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Jupiter in eclipse? Macron looks a very weak odds-on favourite – politicalbetting.com

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  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,837
    MaxPB said:

    Thanks to Kate Bingham and the UK government.
    At least Macron undermined confidence in only one particular vaccine. Kate Bingham undermined confidence in the vaccines in general with her bizarre statement about not wanting to vaccinate the whole population because of side effects.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 53,461
    MaxPB said:

    Don't say that, the next few years are already going to be terrible with the COVID recovery being slower than expected all over the world. The last thing we need is Le Pen to win in France. Macron has been a bit useless lately but that's still so much better than Le Pen. That family and their values should not be allowed anywhere near the levers of power.
    It wouldn't be Trumpism. It would be worse. The worst of his values combined with the ability to actually get the policies done.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,936
    Floater said:

    Did this get missed in yesterdays excitement?

    https://twitter.com/lookner/status/1355375512772898817

    Oh dear.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    And at thr time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
    And yet again these are supposed to be actions of "friends and allies"?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,643
    geoffw said:

    Didn't you ask? You wont want to get the wrong one when it comes to the second jab.

    Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
  • Floater said:

    Did this get missed in yesterdays excitement?

    https://twitter.com/lookner/status/1355375512772898817

    That's not good, but what is "many"?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,643
    edited January 2021

    If they asked you to stay for 15 minutes after the jab to make sure you didn't have an allergic reaction it was Pfizer. If you were in and out quickly it was AZ.
    Yes, thanks - it's next Tuesday, I should have been clearer.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,831

    And at the time the likes of the Guardian were calling the government stupid for not signing up to it...in fact some went further and claimed the UK government were put our lives at risk by not doing so.
    The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,907
    OllyT said:

    We are due to have our first jab and I have a genuine question which I hope Foxy or someone else who knows what they are talking about will respond to.

    I get that Macron and Germany might well be playing politics with the notion that the AZN vaccine has low effectiveness for the over 65s. It is also my understanding that in the UK we have taken the decision to use Pfizer for the over 65s and AZN for the rest. If this is the case then does it not indicate that their may be some concern about the effectiveness of AZN for those over 65.

    No, there's no connection between those two things. Pfizer was used first because it was available first, and the first people to be vaccinated were older people.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    The Price Of Solidarity?

    https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    A very good article on the EU vaccine situation. 3 takeaways:

    1) The EU seemed a little fixated on being anti-Trump
    2) They wanted companies producing the vaccine to be criminally liable for problems
    3) The need to continually get agreement of 27 members is very cumbersome

    On the issue of liability I'm rather ashamed to say I do not know who has been responsible for the clinical trials. Is it the vaccine producers themselves? If so that doesn't seem right. Government should have verified the efficacy independently.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912

    Malc, that's not a valid argument and you know it. 'There are no Scottish people in power and that Scottish person doesn't count because I don't like him'.

    Regarding the lack of Scottish politicians holding high positions in the UK parties, isn't it more a symptom of the popularity of the SNP, and the decline of the LDs, Labour, and to some extent the Tories in Scotland? The SNP in WM are, by choice, a permanent opposition. So you don't get the Browns, the Kennedys, the Darlings etc. that you once did. Hard to argue anyone else has marginalised you if you have done it yourself.
    True as they have little to no MP's apart from the brown nosers like Gove that have English seats it is difficult. However the fact that they treat the SNP MP's so badly is shocking and explains perfectly why people want Independence.
    Though I would contend the unionists have done it to themselves by being so crap that all the MP's are SNP.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    IanB2 said:

    The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
    I believe the German's did their side deal before this was signed. I don't know what the repercussions for the Poles doing one after will be.
  • Trompe in French means wrong.

    President Trompe works quite well for me.

    Well johnson means dick, cock or prick, so..
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    IanB2 said:

    The "no side deals" point seems unlikely, with some EU members in the deal already doing side deals.
    Well it does say "unlike EU member states". Not surprising it'd be less flexible for non-members.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    MrEd said:

    Chip buttie sandwich perhaps?
    Yes please, now you are making me hungry
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282

    Well johnson means dick, cock or prick, so..
    That's priced in. Who suspected Macron was a mini Trumper?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    RobD said:

    That's priced in. Who suspected Macron was a mini Trumper?
    Well don't forget he made an even bigger play for Trumps attention when he got elected than even the UK, and made a big song and dance about giving him the full red carpet treatment for a visit before the any other European country.
  • I think Le Pen wins this time. Why?

