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New Ipsos “Vaccine Passport” polling finds strong support across a wide range of activities – politi

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited March 31 in General
imageNew Ipsos “Vaccine Passport” polling finds strong support across a wide range of activities – politicalbetting.com

The British public, according to this survey, seem to have a very strong desire to impose the most extraordinary regime on everybody as we edge out of lockdown. If all or many of these these were to be implemented we would soon realise the scale of controls on our lives.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 91,671
    edited March 31
    As a great libertarian I find this disappointing but yet not unsurprising.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    I felt pretty reassured on this topic by a tweet pointing out the civil service and NHS app chaps haven't got a prayer of being competant enough to roll this out before October, by which time if the polling on this hasn't flipped then the world really will have gone mad.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    But as Mike says, a 'solution' in search of a problem. Unnecessary, and pretty outrageous - unfortunately this is just the result of the government working out they will only be blamed for under-reacting and never for over-restricting
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363

    Well I'm officially double jabbed now.

    Give me freedom and liberty now!

    All jabbed up with nowhere to go.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681
    Speaking as someone who is wrong about most things, I raised the question of vaccine passports and privacy issues on here months ago. I really do not understand why HMG is only just thinking about it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 13,481
    So it has happened.

    First doses 224,590
    Second doses 270,526

    Crossover!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,471
    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
  • Well I'm officially double jabbed now.

    Give me freedom and liberty now!

    All jabbed up with nowhere to go.
    Manchester next month.

    Blackpool, London, Sussex, and somewhere else in the summer.

    Then Glasgow and Alnwick in the autumn.

    I'm actually looking forward to a break in Blackpool.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 9,999

    As a great libertarian I find this disappointing but yet not unsurprising.

    Does the MP for Haltemprice and Howden need to be preparing for a vanity by-election?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 13,481
    Two neighbours just back from getting their second shots of AZ - a week or two earlier than they were expecting.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681

    Well I'm officially double jabbed now.

    Give me freedom and liberty now!

    You are safe to go out and get a job with Deliveroo. Be quick!
  • Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    I think the public aren't authoritarian per se it is just they are very anti not dying from the plague.

    I suspect once we go a couple of winters without too much problems and/or avoid new variants support for this stuff will dissipate.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    and in this case they won't get any. We're well on course for a vaccination level which will comfortably generate herd immunity even without having to set up a surveillance state. Shows the complete lack of perspective in current government / civil service thinking to be even floating this when we've never taking any even mild steps against people refusing other vaccines for more seriously illnesses.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 39,777

    Well I'm officially double jabbed now.

    Give me freedom and liberty now!

    Well, in a fortnight....
  • Two neighbours just back from getting their second shots of AZ - a week or two earlier than they were expecting.

    My Pfizer one was brought forward, I was expecting to receive mine at the end of April, hurrah for Ursula von der Leyen playing silly beggars with vaccine export bans forcing the government to prioritise second jabs.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,376
    edited March 31
    The question doesn't ask people whether they're just in favour of it until about 95% of people have been vaccinated.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    edited March 31

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries need a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    Paper would be fine. What is being suggested is it is done through the NHS app, or with a paper barcode alternative, both allowing the government to continue track and trace, for our own good.

    Your last point is risible - whether or not the 5% of hold outs get vaccinated, the sort of normal public spaces we're talking about will be perfectly safe for everyone to enjoy in the way we used to do.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058
    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,526
    maaarsh said:

    But as Mike says, a 'solution' in search of a problem. Unnecessary, and pretty outrageous - unfortunately this is just the result of the government working out they will only be blamed for under-reacting and never for over-restricting

    Yes, exactly, a solution in search of a problem - much like the original ID card proposals from the Blair era.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,195

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    It's not the bit of paper. It's that the government have got the same geniuses that built the terrible NHS App doing it. It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,526
    If you're not familiar with Richard Lister's data, this is a graph he produces daily - gives a slightly happier picture of the trend in positive tests, https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1377279194527322115/photo/1
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 11,097
    I think the response depends on what a "Vaccine passport" is. If, as Richard N says, it is a piece of paper giving your name and confirming the jab, then I would support it for at least some of these things.

