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New Ipsos “Vaccine Passport” polling finds strong support across a wide range of activities – politi

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Comments

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    isam said:

    Is Starmer reading different polling to the ones quoted in the thread header?

    Labour focus groups telling him something different on vaccine app?

    If you read what he actually says on the front page, it isn’t clear whether he thinks they’re a good or bad idea, or whether he’ll vote for or against them.


    What a surprise - the detail of what Starmer said is completely different from the soundbite...
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    alex_ said:



    Scott_xP said:
    Not that i know anything about the background to this report, its origins, how and why it came to its conclusions, or what actually it says, i'm interested to know how it is possible to construct a report about race relations that won't have somebody somewhere criticising it as "divisive"...
    I prefer "monumental epic bullshit" -
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1377304628484792327
    Most of the people writing the report were black or Asian.
    Probably not the right type of black and asian....after all who can forget the youtube video posted on here of the white blm supporter in the us telling the black woman he was blacker than she was.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Is Starmer reading different polling to the ones quoted in the thread header?

    Labour focus groups telling him something different on vaccine app?

    If you read what he actually says on the front page, it isn’t clear whether he thinks they’re a good or bad idea, or whether he’ll vote for or against them.


    That is very different from the reaction of some posters on here

    I doubt few if anyone, including HMG, would disagree
    It seems completely typical of Starmer to me; a long winded, fussy way of not really saying anything
    Its like he was a lawyer or something....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,692
    DavidL said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Come on Robert. Russia is a joke of a power. Not a very funny one but a joke nonetheless. They will not be invading any real countries, not even the Baltic states. He can take advantage when there is chaos and weakness.
    I think you have a somewhat outdated and prejudiced view of Russia's capabilities. According to the World Bank and the IMF, their economy is only just behind Germany in PPP terms.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,335

    Yokes said:

    Floater said:

    Yokes said:

    On the headline topic, has the UK population become a set of f**king ninnies? Enough people will get the vaccine to create a high level of protection. We do not need to exclude those who do not or cannot.

    Off-topic: Based on the concept that when a country sabre rattles it often increases troops on an opposing country's borders. After a point, the scale & type of build-up gets to a stage where you have to assume that the intention is no longer to threaten force but to use it.

    Watching the Russian-Ukrainian border in recent days, you are getting very close to that assumption.

    Its fair to say the US is worried.

    I was waiting to hear your view - not looking great is it
    It is not. At very least its a strong arm negotiation attempt and a test of Biden early to see the reaction. Russia has possibly assessed him as per Obama, will do fuck all. At the worst its military action, possibly territory around the Sea of Azov but just as likely to weaken Ukraine's military to a massive extent as it seeks to reform and modernise. My understanding is that Russian messages to the likes of Germany is to bring Ukraine to heel as per whatever unspecified demands Russia has. The timing, ie around Easter, would be a concern, its a well established practice to do things when western states & governments are on holiday.

    US European Command is reportedly on 'imminent crisis' which is as high a watch status as you can get before actual shooting starts.
    I would have thought this is one for a Western cyber-hack/attack on Russian forces, including special forces, drones and proxies for Ukrainian forces if needs be.
    One of the Russian issues at the moment is that Ukraine is rearming, representing a possible threat to their proxies in the East. I doubt the Russians think that the occupied area of Crimea would be subject to a frontal military attack by Ukraine. The proxy republics in the East, however, have been a bit basket casey at times and it wouldn't be beyond possibility that the Ukrainians, once rearmed, could roll in successfully.

    The reported boost to Russian ground forces is reportedly 4000 (US source to media). Added to forces in place plus a late deployment of rapid reaction airborne troops (who are on full exercise at the moment) they could run a limited campaign over say securing electricity and water routes into Crimea create some kind of expanded buffer area. Looking at the various transport reports, however, its a) more fighting hardware than a, expanded motorised rifle brigade on the move in the immediate vicinity and b) it is motorised rifle, which is a self contained tank, armoured carrier and artillery unit, not say a battalion of special forces

    Given that the report of rail freight stock shortages apparently came via an official news agency, its either a ruse designed to cause alarm or they are moving way more than 4000 troops into theater.



