New Ipsos “Vaccine Passport” polling finds strong support across a wide range of activities – politi
Comments
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I can't argue with a word of thatcontrarian said:
In the respect that the EU has a foreign policy at all, it is a catastrophe of the first order. It has handed an unprincipled and arch enemy serious leverage and untold billions in energy contracts with no thought to how this might be used.DavidL said:
Yes, the EU will be really pushing for sanctions on Russian gas exports, just as soon as that new pipe is finished. Honest.ydoethur said:
Yes, but it’s unlikely we would respond militarily. More probably it would be additional sanctions, but that in itself wouldn’t be a light matter for Russia.Casino_Royale said:Can we (NATO/The West) do anything to contest a full-scale Russian takeover of Ukraine?
I wonder if Putin might just go for it, you know.
Meanwhile its unbelievably stupid vaccine policy has alienated a key ally and a power that would be absolutely instrumental in co-ordinating any Western response in Britain.
Von Der Leyen, Merkel and Macron could not, simply could not have played this any worse0 -
It's less than 70 jabs per staff member per day; 10 an hour with an hour off for lunch. (Cruelly insufficient, I know.) I know nothing about vaccination logistics, but even if you factor in not everyone doing the actual jabs, it doesn't sound stupid. It seems more plausible than 10 jabs per staff member per day- especially for something that's being put forward as a showcase of getting on with the job well.FrancisUrquhart said:
Edit :- Here is video where the head of operations says 10,000 a week...FrancisUrquhart said:
Fair enough...I did say I didn't think that was very many.Stuartinromford said:
This one, presumably:FrancisUrquhart said:
It a report on France24 and this "mega" centre is the Stade de France...so no mis-translation and its not from some tiny community centre in a back water. 10,000 a week is the aim.Stuartinromford said:
So there are two possibilities.FrancisUrquhart said:
That isn't very many....Andy_JS said:Sky News: "Paris's new vaccination centre will open next week and do 1,500 jabs a day."
One is that something in the story has got lost in translation. It's for a smallish part of the city, or it's not 1,500 jabs a day.
The other is that the French government is really talking about doing 1,500 jabs a day in Paris. When we know that they are doing several hundred thousand a day nationwide, with a substantial increase firmly pencilled in for the week after Easter. (We do all know that, don't we?)
But up onto the leg of the story the usual suspects in the professional and social media mount...
(No, they're not doing well. But, as when A Level Physics students calculate the mass of a car as 17 ounces, Please try applying some common sense.)
The Louisa Jordan mass vaccination centre in Glasgow has the capacity to do to 10,000 per day.....
https://www.france24.com/en/france/20210323-stade-de-france-supersite-to-ramp-up-paris-region-s-sluggish-vaccination-drive
The aim is to offer 10,000 daily jabs, starting in early April....
Maybe 1500 an hour got mangled to 1500 a day.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-2388782/Vaccination-centre-opens-Stade-France.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ito=1490&ns_campaign=1490
And here
The stadium will start vaccinating people on April 6. It is aiming to inoculate around 10,000 a week, said Duroselle, and will employ 150 staff each day.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-france-vaccination/iconic-french-sports-stadium-prepares-to-be-vaccination-centre-idUSKBN2BN2VG
Maybe he misspoke? Although 150 staff is nothing. I think its impossible to do 10,000 a day with only 150 staff.
(I've tried looking at the video, but the damn thing isn't loading.)0 -
No. I didn’t raise it to sneer at it. There’s nothing wrong with the term. The opposition to it is very, very weird.TimT said:
Not triggered. It's just a very silly concept. It is not wild swimming. It is swimming in the sea, or lake, or river, or pond or whatever. You seem to be the only one getting worked up, or should I say triggered.Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.0 -
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.1 -
This is not a criticism as we all have our quirks, but having followed the entire discussion no one seems to be triggered more by ensuring people use the 'correct' terminology than you, indeed you've gone out of your way to pick a fight on it when some are merely expressing bafflement on a term they had not come across.Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.
Far from an 'Only on PB' thing it appears to be an Anabobazina thing - you are the one exercised, and indeed insistent, that people use the terms you want them to use...in relation to camping and swimming.