    As a verified young person, would I really be banned from public transport just because we haven't got to me yet?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363
    maaarsh said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries need a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    Paper would be fine. What is being suggested is it is done through the NHS app, or with a paper barcode alternative, both allowing the government to continue track and trace, for our own good.
    Only if the tracking infrastructure is in place, and why should it be? If the objection is to tracking, then object to tracking (I would agree with that). Don't object to 'vaccine passports', which don't need tracking, and I'm quite certain won't have it, for the very good reason that it would take years to set up the infrastructure.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 2,957
    edited March 31
    It is an extraordinary paradox of the UK population that it is deeply resistant to fascism/totalitarianism while always answering individual questions on a basis which suggests that Stalin was a bit of a softie.

    I suppose it is about dealing with questions one at a time, and how it is put. If you went up to people and said: "Do you want this following list of 83 different everyday activities, like having a haircut, to be a crime unless you have a government issued permit allowing it" you may get a saner answer.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,204

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,174
    Wonder if any voters will see "John Prescott" on the Hartlepool ballot and tick the box thinking it's the old bruiser who used to represent Hull.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    Cookie said:

    If you're not familiar with Richard Lister's data, this is a graph he produces daily - gives a slightly happier picture of the trend in positive tests, https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1377279194527322115/photo/1

    Indeed - PCR trend down likely to accelerate now it's no longer being fed with school LFD positives - less good for finding all cases, but better for showing an accurate like for like trend.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK cases by specimen date and scaled to 100k population

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK case summary

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    image
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 1,319
    Andy_JS said:

    The question doesn't ask people whether they're just in favour of it until about 95% of people have been vaccinated.

    Where do we now think vaccine uptake rates will level out for Uk adults? Before it started I’d have been happy to see 70% but it’s going to end up considerably above that isn’t it.

    We’re at almost 59% of all adults today. In England as of 21st March we were at 93% for the 60s and even higher for those older.

    80% for the 55-59s and 65% for the 50-54s, presumably both of which will have crept up substantially the next time data is reported.

    Is mid 80% a realistic goal do we think? Add on a bit more from acquired immunity, sarscov2 is going to have a very hard job indeed in this country.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK Hospitals

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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363
    edited March 31
    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK deaths

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    UK R

    from cases

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    from hospitalisations

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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 65,174
    maaarsh said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    and in this case they won't get any. We're well on course for a vaccination level which will comfortably generate herd immunity even without having to set up a surveillance state. Shows the complete lack of perspective in current government / civil service thinking to be even floating this when we've never taking any even mild steps against people refusing other vaccines for more seriously illnesses.
    What err illnesses are these ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    Age related data

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    Age related data scaled to 100k per age group

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    Vaccinations

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 13,383
    England CFR

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  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 20,042
    edited March 31

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    See? You eschew absolutism with your principles when it suits you. Just like I said.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,195

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 14,627
    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    Provoking a conflict to try and stop the pipeline?
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607

    As a great libertarian I find this disappointing but yet not unsurprising.

    Does the MP for Haltemprice and Howden need to be preparing for a vanity by-election?
    Judging by the polls he'd probably lose - and serve him right.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 9,291

    I think the response depends on what a "Vaccine passport" is. If, as Richard N says, it is a piece of paper giving your name and confirming the jab, then I would support it for at least some of these things.

    As a verified young person, would I really be banned from public transport just because we haven't got to me yet?

    Depends if your journey is for the purposes of providing services to the not so young in which case its absolutely fine and to be applauded, or if it is for your own pleasure, in which case its selfish and risky.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,526

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    Are you tracked by the state with your smartphone though? Presumably some sort of warrant would be needed to access that data?
    And you can go to the pub without your phone. Your phone is a convenience only to you which you can choose to be with or not.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    Pulpstar said:

    maaarsh said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    and in this case they won't get any. We're well on course for a vaccination level which will comfortably generate herd immunity even without having to set up a surveillance state. Shows the complete lack of perspective in current government / civil service thinking to be even floating this when we've never taking any even mild steps against people refusing other vaccines for more seriously illnesses.
    What err illnesses are these ?
    Meningitis has a slightly higher case fatality rate than Covid...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
    Indeed. So why do you think this proposal would give the state the right to know what you've been up to without a warrant and due process? This is conspiracy-theory nonsense: no-one is suggesting the state should be able to track you.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    It's the same as the obsession against ID cards in the UK - they are so useful in Spain - almost make we want to go for citizenship to get one!
  • CookieCookie Posts: 2,526
    maaarsh said:

