Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

Something to watch over the next few weeks? – politicalbetting.com

2456

Comments

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,249

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
    A year later Trent Bridge had a 167 last wicket partnership by Hughes and Agar:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-england-and-scotland-2013-531603/england-vs-australia-1st-test-566932/full-scorecard
    I was at Cheltenham when he put on that stand, and the announcer read out the close of innings from Trent Bridge. ‘Ashton Agar, 98.’ Pause. ‘Yeah, you have to feel for him, don’t you?’
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,241
    Sandpit said:

    Ironically, and circling back to being on topic, the issues and problems caused by the NI border will be considerably more fraught when discussing the border between England and Scotland, were the latter to leave the UK and join the EU.

    Using the arguments the EU are currently using in NI, their only possible border between England and Scotland will be a very hard one indeed.

    By the time we get there I doubt the GB position will remain as it is today. A solution will have been found to the Irish Border because it has to be. Whatever that solution is will apply to Scotland.

    Anyway, when Czechoslovakia stopped being a thing, the two new nations quickly found themselves trading more with the EEA direct than with each other. If England is still acting like a petulant child then an EEA > Scotland > NI > ROI > France circular route may end up dominant for freight.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,241
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Despite the small number of loons who think we can arbitrarily do what we like and the rest of the world will say "we can trust you" and sign grand new deals that are Great for GB, the intra-Irish border was always the elephant in the room.

    Whist May's deal provided a solution, it was only offered after she had torpedoed the long-term version of that solution so I can't give her as much credit as you even in hindsight.

    What makes it funniest of all is that we are arguing about our right to do what we like even as the same government pledges to not only stay aligned to the EU on standards but to increase our standards thus ensuring we remain aligned.

    There is no need for the impasse because the clown car government has enacted the May deal with regards to trade alignment. If we stopped twatting about we could have free trade next week as all the conditions are there for it.

    As the G7 has demonstrated, the rest of the world doesn't see perfidious Europeans, it sees lying Brits ripping up their own agreement. We have shown that we can't be trusted which is why the likes of America have said they expect us to start to behave if we want to be relevant to the club. The two photos the White House released say it all. Biden with his hand on Johnson's back, speaking to a small child. And Biden speaking to Macron as equals.
    It all comes down to alignment vs dynamic alignment. The latter ain’t going to happen. We’re not a satrapy
    Love, this is where reality needs to kick in. You are stuck in Life of Brian arguing for the right to have babies even though you can't have babies because you possess neither a womb nor a box.

    We ARE aligned right now. Both us and them say we will only increase our standards. So we will remain broadly aligned in the future. At whatever point that is where we or they get out of step then a fudge can be found.

    You are saying you are prepared for pain now - including trade sanctions and snubbing by our closest allies like the US - because of something that may happen in the future. We are a Sovereign Nation, and having written the EEA standards we can say we're going to maintain them and remain sovereign. Instead of the EEA dictating these standards we are choosing them.

    Isn't that enough? Or do you really want sanctions and international pariah status. What - if you don't mind me asking - is fucking Conservative about that?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    Roadmap: One of the big problems i have about the Govt/Johnson line is that they are just being "cautious" in relation to the decision on June 21st is the reason they/he gives for it. ie. that the unlocking/"freedom" must be "irreversible". Because the only thing which guarantees "irreversibility" is a Government not prepared to reverse under ANY circumstances. And really, that ship sailed with the initial lockdown back in March 2020. If there are circumstances where Johnson might consider reversing course, and reimposing restrictions, then it can not be irreversible. Short of worldwide elimination of the virus (and/or elimination of the virus in this country and no foreign travel ever again) Whether the decision is taken for June 21st, July 5th, July 21s, April 30th.

    It's a big red flag. And explains why we are where we are to today. I am pretty sure that when Johnson says he never wants to go back he is convinced of that in his own mind. But he was i'm sure equally convinced in what he thought in Feb 2020, or March 2020, or June 2020, or October 2020, or December 2020.

    But when the circumstances change, he changes his mind. How can the Government simultaneously be thinking that the decision on June 21st depends on a conviction of "irreversibility" whilst considering that booster vaccines might be needed in Autumn? If there isn't enough vaccine coverage now, when the vast majority of the vulnerable are vaccinated, and the vaccine appears to have high efficacy against the current 'variant of concern' then there certainly wouldn't be in a circumstance that the Government are realistically planning for where the vulnerable need boosters. Or when they still consider there is a possibility of yet undeveloped variants against which the current vaccines won't work. Or...

    The decisions need to be made based on the facts on the ground now. Not on where they might be in the future. The future is another country.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Despite the small number of loons who think we can arbitrarily do what we like and the rest of the world will say "we can trust you" and sign grand new deals that are Great for GB, the intra-Irish border was always the elephant in the room.

    Whist May's deal provided a solution, it was only offered after she had torpedoed the long-term version of that solution so I can't give her as much credit as you even in hindsight.

    What makes it funniest of all is that we are arguing about our right to do what we like even as the same government pledges to not only stay aligned to the EU on standards but to increase our standards thus ensuring we remain aligned.

    There is no need for the impasse because the clown car government has enacted the May deal with regards to trade alignment. If we stopped twatting about we could have free trade next week as all the conditions are there for it.

    As the G7 has demonstrated, the rest of the world doesn't see perfidious Europeans, it sees lying Brits ripping up their own agreement. We have shown that we can't be trusted which is why the likes of America have said they expect us to start to behave if we want to be relevant to the club. The two photos the White House released say it all. Biden with his hand on Johnson's back, speaking to a small child. And Biden speaking to Macron as equals.
    It all comes down to alignment vs dynamic alignment. The latter ain’t going to happen. We’re not a satrapy
    "Dynamic" alignment also is all a one way street. It requires the UK to follow EU minimum standards but not the other way around.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,856
    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    A piece aimed (presumably) at demolishing stereotypes and caricatures of northern Conservative voters is of course riddled with stereotypes and caricatures.

    If things are as good as this article suggests. however, the last thing this country needs is any "levelling up" for the north. It's clear we need much more spending in London and the South to help we poor miserable southerners with our 2-hour commutes, little flats and mountains of student debt.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    On topic, I’m one of those who expects England to underperform in the Euros. 1996 apart, they have an abysmal record in the tournament, and I would tip an England 0 Scotland 1 score next Friday: England 80% possession, goalkeeping heroics, wasted chances etc, breakaway goal early in the second half following Stones losing possession in midfield - oh yes, I can see it all now. Will this, then be just the fillip that Yes needs?
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,182
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what?
    SNP incompetence. Well I’m shocked.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,182
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    A piece aimed (presumably) at demolishing stereotypes and caricatures of northern Conservative voters is of course riddled with stereotypes and caricatures.

    If things are as good as this article suggests. however, the last thing this country needs is any "levelling up" for the north. It's clear we need much more spending in London and the South to help we poor miserable southerners with our 2-hour commutes, little flats and mountains of student debt.
    Lol, top quality troll bait.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,202
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
    A year later Trent Bridge had a 167 last wicket partnership by Hughes and Agar:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-england-and-scotland-2013-531603/england-vs-australia-1st-test-566932/full-scorecard
    I was at Cheltenham when he put on that stand, and the announcer read out the close of innings from Trent Bridge. ‘Ashton Agar, 98.’ Pause. ‘Yeah, you have to feel for him, don’t you?’
    Not really. He was out stumped and not given, even though he should have been, for fairly few runs.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,237
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
    Things are not proceeding optimally. I had hoped once we actually left the clear, obvious mutual self interest of cooperation would prevail but it is at best a mixed bag with more emphasis on pomposity and grandstanding than progress. I would say that this is mainly the French and there is some hope that the example of scientific cooperation where many countries told them to calm down and behave might become more common but that is by no means certain.