I don't think it viable to be the most emotional ("talking shite" etc) and insistent on a trivial matter, then insist others are the ones reacting bizarrely.
Edit: And for the record, to me Wild Swimming seems a reasonable term to be clear what type of swimming people are engaged in, but that doesn't mean it cannot also seem silly to people who have long engaged in it without calling it that. It can work but still be a bit silly.4 -
It's a struggle. One of my daughters was wild swimming just last week in one of the high tarns in the frozen north, where the snow was still lingering. How she resisted the temptation to write a book about it, or at least a series for the Guardian I have no idea. "There is lots of water in and around the UK. It is always wet, and usually freezing cold. Strangely when you go to the remotest and coldest bits you have it to yourself. This is deeply spiritual. The end."Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.
As you say, absolutely bizarre.
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I quite like it to be honest, but a quick Google of the Guardian shows they've managed to crowbar "appropriation by privileged urban elites" (wot?) and "single-sex safe spaces" into articles on it which brought out my innermost sighs.Gallowgate said:The only person I know who does "wild swimming", although they tend to call it "open water swimming", is a salt of the earth type from a Durham pit village.
Can't they just leave it alone?0 -
If someone was willing to pay her for such a book, she definitely should have.algarkirk said:
It's a struggle. One of my daughters was wild swimming just last week in one of the high tarns in the frozen north, where the snow was still lingering. How she resisted the temptation to write a book about it, or at least a series for the Guardian I have no idea.Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.
As you say, absolutely bizarre.1 -
They can refuse to buy his vaccines?Casino_Royale said:Can we (NATO/The West) do anything to contest a full-scale Russian takeover of Ukraine?
I wonder if Putin might just go for it, you know.0 -
https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1377350803036413955MrEd said:Oh look, those nice cuddly respecter of political decency aka The Democrats are trying to overturn an election they lost. Who would have thought?
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/18/opinions/iowa-second-district-us-house-battle-douglas/index.html
Oh.0 -
It really is as simple as this. See also: cycling and mountain biking. Running and fell running etc etc.Gallowgate said:
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.0 -
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.1 -
I’d encourage her to write an article about that as many people would be interested to read it.algarkirk said:
It's a struggle. One of my daughters was wild swimming just last week in one of the high tarns in the frozen north, where the snow was still lingering. How she resisted the temptation to write a book about it, or at least a series for the Guardian I have no idea. "There is lots of water in and around the UK. It is always wet, and usually freezing cold. Strangely when you go to the remotest and coldest bits you have it to yourself. This is deeply spiritual. The end."Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.
As you say, absolutely bizarre.0 -
Only if you are foolish enough to do so without a hat.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
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And unregulated speech is wild talk.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
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They are members of NATO's "Partnership for Peace".Floater said:
The Ukrainian Military did a press conference about a week ago - it struck me that one of the 2 flags in view was of NATO.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
Wonder if NATO ok'd that
As is, er, the Russian Federation...0 -
Even if you could, it would make no difference.Floater said:
I can't argue with a word of thatcontrarian said:
In the respect that the EU has a foreign policy at all, it is a catastrophe of the first order. It has handed an unprincipled and arch enemy serious leverage and untold billions in energy contracts with no thought to how this might be used.DavidL said:
Yes, the EU will be really pushing for sanctions on Russian gas exports, just as soon as that new pipe is finished. Honest.ydoethur said:
Yes, but it’s unlikely we would respond militarily. More probably it would be additional sanctions, but that in itself wouldn’t be a light matter for Russia.Casino_Royale said:Can we (NATO/The West) do anything to contest a full-scale Russian takeover of Ukraine?
I wonder if Putin might just go for it, you know.
Meanwhile its unbelievably stupid vaccine policy has alienated a key ally and a power that would be absolutely instrumental in co-ordinating any Western response in Britain.
Von Der Leyen, Merkel and Macron could not, simply could not have played this any worse0 -
If not now then when?MaxPB said:
Europe is so reliant on Russian gas that they won't dare put up any significant sanctions.Casino_Royale said:
I don't think Putin gives a toss about sanctions.ydoethur said:
Yes, but it’s unlikely we would respond militarily. More probably it would be additional sanctions, but that in itself wouldn’t be a light matter for Russia.Casino_Royale said:Can we (NATO/The West) do anything to contest a full-scale Russian takeover of Ukraine?