    1. Fundamentally Macron has failed. Whether he was trying to do the right things or not, or in the right way, on the main metrics, on the economy and Covid, he has failed.

    2. One of the features of Macron's failure is that he's failed to stand up ideologically against the fringes of the right. He fawned over Trump. He speaks the words of anti-vaxxers. This has acted to normalize the politics of Le Pen.

    3. There's no-one else. Maybe someone will emerge, but I think not. Hollande came to office with the enthusiasm that the centre-left had the answers to French malaise, after the failures of the centre-right. He failed. Macron is the failure of the radical centre. This leaves only the Left vs the Right - and my sense is that, as with Corbyn, the Left in France is still mired in the arguments of the past, and doesn't have a story about the future to tell the voters. And so, Le Pen.

    I really hope you're wrong.

    But if you're right I'm not sure what would change.
  • Do you understand the word politics

    Everyone does it
    Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282

    Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
    Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    MaxPB said:

    Yes, I find the suggestion that we should withhold vaccines from Scotland extremely distasteful this morning. We should all be celebrating our success and hopeful exit from this bastard lockdown in a few months not sniping at each other.
    I agree 100%
  • Well johnson means dick, cock or prick, so..
    And Sturgeon is an anadromous bottom-feeder
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    What does Le Pen even stand for these days? Farage without the EU Scepticism?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    RobD said:

    The Scottish government led vaccine procurement for Scotland?
    Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    malcolmg said:

    Rob, don't be silly , you well know the Tories hide everything from the Scottish government and are scared that if they ever included them in anything they would be shown up for the fools they are.
    I'll take that as a no.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912

    Does your neck hurt, trying to face in two directions at once ?

    I've only been on PB for a few months, yet your aggression and deliberate mischaracterisation of other people stands out like a sore thumb to me. You do so much harm to your cause by the manner in which you debate here.
    Don't hit your arse on the door on the way out
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045
    geoffw said:

    Oh dear.
    I’m sure* that following this, plus all the mutations that have happened where spread was rampant, and the hospitalisation figures for younger age groups, coupled with the evidence of long-term damage from Covid in all age groups, the authors of the Great Barrington Declaration will be withdrawing it immediately.

    *By “sure”, I mean “absolutely certain that they, in fact, will completely ignore all of this”, unfortunately
    .
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    felix said:

    For all your lack of interest you seem strangely obsessed about where people live and what rights it gives them to post on here. I note with some amusement that you don't like people whining on here about things - there must be a mirror shortage in your gaff.
    you still whinging
  • malcolmg said:

    As long as we get our fair share of all assets we will take on a fair share of the debts. No share of all the assets , infrastructure , buildings , ships , embassies etc that we have paid for then as per the last time rUK will choose to keep its debt.
    Do you want your share of buildings as the buildings in Scotland? Or do you want 9% of the buildings in England - and for England to have 90% of the buildings in Scotland?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,018

    Well johnson means dick, cock or prick, so..
    Precisely, there's no need for him to have a nickname, it's perfect.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021

    Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
    I literally can't think of any reason why the Government might have wanted to promote/publicise positive outcomes viz the EU in early January.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    alex_ said:

    That's one part of the debt at least that we can put you down for taking on post Independence then? ;)
    Sure they will be piling it on , given they claim it is all ours at present o:)
  • And Sturgeon is an anadromous bottom-feeder
    Though unlike the other two, she seems to be rated by the people who can potentially vote for her. In fact even by the people who can’t vote for her..

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6196499/nicola-sturgeon-popular-england-boris-johnson/
  • Though unlike the other two, she seems to be rated by the people who can potentially vote for her. In fact even by the people who can’t vote for her..

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/6196499/nicola-sturgeon-popular-england-boris-johnson/
    Wow. I was talking about the fish, not Nicola.
  • Yes, but you also aren’t answering the question. Why did Hancock think the appropriate, political thing to do in early January and again in mid-January was to antagonise our European friends? What was his intention in doing so?
    Politics
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912
    RobD said:

    I'll take that as a no.
    We would be in far better shape if they had been running the show for sure and much less largesse for the chumocracy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    malcolmg said:

    True as they have little to no MP's apart from the brown nosers like Gove that have English seats it is difficult. However the fact that they treat the SNP MP's so badly is shocking and explains perfectly why people want Independence.
    Though I would contend the unionists have done it to themselves by being so crap that all the MP's are SNP.
    Have they been treated particularly badly?