  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,710
    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    BAME has a long contested history. I have never met a person who liked the term when used about them. I have long tried to avoid it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,206
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,083
    edited March 2021
    Restaurants get screwed, drivers get screwed and the consumer gets screwed...and despite the pandemic causing a massive surge in business, the deliver apps don't make money....

    https://youtu.be/-KwtJX_Tcjo
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 3,706
    Mix-up because fuck-up wasn't allowed in the tweet?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,921
    Does GBNews qualify Ems Barr for blue tick status?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    BAME has a long contested history. I have never met a person who liked the term when used about them. I have long tried to avoid it.
    We await Kinabalu’s reiterated justification of the term, stoutly advanced about six months ago, even when told it was about to be ditched. Like every prior term
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    Leon said:

    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    BAME has a long contested history. I have never met a person who liked the term when used about them. I have long tried to avoid it.
    We await Kinabalu’s reiterated justification of the term, stoutly advanced about six months ago, even when told it was about to be ditched. Like every prior term
    Anyone who uses the term BAME in any serious sense is a simpleton fuckwit and a patronising racist.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Foxy said:

    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    BAME has a long contested history. I have never met a person who liked the term when used about them. I have long tried to avoid it.
    I assumed it was never used outside 'official' purposes for means of categorisation rather than, generally, a catch all identity that people keenly felt, though obviously it isn't something I would personally know. Probably quite handy for people who want to talk generically about race but not so good when talking about or to individuals or individual communities, since one BAME person or community is hardly interchangable with another, particularly when other factors are at play (as TSE relayed earlier eg re parental background, education).

    Also handy I imagine for meaning people don't try to guess someone's specific ethnicity (I'm sure there's occasions people would, though I cannot think of a particular reason right now).

    I feel like there's something in the human brain that likes to narrow things down to only 2 options or 2 categories so we don't get confused, even though many many things cannot be so precisely categorised.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    Scrap NATO. Let us unite with our English speaking allies and let Europe fend for itself
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126

    Restaurants get screwed, drivers get screwed and the consumer gets screwed...and despite the pandemic causing a massive surge in business, the deliver apps don't make money....

    https://youtu.be/-KwtJX_Tcjo

    That's a shame, it seemed like such a good idea - certainly I've purchased from a greater variety of restaurants than I otherwise would have without such apps.
    TimT said:

    In January, Britain made a change to its vaccine guidelines that shocked many health experts: If the second dose of one vaccine wasn’t available, patients could be given a different one.

    The new rule was based on sheer guesswork. There was no scientific data at the time demonstrating that mixing two coronavirus vaccines was safe and effective. But that may change soon.

    In February, researchers at the University of Oxford began a trial in which volunteers received a dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine followed by a dose of AstraZeneca’s formulation, or vice versa. This month, the researchers will start analyzing the blood of the subjects to see how well the mix-and-match approach works.


    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2021/03/31/world/covid-19-coronavirus/scientists-wonder-if-a-mix-and-match-approach-to-vaccines-could-be-the-way-to-go

    I object to an approach based on a sound scientific theory being referred to as sheer guesswork. Each of the viral vector, mRNA and protein vaccines stimulate the immune system to respond to pretty much the same viral protein. It is not guesswork to suggest that mixing would work. Of course, theory needs to be proven in practical trials. But sound theoretical reasoning is not sheer guesswork.
    Similar to the reporting of the delaying of the Pfizer doses - ok to present as a risk, but quite a few reports implied it was a risk taken with no possible basis for thinking it would work.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    edited March 2021
    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    You wanted us to be a third country. This is the bed you made, not us.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    Floater said:
    How very, very convenient.

    Strong whiff of bullshit. Question is, if they are actually fine - where would they be going in defiance of that export ban, President Biden?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314
    I have come to this late. But if this really does reflect what the British people want - a sort of social credit-cum-ID scheme - similar to what China has then I am very very disappointed.

    Worse - I am fearful for the future. Because this really means the end of any sort of real freedom - if we can only live our lives with the permission of the state.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,995
    edited March 2021
    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is what the report actually said:

    “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”

    Also:

    "It said education about the British Empire should focus on how “Britishness” influenced former colonies and those colonies “influenced what we know about modern Britain”."

    Those are the sections causing controversy I think.
    Yes - but more than that.

    The suspicion is that the Report is a cynically manufactured weapon to support the "let's not talk about racism" lobby.

