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Remainers markedly more positive about Biden than leavers – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited January 2021 in General
imageRemainers markedly more positive about Biden than leavers – politicalbetting.com

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  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I second that.
  • Options
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes.....
  • Options
    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....
  • Options
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,979
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Only 40 odd years to go...
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,197
    I thought Brexit had been decided on now?
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
  • Options
    kamskikamski Posts: 4,255
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Lab = Remain and Con = Leave is a pretty good rule of thumb. Works here.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes.....
    Yes what?

    Yes Its just him?

    or Yes its getting .......
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,288
    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
  • Options

    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,629
    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Well of course they are. Being older, and all.
  • Options
    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    EXCL: Scottish govt official 'asked for account of when they knew about Salmond complaints to be changed'


    Oh.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
    Most flip flops are vegan I would think.
  • Options
    dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    It is slightly depressing how the fawning coverage of Harris has been based almost entirely on her gender and ethnicity. The fact her own presidential campaign didn't even make it to Iowa seems to have been entirely forgotten.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,864
    The 13-14% of Leave and Conservative voters who think relations will get worse under Biden are presumably many of the 13% who were cited in this morning's thread as having a favourable impression of former President Trump.

    That's the hard core of British Trump supporters - 13-14%. Are they all Leave-voting Conservatives?

    Well...
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited January 2021

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Just remember that ethics is a county in Southern England where everyone looks like they've been gangbanged by a pack of wotsits.

    Also remember that

    1) I would not do well in prison

    2) The scandal would kill my mother

    3) It would be a career ender and I like earning money

    But saying the below might see you through

    1) Morally it is the wrong thing to do

    2) It would cause a lack of trust in the profession

    3) There are no victimless crimes
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
    Most flip flops are vegan I would think.
    At the value end of the market, you're probably right.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,288

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away

    Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again

    But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far

    I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.

    This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.

  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,197

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    You had better have an early night then 😊
  • Options
    Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,844
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Replace all statues of slavers with statues of William Wilberforce.

    Everyone will be happy.

    Wilberforce? Terrible misogynist, and possibly a pedo. Look into it. I jest not.


    Also, a bit of a slaver

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/03/wilberforce-slavery-sierra-leone
    And a sop and get out of jail card to the white man's conscience. Like bigging yourself up for raping and robbing someone and then giving them their bus fare home.
    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
    You can already advocate for tearing down statues of David Attenborough

    He became patron of these
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/attenborough-patron-optimum-population-trust

    Who among other things did this
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/charity-which-campaigned-to-ban-syrian-refugees-from-britain/

    I am sure there is grist for the baying mob there
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873

    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
    In front of lawyers surely?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    edited January 2021
    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to go away.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
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    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.
  • Options
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    It's just you.

    Brexit was a shocking event with terrific consequences never to be forgotten despite clear risk to personal sanity.

    Sorta like Prince Andrew's wedding? Or when Monica Lewinsky asked Bill Clinton, do you want anything else with your pizza?
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    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
  • Options
    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,203
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
    Well she’s not that tall is she?😀
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,873
    I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"

    I didn't try to dissuade him
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,288
    edited January 2021

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.

  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
  • Options
    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
    Sorry to break it to you mate - never happening again.
  • Options
    IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
    The last five words in the post you are replying to were put there specially for you, Sunil.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
  • Options

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,683

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,465

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
    Sorry to break it to you mate - never happening again.
    Well I live in Scotland, so all I really have to do is find a hill and wait for snow. :smiley:

    In all seriousness I've never skied here - I've heard it's quite an experience compared to the Alps.
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    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,197
    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊
  • Options
    I AM WOMAN
    by Helen Reddy and Ray Burton

    I am woman, hear me roar
    In numbers too big to ignore
    And I know too much to go back an' pretend
    'Cause I've heard it all before
    And I've been down there on the floor
    No one's ever gonna keep me down again

    Oh yes I am wise
    But it's wisdom born of pain
    Yes, I've paid the price
    But look how much I gained
    If I have to, I can do anything
    I am strong
    I am invincible
    I am woman

    You can bend but never break me
    'Cause it only serves to make me
    More determined to achieve my final goal
    And I come back even stronger
    Not a novice any longer
    'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

    Oh yes I am wise
    But it's wisdom born of pain
    Yes, I've paid the price
    But look how much I gained
    If I have to, I can do anything
    I am strong
    I am invincibe
    I am woman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rptW7zOPX2E
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,002
    Leon said:

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.

    Shit.

    That's the second time in two days I've agreed with one of your posts.

    I'm going to sign off for a bit.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,683

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
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    LeonLeon Posts: 47,288
    Chris Packham's stepdaughter. Ooof.
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    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,979
    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    https://twitter.com/TomDutty/status/1352341124657127428

    Bernie has the best seat at Anfield.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Liverpool may not even finish top in the City of Liverpool.
  • Options
    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
  • Options
    Leon said:

    Chris Packham's stepdaughter. Ooof.