    This would be partially solved imo if there were a 'Scotland first' party, for and run in Scotland and not affiliated to the main parties but wishing to remain in the UK. A DUP for Scotland. They would be able to enter coalition with any other party, and the chances are they would be in power more than out of it. However, we are where we are. Even the latest party in Scotland 'Reform UK' is a Farage offshoot. That won't do anything.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    Floater said:

    I see the EU is pushing out a load of propaganda for some reason today...

    https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/1355458586902720512

    It is taking place - just without any sense of urgency......

    Apart from the several places where it is currently stopped.
  • Wow. I was talking about the fish, not Nicola.
    As someone who is usually quite fastidious about language, if that were your intent I feel you would have included the definite article and not capitalised sturgeon.
  • As someone who is usually quite fastidious about language, if that were your intent I feel you would have included the definite article and not capitalised sturgeon.
    After you decapitalised Johnson, I thought it a fair trade.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,912

    Do you want your share of buildings as the buildings in Scotland? Or do you want 9% of the buildings in England - and for England to have 90% of the buildings in Scotland?
    Philip, as you well know 90% of next to nothing is almost nothing, happy to give you 90% of our meagre fair for 10% of your opulence including the tax havens.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,018
    felix said:

    Apart from the several places where it is currently stopped.
    Is it completely stopped, or just new first doses? I guess the benefit of being continent wide is the situation is so varied from place to place any statement will be at least partly true.

    Hopefully things pick up next week.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,020
    alex_ said:

    Who do you think we have been giving AZN to for the last month???
    You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    Emmanuel Macron has warned that Boris Johnson’s government has to decide who its allies are, insisting that “half-friends is not a concept”.

    “Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron

    Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
    Your statement that there was a decision to use Pfizer for over 65s and AZN for the rest is wrong. Anecdotes here alone proves it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Yes, she said she didn't know. I'll ask when I get it.
    Did they tell you to get the Eurostar and pick it up from a Belgian contact? If so it's Pfizer. :smiley:
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    malcolmg said:

    We would be in far better shape if they had been running the show for sure and much less largesse for the chumocracy.
    You sure you wouldn't have been in the EU scheme?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
    Only the government knows, but we know the policy in England is that the AZN is the preferred option to be used in care homes and for the housebound, due to the characteristics of the two vaccines.
  • RobD said:

    Because no serious politician would view that as antagonism.
    Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,018
    edited January 2021

    Emmanuel Macron has warned that Boris Johnson’s government has to decide who its allies are, insisting that “half-friends is not a concept”.

    “Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron

    Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?

    Wow, he really didn't like that poll about him and Le Pen, did he?

    Seriously, I don't take comments from a French President about the UK PM, or vice versa, seriously, since it's such an easy way to play to the crowd. If I were French I'd be immediately suspcious when I heard such talk.

    “Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible."

    I mean, there's truth in that. But there's no way he's dumb enough to not see that he does the same thing.
  • malcolmg said:

    Philip, as you well know 90% of next to nothing is almost nothing, happy to give you 90% of our meagre fair for 10% of your opulence including the tax havens.
    Well I am ok with that if that is what you want.

    Though I doubt that the Scottish Government will want to negotiate the rump UK Government owning 90% of Holyrood. If they do then fair enough.
  • OllyT said:

    You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
    I expect the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine comes down to where they can store it adequately. AZ will be filling all of the gaps.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282

    Fair point but I’m still curious why Europe was chosen for the comparison rather than anything else... maybe it wasn’t a taunt directed at European politicians, maybe they were doubling down on the vaccine benefit of having Brexited... personally I find it at best crass... especially on a matter where the numbers speak for themselves and underline what an excellent job the vaccine task force has done.
    Perhaps to highlight just how wrong these people were? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/uk-poised-to-shun-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme

    I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    kle4 said:

    Is it completely stopped, or just new first doses? I guess the benefit of being continent wide is the situation is so varied from place to place any statement will be at least partly true.

    Hopefully things pick up next week.
    With numbers going through the roof right now we are in for a very difficult few weeks. The aim is for 70% of older groups done by the summer. Their is pessimism as to whether even that can be achieved.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180

    Emmanuel Macron has warned that Boris Johnson’s government has to decide who its allies are, insisting that “half-friends is not a concept”.