    As if all the progress we've made on racism over the last few decades is down to people not talking about it.
    Aside from the illiteracy, the slavery passage seems to be bigging up the transformative Afro Carribean slave period experience while elsewhere the report compares Afro Carribean black people in the UK negatively with those from Africa.
    Totally fucking incoherent, or at it.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Actually, I genuinely dispute this. The EU - led by the Brussels loons and the French - is literally threatening to block contracted Pfizer exports, an act which will kill thousands of Britons. Putin may take out the occasional enemy with Polonium on foreign soil (which is no more than what America does with drones daily) but he is not, as far as I know, threatening mass death of Britons out of sheer spite.

    We should unite with Putin to corner German led Europe. We’ve been here before
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    Cyclefree said:

    I have come to this late. But if this really does reflect what the British people want - a sort of social credit-cum-ID scheme - similar to what China has then I am very very disappointed.

    Worse - I am fearful for the future. Because this really means the end of any sort of real freedom - if we can only live our lives with the permission of the state.

    The innocent shall have nothing to fear.

    Not really of course

    As Sir Pterry once said (though likely not the only one):

    Commander Vimes didn't like the phrase 'The innocent have nothing to fear', believing the innocent had everything to fear, mostly from the guilty but in the longer term even more from those who say things like 'The innocent have nothing to fear'
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    kle4 said:

    Restaurants get screwed, drivers get screwed and the consumer gets screwed...and despite the pandemic causing a massive surge in business, the deliver apps don't make money....

    https://youtu.be/-KwtJX_Tcjo

    That's a shame, it seemed like such a good idea - certainly I've purchased from a greater variety of restaurants than I otherwise would have without such apps.
    It's good for the customer - sub-cost pricing leads to a huge increase in consumer surplus.

    It is not optimal, but it's much better than being screwed by pricing above cost, like in so many other industries.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    edited March 2021
    Cyclefree said:

    I have come to this late. But if this really does reflect what the British people want - a sort of social credit-cum-ID scheme - similar to what China has then I am very very disappointed.

    Worse - I am fearful for the future. Because this really means the end of any sort of real freedom - if we can only live our lives with the permission of the state.

    Sadly too many have been like that for years now. You see it in mr Nabavi's posts he has given his privacy away to face book, mobile companies etc. Doesn't therefore see a problem why others would want to.

    I suspect some also now realise how much of their privacy they have given up to tell everyone what they had for breakfast and push it because they are jealous not all have
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052
    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    Why don't we just say "non-white"?

    It is plain, non-offensive statement of a fact.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is what the report actually said:

    “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”

    Also:

    "It said education about the British Empire should focus on how “Britishness” influenced former colonies and those colonies “influenced what we know about modern Britain”."

    Those are the sections causing controversy I think.
    Yes - but more than that.

    The suspicion is that the Report is a cynically manufactured weapon to support the "let's not talk about racism" lobby.

    As if all the progress we've made on racism over the last few decades is down to people not talking about it.
    Aside from the illiteracy, the slavery passage seems to be bigging up the transformative Afro Carribean slave period experience while elsewhere the report compares Afro Carribean black people in the UK negatively with those from Africa.
    Totally fucking incoherent, or at it.
    On the Today programme this morning, one of the people behind the report was saying that kids of West African origin are doing markedly better than kids of Afro Caribbean origin - in the same classes.

    You can poo-poo that. I'm quite interested to know why that would be.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    Fishing said:

    isam said:

    Perfectly put.

    In real life I’ve never heard anyone use the term BAME anyway - it does seem quite white-centric to me, surprising it was the go to PC term at all

    https://twitter.com/channel4news/status/1377330625196216321?s=21

    Why don't we just say "non-white"?

    It is plain, non-offensive statement of a fact.
    Or better yet just call him british
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    The eu is an agressive hostile state in our neighbourhood the way they are acting and let's remember ukraine problems were largely driven by eu meddling
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,410
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    No.
    They care about being against the French too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,598
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Nah - the French fare far worse.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,865
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    You're the one bringing Germany into this, just so you know. The issue I've raised is with Brussels on one side saying that the UK isn't to be trusted on security and defence, yet on the other maintaining an expectation that we'll always come to Europe's aid via NATO. I don't know if that sentiment is replicated in Berlin.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    I think you mistake not wanting to shed British blood for a nation that is actively seeking to exclude the UK from military research cooperation, with being against that nation. You do not need to be against, or even have animus against, a nation or its people not to want to shed your children's blood for that people.

