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Something to watch over the next few weeks? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,167
edited June 2021 in General
imageSomething to watch over the next few weeks? – politicalbetting.com

One of my earliest memories of Scottish independence was back in 1992 when, the then Depute Leader of the Scottish National Party, Jim Sillars lost his seat in the general election and ranted about ’90 minute patriots’ aka part time SNP voters aka how long a football match lasts.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    First!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,917
    Gadfly said:

    First!

    That's easy for you to say.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Bronze
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,217
    Three, Four
    Look at the floor
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.
  • Sandpit said:

    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.

    I'm not sure there's evidence there of SNP slowly going backwards. If anything, the latest Savanta poll has their support gaining 2% in the past fortnight.

    And you're VERY optimistic if you think England is about to lift restrictions.

    As I mentioned yesterday, I think we reached Peak Boris on the 25th May. There are a series of issues that are starting to spiral downwards and with that will go his support. The slide from his zenith may be gradual, but as he dips so I suspect desire for Scottish independence will also flow again.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Sandpit said:

    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.

    I'm not sure there's evidence there of SNP slowly going backwards. If anything, the latest Savanta poll has their support gaining 2% in the past fortnight.

    And you're VERY optimistic if you think England is about to lift restrictions.

    As I mentioned yesterday, I think we reached Peak Boris on the 25th May. There are a series of issues that are starting to spiral downwards and with that will go his support. The slide from his zenith may be gradual, but as he dips so I suspect desire for Scottish independence will also flow again.
    I think there will be more lifting than the discussion on the last thread indicated.

    The outdoor test events have been successful, and the numbers in hospital have not risen with the case numbers (because vaccines work!). It’s probably going to be everything except nightclubs on 21st. They’re building up to a full house at Wembley for the Euros final, and Silverstone have sold 150k tickets for the Grand Prix on 18th July.

    Some stats from my part of the world this morning - 80% of positive cases, and 90% of hospitalisations last month in Dubai, were of unvaccinated individuals.
    https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/nine-out-of-10-covid-19-patients-in-dubai-unvaccinated-dubai-health-official-1.1623523091706
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021
    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited June 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Sandpit said:

    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.

    The slide from his zenith may be gradual, but as he dips so I suspect desire for Scottish independence will also flow again.
    Since Boris is seen as a “recruiting sergeant” for the SNP why would his waning lead to them waxing?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    edited June 2021
    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    A remarkable 18C at 0700
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868

    Sandpit said:

    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.

    I'm not sure there's evidence there of SNP slowly going backwards. If anything, the latest Savanta poll has their support gaining 2% in the past fortnight.

    And you're VERY optimistic if you think England is about to lift restrictions.

    As I mentioned yesterday, I think we reached Peak Boris on the 25th May. There are a series of issues that are starting to spiral downwards and with that will go his support. The slide from his zenith may be gradual, but as he dips so I suspect desire for Scottish independence will also flow again.
    The PM’s vacillation rate is rising faster than the vaccination rate.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A question any MP or journalist could ask right now:
    “What share of UK vaccine stock has been discarded as not suitable for use prior to being injected? Wales reports their figures every week: 0.8% of Pfizer, 0.2% of AZ, 0.0% Moderna. What are the UK equivalent numbers?”


    https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1403954578937241603?s=20
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,868
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    It’s news to me that Dubai ever joined the EU.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Cyclefree said:

    Andy_JS said:

    alex_ said:

    That 55% of adults are double vaxxed and 55% polled say "don't loosen restrictions", tells me that a lot of people are very comfortable with life at the moment, and really don't appreciate or understand extent of the headwinds downstream...

    This interview is a must-watch. Former MP Dr Richard Taylor is the perfect example of a supporter of Zero Covid and indefinite lockdowns. Starts at 18 mins 58 secs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QACdTbI44nk
    He is a Grade A idiot, if so, even if he is a doctor.

    How long did it take for the world to get to Zero Smallpox? Centuries.

    Lockdown forever means the destruction of our economy and society.

    We have to open up, learn to live with this disease and keep on vaccinating.
    "We must be cautious"

    "We must be patient"

    "It's just a few more weeks"

    "Let's not blow all the progress we've made"

    "We need more data"

    "We need more second doses"

    "We need to vaccinate the young"

    "We need to strike a balance"

    "Cases are going up"

    "We need to be very careful"

    "What about Long Covid?"

    "The R value is higher for this variant"

    "What about the situation in Africa/Asia/on the Moon?"

    "Let's see where we are in a month"

    ***Repeats in a continuous cycle until 2177***

    PS. We've another of the public health Taliban on TV talking about masks forever now. Wibbling about possible behavioural changes rather than a straightforward Michie-style doctor's boot stamping on your face forever, but nonetheless, good grief...
    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    And another one who's searching for excuses to keep lockdown forever.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,487
    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
  • Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000

    ...
  • Cocky_cockneyCocky_cockney Posts: 760
    edited June 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    This is another careless throwaway remark. The other European nations have also endured separatist bombing campaigns and insurrections, from Bader Meinhof to Black September to ETA to Islamist extremists.

    In terms of deadliest terrorist attacks, the European mainland has suffered greatly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks

    It's fair enough to critique the EU for its mistakes on e.g. the early vaccine rollout.

    It's not fair enough to critique them when you don't know what you're talking about.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    edited June 2021

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Theresa May’s solution wasn’t leaving the EU in any meaningful sense of the term. We’d have been stuck forever in the backstop, with the EU having no incentive to negotiate while imposing more and more onerous rules just becasue they could. Anyway, it’s no longer an option, we need a solution that starts from where we are now.