    “Whenever there’s a problem with the EU, the British just love to detest the French – and me – and say we are responsible.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron

    Not ones that accuse their mates of starting a war when things go wrong for them?

    Jesus he's more of a prick than one of the vaccines he doesn't want/can't have!
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295
    edited January 2021
    Andy_JS said:

    The owner of this site described it as a great post so I thought it was worth seeing again.

    You did right. Flawed but at the same time articulate and insightful. Ditto their follow up post when they got tumbling with the energetic and diligent Philip Thompson construct. It's certainly a useful counterview to what has been something of an orgy of "We're great, they're shit. Thank fuck we're out!" sentiment. The main point is a good one, I think. There is a disturbing amount of nationalistic propaganda pumped out these "Boris" and "Brexity" days, and there is a disturbingly large and receptive domestic audience for it. I personally don't think it's in the same ballpark as the Trumpian side of America, nevertheless it is something all those who are not sold on National Populism as the way forward should be anxious about.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189
    felix said:

    Jesus he's more of a prick than one of the vaccines he doesn't want/can't have!
    Anyone would think that he's up for election soon...
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,707
    felix said:

    Did they tell you to get the Eurostar and pick it up from a Belgian contact? If so it's Pfizer. :smiley:
    Did the nurse emerge out of a dry ice fog, like (Not) in Ice Station Zebra?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    You tell me. What is the AZN / Pfizer split for over 65s and what is the split for under 65s (care workers, nurses, key workers etc). That is what I am trying to find out - as I said perhaps someone who knows the actual facts could respond.
    Basically there is no preference for one over the other, except that

    - Pfizer vaccinations commenced earlier
    - The logistics of Pfizer are harder so there are limitations on its use (so for example, AZ is used for vaccinations in carehomes etc)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    MattW said:

    Did the nurse emerge out of a dry ice fog, like (Not) in Ice Station Zebra?
    Apparently you go to the big square in Brussels to the cafe and ask for Rene..... #secretarmy
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,020

    I expect the distribution of the Pfizer vaccine comes down to where they can store it adequately. AZ will be filling all of the gaps.
    That makes sense.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,672
    That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:

    "However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."

    The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    That was an interesting read. On the one hand, encouraging that the hospital and corpse tallies should ultimately improve at a rapid pace, albeit after what will probably feel like an interminable wait.

    On the other, good explanation for why we are probably going to be lumbered with something not too far off lockdown for quite a long time.

    We could really, really do with a repetition of last year's Spring, weather wise: not only would it help to slaughter the Plague bug, it'd allow us to get out and have some respite from cold and rain and endless boring days stuck inside in front of screens. Because we're probably not getting most of the leisure and hospitality businesses (or what's left of them anyway) back until well into the Summer.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,020

    Only the government knows, but we know the policy in England is that the AZN is the preferred option to be used in care homes and for the housebound, due to the characteristics of the two vaccines.
    Thanks, if that is the case then I find it reassuring.
  • RobD said:

    Perhaps to highlight just how wrong these people were? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/uk-poised-to-shun-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme

    I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
    That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
  • MaxPB said:

    That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:

    "However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."

    The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.

    These sort of tweets have aged well....

    https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1281499566567825408?s=20
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kinabalu said:

    You did right. Flawed but at the same time articulate and insightful. Ditto their follow up post when they got tumbling with the energetic and diligent Philip Thompson construct. It's certainly a useful counterview to what has been something of an orgy of "We're great, they're shit. Thank fuck we're out!" sentiment. The main point is a good one, I think. There is a disturbing amount of nationalistic propaganda pumped out these "Boris" and "Brexity" days, and there is a disturbingly large and receptive domestic audience for it. I personally don't think it's in the same ballpark as the Trumpian side of America, nevertheless it is something all those who are not sold on National Populism as the way forward should be anxious about.
    He lost it when he said that America was merely "wounded" by Trump, but the UK is irretreviably broken. Not somebody who's been paying much attention to the USA is perhaps the charitable explanation.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    Anyone would think that he's up for election soon...
    Not sure that playing to the crowd by piling into the British is a particularly strong play unless you feel on firm ground about the course of the next few months...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282

    That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
    But the point I am making is that the two are in no way comparable. One the one hand we have a tweet from a health minister proud of the relative success of the program he is partly responsible for, on the other we have the EU threatening to ban exports and establishing a hard border in NI by accident. I just cannot see how you can equate the two.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    OllyT said:

    Thanks, if that is the case then I find it reassuring.
    The thing is at the moment, the (harsh) reality is that the vaccination scheme isn't really about one individual. We aren't trying to eliminate COVID and provide 100% protection to any one individual. In an ideal world, perhaps next year, we will.