    What I am seeing on both sides in many cases is a hardening of attitudes. A lot of people I speak to, even those that voted remain, are now very relieved that we have left. It seems likely to me that EU exports to the UK are going to take a very serious hit. We are looking for our own path, particularly through the TPP. The EU don't like that we are no longer supplicants and are playing hard ball.

    Sadly, they have plenty of opportunities to do so because the NI protocol was simply never going to work. It was not so much a sticking plaster as a convenient lie and the government's lies are now being exposed. It is uncomfortable.
  • Options
    TazTaz Posts: 11,182

    FPT:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Scott_xP said:

    Dominic Raab says "on balance" Britain does not think killer Covid leaked from a Wuhan lab. "We think it is much more likely it jumped from animals to humans." But he calls fro full probe into it #ridge
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1403983207012388864

    They are not exclusive alternatives. Stupid man.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
  • Options
    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,140
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    I think the assumption right now is that restrictions will carry on for years on both sides of the border. In this respect, Sturgeon and Johnson are just two sides of the same coin.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    Taz said:

    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    A piece aimed (presumably) at demolishing stereotypes and caricatures of northern Conservative voters is of course riddled with stereotypes and caricatures.

    If things are as good as this article suggests. however, the last thing this country needs is any "levelling up" for the north. It's clear we need much more spending in London and the South to help we poor miserable southerners with our 2-hour commutes, little flats and mountains of student debt.
    Lol, top quality troll bait.
    ‘Please give generously: every £3 funds an additional macchiato with almond milk and extra shot’.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091
    Leon said:
    Its bollox and we know its bollox from the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    "Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system?"

    Yes - this has been obvious for months.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    It's not that odd. The Covid app is not designed for anything other than test and trace and contains no health data. The NHS app is linked directly into your NHS record. Which contains your vaccination status linked to your NHS number.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    I got the piece of cardboard after the first vaccination but nothing yesterday.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited June 2021
    Taz said:

    FPT:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now
    Certainly my experience of Grimsby - another of those supposedly awful places that's full of nice houses and comfortably off people, and which has also recently given Labour the heave-ho.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    A piece aimed (presumably) at demolishing stereotypes and caricatures of northern Conservative voters is of course riddled with stereotypes and caricatures.

    If things are as good as this article suggests. however, the last thing this country needs is any "levelling up" for the north. It's clear we need much more spending in London and the South to help we poor miserable southerners with our 2-hour commutes, little flats and mountains of student debt.
    The levelling up that London and the south east requires isn't a wealth transfer between regions but a wealth transfer between generations.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    DavidL said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    I got the piece of cardboard after the first vaccination but nothing yesterday.
    Anyone could fake a bit of cardboard. It's not evidence of anything.
  • Options
    FishingFishing Posts: 4,561

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    I don't understand this argument. The Freedom of Movement in the EEA (not EU) was something we absolutely had the power to restrict. Belgium would deport people who didn't have jobs or the means to support themselves. The right to live and work is not the right to sponge. Successive UK governments failed to enact these rights - how is that the fault of the EU?
    We needed a full rollback, not tinkering at the edges, which would have been difficult to enforce anyway. It is much simpler and cheaper to prevent people coming in in the first place than remove them once they're here. The salient fact is that Labour said that 13,000 people would settle in the UK after 2004. At least 2 million, probably more, have. That is the single fact that blew us out of the EU. FWIW I agree out government could have done a bit more under the existing rules, but it would hardly have begun to address the numbers.

    Now that we have the rights to do what we want at the border we on one hand allow pox-laden people to fly in without even a check, and have leading Brexiteers like Tim Martin bleating that anti-foreign rhetoric encouraged by Tim Martin means that Tim Martin can't recruit enough foreign labour. Perhaps - and its only a suggestion based on the available evidence - we need the foreigners after all.

    Parts of industry certainly want them - cheaper than paying the going rate in the UK. And weaning it off the supply of cheap foreign labour is an excellent reason to leave.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    A card with dates, vaccine and batch number details, and after a couple of days on the NHS app (not NHS covid app) a QR code which says you should present it when travelling as evidence of Covid vaccination status.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    Leon said:
    Its bollox and we know its bollox from the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees.
    Yes, we can all see that, but we aren't making the decisions. Clown Shoes is making the decisions, and he'll shit himself and do whatever the Susan Michie brigade demands of him.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,856
    Morning all :)

    I'm far from convinced sport is this great political influencer - I'm struggling to think of when it has been here though I do accept in other countries there are some genuine examples of where sporting success has changed or affected national behaviours.

    As a punter, I'll back against England all day every day because we are always ridiculously priced based on any form of objective assessment. That doesn't mean we won't or can't win and apparently we are all in dire need of a "feelgood factor" currently so everyone will be shouting "we hail Boris" (or something like that) if England somehow navigate the sea of footballing hazard and get to Wemb-er-ley four weeks today.

    As the individualistic party-pooping misanthrope that I am (apparently), you'll forgive me if I opine Euro2020 isn't a) the only or even b) the most important sporting event of the coming week.

    We have the wonderful pageantry of Royal Ascot - five days of the best racing anywhere. Unfortunately, this year it's been diluted by adding some handicaps at the end of the day (for reasons about which I'm not all that clear given how dire yesterday's racing was) but nonetheless the first two thirds of each day will contain world class racing.

    As a punter, I find that way more appealing then the football and as for the cricket, well, I got a lot of stick from Mrs Stodge's parents in NZ last night so clearly sporting success does help to make people feel better - as an aside, they are in their 80s and both being vaccinated (Pfizer, first dose) this week.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,722
    Two points on Northern Ireland.

    Boris Johnson chose no GB mainland alignment with the EU over avoiding a border in the Irish Sea. It remains his choice today. Theresa May prioritised the integrity of the United Kingdom and was pushed out. I was astonished that Johnson negotiated this deal, but it does get that clean break which may be the driver of his Brexit success, such as it is.

    The point is, Johnson is utterly disingenuous when he says he won't others split his country. He did it himself, quite consciously.

    People here asking what is the solution for Northern Ireland? It may be the Protocol. No-one likes it but it is better than one other option for all parties.

    For Ireland and most people in Northern Ireland (whose opinions seem to be the last to be considered), it is better than a hard border in the Island. For Ireland it is also better than diverging from the Single Market. For the UK government it is better than GB mainland alignment with the EU, as I have just said. For the EU it is better than compromising the external borders of its Single Market.

    For the DUP, it is a bit more complicated. In principle they need Northern Ireland to be a success, because its a safe harbour that they care about and no-one else does. Don't screw it up. Problem is, they have been screwing it up bigtime recently and are doing the same with the Protocol. First by supporting Brexit when they should have realised the status quo was a friend, secondly by throwing their lot in with the English nationalists surrounding Johnson who are no friends of the Union, and now again with the Protocol.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    This #G7Summit2021 should have been the moment Britain stepped up to achieve groundbreaking global agreements on COVID, climate change and fair taxation. Instead it has exposed just how badly the Prime Minister has trashed our most important relationships https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/12/brexit-bust-up-torpedoes-johnsons-bid-to-showcase-global-britain?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm far from convinced sport is this great political influencer - I'm struggling to think of when it has been here though I do accept in other countries there are some genuine examples of where sporting success has changed or affected national behaviours.

    As a punter, I'll back against England all day every day because we are always ridiculously priced based on any form of objective assessment. That doesn't mean we won't or can't win and apparently we are all in dire need of a "feelgood factor" currently so everyone will be shouting "we hail Boris" (or something like that) if England somehow navigate the sea of footballing hazard and get to Wemb-er-ley four weeks today.

    As the individualistic party-pooping misanthrope that I am (apparently), you'll forgive me if I opine Euro2020 isn't a) the only or even b) the most important sporting event of the coming week.