    Yes, the EU’s weaponisation of Northern Ireland as a political point-scoring exercise, is the most fatuous, infantile playground approach to politics in my lifetime too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Scott_xP said:


    ...

    That’s incredibly bad taste, given last night’s incident.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
  • Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
    Which still isn't good enough for the catastrophist wing of the science brigade. It never will be. And Johnson takes their advice. So restrictions carry on for as long as he does.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    True; as my wife and I say to each other such circumstances 'this is cricket, after all!'.
    There have been century stands for the last wicket of course, and Essex once managed a double century one!
    Against Derbyshire, 1947.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    This is another careless throwaway remark. The other European nations have also endured separatist bombing campaigns and insurrections, from Bader Meinhof to Black September to ETA to Islamist extremists.

    In terms of deadliest terrorist attacks, the European mainland has suffered greatly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks

    It's fair enough to critique the EU for its mistakes on e.g. the early vaccine rollout.

    It's not fair enough to critique them when you don't know what you're talking about.
    Macron either made a silly mistake (which I don’t believe) or unwittingly revealed what he believes - that Ireland is a single country and partition is only temporary
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
    Which still isn't good enough for the catastrophist wing of the science brigade. It never will be. And Johnson takes their advice. So restrictions carry on for as long as he does.
    In a country with 85% of eligible people vaccinated twice, 80% of the cases and 90% of the hospitalisations are of the unvaccinated. And that’s with extensive use of the less efficacious Sinopharm vaccine, as well as Pfizer.

    https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/nine-out-of-10-covid-19-patients-in-dubai-unvaccinated-dubai-health-official-1.1623523091706

    U.K. needs to hold its nerve, even as cases go up there isn’t the strain on the health system that was seen in previous waves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    One for @Leon - a US intelligence officer responds to the smears against him in the recent Vanity Fair article and elsewhere about a ‘cover up’ of the lab leak theory.
    https://christopherashleyford.medium.com/the-lab-leak-inquiry-at-the-state-department-96973cff3a65
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    This is another careless throwaway remark. The other European nations have also endured separatist bombing campaigns and insurrections, from Bader Meinhof to Black September to ETA to Islamist extremists.

    In terms of deadliest terrorist attacks, the European mainland has suffered greatly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks

    It's fair enough to critique the EU for its mistakes on e.g. the early vaccine rollout.

    It's not fair enough to critique them when you don't know what you're talking about.
    Macron either made a silly mistake (which I don’t believe) or unwittingly revealed what he believes - that Ireland is a single country and partition is only temporary
    100 years is quite a long time for something to be 'temporary', but surely he's right. It's quite possible that Sinn Fein will be the biggest party in the NI Assembly and in the Republic within a very few years.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Have they found anyone willing to sign off the accounts yet?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
    Which still isn't good enough for the catastrophist wing of the science brigade. It never will be. And Johnson takes their advice. So restrictions carry on for as long as he does.
    In a country with 85% of eligible people vaccinated twice, 80% of the cases and 90% of the hospitalisations are of the unvaccinated. And that’s with extensive use of the less efficacious Sinopharm vaccine, as well as Pfizer.

    https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/nine-out-of-10-covid-19-patients-in-dubai-unvaccinated-dubai-health-official-1.1623523091706

    U.K. needs to hold its nerve, even as cases go up there isn’t the strain on the health system that was seen in previous waves.
    It won't though. The scientists will push their idiotic zero COVID, no one must die agenda and the UK never really gets its freedoms back. Boris is completely craven. He's got no spine and needs to be removed by Tory MPs asap.

    We're going to make our lockdown assessment in August. If the measures still exist then in a legal sense then we're putting our house up for sale and leaving the country. I've almost qualified for Swiss citizenship by marriage and have full residency rights there. Happily my company is happy for people to work from our Swiss outpost indefinitely too. It's not perfect but at least Switzerland will dump all of this crap. Between the two of us the government stands to lose six figures in income tax plus all of the other random taxes we pay.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The trusted trader scheme, that was envisaged as part of the Protocol, fixes 95% of the problems. The other 5% can be a dollop of good old fashioned NI fudge, with the EU pretending there’s a border in the Irish Sea, the U.K. pretending there isn’t, and dealing with issues of smuggling as they arise.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    No, OKC has the facts on his side.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    This is another careless throwaway remark. The other European nations have also endured separatist bombing campaigns and insurrections, from Bader Meinhof to Black September to ETA to Islamist extremists.

    In terms of deadliest terrorist attacks, the European mainland has suffered greatly:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Europe#Deadliest_attacks

    It's fair enough to critique the EU for its mistakes on e.g. the early vaccine rollout.

    It's not fair enough to critique them when you don't know what you're talking about.
    Macron either made a silly mistake (which I don’t believe) or unwittingly revealed what he believes - that Ireland is a single country and partition is only temporary
    100 years is quite a long time for something to be 'temporary', but surely he's right. It's quite possible that Sinn Fein will be the biggest party in the NI Assembly and in the Republic within a very few years.
    NI is part of the UK for as long as the inhabitants want to be.

    A time limited partition was rightly described by Sir Edward Carson as being “a sentence of death with a stay of execution”

    (Btw, @HYUFD I thought “Ulster will fight and Ulster will right” was Randolph Church not Carson. Sir Edward privately described that approach as “the high road to treason and despair”)
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    No, OKC has the facts on his side.
    I was criticising his conclusion not the facts.