    Indeed, I think the starting point for any analysis of any nation looking at involvement in any war should be 'why should we risk shedding our children's blood for this?'
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,671
    edited March 2021
    MaxPB said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    You're the one bringing Germany into this, just so you know. The issue I've raised is with Brussels on one side saying that the UK isn't to be trusted on security and defence, yet on the other maintaining an expectation that we'll always come to Europe's aid via NATO. I don't know if that sentiment is replicated in Berlin.
    I wonder if our forces would be allowed to use the Galileo PRS that we paid >£1 billion to help develop and were then cut out of?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    I did enjoy this piece on the difficulties of drawing parliamentary boundaries, in part due to the wildly divergent nature of local government warding which is often used as to help build them.

    I'm not sure there is much of a solution. Roughly equal seats is a good thing, but too rigid and you get problems as natural community boundaries which don't quite fit, but not rigid enough and there's no point to even trying (at local level I know they aim for 10%, but I've seen them go as high as 14 or 15). Plus naturally aligned communities may in any case cross county boundaries, but people can often pitch a fit if you try that.

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2021/03/here-s-why-we-need-fix-rules-governing-constituency-boundary-changes
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,429
    TOPPING said:

    Leon said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Actually, I genuinely dispute this. The EU - led by the Brussels loons and the French - is literally threatening to block contracted Pfizer exports, an act which will kill thousands of Britons. Putin may take out the occasional enemy with Polonium on foreign soil (which is no more than what America does with drones daily) but he is not, as far as I know, threatening mass death of Britons out of sheer spite.

    We should unite with Putin to corner German led Europe. We’ve been here before
    Pops in to PB, sees it's that time of night, turns in for an early night.
    lol. I was kinda teasing. Ish
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,995
    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    Basil Fawlty lives!
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    See what I mean?

    I'm not asking anyone to shed blood for me. Nor to care about the EU. On the contrary, I think it would be healthy for Britain to stop obsessing about it now Britain's left.

    Besides which I'm British.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,380
    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    How ridiculous. No it wouldn't.

    Why would Putin stop expansionism in Eastern Europe during a second Trump term? Onward and Westward, why would Putin feel the need to stop at Calais? I am not sure Trump Turnberry and Trump Aberdeenshire would be leverage enough.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,877
    edited March 2021

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    Basil Fawlty lives!
    One I never mentioned the war
    Two I never uttered a word that was anti german.

    Instead I merely pointed out if you tell us we can't be trusted with military projects then you can't expect us to come bleed for you. Its simple really. Why should my son go bleed for people that don't think we can be trusted and constantly tell us we are a third country?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    TimT said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    Indeed, I think the starting point for any analysis of any nation looking at involvement in any war should be 'why should we risk shedding our children's blood for this?'
    It gets them out of the house.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,475
    The New York Post piece on the Russian build up was quite good I thought. It speculated that the show of hardware was to rattle the Biden administration and see what they did. If I were the Russians, I would want Nordstream built and pumping gas before doing anything military in Ukraine. That's why I can't see this coming to anything - who knows, I could well be wrong.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,995

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is what the report actually said:

    “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”

    Also:

    "It said education about the British Empire should focus on how “Britishness” influenced former colonies and those colonies “influenced what we know about modern Britain”."

    Those are the sections causing controversy I think.
    Yes - but more than that.

    The suspicion is that the Report is a cynically manufactured weapon to support the "let's not talk about racism" lobby.

    As if all the progress we've made on racism over the last few decades is down to people not talking about it.
    Aside from the illiteracy, the slavery passage seems to be bigging up the transformative Afro Carribean slave period experience while elsewhere the report compares Afro Carribean black people in the UK negatively with those from Africa.
    Totally fucking incoherent, or at it.
    On the Today programme this morning, one of the people behind the report was saying that kids of West African origin are doing markedly better than kids of Afro Caribbean origin - in the same classes.

    You can poo-poo that. I'm quite interested to know why that would be.
    I'm just pointing out 'the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain' illiterate bullshit is just that.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,475
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    See what I mean?

    I'm not asking anyone to shed blood for me. Nor to care about the EU. On the contrary, I think it would be healthy for Britain to stop obsessing about it now Britain's left.