    She looks OK :)
  • Options

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
    Did say "NOT"! And was thinking about close results in AZ, GA, MI, PA, WI.
  • Options
    londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,197

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    Actually I think it will be Man U. Leicester will fall away and I think Ole might just do it.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,629
    On topic, I would have to answer 'Not important at all' to me, as I'm not an American. Just as Jacinda being PM of NZ is not important to me. Her election (if we can call any VP as being elected) is significant to the US, but that is a different question.
  • Options
    algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,545
    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,683

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
  • Options
    algarkirk said:

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
    THIS is where you deploy the "Dewey, Cheatem & Howe" reference., as advised by notable legal experts Click & Clack.
  • Options
    LeonLeon Posts: 47,288
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Foxy said:

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
    And me - lumped on Man C for title this morning.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,009
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away

    Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again

    But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far

    I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.

    This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.

    For once I agree with you.

    This is spot on.

    I couldn’t give a fuck about Brexit anymore, I just want the whole thing to go away.

    I hardly hear about it these days, among my friends, most of whom would have been known as “hardcore remoaners” on PB.

    If anything Leavers mention it more, like they were stuck in the jungle and are still fighting the last war.

    Enough.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
  • Options
    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    To be fair rejoin is fashionable now. Much more fashionable than I expected to be honest. Even I don't support rejoin!
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,127
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
    The statue fetish as a national pursuit appears a relatively recent thing, Victorian? Seems odd that they’ve become such an intrinsic part of the UK myth (for those who like that sort of thing).
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,977
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
    All of which may be true.
    But those kind of considerations are how every vice president has always been chosen.
    Can't think of a time "the best person for the job" came into it.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
  • Options
    Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,677
    "TV licence fee decriminalisation decision shelved"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55754914
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    A) yee

    B) the conclusion is wrong (or not proven). As well as Remainers being more positive on Biden they could be more hostile towards Trump. The question was a relative one.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
  • Options
    alednamalednam Posts: 185
    algarkirk said:

    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.

    So it always is with pollster's questions. It can be unclear, for instance, what it means to "approve" of someone.
    We were told what they'd been asked. And I find the results rather interesting. It's interesting, for instance, to see what correlation (if any) there is between Remain/Leave and Labour/Conservative.
    If the pollsters were to seek answers to refined questions, it's possible that the majority of respondents wouldn't understand quite what was being asked.
  • Options

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    And the Spanish. The Iberians settled the New World 100 years before the UK and France.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,683

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    Actually I think it will be Man U. Leicester will fall away and I think Ole might just do it.
    I think Vardy will be out for a couple of weeks. We are going to miss him. He didn't score in the last matches, but his movement creates a lot of space for our increasingly formidable midfielders.
  • Options
    novanova Posts: 525
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
    And me - lumped on Man C for title this morning.
    I punted on United when they were 12-1, despite having the best record in the PL over nearly 30 games.
  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
    Except that, since he was neither a barbarian nor a backward philistine, the Iron Duke didn't destroy Canova's monumental statue of Napoleon as Mars Pacifer, but moved it to the staircase of his own home in Apsley House - where it has stood for 200 years to the present day.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
    Glad they're getting some sort of priority.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226
    Leon said:

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
    Correct. It's happened and the heat has gone from the issue.

    But we'll always look down on Leavers. That's for keeps.

    And their children and grandchildren.
  • Options
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
    "Some speculation" all well & good so far as it goes. Though when he made his actual selection, there were several Black women in the running ahead of Stacey Abrams.

    As to your three points, 1) is way overblown, but still a consideration, though outranked by 2) & 3).

    Think the most important was actually

    4) Tapping into a half century of feminism (as personified by the late, great Helen Reddy) as shared by a broad spectrum of American women, including many potential and ACTUAL swing voters who swung to Biden-Harris, especially among suburban voters in places like metro Atlanta and Phoenix.
  • Options
    kinabalukinabalu Posts: 39,226

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    They were odds on favs before. I got 1.6.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"

    I didn't try to dissuade him

    AstraZeneca the company with a Swedish anchor shareholder and a French CEO?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,683

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
    Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
  • Options
    EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976
    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
    I don't really care as much as my comment might've made it seem; I just can't see it as an achievement under the circumstances.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    Andy_JS said:

    "TV licence fee decriminalisation decision shelved"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55754914

    Cummings no longer in the building.
  • Options
    alednamalednam Posts: 185
    algarkirk said:

    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.

    Of course people have different views one from another what it would be for US/UK relations to be better or worse. But we can know what respondents think about whether they'd be better or worse without specifying what it would be, as far as they were concerned, for relations to be better or worse. And it can hardly be for those conducting the poll to say what it would be, as far as the polling company was concerned, for relations to be better or worse.
    There's a limit to what opinion polls can show. But don't we have to accept that there are such limits?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,009
    How long is this trial expected to take? This looks potentially amazing.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,687
    Endillion said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
    ... which in turn is predicated on Brexit.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    edited January 2021
    Good showing from Ireland in latest update (up from #15 to #4):

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • Options
    BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
    Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
    Ah, all of a sudden we've found some slavetraders whose identity doesn't matter! Amazing.
This discussion has been closed.