    If Brexit hadn’t happened we wouldn’t we in this situation. Sure

    If we had stayed in the Single Market we wouldn’t be in this situation. Sure

    The British voters and government decided those were not acceptable options. Sure

    None of that means that it is the sole responsibility of the British to solve the issue. The only way to solve problems is to work collaboratively to find a resolution that is acceptable to all the stakeholders.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
    TL;DR

    It’s not my fault so I don’t care if the problem escalates.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
    TL;DR

    It’s not my fault so I don’t care if the problem escalates.
    That does seem to be our PM’s attitude.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited June 2021
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Johnson: “It’s the prime duty of the UK government to uphold the territorial integrity of the United Kingdom.”*

    *except when I wanted to ‘get #brexit done’ to win an election. Then I happily sacrificed it, as my predecessor said no PM ever could.


    https://on.ft.com/3wj78vq https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1403976150746030080/photo/1
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
    Which still isn't good enough for the catastrophist wing of the science brigade. It never will be. And Johnson takes their advice. So restrictions carry on for as long as he does.
    In a country with 85% of eligible people vaccinated twice, 80% of the cases and 90% of the hospitalisations are of the unvaccinated. And that’s with extensive use of the less efficacious Sinopharm vaccine, as well as Pfizer.

    https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/nine-out-of-10-covid-19-patients-in-dubai-unvaccinated-dubai-health-official-1.1623523091706

    U.K. needs to hold its nerve, even as cases go up there isn’t the strain on the health system that was seen in previous waves.
    It won't though. The scientists will push their idiotic zero COVID, no one must die agenda and the UK never really gets its freedoms back. Boris is completely craven. He's got no spine and needs to be removed by Tory MPs asap.

    We're going to make our lockdown assessment in August. If the measures still exist then in a legal sense then we're putting our house up for sale and leaving the country. I've almost qualified for Swiss citizenship by marriage and have full residency rights there. Happily my company is happy for people to work from our Swiss outpost indefinitely too. It's not perfect but at least Switzerland will dump all of this crap. Between the two of us the government stands to lose six figures in income tax plus all of the other random taxes we pay.
    Good idea. Not lockdown that annoys me, so much as the removal of ancient liberties through 2x decades of illiberal (anti terrorism, banishment of citizenship, equality laws) of which the endless coronavirus rules are the final crystallising moment.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Sandpit said:

    Good to see the SNP slowly going backwards.

    Wait until the remaining restrictions are lifted in England but kept in Scotland, fingers crossed that will make them even more unpopular.

    The SNP who just got re-elected to a 4th term with a record ever vote on a record ever turnout in a parliament electing a record number of pro-independence MSPs?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    The level of hysteria on here regarding lockdown is a thing of beauty…

  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,724
    edited June 2021
    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    I think the key question is what you consider to be the EU. Personally I think the EU is the EU, and that when you leave you leave. If you then have an agreement with the EEA (which is not the EU) then that is different. "We would never have really left" means that Norway is a member of the EU. Laughable.

    "Should the UK leave the EU?" We left. The EEA is not the EU, had an entirely separate treaty with the UK and a completely different list of member states. That hardline Brexiteers are still clueless as to the difference is staggering.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    But England is the only province of this country that never gets a say and doesn't even have its own Parliament.

    There's an obvious and huge conflict of interest between the PM of the UK, who is desperate to hold the Union together, and the people of England, many of whom don't care or actively want it to break up. We need an English government to speak up for the English people asap.
  • Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Fishing said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    But England is the only province of this country that never gets a say and doesn't even have its own Parliament.

    There's an obvious and huge conflict of interest between the PM of the UK, who is desperate to hold the Union together, and the people of England, many of whom don't care or actively want it to break up. We need an English government to speak up for the English people asap.
    Which we aren't going to get out of the UK, the consequence of which is that it becomes much more strongly in our interest that the UK be destroyed.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Despite the small number of loons who think we can arbitrarily do what we like and the rest of the world will say "we can trust you" and sign grand new deals that are Great for GB, the intra-Irish border was always the elephant in the room.

    Whist May's deal provided a solution, it was only offered after she had torpedoed the long-term version of that solution so I can't give her as much credit as you even in hindsight.

    What makes it funniest of all is that we are arguing about our right to do what we like even as the same government pledges to not only stay aligned to the EU on standards but to increase our standards thus ensuring we remain aligned.

    There is no need for the impasse because the clown car government has enacted the May deal with regards to trade alignment. If we stopped twatting about we could have free trade next week as all the conditions are there for it.

    As the G7 has demonstrated, the rest of the world doesn't see perfidious Europeans, it sees lying Brits ripping up their own agreement. We have shown that we can't be trusted which is why the likes of America have said they expect us to start to behave if we want to be relevant to the club. The two photos the White House released say it all. Biden with his hand on Johnson's back, speaking to a small child. And Biden speaking to Macron as equals.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,192
    Significant and consequential sea level rise no longer appears to be a not in our lifetime problem.
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/2021/06/11/pine-island-ice-shelf-collapse/
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:



    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    darkage said:

    MaxPB said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    If vaccines were rubbish, we’d be seeing hospitalisations rise with cases. We’re not seeing that, hospital numbers are only up around 10% week on week. Because vaccines work.