    Besides which I'm British.
    I agree.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited March 2021

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    Basil Fawlty lives!
    https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1377203613538398212
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    Indeed, I think the starting point for any analysis of any nation looking at involvement in any war should be 'why should we risk shedding our children's blood for this?'
    It gets them out of the house.
    Is that a COVID-specific reason? :dizzy:
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is what the report actually said:

    “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”

    Also:

    "It said education about the British Empire should focus on how “Britishness” influenced former colonies and those colonies “influenced what we know about modern Britain”."

    Those are the sections causing controversy I think.
    Yes - but more than that.

    The suspicion is that the Report is a cynically manufactured weapon to support the "let's not talk about racism" lobby.

    As if all the progress we've made on racism over the last few decades is down to people not talking about it.
    Aside from the illiteracy, the slavery passage seems to be bigging up the transformative Afro Carribean slave period experience while elsewhere the report compares Afro Carribean black people in the UK negatively with those from Africa.
    Totally fucking incoherent, or at it.
    On the Today programme this morning, one of the people behind the report was saying that kids of West African origin are doing markedly better than kids of Afro Caribbean origin - in the same classes.

    You can poo-poo that. I'm quite interested to know why that would be.
    I'm just pointing out 'the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain' illiterate bullshit is just that.
    Michael Spicer

    https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1377203613538398212

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    I'd certainly like to believe that, despite ongoing issues, the UK is not institutionally racist and has done a better job with some of these issues than others. But it does seem from some of the comments on these threads, even the not automatically negative ones, that some of the report at least may at best miss the point a little.

    Given the high heat vs light ratio of political discussions on race I don't know if it is worth reading the thing.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,052

    kinabalu said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is what the report actually said:

    “There is a new story about the Caribbean experience which speaks to the slave period not only being about profit and suffering but how culturally African people transformed themselves into a re-modelled African/Britain.”

    Also:

    "It said education about the British Empire should focus on how “Britishness” influenced former colonies and those colonies “influenced what we know about modern Britain”."

    Those are the sections causing controversy I think.
    Yes - but more than that.

    The suspicion is that the Report is a cynically manufactured weapon to support the "let's not talk about racism" lobby.

    As if all the progress we've made on racism over the last few decades is down to people not talking about it.
    Aside from the illiteracy, the slavery passage seems to be bigging up the transformative Afro Carribean slave period experience while elsewhere the report compares Afro Carribean black people in the UK negatively with those from Africa.
    Totally fucking incoherent, or at it.
    On the Today programme this morning, one of the people behind the report was saying that kids of West African origin are doing markedly better than kids of Afro Caribbean origin - in the same classes.

    You can poo-poo that. I'm quite interested to know why that would be.
    It's the same with South Asians - Indians do better than white people in school and in earnings after school, which are of course strongly correlated, while Pakistanis and Bangladeshis do much worse. I think the key cause of the performance of different ethnic groups is not white racism, but educational achievement.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,314

    Well I'm officially double jabbed now.

    Give me freedom and liberty now!

    How come? You're a youngster and didn't you have your first recently?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,126
    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    Indeed, I think the starting point for any analysis of any nation looking at involvement in any war should be 'why should we risk shedding our children's blood for this?'
    It gets them out of the house.
    Is that a COVID-specific reason? :dizzy:
    Nah, but I can see that we might undervalue the character building effect of terrifying, deadly border warfare, or a viking raid.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Should what? Remain in NATO? I don't know.

    I'm only pointing out there's a lot of Germanophobia on here.
    Why we should care about the eu......you were the ones making a big thing about us being third countries not us. It is the eu saying the uk can't be trusted on defence matters. So why should we send our young to shed blood for you.

    Its germanophobia its just a logical reaction to your attitude. Well if it isn't what you wanted shouldn't of started it should you.
    Basil Fawlty lives!
    One I never mentioned the war
    Two I never uttered a word that was anti german.

    Instead I merely pointed out if you tell us we can't be trusted with military projects then you can't expect us to come bleed for you. Its simple really. Why should my son go bleed for people that don't think we can be trusted and constantly tell us we are a third country?
    Are we allies or not?

    If we're allies we should be working together.

    If we're allies then we should be identifying our collective threats/enemies and not tying ourselves to them.

