It is unwatchably amateurish. I’d probably watch it from time to time just to challenge myself and wind myself up (I often read the Mail). But it’s so badly produced that it’s just impossible to engage with.
This station lives rent free in so many people, like Owen Jones’s, head.
It is so poorly produced it is like those old local tv channels that all ended up merging.
Comments
If you start inside the circle of today's Conservative Party, the whole school meals/Rashford thing makes internal sense, and thinking he should stick to his day job is a natural followup. Even more so when he has been a thorn in the side of the government.
It is the wrong response on so many levels that it's hard to know where to begin, but you need to stand outside the circle to see that. And many of the people who might have questioned the attitude have walked, jumped or been pushed.
Much the same can be said of Labour, especially during the Corbyn years, of course.
Sadly too many people think taking a knee ends racism when it does nothing of the sort. A new approach is required IMO. Without proper policy like social media boycotts and criminal prosecutions footballers and can still be kneeling in 40 years and there will still be racism in football.
Southgate himself admitted that most of the worst online racist abuse came from overseas trolls. Quite what the British Prime Minister or the British home secretary can do about them I have no idea.
How is it a failure of leadership to stop overseas racists from abusing our black players?
But in any case Mr Johnson can't really target anyone unless he wants to close down Wembley and the FA and the Euros.
Not like some committee of lefties.
Similarly I advise not driving through high water (unless it's a dedicated Land Rover for instance) unless you want to total the engine.
It has caused huge racial bitterness and division where it did not exist before.
That was always its aim.
(just not on, er, PB? Ta)
Now you might answer, who cares. Most professional athletes have a PR firm that manages their social media and the players don’t have to see it if they don’t want. But I think that would be an overly cynical position.
Something else to ponder. Any reasonably sized professional outfit has either pre or post message screening and filters on this stuff. How is it I can’t even IM these sorts of messages to a colleague without it being instantly blocked, but Facebook and Twitter pretend it’s too big and contentious a problem for them to tackle?
@SharonBrennan
·
1h
This was due out today, now tomorrow/early this week- debate appears to be whether to reintroduce shielding to all 3.8m /just those immune suppressed /none at all. Concerns medics don’t have capacity to speak to all CEV individually vs Gov who don’t want central policy anymore
There's usually a Royal or two in attendance so we know it isn't an issue. Or even a bit subversive.
We've been discussing the mad "Russian" Scot-nat-o-bot, and her skill at seeming quasi plausible, to roil Unionists and devalue Nattery. How much simpler to just stoke racial grievance. You don't need an English-speaking brainaic in Novosibirsk to do that, you just need a GPT2-ish AI to endlessly create social media accounts and swamp the web
American discourse has been totally poisoned by this, both sides will not even speak to each other. We are next for targetting. It is obvious. So easy to do. Destroy a country with a few million tweets. Doddle
NEW THREAD
It is so poorly produced it is like those old local tv channels that all ended up merging.