    We have the wonderful pageantry of Royal Ascot - five days of the best racing anywhere. Unfortunately, this year it's been diluted by adding some handicaps at the end of the day (for reasons about which I'm not all that clear given how dire yesterday's racing was) but nonetheless the first two thirds of each day will contain world class racing.

    As a punter, I find that way more appealing then the football and as for the cricket, well, I got a lot of stick from Mrs Stodge's parents in NZ last night so clearly sporting success does help to make people feel better - as an aside, they are in their 80s and both being vaccinated (Pfizer, first dose) this week.

    I've only had a very small lay on England because I want to keep wanting them to win when I watch the games.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    A card with dates, vaccine and batch number details, and after a couple of days on the NHS app (not NHS covid app) a QR code which says you should present it when travelling as evidence of Covid vaccination status.
    Apparently the Scottish government considers it would be discriminatory to give freedoms to the vaccinated. It would be racist because there are significantly fewer vaccinated amongst her Southside constituents. It is ageist because young people aren't either. It is completely and utterly barking. But that is normal.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    No completely separate. The NHS app (and a couple of alternatives which also work) existed before Covid, and is designed to link (if you wish) to your NHS patient record (and do other things like book GP appointments online etc etc). Because it uses your NHS number it is able to link into the database of COVID vaccinations (even if you haven't set up the access to your patient record etc) and give you your vaccination status etc.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,249
    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    NHS app shows prescriptions ordered and on order, and appointments. Not sure about other stuff. That will come I suspect whatever qualms some of us have over where this is going.
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,980
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    I have a little card with the dates of vaccination and batch numbers, but I doubt it’ll impress at passport control.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,722
    DavidL said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
    Things are not proceeding optimally. I had hoped once we actually left the clear, obvious mutual self interest of cooperation would prevail but it is at best a mixed bag with more emphasis on pomposity and grandstanding than progress. I would say that this is mainly the French and there is some hope that the example of scientific cooperation where many countries told them to calm down and behave might become more common but that is by no means certain.

    What I am seeing on both sides in many cases is a hardening of attitudes. A lot of people I speak to, even those that voted remain, are now very relieved that we have left. It seems likely to me that EU exports to the UK are going to take a very serious hit. We are looking for our own path, particularly through the TPP. The EU don't like that we are no longer supplicants and are playing hard ball.

    Sadly, they have plenty of opportunities to do so because the NI protocol was simply never going to work. It was not so much a sticking plaster as a convenient lie and the government's lies are now being exposed. It is uncomfortable.
    Visible from space category of prediction, but agree things have turned out largely as I expected them to.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,999
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Yes, it’s very impressive.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    Does that work for people in Scotland though ?
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    Almost undoubtedly I should think. Although not given to 1984 think I'm afraid I fake it with the covid app, I just wave a phone at the QR code but don't let it register. Nobody notices or minds.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    DavidL said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    I got the piece of cardboard after the first vaccination but nothing yesterday.
    The tatty piece of cardboard should have been annotated with your second jab details. With mine they put a sticker on (which is very fancy).

    (Panini should bring our a Covid vax version of their sticker collector books.)
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,856

    Taz said:


    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now

    Certainly my experience of Grimsby - another of those supposedly awful places that's full of nice houses and comfortably off people, and which has also recently given Labour the heave-ho.
    For me, it was 30 years ago when I was doing my tour of British racecourses and I went to Sedgefield. I imagined a grimy mining town, a bit like South Wales, but it was nothing like it. Rural and some beautiful views and Bishop Auckland was delightful.

    The same is true down here - I would imagine those who don't know might assume places like St Just, Hayle and Camborne in Cornwall would be pretty little seaside towns (like St Ives) - they aren't.

    The reality of England, let alone Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, is it overturns our assumptions and pre-conceptions and rightly so. It is so much more varied and nuanced and complex than lazy writers or thinkers make it - I do wonder if television representations of places like London, Manchester or rural Yorkshire in soaps have perpetuated and deepened these misconceptions.

    Albert Square is not real - there is nowhere in London I can think of that is anything like it.
  • Options
    Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    FF43 said:

    Two points on Northern Ireland.

    Boris Johnson chose no GB mainland alignment with the EU over avoiding a border in the Irish Sea. It remains his choice today. Theresa May prioritised the integrity of the United Kingdom and was pushed out. I was astonished that Johnson negotiated this deal, but it does get that clean break which may be the driver of his Brexit success, such as it is.

    The point is, Johnson is utterly disingenuous when he says he won't others split his country. He did it himself, quite consciously.

    People here asking what is the solution for Northern Ireland? It may be the Protocol. No-one likes it but it is better than one other option for all parties.

    For Ireland and most people in Northern Ireland (whose opinions seem to be the last to be considered), it is better than a hard border in the Island. For Ireland it is also better than diverging from the Single Market. For the UK government it is better than GB mainland alignment with the EU, as I have just said. For the EU it is better than compromising the external borders of its Single Market.

    For the DUP, it is a bit more complicated. In principle they need Northern Ireland to be a success, because its a safe harbour that they care about and no-one else does. Don't screw it up. Problem is, they have been screwing it up bigtime recently and are doing the same with the Protocol. First by supporting Brexit when they should have realised the status quo was a friend, secondly by throwing their lot in with the English nationalists surrounding Johnson who are no friends of the Union, and now again with the Protocol.

    Johnson's not an English Nationalist. He's probably not a Unionist either - he's for whatever solution works best for him electorally, and Ulster doesn't return Tory MPs - but his party is, and he has to listen to them occasionally.

    If Johnson were an English Nationalist then he'd neither be kicking up this fuss with Macron over Northern Ireland's status, or putting his foot down over IndyRef2. There has to be principle behind this somewhere, even if the principles are those of his MPs and party members, rather than those of the man himself.

    After all, the more pieces of the UK that fall off, the stronger his party's stranglehold on power in London becomes, and the more money it has to spend.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    DavidL said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    A card with dates, vaccine and batch number details, and after a couple of days on the NHS app (not NHS covid app) a QR code which says you should present it when travelling as evidence of Covid vaccination status.
    Apparently the Scottish government considers it would be discriminatory to give freedoms to the vaccinated. It would be racist because there are significantly fewer vaccinated amongst her Southside constituents. It is ageist because young people aren't either. It is completely and utterly barking. But that is normal.
    They are also very slow. I'm in Scotland now and my 5 years older brother in law is 5 weeks behind me.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    Almost undoubtedly I should think. Although not given to 1984 think I'm afraid I fake it with the covid app, I just wave a phone at the QR code but don't let it register. Nobody notices or minds.
    That's what my wife does but I'm such a law-abiding puss I'd feel physically sick with guilt if I did that.
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited June 2021
    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    What would be the point/purpose?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997
    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    A somewhat similar experience, Mr L, to that of my 32 year old granddaughter in Leeds yesterday. Her appointment was booked but there were many, many walk-ins.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047
    FF43 said:

    Two points on Northern Ireland.

    Boris Johnson chose no GB mainland alignment with the EU over avoiding a border in the Irish Sea. It remains his choice today. Theresa May prioritised the integrity of the United Kingdom and was pushed out. I was astonished that Johnson negotiated this deal, but it does get that clean break which may be the driver of his Brexit success, such as it is.

    The point is, Johnson is utterly disingenuous when he says he won't others split his country. He did it himself, quite consciously.

    People here asking what is the solution for Northern Ireland? It may be the Protocol. No-one likes it but it is better than one other option for all parties.

    For Ireland and most people in Northern Ireland (whose opinions seem to be the last to be considered), it is better than a hard border in the Island. For Ireland it is also better than diverging from the Single Market. For the UK government it is better than GB mainland alignment with the EU, as I have just said. For the EU it is better than compromising the external borders of its Single Market.