    Cookie said:

    If you're not familiar with Richard Lister's data, this is a graph he produces daily - gives a slightly happier picture of the trend in positive tests, https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1377279194527322115/photo/1

    Indeed - PCR trend down likely to accelerate now it's no longer being fed with school LFD positives - less good for finding all cases, but better for showing an accurate like for like trend.
    Yes - although I'm dubious about the extent to which positive tests in schools are likely to be 'cases' - this, article, for example, explains how the vast majority of positives in schools are likely to be false positives.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2021/03/30/vast-majority-positive-covid-tests-taken-schools-likely-false/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    maaarsh said:

    Pulpstar said:

    maaarsh said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    and in this case they won't get any. We're well on course for a vaccination level which will comfortably generate herd immunity even without having to set up a surveillance state. Shows the complete lack of perspective in current government / civil service thinking to be even floating this when we've never taking any even mild steps against people refusing other vaccines for more seriously illnesses.
    What err illnesses are these ?
    Meningitis has a slightly higher case fatality rate than Covid...
    Thought it's nowhere near as infectious.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607
    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    The tanks are just bringing essential vaccines to Germany..honest guv you can trust Putin......
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 1,781
    Cookie said:

    maaarsh said:

    Cookie said:

    If you're not familiar with Richard Lister's data, this is a graph he produces daily - gives a slightly happier picture of the trend in positive tests, https://twitter.com/RP131/status/1377279194527322115/photo/1

    Indeed - PCR trend down likely to accelerate now it's no longer being fed with school LFD positives - less good for finding all cases, but better for showing an accurate like for like trend.
    Yes - although I'm dubious about the extent to which positive tests in schools are likely to be 'cases' - this, article, for example, explains how the vast majority of positives in schools are likely to be false positives.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2021/03/30/vast-majority-positive-covid-tests-taken-schools-likely-false/
    Well yes, you can see the ratio of Orange to light blue on the chart - since they started the testing drive they've never got near half the LFD positives getting confirmed, when it was over 2/3rds back in Jan.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 9,291

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    Why on earth is that the alternative? The govt roadmap written just a few weeks ago, and since when the good news on covid has outweighed the bad, had all restrictions ending in June. Whats changed, apart from the govt thinking they can pick up some quick votes by being increasingly authoritarian?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,195
    edited March 31

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
    Indeed. So why do you think this proposal would give the state the right to know what you've been up to without a warrant and due process? This is conspiracy-theory nonsense: no-one is suggesting the state should be able to track you.
    Except the state is building an app with QR codes and database checks. It is population tracking however you want to cut it. Your naïvety is shocking, and your trust in the establishment is once again predictably disappointing.

    They will have the data already. No need for any of the processes that protect us from state intrusion if we just hand it over to them.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 13,481
    FPT, I noticed that I was referred to as some sort of quasi-Tory Authoritarian. Outrageous!

    Actually, I have been accused of being in the wrong party a couple of times at branch meetings. Once it was UKIP, another time it was the Greens. Never the Tories though.

    BTW, these twats littering our parks up and down the land should be put in the stocks. Or be birched. Or both. At the same time. They are just reinforcing my contempt and disdain for humankind.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    Quite crackers, but will fade away, for the reasons that @maaarsh and @MikeSmithson so eloquently advance. By the time any of the tech-muppets in the government come up with a workable system, there will be no need for vaxports. So it's a favourable Catch-22.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,641
    edited March 31

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    Yes I see this. If 70% of people will spend in places where there is this policy and, say, 50% of people will spend if there isn't this policy then it makes sense to have the policy.

    I disagree with it vehemently. Plus everyone in the UK will need to have had both jabs including the children so where does that take us to time-wise?

    And this is of course a natural policy option from a government which has seen the public lap up every restrictive measure without question since this thing began.