I wonder if Putin might just go for it, you know.
I'm really interested to see how this turns out, it's the first time the EU will essentially be fending for itself without the UK and most likely without the US who seem to just want to forget that Europe exists.
The west is so bankrupt after funding corona there is zero appetite or money for any kind of response whatever. The leader of the free world has very serious problems that are being totally glossed over, almost Pravda like, by a compliant media. The European Union is a complete paper tiger that has just massively p*ssed off the one power in the region that might actually do something, and is led by a person so serially incompetent and arrogant that the situation will not and cannot alter.
The time could not be riper.1 -
Wrong. It’s the usual PB sneering by the usual sneerers. They should try it, and get out more.kle4 said:
This is not a criticism as we all have our quirks, but having followed the entire discussion no one seems to be triggered more by ensuring people use the 'correct' terminology than you, indeed you've gone out of your way to pick a fight on it when some are merely expressing bafflement on a term they had not come across.Anabobazina said:I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.
Absolutely bizarre.
Far from an 'Only on PB' thing it appears to be an Anabobazina thing - you are the one exercised, and indeed insistent, that people use the terms you want them to use...in relation to camping and swimming.
I don't think it viable to be the most emotional ("talking shite" etc) and insistent on a trivial matter, then insist others are the ones reacting bizarrely.0 -
Not really. There is good reason to moan about twattish cyclists who can go through a red light/ride on a pavement and smack into me, versus someone who wants to kill themselves in an adventurous way that has no impact on me. Good luck to wild swimmers. They'll need it - no lifeguards to help them out if they get into trouble.Anabobazina said:
If you don’t like it, fine, but the PB wild swimming snowflake brigade has a large crossover with those that spend hours moaning about cyclists.1 -
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Good goal, England!1
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A very complacent attitude.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Yes China threatens our infrastucture, as it does most of the West but it is over the other side of the world and on a different continent and not a military threat to us domestically.
Russia is part of Europe and the largest military power in Europe, only NATO and our nuclear weapons deter Putin from invading western Europe, including us0 -
It makes more of a splash elsewhere.Gallowgate said:
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.1 -
Are you bar t'at?SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
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Withdrawing an unreasonable if lawful action when its clea it will not succeed doesn't make you reasonable, of course.Pulpstar said:
https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1377350803036413955MrEd said:Oh look, those nice cuddly respecter of political decency aka The Democrats are trying to overturn an election they lost. Who would have thought?
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/18/opinions/iowa-second-district-us-house-battle-douglas/index.html
Oh.0 -
1
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So that's going well then?rpjs said:
They are members of NATO's "Partnership for Peace".Floater said:
The Ukrainian Military did a press conference about a week ago - it struck me that one of the 2 flags in view was of NATO.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
Wonder if NATO ok'd that
As is, er, the Russian Federation...1 -
What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison1
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What’s the EU done to piss off Turkey?contrarian said:
If not now then when?MaxPB said:
Europe is so reliant on Russian gas that they won't dare put up any significant sanctions.Casino_Royale said:
I don't think Putin gives a toss about sanctions.ydoethur said:
Yes, but it’s unlikely we would respond militarily. More probably it would be additional sanctions, but that in itself wouldn’t be a light matter for Russia.Casino_Royale said:Can we (NATO/The West) do anything to contest a full-scale Russian takeover of Ukraine?
I wonder if Putin might just go for it, you know.
I'm really interested to see how this turns out, it's the first time the EU will essentially be fending for itself without the UK and most likely without the US who seem to just want to forget that Europe exists.
The west is so bankrupt after funding corona there is zero appetite or money for any kind of response whatever. The leader of the free world has very serious problems that are being totally glossed over, almost Pravda like, by a compliant media. The European Union is a complete paper tiger that has just massively p*ssed off the one power in the region that might actually do something, and is led by a person so serially incompetent and arrogant that the situation will not and cannot alter.