    The current approach is all geared towards squashing the prevalence of COVID as much as possible and attempting to minimize the worst outcomes among the largest number of people.

    All we as individuals can do is accept a jab when offered and try to follow the rules as best we can, and realise that regardless of being given the Pfizer of AZN vaccine, we don't have an invincibility shield, and certainly not for many weeks, and it is potentially still possible to pass it on to others.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    OllyT said:

    That makes sense.
    And remember that both are believed to be very effective at preventing hospitalisation and death. Of course time will tell but that is the reality of accelerated vaccine programmes - the alternative is to wait and hope. Where I live people would queue all night if there were any vaccines available. The whole experience has shot my belief and confidence in the EU. Sadly, Spain is one of the EU members who rely on its invincibility for obvious historical reasons.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,420
    edited January 2021
    RobD said:

    Perhaps to highlight just how wrong these people were? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/10/uk-poised-to-shun-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-scheme

    I still don't see how you can even begin to equate boasting with denying access to vaccines.
    “We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”

    Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    MaxPB said:

    That guardian article on the vaccine scheme is completely damning of the EU. This stuck out to me in particular:

    "However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump."

    The EU is reduced to the status of Trump. That's what they're doing, they are taking his place.

    It's good to know that for all the talk, the UK Govt appear to have been very clearheaded about what was happening in the US.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    I have just had my 1st AZN dose. By the end of today 650 doses will have been administered to Group 5 patients at my practice. If this is in any way representative of other areas, then I can see light at the end of the tunnel for the first time.

    Interesting: for clarity, do you mean the fifth cohort, i.e. they're done with the first four priority groups and have gone on to the recently retired round your way? That would be exceptionally quick.
  • That wasn’t the point being made though I appreciate it could be inferred*. I was more reflecting on the many comments this morning as to how well the Government has played the past couple of days and contrasting that behaviour with the crass comparisons being made to Europe just a couple of weeks ago.
    It isn't crass it is contrast. Every Government and Opposition has always made contrasts when it favours themselves. Bog standard.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    RobD said:

    But the point I am making is that the two are in no way comparable. One the one hand we have a tweet from a health minister proud of the relative success of the program he is partly responsible for, on the other we have the EU threatening to ban exports and establishing a hard border in NI by accident. I just cannot see how you can equate the two.
    BDS - apparently there is no cure...or vaccine..maybe in Europe? Ask Mac.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    tlg86 said:

    “We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”

    Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
    I think the Wellcome trust were being a bit starry-eyed about the EU, thinking that the EU would only get enough vaccine for the priority groups so that the wider world can have supplies for the same. The EU's miserly contribution to the Covax fund must have been a great disappointment to them.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    tlg86 said:

    “We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”

    Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
    The EU's statements appear to be geared towards having been a passive purchaser of vaccines. "We'll buy what we need, but not hoard them where we don't really need it". The idea that they could have had a substantial part to play in actively investing to expand supply seems to have passed them by.
  • UK v EU vaccine procurement

    EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."

    UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."

    EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,282
    edited January 2021
    alex_ said:

    The EU's statements appear to be geared towards having been a passive purchaser of vaccines. "We'll buy what we need, but not hoard them where we don't really need it". The idea that they could have had a substantial part to play in actively investing to expand supply seems to have passed them by.
    To be fair I don't think the EU or UK will hoard unused supply. But that moment will come later than just having the over-65s done.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,295
    alex_ said:

    He lost it when he said that America was merely "wounded" by Trump, but the UK is irretreviably broken. Not somebody who's been paying much attention to the USA is perhaps the charitable explanation.
    I did say "flawed" and that is the biggest of them. You know my feelings about Trump and the damage he has done. I yield to nobody on it. Damage not just to America, btw, but globally. I think the Role Model aspect of having such a person in the highest elected office on the planet is not discussed and appreciated as much as it ought to be. His administration's policies were the least toxic thing about Donald Trump. Indeed many can be respectably supported. His legacy is not that. His legacy is his corrupting impact on hearts & minds.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518

    UK v EU vaccine procurement

    EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."

    UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."

    EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"

    A side point on all this. How much does it in part come down to the fact that the UK have its own currency and can borrow what they want to fund things?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    The EU approach to vaccine procurement has been more akin to buying a carpet in a Moroccan bizarre.....they approached it like they have time to spend playing a silly haggling game and even when told the price is now the absolute rock bottom price, they still continued, despite the trader getting out the receipts from the factory to show them that he wasn't ripping them off.

    While the UK government put up a load of money for the carpet factories themselves.
  • UK v EU vaccine procurement

    EU - "IN ITS VACCINE NEGOTIATIONS, Gallina and her team put great importance on three things: a wide selection of potential vaccines, low prices for each jab, and that drugmakers would bear legal responsibility if anything went wrong."

    UK - "The government will spend up to £11.7bn ($15.8bn) on securing vaccines for the UK and rolling them out in England, as well as potentially covering drugmakers’ costs if they face legal action."

    EU - "They announced plans to offer CureVac up to €80 million in loans to test and manufacture its vaccine in the EU"

    In a nutshell. Where is that quoted from?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    alex_ said:

    It's good to know that for all the talk, the UK Govt appear to have been very clearheaded about what was happening in the US.
    Well, there's always been this lazy assumption in some quarters that Trump and Johnson are birds of a feather, but whilst they're both flawed they're clearly also different personalities. Nor is Johnson stupid.

    His Government, and those of his predecessors, have been walking a tightrope for the past four years - trying to maintain good relations with the Trump White House, without getting too close and becoming embroiled in any of his controversies in the process. I'm inclined to believe what the ex-head of the civil service said earlier in the month, when he claimed that Johnson would be relieved that Biden had won. The new President might not necessarily agree with the Prime Minister on everything, but they do share important common goals and Biden is stable and predictable, thank God.
  • In a nutshell. Where is that quoted from?
    EU bits from https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-coronavirus-vaccine-struggle-pfizer-biontech-astrazeneca/

    UK bit from https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/uk-government-vaccine-rollout-liability-costs-085553962.html
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    RobD said:

    To be fair I don't think the EU or UK will hoard unused supply. But that moment will come later than just having the over-65s done.
    My point was that the EU's approach was the idea that there was a fixed supply, and they would only procure "their share". The UK's approach is that supply was ultimately unlimited, but they had to invest to bring that about. Even more so for a vaccine being delivered at cost.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,831
    RobD said:

    Well it does say "unlike EU member states". Not surprising it'd be less flexible for non-members.
    It would be good to think that the government examined the fine print and weighted up the pros and cons, before making the (correct) decision that participation wasn’t in our interest.

    Rather than just seeing ‘EU’ in the title of the scheme and steering clear, the right outcome being luck rather than judgement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,018
    tlg86 said:

    “We urge the UK government to follow the EU’s lead and only secure vaccine doses for those who need it most (healthcare workers, over-65s and other vulnerable groups).”

    Is that really what the EU have done/aimed for?
    No, they've ordered enough for everyone and then some.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,189

    It isn't crass it is contrast. Every Government and Opposition has always made contrasts when it favours themselves. Bog standard.
    You also have to put that Tweet in the context of the media, that at the time seemed to be reporting virtually nothing on the comparative success of the UK rollout (whilst of course ghoulishly majoring on failures). This was certainly my experience when I broached it with the small circle I speak to regularly at the moment. Hardly surprising then that those concerned take to social media to trumpet the success.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,959
    edited January 2021
    No idea how all these footballers get COVID...

    Joelinton an idiot for sharing haircut photo, barber says

    A barber to the stars has called a Premier League ace an "idiot" for sharing a photo of an illegal haircut.

    Stylist Tom Baxter cut Newcastle United forward Joelinton's hair on Friday, but the Brazilian footballer shared a photograph of the moment on Instagram.

    The celebrity crimper said it was obvious many footballers were getting professional cuts done, adding that if "I didn't do it someone else would".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-55870959

    "He pointed out that Joelinton's visit was part of a photoshoot which could be allowed under the rules, although the stylist said he "should not have done it" and Joelinton was an "idiot" for putting it on social media."

    Yeah yeah, course it was.....just like all the Instagram models are out in the Middle East on essential business.
This discussion has been closed.