    Including many, many here on PB.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,471

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    It is a ludicrous and unnecessary idea. Will you be insisting that everyone who works in a venue or a pub is vaccinated? Are you going to sack those who are not? As I said earlier today, this is not care home workers or NHS staff working with the vulnerable. Will it be extended to shops? Will all shop workers have to be vaccinated by law? If not why not? It is the only way your moronic passport makes any practical sense.

    There is no logical public health reason for having vaccination passports within the country. If you think there is then I suggest you go and read the history of the smallpox outbreaks of the 1950s and 60s when a similar schemes were suggested and rejected as being impractical and a sign of state overreach - and that was for a disease with a CFR of 30%.

    The only reason for having such schemes is state oversight of our movements. That will never be acceptable. Meanwhile Covid will become endemic like flu and something we learn to live with.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363
    edited March 31
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
    Indeed. So why do you think this proposal would give the state the right to know what you've been up to without a warrant and due process? This is conspiracy-theory nonsense: no-one is suggesting the state should be able to track you.
    Except a state is building an app with QR codes and database checks. It is population tracking however you want to cut it. Your naïvety is shocking, and your trust in the establishment is once again predictably disappointing.
    But you've just said that you're not tracked by the state at the moment. So you seem to be the naive one, who trusts the establishment.

    Anyway, so don't install the app, if you trust Facebook and Twitter more than the state. No-one is suggesting it will be compulsory. it will just give you options which you wouldn't otherwise have. Or use the paper-based alternative, which is certain to be available,
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607

    FPT, I noticed that I was referred to as some sort of quasi-Tory Authoritarian. Outrageous!

    Actually, I have been accused of being in the wrong party a couple of times at branch meetings. Once it was UKIP, another time it was the Greens. Never the Tories though.

    BTW, these twats littering our parks up and down the land should be put in the stocks. Or be birched. Or both. At the same time. They are just reinforcing my contempt and disdain for humankind.

    Your'e clearly on the cusp - go on you know you want to really, the vaccine chip is doing its magic, your blood is turning blue...........
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 6,681

    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    Provoking a conflict to try and stop the pipeline?
    You think President Biden is moving Russian tanks to the border?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171

    FPT, I noticed that I was referred to as some sort of quasi-Tory Authoritarian. Outrageous!

    Actually, I have been accused of being in the wrong party a couple of times at branch meetings. Once it was UKIP, another time it was the Greens. Never the Tories though.

    BTW, these twats littering our parks up and down the land should be put in the stocks. Or be birched. Or both. At the same time. They are just reinforcing my contempt and disdain for humankind.

    I said authoritarian, I said nothing about your being a Tory.
  • isamisam Posts: 35,492
    kinabalu said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    See? You eschew absolutism with your principles when it suits you. Just like I said.
    £[email protected]/1 agreed 👍🏻
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    Why on earth is that the alternative? The govt roadmap written just a few weeks ago, and since when the good news on covid has outweighed the bad, had all restrictions ending in June. Whats changed, apart from the govt thinking they can pick up some quick votes by being increasingly authoritarian?
    The reason why that might be the alternative is if we get to an intermediate stage where it's not possible to abandon all restrictions on places like theatres or pubs. That will depend on exactly how cases develop, how many people get vaccinated, and what nasty variants of the virus appear. Obviously, if by 21st June we can do away with all restrictions, then great. I can't imagine anything Boris would like more, TBH. But if it doesn't work out quite that well, then this is a better alternative than banning the venues altogether.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 800

    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    Provoking a conflict to try and stop the pipeline?
    Well, who's doing the provoking? At any rate, places Merkel in an "interesting" spot.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,471

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    As I said a few days ago a bit of paper is no issue. Accept of course people lose bits of paper and they get forged. What is an issue is electronic surveillance and the ability of the Government to track where we go and what we do with impunity - the phone argument doesn't apply as there are legal barriers to the Government using such data without oversight and no one can demand to se your phone. Moreover plenty of people use burners to avid being tracked.