    Israel and UAE confirm tha vaccines work, with the vast majority in hospital being vaccine refuseniks.
    Which still isn't good enough for the catastrophist wing of the science brigade. It never will be. And Johnson takes their advice. So restrictions carry on for as long as he does.
    In a country with 85% of eligible people vaccinated twice, 80% of the cases and 90% of the hospitalisations are of the unvaccinated. And that’s with extensive use of the less efficacious Sinopharm vaccine, as well as Pfizer.

    https://gulfnews.com/uae/health/nine-out-of-10-covid-19-patients-in-dubai-unvaccinated-dubai-health-official-1.1623523091706

    U.K. needs to hold its nerve, even as cases go up there isn’t the strain on the health system that was seen in previous waves.
    It won't though. The scientists will push their idiotic zero COVID, no one must die agenda and the UK never really gets its freedoms back. Boris is completely craven. He's got no spine and needs to be removed by Tory MPs asap.

    We're going to make our lockdown assessment in August. If the measures still exist then in a legal sense then we're putting our house up for sale and leaving the country. I've almost qualified for Swiss citizenship by marriage and have full residency rights there. Happily my company is happy for people to work from our Swiss outpost indefinitely too. It's not perfect but at least Switzerland will dump all of this crap. Between the two of us the government stands to lose six figures in income tax plus all of the other random taxes we pay.
    Good idea. Not lockdown that annoys me, so much as the removal of ancient liberties through 2x decades of illiberal (anti terrorism, banishment of citizenship, equality laws) of which the endless coronavirus rules are the final crystallising moment.
    Switzerland has its own issues with regard to civil liberties and political correctness. It also has an incredibly, surrealy high cost of living, and very cold winters.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,419
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
    Willy and Willis against the mighty Windies in 1980 saving the test at the Oval. Watched it on the telly. Great rearguard action.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Dura_Ace said:

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.

    And if they don't want a border?
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
    How it feels and what may transpire are two different things. Nothing is inevitable - and the reason I think we’re in a very bizarre holding pattern is because both sides of the Indy argument know it is likely their final shot.

    Coupled with that - the challenges and arguments the SNP have to circle are, to be frank, difficult.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    edited June 2021
    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    There is a simple solution. UK standards are EU standards cos we wrote them. UK standards are going to increase. So we are aligned and will remain aligned. We can have free trade tomorrow but we won't because that would be for the UK and EU to state the fact that we are aligned.

    Johnson can't have that. So instead we will have trade sanctions due to the non-compliance of the UK which is compliant. Its so stupid, macho posturing instead of realpolitik. When the UK doesn't stick to its word and to agreements signed months ago there is little incentive for other parties to waste more time engaging with us when we will just trash that agreement as well.

    The UK are acting like twats. As the US were. Biden is telling the G7 "America is back" in that it is now behaving and is sorry. Until we stop twatting about and say sorry, we will have no friends and no allies on this one. It is on us to compromise from our current position not them. If the deal doesn't work then its status quo ante time.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.

    And if they don't want a border?
    Reunification
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,533

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    A united Ireland is a highly desirable outcome.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:



    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.
    I think, and Mr HYUFD will have the polling, that probably leaves the UK with County Antrim, part of Belfast and some territory around it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,585
    edited June 2021

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    I remember watching James Anderson bat for a long time in game against Sri Lanka at Headingley about 6 years ago IIRC in order to save the game. He managed to get within 2 balls of saving the match before being caught off a short-pitched ball by a close-in fielder. Maybe he could do the same thing again today and get the NZ target over 100.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Referendum in the 6 counties to see where the people would prefer to have their border.

    And if they don't want a border?
    There will only be two option on the referendum: border in the Irish Sea or border between the 26 and 6 counties.

    Though I am no (small d) democrat this would have a legitimacy that would help the UK or EU choke down the result and consequences depending on who won/lost.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    tlg86 said:

    Dr Deepti Gurdasani on Sky News - it really makes me angry as she was questioning the effectiveness of the vaccines.

    If the vaccines are rubbish, then it’s game over and we need to suck it up and get on with it.

    The zero covidiots hate the vaccine.

    They are the other side of the same coin as the anti-vaxxers.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,028
    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    A united Ireland is a highly desirable outcome.

    And one that the ROI don’t want to foot the bill for…
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
    If the UK and EEA are not aligned on standards then a border must go somewhere. Even if the UK wants to break WTO rules and not check good coming from the EEA only the same isn't true from the other side. Partition of UK hasn't worked, intra-Irish border is illegal and would prompt harsh repercussions from America, removal of RoI from the EEA won't be accepted by either of them. Or finally we have the fantasy "techno-border" where we have an invisible hard border on Ireland that no other border in the world has because the technology doesn't exist yet.

    There is Good News. As the UK and EEA share standards and the UK is pledged to only raise standards and not lower them, the UK and EEA are aligned. So the 3rd country status we demanded and the checks we insisted on are not required. All that is needed is for the UK and EEA to agree that aligned standards are aligned, say that should in future there be any disagreement they will need to review the agreement, and simply drop the bullshit.

    We don't do that. The UK government has told the Blue Wall that we are now free, to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded and and we wanna have a good time, we wanna have a party. To have to admit that the pudding was over-egged, we remain aligned to EEA standards and that is in our interests would not go down well.

    So instead we will have sanctions placed on us. Biden will offer to act as intermediary and will tell us that when we sign international treaties it is best practice to stick to them.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
    TL;DR

    It’s not my fault so I don’t care if the problem escalates.
    That does seem to be our PM’s attitude.
    He’s trying for a solution. The protocol isn’t working, the EU proposal is unacceptable so his team is looking for an alternative

  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,237
    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.

    I'm not saying that the EU right in their calculation, but it's not totally obvious that they're wrong either.

    Of course, the one thing more frustrating than hatred is indifference.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
    One interesting consequence of the reunification of Ireland may well be the departure of hard-core Unionists to RUK, and mostly to Scotland. There they would give Scottish Unionism an electoral boost.