    For the DUP, it is a bit more complicated. In principle they need Northern Ireland to be a success, because its a safe harbour that they care about and no-one else does. Don't screw it up. Problem is, they have been screwing it up bigtime recently and are doing the same with the Protocol. First by supporting Brexit when they should have realised the status quo was a friend, secondly by throwing their lot in with the English nationalists surrounding Johnson who are no friends of the Union, and now again with the Protocol.

    Very good post. Should be read by everyone arguing over the issue.

    A border in the Irish sea may be the 'best' solution but it shouldn't have been disingenuously imposed on NI in the way it was.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091
    Taz said:

    FPT:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now
    "Our family's always been Labour, they're the party of the working class."

    I'm sure there is an equivalent Conservative mentality in parts of the South.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719

    Leon said:
    Its bollox and we know its bollox from the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees.
    Yes, we can all see that, but we aren't making the decisions. Clown Shoes is making the decisions, and he'll shit himself and do whatever the Susan Michie brigade demands of him.
    I flirted with this idea a year ago but got ridiculed, but I'll risk floating it again: is there a hidden agenda by some people, who regretfully now have power, to hobble liberal democracy itself?
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 40,930
    edited June 2021
    ‘King of the Middle Class Radicals’

    Lord Ashcroft has written a biography of Sir Keir, ‘Red Knight’, and the Labour leader isn’t happy about it. As it questions the working class credentials he likes to talk about, and reveals he lets people think he was the inspiration for Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones when the author has confirmed he wasn’t, I’m not surprised.

    “Sir Keir did not want this story to be written. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that he actively obstructed it.

    While I am the first to accept that everybody is entitled to a private life, I also believe that any politician who presents themselves to the country as the Prime Minister-in-waiting should have a skin thick enough to be untroubled about a study of their character.

    By having such a prickly reaction to my decision to write his story, Sir Keir has arguably shown more of himself than he perhaps realised.”

    https://www.lordashcroft.com/2021/06/king-of-the-middle-class-radicals-that-was-grammar-school-educated-sir-keir-starmers-university-nickname/
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    NHS app shows prescriptions ordered and on order, and appointments. Not sure about other stuff. That will come I suspect whatever qualms some of us have over where this is going.
    It also stops one ordering prescriptions too early, and therefore building up potential waste.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    Almost undoubtedly I should think. Although not given to 1984 think I'm afraid I fake it with the covid app, I just wave a phone at the QR code but don't let it register. Nobody notices or minds.
    That's what my wife does but I'm such a law-abiding puss I'd feel physically sick with guilt if I did that.
    I am old enough to do a convincing "Did it not work? Never could get the hang of these newfangled contraptions" act, if challenged.
  • Options
    StockyStocky Posts: 9,719
    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    Either the NHS App or the tatty card, I think. Unless you persuade your GP to write a letter.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    A year ago you said there'd be a border him the Irish Sea - and I quote you "over my dead body" - and here we both are, there is a border in the Irish Sea. Were you lying when you said no border or did you not understand the treaty you signed over Brexit? https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1403732125640183812
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Apparently one of the issues for France with their new rules for travelling there is that they want to prioritise vaccinated people, and particularly Americans, but there are few good ways for Americans to prove their vaccinated status (it's bits of card etc basically). This is the reason why the French still ask for proof of a negative test in addition to the vaccine status.
  • Options
    guybrushguybrush Posts: 237
    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    Almost undoubtedly I should think. Although not given to 1984 think I'm afraid I fake it with the covid app, I just wave a phone at the QR code but don't let it register. Nobody notices or minds.
    That's what my wife does but I'm such a law-abiding puss I'd feel physically sick with guilt if I did that.
    Yup, I do the same in the rare event the staff go through the motions of asking me to scan it. Purely performative.

    I think Max is maybe being a little premature in planning his exit, but I'm in a similar demographic (30s, professional, mobile) and will certainly be thinking along similar lines if restrictions haven't been removed by the winter.
  • Options
    FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,047

    Taz said:

    FPT:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now
    "Our family's always been Labour, they're the party of the working class."

    I'm sure there is an equivalent Conservative mentality in parts of the South.
    I think we need to be careful here. It's true the cost of living may be lower in the north but it was also the case that many British regions (pre-covid) have amongst the lowest income levels in north west Europe.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    A somewhat similar experience, Mr L, to that of my 32 year old granddaughter in Leeds yesterday. Her appointment was booked but there were many, many walk-ins.
    We don't do walk ins in Scotland. These were all appointments. Just very large numbers made for the same time because the system doesn't work very well.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I've long lost my card, the NHS app is brilliant though.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Despite the small number of loons who think we can arbitrarily do what we like and the rest of the world will say "we can trust you" and sign grand new deals that are Great for GB, the intra-Irish border was always the elephant in the room.

    Whist May's deal provided a solution, it was only offered after she had torpedoed the long-term version of that solution so I can't give her as much credit as you even in hindsight.

    What makes it funniest of all is that we are arguing about our right to do what we like even as the same government pledges to not only stay aligned to the EU on standards but to increase our standards thus ensuring we remain aligned.

    There is no need for the impasse because the clown car government has enacted the May deal with regards to trade alignment. If we stopped twatting about we could have free trade next week as all the conditions are there for it.

    As the G7 has demonstrated, the rest of the world doesn't see perfidious Europeans, it sees lying Brits ripping up their own agreement. We have shown that we can't be trusted which is why the likes of America have said they expect us to start to behave if we want to be relevant to the club. The two photos the White House released say it all. Biden with his hand on Johnson's back, speaking to a small child. And Biden speaking to Macron as equals.
    It all comes down to alignment vs dynamic alignment. The latter ain’t going to happen. We’re not a satrapy
    Love, this is where reality needs to kick in. You are stuck in Life of Brian arguing for the right to have babies even though you can't have babies because you possess neither a womb nor a box.

    We ARE aligned right now. Both us and them say we will only increase our standards. So we will remain broadly aligned in the future. At whatever point that is where we or they get out of step then a fudge can be found.

    You are saying you are prepared for pain now - including trade sanctions and snubbing by our closest allies like the US - because of something that may happen in the future. We are a Sovereign Nation, and having written the EEA standards we can say we're going to maintain them and remain sovereign. Instead of the EEA dictating these standards we are choosing them.

    Isn't that enough? Or do you really want sanctions and international pariah status. What - if you don't mind me asking - is fucking Conservative about that?
    So what's stopping the Joint Committee from recognising that the UK and EU are currently aligned?

    That's what the Joint Committee is supposed to do. That the EU aren't doing their job by recognising current alignment is not a reason to commit to future alignment.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    No. The whole point of the other app is that it must be anonymous and Apple/Google won't allow short circuits to get around that.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    On the Scotland post-vaccine bit - this website suggests what to do, although not tried it yet after only one jab so far.

    https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997
    Stocky said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    Either the NHS App or the tatty card, I think. Unless you persuade your GP to write a letter.
    Unless you pay your GP to write a letter.

    Fixed it for you.
    Cynical, moi????
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited June 2021
    Why on earth would support for Scottish independence rise if England won the Euros? If anything that would lead to a rise in English nationalism. Support for Scottish independence would likely be highest if Scotland did very well.

    However for some Unionists the question is whether there should be 4 separate Home Nations teams in international football tournaments at all. For Effie Deans for example 'there would be no SNP today if the first “international” match between England and Scotland in 1872 had never taken place.'

    As Deans argues Scotland is not an independent state and should not have its own team therefore. 'The criterion for members of Fifa is being a sovereign state with wide diplomatic recognition. In 2016 Fifa defined a country as "an independent state recognized by the international community". But Scotland is not an independent state, precisely because we rejected the chance to become one in 2014. Having explicitly done so it would have been logical for the Scottish Football Association to have disbanded just as the West German one did.'