    And as I have said it is utterly pointless unless you ae going to sack every staff member of every shop, pub, club and theatre in the country who hasn't ben vaccinated.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058

    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    Provoking a conflict to try and stop the pipeline?
    You think President Biden is moving Russian tanks to the border?
    I bet Luckyguy is a big fan of the Duran You tube channel - just a hunch
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 23,471

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    That all assumes that the majority of people have thought through the implications to make those calculations. The vast majority have not.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171
    Who cares? He's already said this. Who would want someone who lost the popular vote by millions two elections in a row?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 13,058

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
    Indeed. So why do you think this proposal would give the state the right to know what you've been up to without a warrant and due process? This is conspiracy-theory nonsense: no-one is suggesting the state should be able to track you.
    Except a state is building an app with QR codes and database checks. It is population tracking however you want to cut it. Your naïvety is shocking, and your trust in the establishment is once again predictably disappointing.
    But you've just said that you're not tracked by the state at the moment. So you seem to be the naive one, who trusts the establishment.

    Anyway, so don't install the app, if you trust Facebook and Twitter more than the state. No-one is suggesting it will be compulsory. it will just give you options which you wouldn't otherwise have. Or use the paper-based alternative, which is certain to be available,
    A mate of mines new girlfriend was accused by his ex wife of physical abuse to my mates kids

    The Police accepted she was innocent based on review of her location at the time of alleged incidents - by reference to mobile phone records

    This was over 5 years ago.......
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,158
    felix said:

    Floater said:

    uh oh

    https://twitter.com/theragex/status/1377221037495103489

    Apparent corroboration

    https://www.forexlive.com/news/!/us-euro-command-has-raised-its-alert-level-following-the-build-up-of-russian-ukraine-20210331

    I have seen many videos now of Russian military equipment being deployed to Crimea and border of Ukraine

    4 Ukrainian servicemen (one a LT Colonel) were killed in last few days

    The tanks are just bringing essential vaccines to Germany..honest guv you can trust Putin......
    Looks like the Russians’ european cathedral appreciation society to me.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 27,195

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    I'm tracked by a private company, not the state. If the state wants to know what I've been up to it needs to have just cause, get a warrant and give me due process. This idea that "lol you have a phone which is tracked anyway" is just bullshit.
    Indeed. So why do you think this proposal would give the state the right to know what you've been up to without a warrant and due process? This is conspiracy-theory nonsense: no-one is suggesting the state should be able to track you.
    Except a state is building an app with QR codes and database checks. It is population tracking however you want to cut it. Your naïvety is shocking, and your trust in the establishment is once again predictably disappointing.
    But you've just said that you're not tracked by the state at the moment. So you seem to be the naive one, who trusts the establishment.

    Anyway, so don't install the app, if you trust Facebook and Twitter more than the state. No-one is suggesting it will be compulsory. it will just give you options which you wouldn't otherwise have. Or use the paper-based alternative, which is certain to be available,
    Having the spooks look into my data is a completely different prospect to giving government departments access to my movements.

    How do I go to the pub if the government is going to require the vaccine passport to go there? The objection is that I have no intention of giving the state a way to track where I go or what I do. The vaccine passport is going to do that and do it under the guise of "saving the NHS" to get people to accept it. I installed the original NHS app becuase the data didn't sit with the state and there was real need to get people to isolate. Once we've all been jabbed what's the point of it?

    Once again, I'm not suggesting I wouldn't have one for overseas travel, that seems entirely reasonable, it's the domestic use and the proposal to do it via an app with positional data tracking that's the problem and not even a hint of it being time limited. I'm hoping that the app doesn't work and then once they fix it we don't need it.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171
    edited March 31

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    It is a ludicrous and unnecessary idea. Will you be insisting that everyone who works in a venue or a pub is vaccinated? Are you going to sack those who are not? As I said earlier today, this is not care home workers or NHS staff working with the vulnerable. Will it be extended to shops? Will all shop workers have to be vaccinated by law? If not why not? It is the only way your moronic passport makes any practical sense.

    There is no logical public health reason for having vaccination passports within the country. If you think there is then I suggest you go and read the history of the smallpox outbreaks of the 1950s and 60s when a similar schemes were suggested and rejected as being impractical and a sign of state overreach - and that was for a disease with a CFR of 30%.