    This isn't the break up of Yugoslavia though. The RoI is not the backward looking isolationist Craggy Island of decades ago, it is a modern, increasingly secular European society. The rise of the Alliance Party shows that for a growing subset of NI voters it looks the way forward.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_xP said:

    Charles said:

    The only way to solve problems is to work collaboratively to find a resolution that is acceptable to all the stakeholders.

    There is no resolution that is acceptable to all the stakeholders.

    The political calculation BoZo made was which stakeholders it was in his interest to shaft.

    That calculation is not sustainable, but his objective was achieved. The choice is who to betray next.
    SPS alignment works, possibly with an automatic review after 5 years. It’s basically a glorified can kick
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    edited June 2021

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
    If the UK and EEA are not aligned on standards then a border must go somewhere. Even if the UK wants to break WTO rules and not check good coming from the EEA only the same isn't true from the other side. Partition of UK hasn't worked, intra-Irish border is illegal and would prompt harsh repercussions from America, removal of RoI from the EEA won't be accepted by either of them. Or finally we have the fantasy "techno-border" where we have an invisible hard border on Ireland that no other border in the world has because the technology doesn't exist yet.

    There is Good News. As the UK and EEA share standards and the UK is pledged to only raise standards and not lower them, the UK and EEA are aligned. So the 3rd country status we demanded and the checks we insisted on are not required. All that is needed is for the UK and EEA to agree that aligned standards are aligned, say that should in future there be any disagreement they will need to review the agreement, and simply drop the bullshit.

    We don't do that. The UK government has told the Blue Wall that we are now free, to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded and and we wanna have a good time, we wanna have a party. To have to admit that the pudding was over-egged, we remain aligned to EEA standards and that is in our interests would not go down well.

    So instead we will have sanctions placed on us. Biden will offer to act as intermediary and will tell us that when we sign international treaties it is best practice to stick to them.
    I don't think the US is very well placed to give that particular lecture. Nor are the EU, given how many of their members ignore their own treaties when they feel like it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,706
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
    TL;DR

    It’s not my fault so I don’t care if the problem escalates.
    That does seem to be our PM’s attitude.
    He’s trying for a solution. The protocol isn’t working, the EU proposal is unacceptable so his team is looking for an alternative

    The EU proposal is that we keep our word...
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,724
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
    I think my record relates to those batting at 10 and 11.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
    How it feels and what may transpire are two different things. Nothing is inevitable - and the reason I think we’re in a very bizarre holding pattern is because both sides of the Indy argument know it is likely their final shot.

    Coupled with that - the challenges and arguments the SNP have to circle are, to be frank, difficult.
    Ironically, and circling back to being on topic, the issues and problems caused by the NI border will be considerably more fraught when discussing the border between England and Scotland, were the latter to leave the UK and join the EU.

    Using the arguments the EU are currently using in NI, their only possible border between England and Scotland will be a very hard one indeed.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    A united Ireland is a highly desirable outcome.

    And one that the ROI don’t want to foot the bill for…
    Biden would sort them out with a payday loan, if he lives that long.

    There is a lot of sentimental attraction to the notion of a unified Ireland around the world. They would have a lot of friends.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    Dominic Raab says "on balance" Britain does not think killer Covid leaked from a Wuhan lab. "We think it is much more likely it jumped from animals to humans." But he calls fro full probe into it #ridge
    https://twitter.com/kateferguson4/status/1403983207012388864
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    I don't understand this argument. The Freedom of Movement in the EEA (not EU) was something we absolutely had the power to restrict. Belgium would deport people who didn't have jobs or the means to support themselves. The right to live and work is not the right to sponge. Successive UK governments failed to enact these rights - how is that the fault of the EU?

    Now that we have the rights to do what we want at the border we on one hand allow pox-laden people to fly in without even a check, and have leading Brexiteers like Tim Martin bleating that anti-foreign rhetoric encouraged by Tim Martin means that Tim Martin can't recruit enough foreign labour. Perhaps - and its only a suggestion based on the available evidence - we need the foreigners after all..
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.
    Mrs May’s deal means we would never have really left, and would now be dealing with all sorts of new rules imposed by the EU as punishment. The Protocol isn’t brilliant, but it was the only thing we could do at the time to get a deal over the line.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?

    Good morning everyone. Really summery again here.

    I'll be able to do some gardening later instead of watching the cricket!
    Deep, deep joy!

    You never know, the last wicket may put a hundred runs on and we skittle the kiwis out for 90.
    John Snow had a partnership for the 10th wicket where he and Ken Hiiggs Were 63 and 59 in a record partnership.of 124 and I watched it...
    I remember Root and Anderson putting on 200 ish a few years back.

    Looked it up, 198, Trent Bridge 2014, v India.
    A year later Trent Bridge had a 167 last wicket partnership by Hughes and Agar:

    https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/australia-tour-of-england-and-scotland-2013-531603/england-vs-australia-1st-test-566932/full-scorecard
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,000
    ‘Mistrusted’ Johnson feels full force of EU fury as Brexit wrecks G7 summit https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/13/mistrusted-johnson-feels-full-force-of-eu-fury-as-brexit-wrecks-g7-summit
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    Despite the small number of loons who think we can arbitrarily do what we like and the rest of the world will say "we can trust you" and sign grand new deals that are Great for GB, the intra-Irish border was always the elephant in the room.

    Whist May's deal provided a solution, it was only offered after she had torpedoed the long-term version of that solution so I can't give her as much credit as you even in hindsight.