The time could not be riper.0 -
I guess that's where it does not chime with me. There were no swimming pools anywhere near me as a kid. In Malta or Cyprus, we just walked to where we could access the sea. In Plymouth, a river pond or - if a parent dropped us off, a cove which usually required 15 minutes walk down a steep narrow path through the brambles. Who'd actually want to spend time in a swimming pool outside training and competition?Gallowgate said:
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.0 -
Excellent strike. In times past, we’d have drawn this game (I guess we still might).Leon said:Good goal, England!
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Russia has no interest in invading the U.K., and couldn’t if it wanted to. That’s a ludicrous suggestion.HYUFD said:
A very complacent attitude.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Yes China threatens our infrastucture, as it does most of the West but it is over the other side of the world and on a different continent and not a military threat to us domestically.
Russia is part of Europe and the largest military power in Europe, only NATO and our nuclear weapons deter Putin from invading western Europe, including us
It’s our strategic rival because we have overlapping ideas of our spheres of influence. Our interest in that part of the world (or more specifically our interest in not letting Russia dominate it) is receding though.
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Depends if you’re baht ‘at.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
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Germany 4 minutes from losing at home to North Macedonia0
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Russia might want to wait on invading Ukraine until everyone has taken delivery - and paid for- their Sputnik vaccines....0
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https://youtu.be/mxtpzHgwARQMarqueeMark said:
Are you bar t'at?SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
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Fair enough. I completely agree. Yet that activity is now known as wild swimming, it’s just useful shorthand.TimT said:
I guess that's where it does not chime with me. There were no swimming pools anywhere near me as a kid. In Malta or Cyprus, we just walked to where we could access the sea. In Plymouth, a river pond or - if a parent dropped us off, a cove which usually required 15 minutes walk down a steep narrow path through the brambles. Who'd actually want to spend time in a swimming pool outside training and competition?Gallowgate said:
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.0 -
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
0 -
“I know I’m denying a a referendum you have a moral right to, but look at the government of Burma! I’m not killing kids like them, so you should be grateful really”.ydoethur said:
That is the most surreal non-sequitur I have ever seen.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
2 -
Not really, the EU pushed an agenda of ensuring the UK was a third country. This is one of the consequences of that and now they have to lie in that bed they've made. In fact I'd suggest it's in our longer term interest to make them lie in it. We're an island, our interests are not under threat, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from intervening here.HYUFD said:
A very complacent attitude.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Yes China threatens our infrastucture, as it does most of the West but it is over the other side of the world and on a different continent and not a military threat to us domestically.
Russia is part of Europe and the largest military power in Europe, only NATO and our nuclear weapons deter Putin from invading western Europe, including us1 -
Struggling to dig the graves quickly enough in Sao Paolo.
https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/446010496475042/0 -
It puts them a lot closer to reasonableness that what the Republicans were openly contemplating.kle4 said:
Withdrawing an unreasonable if lawful action when its clea it will not succeed doesn't make you reasonable, of course.Pulpstar said:
https://twitter.com/kkondik/status/1377350803036413955MrEd said:Oh look, those nice cuddly respecter of political decency aka The Democrats are trying to overturn an election they lost. Who would have thought?
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/18/opinions/iowa-second-district-us-house-battle-douglas/index.html
Oh.0 -
I wouldn’t give HYUFD any more ideas.DavidL said:
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
0 -
I agree China is a problem. However, Russia regularly makes illegal incursions into our air space and sends submarines into our territorial waters, and has also used chemical weapons on our soil; it wants to dominate the land, sea and air all around us so it can dominate us too. I very much see it as a threat.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Besides, in our globalised age I don't think there's any such thing as defending ourselves at the border anymore. That's not how hostile modern states defeat you anymore. Those days are gone.
Sure, you have to box clever - and use military force as a last resort - but you have to engage with their geopolitical machinations wherever they might meaningfully affect your fundamental interests, and those of your allies you depend upon.4 -
Britain has more power when it chooses to 'Rule the waves' with naval power, and not get involved in European land wars - this was the case in the 18th century and it has never varied.Time_to_Leave said:
Russia has no interest in invading the U.K., and couldn’t if it wanted to. That’s a ludicrous suggestion.HYUFD said:
A very complacent attitude.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Yes China threatens our infrastucture, as it does most of the West but it is over the other side of the world and on a different continent and not a military threat to us domestically.