    The only reason for having such schemes is state oversight of our movements. That will never be acceptable. Meanwhile Covid will become endemic like flu and something we learn to live with.
    I read somewhere the other day that the average age of a barmaid in London is 24. I have no idea if it's right, although it seems about right. Could be something of a recruitment challenge under these proposals...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,641

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    As I said a few days ago a bit of paper is no issue. Accept of course people lose bits of paper and they get forged. What is an issue is electronic surveillance and the ability of the Government to track where we go and what we do with impunity - the phone argument doesn't apply as there are legal barriers to the Government using such data without oversight and no one can demand to se your phone. Moreover plenty of people use burners to avid being tracked.

    And as I have said it is utterly pointless unless you ae going to sack every staff member of every shop, pub, club and theatre in the country who hasn't ben vaccinated.
    I think it might start out, if it becomes any kind of a thing, as showing the card you get with the jabs. After two weeks that will be applied farcically sporadically and be quietly abandoned.

    Is my guess.

    But all the govt has to do is look at the list of restrictive measures over the past year side by side with its position in the opinion polls. Why wouldn't it tack to the more authoritarian stance?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 3,398

    MaxPB said:

    It is population tracking with checking into venues and the state knowing everything you do.

    Citation needed (and I mean a citation from someone in the know, not scare-mongering by the usual suspects).

    Plus, as others have pointed out, if you carry a smart phone, you're already tracked in far, far more detail. And if you don't like it, don't carry the smart phone or the vaccine passport, and don't go to the venue. You haven't lost anything compared with the alternative, which is that the venue is closed.
    Why on earth is that the alternative? The govt roadmap written just a few weeks ago, and since when the good news on covid has outweighed the bad, had all restrictions ending in June. Whats changed, apart from the govt thinking they can pick up some quick votes by being increasingly authoritarian?
    The reason why that might be the alternative is if we get to an intermediate stage where it's not possible to abandon all restrictions on places like theatres or pubs. That will depend on exactly how cases develop, how many people get vaccinated, and what nasty variants of the virus appear. Obviously, if by 21st June we can do away with all restrictions, then great. I can't imagine anything Boris would like more, TBH. But if it doesn't work out quite that well, then this is a better alternative than banning the venues altogether.
    Bollocks venues will be open in june vaxport or no vaxport. They won't be granting options you don't already have they will be restricting options for people that refuse them. Businesses have already indicated they don't want them.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 27,641
    Plus of course as that good Atlantic (?) article pointed out, it looks like there could be some miniscule risk with the vaccine. But no matter how small the govt would be in the position of forcing people to take that risk.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 28,363


    It is a ludicrous and unnecessary idea. Will you be insisting that everyone who works in a venue or a pub is vaccinated? Are you going to sack those who are not? As I said earlier today, this is not care home workers or NHS staff working with the vulnerable. Will it be extended to shops? Will all shop workers have to be vaccinated by law? If not why not? It is the only way your moronic passport makes any practical sense.

    There is no logical public health reason for having vaccination passports within the country. If you think there is then I suggest you go and read the history of the smallpox outbreaks of the 1950s and 60s when a similar schemes were suggested and rejected as being impractical and a sign of state overreach - and that was for a disease with a CFR of 30%.

    The only reason for having such schemes is state oversight of our movements. That will never be acceptable. Meanwhile Covid will become endemic like flu and something we learn to live with.

    Well, it's clearly not a 'ludicrous and unnecessary idea', if the level of the pandemic is such that places have to be closed without it. So you are talking utter nonsense.

    To answer your specific questions (all to be taken in the context where there's still a lot of cases and a largish proportion of unvaccinated people so we can't just relax the restrictions altogether):

    Yes, it might be necessary for people working in pubs to be vaccinated, if that's the only safe way the pub can operate, since they are known to be a super-spreader venues. This measure protects their jobs, so I'm unclear what your point about sacking them is. They'll be sacked if the pub can't operate because people like you have prevented this solution from being applied.

    No, it won't be necessary for shop workers to be vaccinated, because we know the risk is minimal if they are operated carefully.

    Yes, we might have to live with it. This is exactly why the idea has to be considered.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996

    As a great libertarian I find this disappointing but yet not unsurprising.