    What makes it funniest of all is that we are arguing about our right to do what we like even as the same government pledges to not only stay aligned to the EU on standards but to increase our standards thus ensuring we remain aligned.

    There is no need for the impasse because the clown car government has enacted the May deal with regards to trade alignment. If we stopped twatting about we could have free trade next week as all the conditions are there for it.

    As the G7 has demonstrated, the rest of the world doesn't see perfidious Europeans, it sees lying Brits ripping up their own agreement. We have shown that we can't be trusted which is why the likes of America have said they expect us to start to behave if we want to be relevant to the club. The two photos the White House released say it all. Biden with his hand on Johnson's back, speaking to a small child. And Biden speaking to Macron as equals.
    It all comes down to alignment vs dynamic alignment. The latter ain’t going to happen. We’re not a satrapy
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,448

    algarkirk said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    He may be, but so is Boris Johnson.

    I'm afraid this is one example of things unravelling. The deal Johnson struck over Brexit is a disaster on Northern Ireland.

    And, you won't like this but it's true, Theresa May's deal was the best possible Brexit all things considered, including to save the union.

    The union in its current and historic format is finished because of Boris' Brexit. It's only a matter of time.

    What do you propose as a practical solution, to the issues in NI?
    Theresa May's solution.

    I'm afraid that if you go down this Brexit route there is only one other alternative: that Ireland unites. Johnson knew this.

    And that's the price you pay for "really" leaving, which is the most fatuous, infantile, playground approach to politics in my lifetime.
    A united Ireland is a highly desirable outcome.

    And one that the ROI don’t want to foot the bill for…
    TBH, while they like the idea, it's going to be complicated to bring about.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:



    Using the arguments the EU are currently using in NI, their only possible border between England and Scotland will be a very hard one indeed.

    That will suit both sides perfectly by the time it comes to pass. Salt levels are going to be off the scale in London and Edinburgh.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.
    I don't think they were, or even can be, that pragmatic. To them, the rules of the Single Market are what matters, and that's the only thing they are interested in. It doesn't matter if the rules make sense or not, harmonisation is what's important. And whatever the problem, the only solution is for the EU to produce more rules. It never takes a step back, otherwise people will realise how pointless it is.

    It's not just us, they have bad relations with virtually every one of their neighbours, and many of their own member states. They remind me more and more of China - annoying everybody they deal with, but not realising that the problem might just be with them rather than everybody else on the planet.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to it push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
    If the UK and EEA are not aligned on standards then a border must go somewhere. Even if the UK wants to break WTO rules and not check good coming from the EEA only the same isn't true from the other side. Partition of UK hasn't worked, intra-Irish border is illegal and would prompt harsh repercussions from America, removal of RoI from the EEA won't be accepted by either of them. Or finally we have the fantasy "techno-border" where we have an invisible hard border on Ireland that no other border in the world has because the technology doesn't exist yet.

    There is Good News. As the UK and EEA share standards and the UK is pledged to only raise standards and not lower them, the UK and EEA are aligned. So the 3rd country status we demanded and the checks we insisted on are not required. All that is needed is for the UK and EEA to agree that aligned standards are aligned, say that should in future there be any disagreement they will need to review the agreement, and simply drop the bullshit.

    We don't do that. The UK government has told the Blue Wall that we are now free, to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded and and we wanna have a good time, we wanna have a party. To have to admit that the pudding was over-egged, we remain aligned to EEA standards and that is in our interests would not go down well.

    So instead we will have sanctions placed on us. Biden will offer to act as intermediary and will tell us that when we sign international treaties it is best practice to stick to them.
    To summarise: the EEA won’t accept something that is unacceptable to them. Therefore we must accept something that is unacceptable to us?

    What is wrong with equivalence with an automatic review after 5 years?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,612
    FPT:
    Andy_JS said:

    "The London-based commentariat has convinced itself that Geordie Tory is a left-behind loser who voted for a Brexit and Boris spit-roast to express his rage at globalisation. This is only a small part of the story. For the hidden truth about Geordie Tory is that he is actually doing rather well for himself. He did not go to university (thus avoiding a pile of student debt), but quickly found a job at a local firm, and his money goes much further in the north than it would in the south. He lives in a four-bedroomed semi-detached, has a couple of cars in the drive and can rely on two sets of grandparents to chip in with child care. He zips to work or Asda in a few minutes, thinks the local school is doing an acceptable job and looks forward to his next holiday in Florida, providing the government can stop faffing about. He pities his school friends who went to university, moved down south and now either live in a crowded flat or (before the covid-19 pandemic) spent a couple of hours a day on a packed train."

    https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/06/12/a-new-version-of-essex-man-is-born-in-the-north

    Its noticeable that whenever you see a program about Conservative gains anywhere between Bolsover and Blyth its filled with 'grim up north' imagery.

    Where they should be filmed is a new housing development or a supermarket car park.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    Fishing said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
    If the UK and EEA are not aligned on standards then a border must go somewhere. Even if the UK wants to break WTO rules and not check good coming from the EEA only the same isn't true from the other side. Partition of UK hasn't worked, intra-Irish border is illegal and would prompt harsh repercussions from America, removal of RoI from the EEA won't be accepted by either of them. Or finally we have the fantasy "techno-border" where we have an invisible hard border on Ireland that no other border in the world has because the technology doesn't exist yet.

    There is Good News. As the UK and EEA share standards and the UK is pledged to only raise standards and not lower them, the UK and EEA are aligned. So the 3rd country status we demanded and the checks we insisted on are not required. All that is needed is for the UK and EEA to agree that aligned standards are aligned, say that should in future there be any disagreement they will need to review the agreement, and simply drop the bullshit.