    Germany etc have made it abundantly clear they don't view Britain as an ally, and they don't view Russia as an enemy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    edited March 2021
    Leon said:

    Scrap NATO. Let us unite with our English speaking allies and let Europe fend for itself

    On that note, the combined population of the UK, Australia and New Zealand is about to reach 100 million in the next year or so. Interesting factoid. (Or maybe not, with the current restrictions. Might take a bit longer).
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    After the first jab, you're supposed to wait 3 weeks for it to take effect. Is it also 3 weeks after the second jab?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    kle4 said:

    TimT said:

    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kamski said:



    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    CatMan said:

    Am I the only person here who's a bit disturbed at the idea that Brexit now means the UK is effectively not in NATO?

    Possibly. NATO really should have been wound up in 1989.
    Jesus.
    David actually but you know, easy to confuse.... Especially if I can't get a haircut.
    I'll put this down to your account being hacked by a cyberbot.

    Hopefully, the real David will reassert control by the morning and elbow out this Corbynite imitator.
    I may have had a few glasses of wine after my court case finished today but this is no cyberbot.
    I agree with @MaxPB on this actually. We have a painfully small military now and it is getting smaller. We are hugely overcommitted in terms of countries that we have promised to go to the aid of. We have made these promises with a bunch of countries who are not acting like friends, let alone allies. We have legitimate interests to protect but we need to seriously think about what they are. NATO was useful when it tied the US to the defence of Europe and us. They have gone home and have nothing left here. They are not interested. It is not obvious why we should be either.

    I am no pacifist. I am open to the idea of us having a minor role in the Pacific if this helps our trade interests. My enthusiasm for protecting the likes of Germany, however, is very much diminished. Why the hell should we?
    I think the rationale is that it's better to constrain the rise of an expansionary Russia, picking off little states in the East, than to only act when Russia has become the continental hegemon.

    It's not Germany we're protecting, but ourselves.
    Is it though? What threat does Russia pose to this island nation? I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested to know how Russia becoming the continental hegemon is any different to now. A diminished EU is probably to our advantage, if we're playing the zero sum game.
    We want a prosperous, peaceful neighbor.

    It is unclear that a Europe dominated by Russia would be either of those things.
    Hmm, I'm not as sure about the first point. In isolation that makes some sense, but the EU as an organisation has become hostile towards the UK so their success may necessarily come at our expense. Not to suggest Russia would be better, however, a severely weakened EU would be better for us.
    The EU may be acting pissy towards us over Brexit right now but they haven't got a record of flagrantly murdering people on British soil and trolling us with laughable excuses about cathedrals. There's no question which is the more hostile power to the UK.
    Brexit has clearly addled Max's brain. He doesn't care so long as it's bad for the Germans.
    Is there a reason why we should as the eu are quite fond of pointing out they are a third country to us now
    Its about the UK dealing with an agressive and expansionist hostile state in its neighbourhood, nothing to do with the EU. Ukraine isn't in the EU, but it is an ally of the UK.
    You're right, but the only thing these people care about is being against the Germans.
    Indeed, I think the starting point for any analysis of any nation looking at involvement in any war should be 'why should we risk shedding our children's blood for this?'
    It gets them out of the house.
    Is that a COVID-specific reason? :dizzy:
    Nah, but I can see that we might undervalue the character building effect of terrifying, deadly border warfare, or a viking raid.
    Sparta!!!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Scrap NATO. Let us unite with our English speaking allies and let Europe fend for itself

    On that note, the combined population of the UK, Australia and New Zealand is about to reach 100 million in the next year or so. Interesting factoid.
    Since the turn of the century Australia's population has shot up by more than a third.

    In the same time Germany's has gone up by 3%
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    Andy_JS said:

    After the first jab, you're supposed to wait 3 weeks for it to take effect. Is it also 3 weeks after the second jab?

    2 weeks.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,191
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'd certainly like to believe that, despite ongoing issues, the UK is not institutionally racist and has done a better job with some of these issues than others. But it does seem from some of the comments on these threads, even the not automatically negative ones, that some of the report at least may at best miss the point a little.