    She concludes we should therefore unite the 4 teams into 1 UK team much as East and West Germany united into 1 German team after unification and even argues the EU could follow suit. 'Just as the British Government has finally seen the sense of ceasing to refer to the United Kingdom as four nations, because this only helps the separatists, so it should do what Germany did in 1990. It should unite our football teams. If the EU is serious about unification, it should do the same.'

    https://www.effiedeans.com/2021/06/this-is-not-international-football.html
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    FF43 said:

    Two points on Northern Ireland.

    Boris Johnson chose no GB mainland alignment with the EU over avoiding a border in the Irish Sea. It remains his choice today. Theresa May prioritised the integrity of the United Kingdom and was pushed out. I was astonished that Johnson negotiated this deal, but it does get that clean break which may be the driver of his Brexit success, such as it is.

    The point is, Johnson is utterly disingenuous when he says he won't others split his country. He did it himself, quite consciously.

    People here asking what is the solution for Northern Ireland? It may be the Protocol. No-one likes it but it is better than one other option for all parties.

    For Ireland and most people in Northern Ireland (whose opinions seem to be the last to be considered), it is better than a hard border in the Island. For Ireland it is also better than diverging from the Single Market. For the UK government it is better than GB mainland alignment with the EU, as I have just said. For the EU it is better than compromising the external borders of its Single Market.

    For the DUP, it is a bit more complicated. In principle they need Northern Ireland to be a success, because its a safe harbour that they care about and no-one else does. Don't screw it up. Problem is, they have been screwing it up bigtime recently and are doing the same with the Protocol. First by supporting Brexit when they should have realised the status quo was a friend, secondly by throwing their lot in with the English nationalists surrounding Johnson who are no friends of the Union, and now again with the Protocol.

    Very good post. Should be read by everyone arguing over the issue.

    A border in the Irish sea may be the 'best' solution but it shouldn't have been disingenuously imposed on NI in the way it was.
    This is i think a nuance that many miss when they insist that the Govt implement the protocol in full "because they signed up to it". I think that Johnson would be absolutely fine with implementing the NI protocol in full. It doesn't really matter to the UK Government if there are difficulties getting goods to NI. The problem is that for the Northern Irish it obviously does. And however much the UK Government would like to ignore this, they can't. Especially because it is increasingly causing political tensions in (N)Ireland itself. So they aren't looking for alternatives because they need or want it politically. But it because it is seriously endangering peace in Northern Ireland.

    You can say they "should have thought of that before". But with no good options they picked the one that suited them best politically. But if eg. the US are serious about their priority being peace in Northern Ireland, rather than trade difficulties for the EU, then there is presumably a strong chance they will ultimately side with the UK position. If that means anything. The UK have no option to budge. The EU insistence on full implementation of the Protocol is not a solution when the objections are coming from within Northern Ireland (with the UK Govt only acting as proxy to those objections).
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    A somewhat similar experience, Mr L, to that of my 32 year old granddaughter in Leeds yesterday. Her appointment was booked but there were many, many walk-ins.
    We don't do walk ins in Scotland. These were all appointments. Just very large numbers made for the same time because the system doesn't work very well.
    Sounds worse organised than walk-ins, TBH.
    Glad you've completed the course, though. You'll feel better soon, I'm sure; I was a bit 'off' the day after, but was OK the next day.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,956
    All those rending their garments at some Macron reported offence, let me remind you that the term you so successfully chose to describe your goal is 'Brexit'. BR-EXIT. Not UKexit. A term that excludes Northern Ireland. So, maybe unclench.
    https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1404000782840631300
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307

    On the Scotland post-vaccine bit - this website suggests what to do, although not tried it yet after only one jab so far.

    https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

    Note that site says:

    "You should only get your coronavirus vaccination status if you are travelling in the next 14 days. Alternative options to get your vaccination status will be available soon."


    Why can't we show our vaccinated status in pubs, clubs, football matches etc? It is clearly a deliberate policy.
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    HYUFD said:

    Why on earth would support for Scottish independence rise if England won the Euros? If anything that would lead to a rise in English nationalism. Support for Scottish independence would likely be highest if Scotland did very well.

    However for some Unionists the question is whether there should be separate Home Nations teams in international football tournaments at all. For Effie Deans for example 'there would be no SNP today if the first “international” match between England and Scotland in 1872 had never taken place.'

    As Deans argues Scotland is not an independent state and should not have its own team therefore. 'The criterion for members of Fifa is being a sovereign state with wide diplomatic recognition. In 2016 Fifa defined a country as "an independent state recognized by the international community". But Scotland is not an independent state, precisely because we rejected the chance to become one in 2014. Having explicitly done so it would have been logical for the Scottish Football Association to have disbanded just as the West German one did.'

    She concludes we should therefore unite the 4 teams into 1 UK team much as East and West Germany united into 1 German team after unification and even argues the EU could follow suit. 'Just as the British Government has finally seen the sense of ceasing to refer to the United Kingdom as four nations, because this only helps the separatists, so it should do what Germany did in 1990. It should unite our football teams. If the EU is serious about unification, it should do the same.'

    https://www.effiedeans.com/2021/06/this-is-not-international-football.html

    Would people advocating that also be advocating uniting all the individual club leagues, out of interest?
  • Options
    alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Stocky said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Stocky said:

    mwadams said:

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    The record can be seen in the NHS app (but not the Covid one, oddly). And you also get a meaningless bit of cardboard with it written on in biro.
    So the NHS App is different from the NHS Trace and Trace App?

    If you have the NHS App, showing vaccination history, does it show any other health history and is it linked in any way to the NHS Track and Trace App?

    It shows your entire NHS records, lets you order prescriptions, etc. Not linked to covid app.
    Could it sneakily be linked to the other App, either in the background now or in the future?
    No. The whole point of the other app is that it must be anonymous and Apple/Google won't allow short circuits to get around that.
    No, you are confusing the bluetooth proximity feature (Apple/Google) = anonymous, and the track and trace bit using QR codes = not anonymous (or i'm not sure - it at least gives the NHS track and trace team your phone details).

    But to the extent that the Covid app is not anonymous, i don't see why there would be any purpose in linking to the NHS app. What reason would there be for doing so?
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,761
    isam said:

    ‘King of the Middle Class Radicals’

    Lord Ashcroft has written a biography of Sir Keir, ‘Red Knight’, and the Labour leader isn’t happy about it. As it questions the working class credentials he likes to talk about, and reveals he lets people think he was the inspiration for Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones when the author has confirmed he wasn’t, I’m not surprised.

    “Sir Keir did not want this story to be written. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that he actively obstructed it.

    While I am the first to accept that everybody is entitled to a private life, I also believe that any politician who presents themselves to the country as the Prime Minister-in-waiting should have a skin thick enough to be untroubled about a study of their character.

    By having such a prickly reaction to my decision to write his story, Sir Keir has arguably shown more of himself than he perhaps realised.”

    https://www.lordashcroft.com/2021/06/king-of-the-middle-class-radicals-that-was-grammar-school-educated-sir-keir-starmers-university-nickname/

    Enough of this people lying about their class!! We should all get given a number between 0 (very lower class) and 100 (HMQ) at birth, which should form part of our name and digital ID. Education, income, wealth and lifestyle can each move you up or down but only by 15 each. Anyone giving a false number is guilty of class fraud and off to the gulag with them.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091

    Taz said:

    FPT:

    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now
    "Our family's always been Labour, they're the party of the working class."

    I'm sure there is an equivalent Conservative mentality in parts of the South.
    I think we need to be careful here. It's true the cost of living may be lower in the north but it was also the case that many British regions (pre-covid) have amongst the lowest income levels in north west Europe.
    I'm not recommending life in an inner urban shithole anywhere in the north.