    This is like how Britons support the toughest sentences and punishments for offenders, and throw away the key for good measure, but go all gooey when they have personal experience of the criminal justice system.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,204
    edited March 31
    kinabalu said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    See? You eschew absolutism with your principles when it suits you. Just like I said.
    Hm, this is what I get for trying to be reasonable. In any case, I've never defended an absolutist libertarian position when it comes to physical behaviour - certainly not during a temporary public health emergency like this one. I'm much more concerned with the growing threat to intellectual freedoms from the left, which are frankly what matter in the long term and in respect of which I'm happy to take a position much closer to absolutism all day long.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 20,042
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    But the calculus on the liberty side isn't quite as straightforward in this case: if people feel that the certainty of being able to eat or travel or work out in a safe environment enhances their positive liberty (freedom to do what they like), they may accept a reduction in their negative liberty (freedom from state intrusion). For most activities I'd rather let the public decide by expressing their preferences via the free market rather than have the government impose vaxports on everything, but the underlying motivations aren't completely irrational.
    See? You eschew absolutism with your principles when it suits you. Just like I said.
    £[email protected]/1 agreed 👍🏻
    Yep. And I'm sure we're on the same page but just to be sure -

    If the next GE results in PM Starmer you owe me £300.
    If it doesn't I owe you £100.

    Literally that. Not "Next PM". If, say, Johnson is replaced by Sunak before the GE, our bet is unaffected.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 10,376

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    I don't think anyone would have a problem with showing a bit of paper. I'd be surprised if that's what the government has in mind.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 13,481

    FPT, I noticed that I was referred to as some sort of quasi-Tory Authoritarian. Outrageous!

    Actually, I have been accused of being in the wrong party a couple of times at branch meetings. Once it was UKIP, another time it was the Greens. Never the Tories though.

    BTW, these twats littering our parks up and down the land should be put in the stocks. Or be birched. Or both. At the same time. They are just reinforcing my contempt and disdain for humankind.

    I said authoritarian, I said nothing about your being a Tory.
    Indeed. It was the response to your post that added the Tory suggestion.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 40,996
    Why? Dick waving or is Putin planning a blitzkrieg?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 11,109
    Anyone know, or care to speculate on what is going on?
    First I've heard of it.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 8,171

    FPT, I noticed that I was referred to as some sort of quasi-Tory Authoritarian. Outrageous!

    Actually, I have been accused of being in the wrong party a couple of times at branch meetings. Once it was UKIP, another time it was the Greens. Never the Tories though.

    BTW, these twats littering our parks up and down the land should be put in the stocks. Or be birched. Or both. At the same time. They are just reinforcing my contempt and disdain for humankind.

    I said authoritarian, I said nothing about your being a Tory.
    Indeed. It was the response to your post that added the Tory suggestion.
    Ah I didn't see it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 30,288
    Andy_JS said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    I don't think anyone would have a problem with showing a bit of paper. I'd be surprised if that's what the government has in mind.
    I already have a bit of paper they gave me with my first vaccination.
  • felixfelix Posts: 12,607
    Cookie said:

    felix said:

    Very sad. I have always known I was out of tune with the majority of the public on a lot of issues but I never thought they were quite this blind to the inherent dangers of such systems.

    "“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

    What's the danger of having a a bit of paper showing you've had a jab?

    I really don't get what on earth people are worried about here. Youngsters need a card to get into a pub already. Oldies have bus passes. Anyone who has travelled to some countries needs a Yellow Fever certificate. What on earth is the problem of having a certificate showing you're not a danger entering a non-socially-distanced event today? No-one is being forced to have a jab, no-one will be forced to have a certificate, and - most crucially of all - no-one will be denied entry to somewhere where they might have gone anyway, since without the vaccine passports these places would be shut completely, by law or because they are not viable with social distancing.
    It's the same as the obsession against ID cards in the UK - they are so useful in Spain - almost make we want to go for citizenship to get one!
    Useful what for?
    I can see they would be useful to the police, if, for example, you had come from the next county to go for a walk around a reservoir. Or sitting on a park bench. Or giving a birthday party for a child.
    The behaviour of the state over the last 12 months is exactly why we should be resisting with every sinew giving them more power.
    They are used all the time to renew licences, log-on to bank accounts, move around the country - very convenient. I am a resident so cannot have one and miss out on lots of simple everyday things that would be so much easier. They are seen here as empowering the citizens a lot more than the other way around. However, I'm not going to argue about it, as we are clearly of a different mindset. No big deal.
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