    Given the high heat vs light ratio of political discussions on race I don't know if it is worth reading the thing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

    gives the lie to people like roger who hold up france as a beacon of civillised tolerance. The uk always seems to come out near the top in such surveys. Doesn't mean there aren't problems but we aren't the knuckle dragging xenophobes that the left tries to portray us as
    I'd say Britain is on the whole less racist than Germany. But racism and xenophobia aren't quite the same thing. The palpable hatred of so many people on here for the Germans or the French isn't racism, it's xenophobia.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    TimT said:

    Andy_JS said:

    After the first jab, you're supposed to wait 3 weeks for it to take effect. Is it also 3 weeks after the second jab?

    2 weeks.
    PS After about 6-8 days from first jab, immunity starts to build. It reaches a maximum from the first shot after about 3 weeks. Maximum protection is reached about 14 days after the second jab.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    kamski said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    I'd certainly like to believe that, despite ongoing issues, the UK is not institutionally racist and has done a better job with some of these issues than others. But it does seem from some of the comments on these threads, even the not automatically negative ones, that some of the report at least may at best miss the point a little.

    Given the high heat vs light ratio of political discussions on race I don't know if it is worth reading the thing.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/

    gives the lie to people like roger who hold up france as a beacon of civillised tolerance. The uk always seems to come out near the top in such surveys. Doesn't mean there aren't problems but we aren't the knuckle dragging xenophobes that the left tries to portray us as
    I'd say Britain is on the whole less racist than Germany. But racism and xenophobia aren't quite the same thing. The palpable hatred of so many people on here for the Germans or the French isn't racism, it's xenophobia.
    I really don't see a lot of people on here hating the Germans. There are certainly a lot on here aghast at recent German behaviour - press and politicians - in relation to COVID. I see a lot of upset about the process of Brexit, in which the UK surely shares blame. I see envy at Germany's success and dominant position in Europe and, perhaps because of this, schadenfreude when Germany is shown to be less than perfect in something, like today's football. But, apart from the wilder rantings of one or two posters, I really don't see hatred towards Germany.

    Could you point me to specific examples?
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    I’m struggling to believe my eyes regarding the KKK image Clive Lewis has tweeted tonight. Labour are in such a bad place right now and on the wrong side of so many arguments. I feel sorry for Keir in a way, I believe he’s broadly an OK guy flanked by some absolute lunatics.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Brom said:

    I’m struggling to believe my eyes regarding the KKK image Clive Lewis has tweeted tonight. Labour are in such a bad place right now and on the wrong side of so many arguments. I feel sorry for Keir in a way, I believe he’s broadly an OK guy flanked by some absolute lunatics.

    Here it is:

    https://twitter.com/labourlewis/status/1377344415681814528
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    kinabalu said:

    Interesting way of phrasing the criticism as well... Don't do this, because it's not British.

    Beginning to unwrap the flag off the government.
    Yes - quite cute.
    Not rally sure what the problem is there.

    Systems are different, and using the name of a country to describe how a country works seems perfectly reasonable.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Lots of people love wild swimming and enjoy articles and books about wild swimming. I own several. That the Guardian shouldn't publish features on wild swimming because a few nesh PBers don't like wild swimming is the epitome of an 'Only On PB' moment.

    People have strong opinions on "wild swimming"?
    Never heard of wild swimming before. What's the difference between wild swimming and — just swimming?
    Wild swimming is done in the middle of winter in the middle of nowhere, for example, the well named Loch Frisa on Mull, and it clears the mind. And turns you blue. You soon notice the difference between it and a fortnight in Magaluf. One is supposed to be spiritually more uplifting but I can't recall which.

    Wild swimming is in rivers and lakes, often with a wetsuit, and there are some trainspotter types who want to swim in lots of places and keep a sad-list.

    You need Doxy's Pool, in the Peaks.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    Andy_JS said:

    Sky News: "Paris's new vaccination centre will open next week and do 1,500 jabs a day."

    That I think illustrates the problem - depth of infrastructure.

    My mass vaccination centre in Mansfield is geared up for 2000 a day.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I can't be the only one who wants @Dura_Ace 's comical take on the Russia/Ukraine situation?

    There's also a big Chinese naval build up just outside the Philippines exclusive economic zone so maybe it's a coordinated action. I can't recall whether pb tories consider the Filipino/as to be honorary white people like they do Japan and Korea so it's hard to say what the response will be.

    If the UK doesn't want to take 10,000 KIAs to defend Riga from the 2nd Mechanised Rapist Division of the Russian army then the UK needs to withdraw from NATO. The eastern European defence commitments HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU. If you don't want to do it you have to leave NATO.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,227
    edited April 2021

    Leon said:

    France looking opening up the cultural/food sectors in Mid May.