    But those aren't the places which are trending Conservative.
  • Options
    squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,355

    DavidL said:

    alex_ said:

    DavidL said:

    I went for my second vaccine yesterday. I had rearranged it on the internet because I could not make the original appointment. As had a serious chunk of Dundee, apparently. There were more than 150 people queuing outside the Caird Hall where the vaccines were being administered. It took just over an hour to get to the door and another 30 minutes to have the jab inside. Some of the staff were muttering about something going wrong with the booking system, again. I did see one or two people just leave but the vast majority stood in line patiently. Much more mixed crowd this time, a lot of young people plus some old fogies like me back for the second jab.

    I had a pretty rough night, hot and sore and feel somewhat less than 80% this morning but I am glad and relieved to have this done. A couple of weeks now and I will be safe. No certificates issued yesterday. Apparently an online app is "being thought about". Difficult to see how we get freedom for the vaccinated when we cannot establish who they are.

    What on earth is the Scottish Government playing at? Does it really just come down to a refusal to just buy into the UK system? Are there irreconcilable compatability issues? Or what? I guess right now double vaccinated Scots don't currently have the ability to travel to France (or other countries requiring proof of vaccine on entry), even if they wanted to?
    I am now double vaccinated. I have no evidence of that I can produce of that fact. Its almost as if Nicola is keen to justify keeping her petty controls of our social lives by not letting the system work. What do you get in England?
    I have a little card with the dates of vaccination and batch numbers, but I doubt it’ll impress at passport control.
    The could spot an antivaccer a mile off..
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    forget about herd immunity for the moment... we're not there yet

    BUT We'll have 30 million adults fully vaccinated in a few days.

    https://www.local.gov.uk/parliament/briefings-and-responses/briefing-vaccine-prioritisation

    11. It will likely take until late spring 2021 to offer the first dose of vaccination to the JCVI priority groups 1 to 9, with estimated cover of around 27 million people in England and 32 million people across the UK.

    Are there any adults in groups 1 - 9 who won't have had the opportunity to be double vaxxed by June 20th ?!
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,951

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    There is a simple solution. UK standards are EU standards cos we wrote them. UK standards are going to increase. So we are aligned and will remain aligned. We can have free trade tomorrow but we won't because that would be for the UK and EU to state the fact that we are aligned.

    Johnson can't have that. So instead we will have trade sanctions due to the non-compliance of the UK which is compliant. Its so stupid, macho posturing instead of realpolitik. When the UK doesn't stick to its word and to agreements signed months ago there is little incentive for other parties to waste more time engaging with us when we will just trash that agreement as well.

    The UK are acting like twats. As the US were. Biden is telling the G7 "America is back" in that it is now behaving and is sorry. Until we stop twatting about and say sorry, we will have no friends and no allies on this one. It is on us to compromise from our current position not them. If the deal doesn't work then its status quo ante time.
    This is, of course, bullshit.

    The question is not whether we are currently aligned, nor whether we are intent on improving our standards. It is that the EU want us to align with whatever new standards they chose to adopt in the future. Of course we are aligned now. But that does not mean we should remain aligned with whatever bollocks the EU come s up with in a year or a decades' time.

    It is the EU and its apologists who are behaving like twats and making Johnson look reasonable. And given how much of a twat Johnson already is, that is some going.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,249
    isam said:

    ‘King of the Middle Class Radicals’

    Lord Ashcroft has written a biography of Sir Keir, ‘Red Knight’, and the Labour leader isn’t happy about it. As it questions the working class credentials he likes to talk about, and reveals he lets people think he was the inspiration for Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones when the author has confirmed he wasn’t, I’m not surprised.

    “Sir Keir did not want this story to be written. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that he actively obstructed it.

    While I am the first to accept that everybody is entitled to a private life, I also believe that any politician who presents themselves to the country as the Prime Minister-in-waiting should have a skin thick enough to be untroubled about a study of their character.

    By having such a prickly reaction to my decision to write his story, Sir Keir has arguably shown more of himself than he perhaps realised.”

    https://www.lordashcroft.com/2021/06/king-of-the-middle-class-radicals-that-was-grammar-school-educated-sir-keir-starmers-university-nickname/

    I’m not surprised anyone would refuse to cooperate with Cashcroft after Pig gate.

    I am more than a bit surprised anyone would publish it.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,856
    edited June 2021
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now

    Certainly my experience of Grimsby - another of those supposedly awful places that's full of nice houses and comfortably off people, and which has also recently given Labour the heave-ho.
    For me, it was 30 years ago when I was doing my tour of British racecourses and I went to Sedgefield. I imagined a grimy mining town, a bit like South Wales, but it was nothing like it. Rural and some beautiful views and Bishop Auckland was delightful.

    The same is true down here - I would imagine those who don't know might assume places like St Just, Hayle and Camborne in Cornwall would be pretty little seaside towns (like St Ives) - they aren't.

    The reality of England, let alone Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, is it overturns our assumptions and pre-conceptions and rightly so. It is so much more varied and nuanced and complex than lazy writers or thinkers make it - I do wonder if television representations of places like London, Manchester or rural Yorkshire in soaps have perpetuated and deepened these misconceptions.

    Albert Square is not real - there is nowhere in London I can think of that is anything like it.
    Albert Square was inspired by Fassett Square, E8.
    Houses now priced at £1.4m

    https://www.zoopla.co.uk/for-sale/details/58778752/?search_identifier=91ae5c89603ab223bdba50013ba0671b

  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Stocky said:

    Leon said:
    Its bollox and we know its bollox from the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees.
    Yes, we can all see that, but we aren't making the decisions. Clown Shoes is making the decisions, and he'll shit himself and do whatever the Susan Michie brigade demands of him.
    I flirted with this idea a year ago but got ridiculed, but I'll risk floating it again: is there a hidden agenda by some people, who regretfully now have power, to hobble liberal democracy itself?
    I worry deeply, although Dr (Prof.?) John Lee (retired pathologist) still thinks it's mostly mass hysteria.

    I spend a bit of time at 'the other place' reading critiques of the official line
    https://lockdownsceptics.org/2021/06/13/claims-the-indian-variant-is-hyper-transmissible-are-nonsense-heres-the-graph-that-proves-it/#comments

    which if conducted carefully usually show that the official claims are lies & damned lies.

    The recent change from counting *deaths with COVID plus deaths of COVID* to only counting *deaths from COVID* seems to be designed to distort the figures. There's no proposal to make this retrospective, back to spring 2020, because that might be very embarrassing for the govt.

    The UK seems the oddest one out of all countries but Ireland & Canada are behaving not dissimilarly. Look on UK govt website for mentions of 'partnership with WEF', '4th Industrial Revolution'. Digital IDs are going through, after a derisory consultation of <2 weeks (I couldn't get the website submitting my comments to work properly ... how ironic).
  • Options
    solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,623
    DavidL said:

    On the Scotland post-vaccine bit - this website suggests what to do, although not tried it yet after only one jab so far.

    https://www.nhsinform.scot/covid-19-vaccine/after-your-vaccine/get-a-record-of-your-coronavirus-covid-19-vaccination-status

    Note that site says:

    "You should only get your coronavirus vaccination status if you are travelling in the next 14 days. Alternative options to get your vaccination status will be available soon."


    Why can't we show our vaccinated status in pubs, clubs, football matches etc? It is clearly a deliberate policy.
    Ah, fair enough, I didn't realise it was qualified in that way.
  • Options
    PhilPhil Posts: 1,941
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
    Things are not proceeding optimally. I had hoped once we actually left the clear, obvious mutual self interest of cooperation would prevail but it is at best a mixed bag with more emphasis on pomposity and grandstanding than progress. I would say that this is mainly the French and there is some hope that the example of scientific cooperation where many countries told them to calm down and behave might become more common but that is by no means certain.