Russia is part of Europe and the largest military power in Europe, only NATO and our nuclear weapons deter Putin from invading western Europe, including us
It’s our strategic rival because we have overlapping ideas of our spheres of influence. Our interest in that part of the world (or more specifically our interest in not letting Russia dominate it) is receding though.1 -
Not so much of a problem if the studies about vaccinated people doing very little if any spreading of the virus are borne out. I mean FFS, one of the big topics at the moment is whether we should introduce vaccine passports to allow close social mixing!TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You are Lord Halifax and I claim my £5.MaxPB said:Not really, the EU pushed an agenda of ensuring the UK was a third country. This is one of the consequences of that and now they have to lie in that bed they've made. In fact I'd suggest it's in our longer term interest to make them lie in it. We're an island, our interests are not under threat, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from intervening here.
Russia will not stop with Ukraine, first it was Georgia, then the Crimea.
Appeasement will not work.4 -
Jesus. Russia have moved fast.Leon said:Germany 4 minutes from losing at home to North Macedonia
3 -
Wait until the Telegraph hears what bears have been up to in the woods.TheScreamingEagles said:
2 -
HYUFD is organising a hunt for the person who leaked his plansydoethur said:
I wouldn’t give HYUFD any more ideas.DavidL said:
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
1 -
Surely the Germans will find a last second equaliser??0
-
If this does turn into a shooting war, surely the first thing to go will be the Kerch Bridge.williamglenn said:0 -
The Russian threat is being massively overstated here. If they invade the Ukraine my expectation is that they will get their asses kicked and Putin will be gone within 12 months.TheScreamingEagles said:
You are Lord Halifax and I claim my £5.MaxPB said:Not really, the EU pushed an agenda of ensuring the UK was a third country. This is one of the consequences of that and now they have to lie in that bed they've made. In fact I'd suggest it's in our longer term interest to make them lie in it. We're an island, our interests are not under threat, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from intervening here.
Russia will not stop with Ukraine, first it was Georgia, then the Crimea.
Appeasement will not work.1 -
Re: Ukraine - this an interesting link: http://america.aljazeera.com/multimedia/2014/2/mapping-ukraine-sidentitycrisis.html
I think unfortunately Russia could probably get away with annexing the areas that voted for Yanukovich, although said annexation would never be recognised by the West and there would probably be more sanctions.
I don't think Putin could get away with annexing the Ukrainian speaking areas. Firstly, he would almost certainly meet resistance from the population and secondly it would give the EU a long direct border with Russia (obviously there is the Kaliningrad enclave at the moment) and would force the West to do something.0 -
An excellent shorthand. A glance at Amazon suggests that as well as being a convenient 2 words to describe an innocent pastime it has also generated a publishing tsunami, to read a tenth of which would keep any devotee away from wild swimming in the depths of winter in Loch Spelve. Loch Bui, or Loch Ba (all recommended by the way) for 20 years.Anabobazina said:
Fair enough. I completely agree. Yet that activity is now known as wild swimming, it’s just useful shorthand.TimT said:
I guess that's where it does not chime with me. There were no swimming pools anywhere near me as a kid. In Malta or Cyprus, we just walked to where we could access the sea. In Plymouth, a river pond or - if a parent dropped us off, a cove which usually required 15 minutes walk down a steep narrow path through the brambles. Who'd actually want to spend time in a swimming pool outside training and competition?Gallowgate said:
Most people call going for a walk somewhere rural as a "hike" or a "ramble" to differentiate it from going for a walk around the block.SandyRentool said:So if I go for a walk on Ilkley Moor is that 'wild walking'?
Most normal people go swimming at Swimming Pools. Hence it makes sense to differentiate swimming in lakes and such.
0 -
6 minutes of injury time! The ref certainly giving them plenty of opAnabobazina said:Surely the Germans will find a last second equaliser??
0 -
None of the sports channels have the German game on, presumably because it was considered a foregone conclusion...0
-
7 minutes0
-
Germany in the 7th minute of injury time. I mean, really?0
-
7 minutes into injury time in Germany ...0
-
Please can we burn the industrial parts of Glasgow to the ground instead? I like Edinburgh and I’m hoping to see some of the festival again this year.Floater said:
HYUFD is organising a hunt for the person who leaked his plansydoethur said:
I wouldn’t give HYUFD any more ideas.DavidL said:
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
2 -
North Macedonia WIN
lol!2 -
I'm watching in on Sky Sports via the red button.Anabobazina said:None of the sports channels have the German game on, presumably because it was considered a foregone conclusion...