    Just like Le Royaume-Uni.

    I'm not sure. He said terraces are opening in Mid May - i.e. what we are doing mid April. In mid May we will be allowed to sit inside.

    Sounds like they are about a month behind, which makes sense with this extra month of lockdown
    Looking at the history of the UK lockdown, however, are four weeks(-ish - the schools will be back in three) going to be enough? I know that they start with the advantage of being some distance into their vaccination project, but even in that regard France is only where the UK was - in terms of the proportion of the population to have been given a vaccine - at the end of January, and their upwards trajectory is much shallower.

    Assuming that the unlocking sequence in England happens on schedule, it'll have been three full months from peak mortality to beer gardens. Assuming that the French epidemic follows the pattern of our January disaster, and peak mortality therefore comes about a fortnight into national lockdown, then they're proposing to make that transition in only one month. It doesn't seem realistic.
    I would say that they are going to have to extend fairly full lockdown until well into May or June. Or pay the price beyond what is already locked in.

    The trigger points for them will be the same as us - 15m people done for very old and very vulnerable. Plus 3 weeks. And 32m for 50+ and just vulnerable, plus 3 weeks. Assuming maximum efficiency in giving jabs by medical risk.

    France is currently at 8m people (people, not jabs) with at least one jab.

    And running at a million more people every six days. So that is 15 million by the middle of May at that rate, or end of April if they boost their average by 50%. Plus 3 weeks to develop resistance.

    Like for like imo they are more like 3 months behind.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    Cyclefree said:

    I have come to this late. But if this really does reflect what the British people want - a sort of social credit-cum-ID scheme - similar to what China has then I am very very disappointed.

    Worse - I am fearful for the future. Because this really means the end of any sort of real freedom - if we can only live our lives with the permission of the state.

    The good news is that both Ed Davey and Keir Starmer seem to be taking a stand against it, which is a brave move if public opinion is heavily in the other direction.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,870
    Dura_Ace said:

    I can't be the only one who wants @Dura_Ace 's comical take on the Russia/Ukraine situation?

    There's also a big Chinese naval build up just outside the Philippines exclusive economic zone so maybe it's a coordinated action. I can't recall whether pb tories consider the Filipino/as to be honorary white people like they do Japan and Korea so it's hard to say what the response will be.

    If the UK doesn't want to take 10,000 KIAs to defend Riga from the 2nd Mechanised Rapist Division of the Russian army then the UK needs to withdraw from NATO. The eastern European defence commitments HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EU. If you don't want to do it you have to leave NATO.
    Well they have English as an official lingo in the Philippines. Innit!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    kle4 said:

    I do wonder how many PBers get through life, their being triggered by a perfectly reasonable and benign term such as wild swimming.

    Absolutely bizarre.

    This is not a criticism as we all have our quirks, but having followed the entire discussion no one seems to be triggered more by ensuring people use the 'correct' terminology than you, indeed you've gone out of your way to pick a fight on it when some are merely expressing bafflement on a term they had not come across.

    Far from an 'Only on PB' thing it appears to be an Anabobazina thing - you are the one exercised, and indeed insistent, that people use the terms you want them to use...in relation to camping and swimming.

    I don't think it viable to be the most emotional ("talking shite" etc) and insistent on a trivial matter, then insist others are the ones reacting bizarrely.
    Wrong. It’s the usual PB sneering by the usual sneerers. They should try it, and get out more.
    Wow! Hypocrisy alert level just reached 100,000! The people of Mansfield say hello.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,586
    "Pfizer accuses Brussels of holding back Covid vaccine effort" {£}

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trial-pfizer-covid-vaccine-teenagers-results-5rrs9mmgx
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Scott_xP said:
    He's planting his flag on another losing bandwagon........
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,201
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    alex_ said:



    Scott_xP said:
    Not that i know anything about the background to this report, its origins, how and why it came to its conclusions, or what actually it says, i'm interested to know how it is possible to construct a report about race relations that won't have somebody somewhere criticising it as "divisive"...
    I prefer "monumental epic bullshit" -
    https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1377304628484792327
    Most of the people writing the report were black or Asian.
    As are many of the people who disagree with it.
This discussion has been closed.