    What I am seeing on both sides in many cases is a hardening of attitudes. A lot of people I speak to, even those that voted remain, are now very relieved that we have left. It seems likely to me that EU exports to the UK are going to take a very serious hit. We are looking for our own path, particularly through the TPP. The EU don't like that we are no longer supplicants and are playing hard ball.

    Sadly, they have plenty of opportunities to do so because the NI protocol was simply never going to work. It was not so much a sticking plaster as a convenient lie and the government's lies are now being exposed. It is uncomfortable.
    Visible from space category of prediction, but agree things have turned out largely as I expected them to.
    It occurs to me that the good thing about the Johnson deal from the government’s POV was not that it solved any of the inherent paradoxes of Brexit - the iron triangle remains in place after all - but rather that it enabled the government to blame the consequences of their failing to keep to the terms on the EU, who inevitably be placed in the position of having to enforce consequences for breaking it’s terms if the government failed to keep to them.

    Had the government been honest about their intentions from the outset, they would have been forced to sign a different deal. “Oh no, the terrible EU is being mean & refusing to be pragmatic about things” is /so/ much easier to sell to an electorate that wants to believe it than “this is the inevitable consequence of the oven ready deal we sold you so enthusiastically”.

    It’s entirely in keeping with Johnson’s character to sign a deal that he had no intention of keeping. Being able to spin the consequences of failing to keep to the terms as being the fault of the other party is a neat political trick though; we’ll have to see whether it works out.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011
    edited June 2021

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.
    I think, and Mr HYUFD will have the polling, that probably leaves the UK with County Antrim, part of Belfast and some territory around it.
    Unionists still win more votes than Nationalists in Northern Ireland so at the moment it is not an issue but yes obviously you could eventually repartition Northern Ireland so that DUP and Unionist dominated Antrim, North Down and East Londonderry and East Belfast stayed in the UK and Sinn Fein and Nationalist dominated Fermanagh, Tyrone and Armagh, South Down and Derry and West Belfast united with the Republic
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    There is a simple solution. UK standards are EU standards cos we wrote them. UK standards are going to increase. So we are aligned and will remain aligned. We can have free trade tomorrow but we won't because that would be for the UK and EU to state the fact that we are aligned.

    Johnson can't have that. So instead we will have trade sanctions due to the non-compliance of the UK which is compliant. Its so stupid, macho posturing instead of realpolitik. When the UK doesn't stick to its word and to agreements signed months ago there is little incentive for other parties to waste more time engaging with us when we will just trash that agreement as well.

    The UK are acting like twats. As the US were. Biden is telling the G7 "America is back" in that it is now behaving and is sorry. Until we stop twatting about and say sorry, we will have no friends and no allies on this one. It is on us to compromise from our current position not them. If the deal doesn't work then its status quo ante time.
    This is, of course, bullshit.

    The question is not whether we are currently aligned, nor whether we are intent on improving our standards. It is that the EU want us to align with whatever new standards they chose to adopt in the future. Of course we are aligned now. But that does not mean we should remain aligned with whatever bollocks the EU come s up with in a year or a decades' time.

    It is the EU and its apologists who are behaving like twats and making Johnson look reasonable. And given how much of a twat Johnson already is, that is some going.
    Wasn't the UK heavily involved in writing the food and farming standards documents.
  • Options
    noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 20,761
    Pulpstar said:

    forget about herd immunity for the moment... we're not there yet

    BUT We'll have 30 million adults fully vaccinated in a few days.

    https://www.local.gov.uk/parliament/briefings-and-responses/briefing-vaccine-prioritisation

    11. It will likely take until late spring 2021 to offer the first dose of vaccination to the JCVI priority groups 1 to 9, with estimated cover of around 27 million people in England and 32 million people across the UK.

    Are there any adults in groups 1 - 9 who won't have had the opportunity to be double vaxxed by June 20th ?!

    No, but its written in early February when they did not know this and presumably chose a cautious date.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,307
    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
    Things are not proceeding optimally. I had hoped once we actually left the clear, obvious mutual self interest of cooperation would prevail but it is at best a mixed bag with more emphasis on pomposity and grandstanding than progress. I would say that this is mainly the French and there is some hope that the example of scientific cooperation where many countries told them to calm down and behave might become more common but that is by no means certain.

    What I am seeing on both sides in many cases is a hardening of attitudes. A lot of people I speak to, even those that voted remain, are now very relieved that we have left. It seems likely to me that EU exports to the UK are going to take a very serious hit. We are looking for our own path, particularly through the TPP. The EU don't like that we are no longer supplicants and are playing hard ball.

    Sadly, they have plenty of opportunities to do so because the NI protocol was simply never going to work. It was not so much a sticking plaster as a convenient lie and the government's lies are now being exposed. It is uncomfortable.
    Visible from space category of prediction, but agree things have turned out largely as I expected them to.
    It occurs to me that the good thing about the Johnson deal from the government’s POV was not that it solved any of the inherent paradoxes of Brexit - the iron triangle remains in place after all - but rather that it enabled the government to blame the consequences of their failing to keep to the terms on the EU, who inevitably be placed in the position of having to enforce consequences for breaking it’s terms if the government failed to keep to them.

    Had the government been honest about their intentions from the outset, they would have been forced to sign a different deal. “Oh no, the terrible EU is being mean & refusing to be pragmatic about things” is /so/ much easier to sell to an electorate that wants to believe it than “this is the inevitable consequence of the oven ready deal we sold you so enthusiastically”.

    It’s entirely in keeping with Johnson’s character to sign a deal that he had no intention of keeping. Being able to spin the consequences of failing to keep to the terms as being the fault of the other party is a neat political trick though; we’ll have to see whether it works out.
    I agree with this completely. The deal that worked was May's deal but the Commons voted it down, repeatedly. It had its own problems and drawbacks of course, not least in our freedom of maneuver, but it worked for NI.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,951

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    There is a simple solution. UK standards are EU standards cos we wrote them. UK standards are going to increase. So we are aligned and will remain aligned. We can have free trade tomorrow but we won't because that would be for the UK and EU to state the fact that we are aligned.

    Johnson can't have that. So instead we will have trade sanctions due to the non-compliance of the UK which is compliant. Its so stupid, macho posturing instead of realpolitik. When the UK doesn't stick to its word and to agreements signed months ago there is little incentive for other parties to waste more time engaging with us when we will just trash that agreement as well.

    The UK are acting like twats. As the US were. Biden is telling the G7 "America is back" in that it is now behaving and is sorry. Until we stop twatting about and say sorry, we will have no friends and no allies on this one. It is on us to compromise from our current position not them. If the deal doesn't work then its status quo ante time.
    This is, of course, bullshit.

    The question is not whether we are currently aligned, nor whether we are intent on improving our standards. It is that the EU want us to align with whatever new standards they chose to adopt in the future. Of course we are aligned now. But that does not mean we should remain aligned with whatever bollocks the EU come s up with in a year or a decades' time.

    It is the EU and its apologists who are behaving like twats and making Johnson look reasonable. And given how much of a twat Johnson already is, that is some going.
    Wasn't the UK heavily involved in writing the food and farming standards documents.
    Absolutely and, as I am sure Nick P will confirm, in some areas we were and are well ahead of the EU in matters such as animal welfare. The issue is alignment in the future as either side chooses to change those standards.

  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,339
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    ‘King of the Middle Class Radicals’

    Lord Ashcroft has written a biography of Sir Keir, ‘Red Knight’, and the Labour leader isn’t happy about it. As it questions the working class credentials he likes to talk about, and reveals he lets people think he was the inspiration for Mark Darcy in Bridget Jones when the author has confirmed he wasn’t, I’m not surprised.

    “Sir Keir did not want this story to be written. Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that he actively obstructed it.

    While I am the first to accept that everybody is entitled to a private life, I also believe that any politician who presents themselves to the country as the Prime Minister-in-waiting should have a skin thick enough to be untroubled about a study of their character.