0 -
Leon said:
6 minutes of injury time! The ref certainly giving them plenty of opAnabobazina said:Surely the Germans will find a last second equaliser??
Leon said:
6 minutes of injury time! The ref certainly giving them plenty of opAnabobazina said:Surely the Germans will find a last second equaliser??
8th minute...Leon said:
6 minutes of injury time! The ref certainly giving them plenty of opAnabobazina said:Surely the Germans will find a last second equaliser??
0 -
Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?1
-
Boxing clever, in this case, is making Europe lie in the bed it made wrt the UK-EU relationship. It pushed us out to third country status and now it needs to learn the consequences of that decision. It's still pushing us away with moves to block UK research from defence facing grants and the stupid decisions on Galileo.Casino_Royale said:
I agree China is a problem. However, Russia regularly makes illegal incursions into our air space and sends submarines into our territorial waters, and has also used chemical weapons on our soil; it wants to dominate the land, sea and air all around us so it can dominate us too. I very much see it as a threat.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Besides, in our globalised age I don't think there's any such thing as defending ourselves at the border anymore. That's not how hostile modern states defeat you anymore. Those days are gone.
Sure, you have to box clever - and use military force as a last resort - but you have to engage with their geopolitical machinations wherever they might meaningfully affect your fundamental interests, and those of your allies you depend upon.
Again, why should we come to the aid of those who have proven they wouldn't do the same for us and are actively trying to punish us? The reality is that they'll resent us for getting involved but also resent us if we don't. Better not to spend our time, effort and money on it.3 -
All over, North Macedonia defeats Germany in the soccer.0
-
At some point Russia's gentle wanderings west may encourage parts of Eastern Europe to abandon the NPT and look to reinforce their own defence capabilities. At which point we’ll either have to sanction people who should be friends peers on or ignore it and risk other nations deciding to be come nuclear powers as well.0
-
We are in NatoCatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
2 -
To be fair to the Germans, with so much Covid in their country it's amazing they could even field a team.....Leon said:North Macedonia WIN
lol!1 -
The Germans have lost!!0
-
It's not appeasement, it's making the EU live with their poor decisions wrt the agenda they've pushed with the UK.TheScreamingEagles said:
You are Lord Halifax and I claim my £5.MaxPB said:Not really, the EU pushed an agenda of ensuring the UK was a third country. This is one of the consequences of that and now they have to lie in that bed they've made. In fact I'd suggest it's in our longer term interest to make them lie in it. We're an island, our interests are not under threat, we have nothing to gain and a lot to lose from intervening here.
Russia will not stop with Ukraine, first it was Georgia, then the Crimea.
Appeasement will not work.0 -
Yes. Actions have consequences. They are showing that they don’t want to be particularly close allies. A shame, but it’s their choice.MaxPB said:
Boxing clever, in this case, is making Europe lie in the bed it made wrt the UK-EU relationship. It pushed us out to third country status and now it needs to learn the consequences of that decision. It's still pushing us away with moves to block UK research from defence facing grants and the stupid decisions on Galileo.Casino_Royale said:
I agree China is a problem. However, Russia regularly makes illegal incursions into our air space and sends submarines into our territorial waters, and has also used chemical weapons on our soil; it wants to dominate the land, sea and air all around us so it can dominate us too. I very much see it as a threat.MaxPB said:
Why do we? Honestly, I've realised over the last year that we are an island nation, what happens on the continent isn't our concern, they made that abundantly clear to us after 2016.Casino_Royale said:
We have to Max. Russia is the biggest state threat to the UK.MaxPB said:
But the issue for Europe is that it just lost its other reliable ally with any kind of military. It would be sad if Russian tanks rolled through Europe but after the experience of brexit and everything that has followed I'd no longer want us to get involved. There's no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending a continent that values the UK to such a low extent.DavidL said:
The US European Command doesn't really have any assets any more, does it? They have all gone home.Yokes said:
It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.Floater said:
I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is itYokes said:On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.
Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.
Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.
Its fair to say the US is worried.
US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
The US has deep gut instincts which want to react as soon as Russia wants to do anything but the truth is that they lost all interest in Europe at least 20 years ago. And quite right too. They should be focused on the Pacific.
And if they're not stood-up to then NATO collapses leaving us high and dry.
The biggest threat to the UK isn't Russia, it's China. Chinese companies buying up UK IP and swathes of UK industry, making key investments in our infrastructure and national security infrastructure. China is getting its hooks into the UK to an extent that we won't be able to get rid of them without incurring huge damage and cost.
Russia isn't going to invade the UK. It has little to no leverage over the UK. We have no incentive to spend our blood and treasure defending Europe any more.
Besides, in our globalised age I don't think there's any such thing as defending ourselves at the border anymore. That's not how hostile modern states defeat you anymore. Those days are gone.
Sure, you have to box clever - and use military force as a last resort - but you have to engage with their geopolitical machinations wherever they might meaningfully affect your fundamental interests, and those of your allies you depend upon.
Again, why should we come to the aid of those who have proven they wouldn't do the same for us and are actively trying to punish us? The reality is that they'll resent us for getting involved but also resent us if we do. Better not to spend our time, effort and money on it.
0 -
Chortle0
-
On the other hand it's an opportunity for the UK to remind the EU that they bring a lot to the party, particularly in relation to European security - and perhaps the EU could start recognising that in ongoing negotiations about relationships in other areas...CatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
2 -
Armenia leading Germany’s group 😂1
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A continent in decline!Anabobazina said:The Germans have lost!!
0 -
It is absurd, the US and Canada and Norway and Iceland and Turkey are also in NATO but not in the EU.CatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
NATO is a mutual defence alliance, it has no direct connection to the EU (though most EU nations are in it)0 -
The problem with that is would anyone notice:?Time_to_Leave said:
Please can we burn the industrial parts of Glasgow to the ground instead? I like Edinburgh and I’m hoping to see some of the festival again this year.Floater said:
HYUFD is organising a hunt for the person who leaked his plansydoethur said:
I wouldn’t give HYUFD any more ideas.DavidL said:
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
2 -
-
Austria, Cyprus, Finland, Ireland, Malta, Sweden are not in NATO. One of the many features which render the EU unstable once stuff starts happening.CatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
0 -
By seeking to exclude us from defence and space related research on security groundsCatMan said:
0 -
-
I also love Edinburgh, it is one of my favourite cities in the UK alongside Bath and Oxford.Time_to_Leave said:
Please can we burn the industrial parts of Glasgow to the ground instead? I like Edinburgh and I’m hoping to see some of the festival again this year.Floater said:
HYUFD is organising a hunt for the person who leaked his plansydoethur said:
I wouldn’t give HYUFD any more ideas.DavidL said:
The way things are going he could burn Edinburgh to the ground and still look like a moderate.HYUFD said:What with Russia threatening Ukraine and China banning non patriots from the Hong Kong legislature, when Boris refuses indyref2 in 2 months time he will look relatively moderate by comparison
Edinburgh also voted to stay in the UK in 2014 by a comfortable margin, Glasgow voted to leave0 -
Isn't the reality more than that? NATO exists to protect Europe from Russia. Europe doesn't exactly benefit from loosening its ties to those who input the most towards that security.HYUFD said:
It is absurd, the US and Canada and Norway and Iceland and Turkey are also in NATO but not in the EU.CatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
NATO is a mutual defence alliance, it has no direct connection to the EU (though most EU nations are in it)1 -
Yes, that's the core of the issue. The EU is pushing an agenda of isolating the UK in defence and security terms, that's their prerogative, but it has consequences and this is an opportunity to make them live with those consequences.TimT said:
I am disturbed by the idea of the NATO members of the EU not treating the UK as a member of NATO.CatMan said:Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?
1 -
Interesting.Scott_xP said:1 -
Crucial caveat....used for everyday social activities once the pandemic has eased....very lawyerly.Scott_xP said:twitter.com/Telegraph/status/1377360403101978625
Allows him to say in the future I was for them and against them.0