    We don't do that. The UK government has told the Blue Wall that we are now free, to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded and and we wanna have a good time, we wanna have a party. To have to admit that the pudding was over-egged, we remain aligned to EEA standards and that is in our interests would not go down well.

    So instead we will have sanctions placed on us. Biden will offer to act as intermediary and will tell us that when we sign international treaties it is best practice to stick to them.
    I don't think the US is very well placed to give that particular lecture. Nor are the EU, given how many of their members ignore their own treaties when they feel like it.
    Politics is hypocrisy. Their point will be simple - we signed a deal and then broke it. They cannot trust us with other current and future treaties unless we make good on NI. Proposing viable alternatives to the deal that we have broken is ok, but it is for us to propose.

    We won't like it. But when our friends and allies and people we need to be amiable to sign new trade deals tell us this, we don't have the option to ignore them if we want those deals. GB (we're no longer the UK thanks to Johnson) is not Uber Alles.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    The British side was aware of the situation when our current PM announced that he had an oven-ready deal. Or really ought to have been.
    This situation is entirely of our Government's making and, given it's attitude to co-operation to anyone nearer than an ocean away, it's hardly surprising if the EU (including RoI) regard the matter as 'not their problem'.
    It's entirely down to Johnson's bluster and his habit of 'winging it'.
    TL;DR

    It’s not my fault so I don’t care if the problem escalates.
    That does seem to be our PM’s attitude.
    He’s trying for a solution. The protocol isn’t working, the EU proposal is unacceptable so his team is looking for an alternative

    The EU proposal is that we keep our word...
    And is the consequences are civil strife?

    The responsible thing to do is has a discussion with your partner and say “I’d there a better way”?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,595
    Charles said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to it push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    We have our own arse on this side of the Channel.
    https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1403781975425564675

    How is this chancer going to ‘sort it out’, and just what is his ‘understanding’ of the Province ?
    Johnson knew that his hard Brexit would sell out Northern Ireland.

    At some point this is going to break, right down the Irish Sea. It's the only route out and he knew that when he pandered to the headbangers on the right wing who wanted a pure Brexit at any cost.
    I don’t know if that’s inevitable, but it does seem quite likely.

    I’d be interested to hear practical suggestions for solving the problem which go beyond pretending it’s exclusively the fault of the EU and that they simply abandon their rules and treaties in respect of Ireland.
    I note Sandpit didn’t respond to my question, which wasn’t simply rhetorical.
    If the UK and EEA are not aligned on standards then a border must go somewhere. Even if the UK wants to break WTO rules and not check good coming from the EEA only the same isn't true from the other side. Partition of UK hasn't worked, intra-Irish border is illegal and would prompt harsh repercussions from America, removal of RoI from the EEA won't be accepted by either of them. Or finally we have the fantasy "techno-border" where we have an invisible hard border on Ireland that no other border in the world has because the technology doesn't exist yet.

    There is Good News. As the UK and EEA share standards and the UK is pledged to only raise standards and not lower them, the UK and EEA are aligned. So the 3rd country status we demanded and the checks we insisted on are not required. All that is needed is for the UK and EEA to agree that aligned standards are aligned, say that should in future there be any disagreement they will need to review the agreement, and simply drop the bullshit.

    We don't do that. The UK government has told the Blue Wall that we are now free, to do what we wanna do, and we wanna get loaded and and we wanna have a good time, we wanna have a party. To have to admit that the pudding was over-egged, we remain aligned to EEA standards and that is in our interests would not go down well.

    So instead we will have sanctions placed on us. Biden will offer to act as intermediary and will tell us that when we sign international treaties it is best practice to stick to them.
    To summarise: the EEA won’t accept something that is unacceptable to them. Therefore we must accept something that is unacceptable to us?

    What is wrong with equivalence with an automatic review after 5 years?
    Because there’s no ‘punishment’ with equivalence, so it’s unacceptable to Macron.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pagan2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Fishing said:

    HYUFD said:

    Boris Johnson was left infuriated by Macron when he suggested in their talks Northern Ireland was not part of the UK. A UK Government source tells the story below....

    https://twitter.com/benrileysmith/status/1403828667055329281?s=21

    If only Macron were actually correct. It would make life vastly easier.
    My own private solution for Northern Ireland is joint UK-ROI sovereignty or suzerainty (whatever that is).

    A condominium, but one without balloon mortgage OR toxic mold.
    The Northern Ireland problem (and the Scotland problem as well) are both insoluble whilst they're part of the UK.

    Let them both go, then the people who live there can sort their own business out.

    England and Wales can then sit down and have an adult conversation about whether or not to keep bothering with a common state.
    Absolutely not, we are better and stronger together as one United Kingdom.

    Scots decided to stay in the UK in 2014 in a once in a generation referendum and the UK government will correctly not allow the Scottish Nationalists another until a genuine generation has elapsed.

    In Northern Ireland Unionist parties still get more votes than Nationalist parties and in Antrim for example every MP is from the DUP
    Scotland may or may not be an asset but Northern Ireland is a tumour - embarassing politically and valueless economically. As the great Conservative Unionist Lord Salisbury noted, "... Ireland is our peculiar punishment, our unique affliction, among the family of nations. What crime have we committed, with what particular vice is our national character chargeable, that this chastisement should have befallen us?"
    Without Scotland we fall firmly behind France economically and militarily.