    By having such a prickly reaction to my decision to write his story, Sir Keir has arguably shown more of himself than he perhaps realised.”

    https://www.lordashcroft.com/2021/06/king-of-the-middle-class-radicals-that-was-grammar-school-educated-sir-keir-starmers-university-nickname/

    I’m not surprised anyone would refuse to cooperate with Cashcroft after Pig gate.

    I am more than a bit surprised anyone would publish it.
    He makes a meal out of the single point in what seems otherwise a fairly sympathetic biography. But I dobn't think he's entitled to draw any conclusions from Keir not being keen on a Tory peer writing an authorised biography - Keir would have been daft to agree.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,011

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
    No it most certainly is not 'inevitable.' For goodness sake, Unionist parties won more votes than Nationalist parties on the Holyrood constituency vote only last month
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,997
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.
    I think, and Mr HYUFD will have the polling, that probably leaves the UK with County Antrim, part of Belfast and some territory around it.
    Unionists still win more votes than Nationalists in Northern Ireland so at the moment it is not an issue but yes obviously you could eventually repartition Northern Ireland so that DUP and Unionist dominated Antrim, North Down and East Londonderry and East Belfast stayed in the UK and Sinn Fein and Nationalist dominated Fermanagh, Tyrone and Armagh, South Down and Derry and West Belfast united with the Republic
    Actually, apart from Antrim and possibly Down most constituencies seem to be fairly evenly divided.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Leon said:
    Its bollox and we know its bollox from the data from Bolton, Blackburn, Bedfordshire and Kirklees.
    Blackburn cases are still rising.
    On complete data (i.e. The 7th) Kirklees has just had it's highest ever single day cases since February.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,071
    Phil said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
    They never thought the UK would leave. Until it did.

    Cameron told them that he would win his referendum easily so they didn't think they had to give him anything (not that he bothered asking).

    Then after the referendum they convinced themselves that it would be ignored one way or another - after all that was what had happened every time previously a referendum had produced a result they didn't like.

    And throughout they were being told by their friends and 'experts' what the mood was in the 'Islington wine bar' as if that was representative of the country as a whole.

    But it wasn't the Islington wine bar where the 2019 general election was decided but the Grimsby chip shop.
    Things are not proceeding optimally. I had hoped once we actually left the clear, obvious mutual self interest of cooperation would prevail but it is at best a mixed bag with more emphasis on pomposity and grandstanding than progress. I would say that this is mainly the French and there is some hope that the example of scientific cooperation where many countries told them to calm down and behave might become more common but that is by no means certain.

    What I am seeing on both sides in many cases is a hardening of attitudes. A lot of people I speak to, even those that voted remain, are now very relieved that we have left. It seems likely to me that EU exports to the UK are going to take a very serious hit. We are looking for our own path, particularly through the TPP. The EU don't like that we are no longer supplicants and are playing hard ball.

    Sadly, they have plenty of opportunities to do so because the NI protocol was simply never going to work. It was not so much a sticking plaster as a convenient lie and the government's lies are now being exposed. It is uncomfortable.
    Visible from space category of prediction, but agree things have turned out largely as I expected them to.
    It occurs to me that the good thing about the Johnson deal from the government’s POV was not that it solved any of the inherent paradoxes of Brexit - the iron triangle remains in place after all - but rather that it enabled the government to blame the consequences of their failing to keep to the terms on the EU, who inevitably be placed in the position of having to enforce consequences for breaking it’s terms if the government failed to keep to them.

    Had the government been honest about their intentions from the outset, they would have been forced to sign a different deal. “Oh no, the terrible EU is being mean & refusing to be pragmatic about things” is /so/ much easier to sell to an electorate that wants to believe it than “this is the inevitable consequence of the oven ready deal we sold you so enthusiastically”.

    It’s entirely in keeping with Johnson’s character to sign a deal that he had no intention of keeping. Being able to spin the consequences of failing to keep to the terms as being the fault of the other party is a neat political trick though; we’ll have to see whether it works out.
    Given that the Commission's negotiators were oh-so much more competent that the UK's, shouldn't they have understood that the Article 16 clause, which has a low bar for triggering it, could be used in this way?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,091
    stodge said:

    Taz said:


    It was the same with Hartlepool. People think of these places just as grim, poor, places with terrible housing and lots of people on benefits when the reality is there are lots of nice parts in these seats, lots of nice housing estates with high levels of ownership. To be honest you look at them and think how were they still so solidly labour until now

    Certainly my experience of Grimsby - another of those supposedly awful places that's full of nice houses and comfortably off people, and which has also recently given Labour the heave-ho.
    For me, it was 30 years ago when I was doing my tour of British racecourses and I went to Sedgefield. I imagined a grimy mining town, a bit like South Wales, but it was nothing like it. Rural and some beautiful views and Bishop Auckland was delightful.

    The same is true down here - I would imagine those who don't know might assume places like St Just, Hayle and Camborne in Cornwall would be pretty little seaside towns (like St Ives) - they aren't.

    The reality of England, let alone Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, is it overturns our assumptions and pre-conceptions and rightly so. It is so much more varied and nuanced and complex than lazy writers or thinkers make it - I do wonder if television representations of places like London, Manchester or rural Yorkshire in soaps have perpetuated and deepened these misconceptions.

    Albert Square is not real - there is nowhere in London I can think of that is anything like it.
    Isn't Albert Square somewhat more similar to Havering now than Hackney ?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,999
    HYUFD said:

    Why on earth would support for Scottish independence rise if England won the Euros? If anything that would lead to a rise in English nationalism. Support for Scottish independence would likely be highest if Scotland did very well.

    However for some Unionists the question is whether there should be 4 separate Home Nations teams in international football tournaments at all. For Effie Deans for example 'there would be no SNP today if the first “international” match between England and Scotland in 1872 had never taken place.'

    As Deans argues Scotland is not an independent state and should not have its own team therefore. 'The criterion for members of Fifa is being a sovereign state with wide diplomatic recognition. In 2016 Fifa defined a country as "an independent state recognized by the international community". But Scotland is not an independent state, precisely because we rejected the chance to become one in 2014. Having explicitly done so it would have been logical for the Scottish Football Association to have disbanded just as the West German one did.'

    She concludes we should therefore unite the 4 teams into 1 UK team much as East and West Germany united into 1 German team after unification and even argues the EU could follow suit. 'Just as the British Government has finally seen the sense of ceasing to refer to the United Kingdom as four nations, because this only helps the separatists, so it should do what Germany did in 1990. It should unite our football teams. If the EU is serious about unification, it should do the same.'

    https://www.effiedeans.com/2021/06/this-is-not-international-football.html

    Absolute crap.

    Another daft theorist who has no interest in sport.

    Football, rugby union, cricket, golf, netball, rugby league, hockey — pretty much every major team sport — are organised on a home nations basis, which is key element of rivalry in the sporting arena.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,339



    This is, of course, bullshit.

    The question is not whether we are currently aligned, nor whether we are intent on improving our standards. It is that the EU want us to align with whatever new standards they chose to adopt in the future. Of course we are aligned now. But that does not mean we should remain aligned with whatever bollocks the EU come s up with in a year or a decades' time.

    It is the EU and its apologists who are behaving like twats and making Johnson look reasonable. And given how much of a twat Johnson already is, that is some going.

    Well...my understanding is that there's an EU offer on the table to align for the present and review if we want to stop aligning at such future point, which sounds exactly the sort of fudge that ought to be acceptable. Refusing to align for now because we might want to unalign at some future date does seem to make an unnecessarily ideological point.

    The underlying issue is almost certainly GM. The EU bars it, the US is keen, Johnson isn't bothered. It will become an issue if there's a US trade deal.
This discussion has been closed.