    Northern Irish Unionists are the most proud patriots in the whole UK even if sometimes a bit forcefully so, Ireland itself has been settled now with the Republic for those who wanted independence and the North for those who want to stay in the UK. Had that not occurred and Ulster Unionism been ignored then as that equally significant Unionist figure Lord Carson stated 'Ulster will fight and Ulster will be right!'
    Who cares its not a good reason to keep them as we aren't planning on invading france
    The whole point of being a Tory is to project as strong a UK as possible economically and militarily on the world stage.

    Losing Scotland and Northern Ireland would make us weaker on both counts. Particularly damaging post Brexit when having left the EU we are supposed to be projecting ourselves as 'global Britain' across the world and strong enough to stand on our own 2 feet not breaking apart
    Very few of us are tories, people voting tory as you are at frequent pains to point out doesn't make them a tory most people I think really dont care about losing NI certainly and to a lesser extent scotland. You few true tories are in a minority
    Exactly. And since somebody is so fond of shoving any old polling stats down our throats, this:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/05/28/exclusive-fifth-english-voters-oppose-scottish-independence/

    Synopsis: Only 32% of English voters surveyed opposed independence for Scotland, just 20% were strongly opposed, and more English voters now oppose bribing Scotland to stay with even more money than are in favour.

    The numbers will only turn against the Union, on both sides of the border, more and more as time progresses. The younger age groups in Scotland are strongly pro-secession, and the English are either apathetic about the survival of the Union or fed up with it. It is finished. Just a matter of time. And the idea that there'll be any appetite in England at all to keep hanging on to Northern Ireland once the Union fractures is for the birds.
    In my dealings with politicians from the RoI. The overwhelming majority were, privately, happier for NI to be the UKs problem.
    Reunion of that island will cause an explosion of bloodshed. I suspect there will be a mass, perhaps forced, exodus of the unionists to the RUK mainland. Who pays for that financially is another matter but it will be extraordinarily expensive.

    Having said that, although the loss of Scotland from the union will be very sad for historic reasons, it feels as if it is now inevitable. Will this see an exodus also of those who are unionist and feel as if they have no place in an Indy Scotland? May there also be terrorism?
    One interesting consequence of the reunification of Ireland may well be the departure of hard-core Unionists to RUK, and mostly to Scotland. There they would give Scottish Unionism an electoral boost.

    This isn't the break up of Yugoslavia though. The RoI is not the backward looking isolationist Craggy Island of decades ago, it is a modern, increasingly secular European society. The rise of the Alliance Party shows that for a growing subset of NI voters it looks the way forward.
    This assumes that Northern Ireland goes before Scotland does. Although yes, some of the Unionists might feel the desire to go to Scotland regardless.

    Though this, of course, is an important part of the calculus. The Union with Scotland is doomed, and the Northern Irish Unionist's geographical and cultural links are primarily with Scotland. Thus, when Scotland goes, Northern Ireland necessarily follows (England won't want it.) It's just a matter of what the end state is: reunification, a crown dependency, or an independent state. There are arguments for each. It'll be up to the people to decide.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,421
    edited June 2021

    Fishing said:

    Charles said:

    Sandpit said:

    Macron is a total and utter arse, again.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/06/12/boris-johnson-infuriated-emmanuel-macron-suggested-northern/

    Yet another sign that the EU a see Northern Ireland purely as a political football to push around the UK, paying little regard to the history of the Province.

    As I’ve said before, the EU really need to let the UK sand RoI sort out the Province between them, the Union has no understanding of the place.

    The EU know nothing about NI, and care even less.

    They never had to suffer the horrific bombings, maimings or shootings.
    'The EU' includes the Rep. of Ireland which has a deep and longstanding involvement with the problems of unhappy Northern Ireland.

    However NI was doing very well when both the Republic and the UK, including NI were part of the EU, and many warned that leaving the EU would cause problems. Johnson, among other pooh-poohed that idea.

    Any problems therefor are down to Britains hard Brexit government to solve. Especially as it signed an agreement which, it was claimed, solved them.
    Sorry OKC that’s complete bollocks

    Regardless of whether the issues are “down to” Brexit both sides need to work to solve them.

    The GFA was established to achieve an objective (fudging the border) but was predicated on both RoI and the UK being in the EEA.

    That is no longer the case. So the rational thing to do is to find another way to achieve the same objective. It is clear the protocol is contributing to unionist disquiet and tension in the province. So we need to look at another solution.

    Part of the problem is the EU’s insistence on the sanctity of the single market. That implies there needs to be a hard border somewhere in the chain GB-NI-ROI-EU. None of the options are acceptable to all the parties. So people need to figure out a more creative solution - a process with which the EU Commission has refused to engage.
    But if the EU had been more flexible in its interpretation of the Single Market, particularly with regard to Freedom of Movement, we wouldn't have left in the first place, and they'd still have our hundreds of millions a week to waste. Nor would the Swiss have told them to shove it a few weeks ago.

    The EU keeps shooting itself in the foot, but learns nothing each time.
    Or alternatively, they weighed up the possibilities and decided that the compromises needed to keep the UK on board were a price not worth paying, net contributions and all.

    Arrogant? Definitely. But so is one large country demanding that 27 countries should change the agreed rules in a way that the one wants and the 27 don't particularly.
    That suggests a way forward actually.

    How about instead of us aligning to the EU on food standards, they align to ours?

    Of course, that would mean a sudden, dramatic change in the EU’s laws to bring them in line, which wouldn’t be cheap. And it would make their farmers less competitive going forward as we kept enforcing high welfare and regulatory standards on them.

    But it would resolve the issue of sovereignty in the minds of Brexiteers and resolve the Irish border issues.

    And as a bonus, it would probably destroy CAP.
This discussion has been closed.