Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
I nearly agree, but we have to factor in the non-fatal human cost too. I don't know how bad or prevalent "long covid" is, but the survivors deserve consideration, not least in the way they are helped now to recover and be treated with dignity whilst they do so. Far more difficult to quantify than just counting body bags, but important nonetheless.
Christ one of my friends has died from Covid, was either in his 30s or early 40s.
Fuck. Grim
Today I learned that an acquaintance - a writer, woman, late 30s, perfectly healthy - has been in bed, crippled with Long Covid - for two months. With no sign of improvement yet. And , also today, I heard that a very close friend's mother-in-law died of it two days ago.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
After reading your posts this evening, I feel the robot apocalypse can't come soon enough.
Next Monday marks the centenary of the play "Rossums Universal Robots" the play that introduced the word robot to our language, and features a successful robot revolt. Robot has its origin in the Czech word for "forced labourer" or slave, thereby bringing together several threads on here.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
Agree about animals. Made a comment about the tolerance of the number of deaths and illness caused by the near universal possession of the internal combustion engine some time ago when this was asked. Received some abuse I can tell you.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
After reading your posts this evening, I feel the robot apocalypse can't come soon enough.
Next Monday marks the centenary of the play "Rossums Universal Robots" the play that introduced the word robot to our language, and features a successful robot revolt. Robot has its origin in the Czech word for "forced labourer" or slave, thereby bringing together several threads on here.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
Complex thing, history.
Apparently it's the other way round: The term slave has its origins in the word slav. The slavs, who inhabited a large part of Eastern Europe, were taken as slaves by the Muslims of Spain during the ninth century AD.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
I sometime think there's a small chance that history will judge us terribly for the Paralympics, either owing to a societal shift in how the disabled are treated, or a hilarious misunderstanding as to what the point of the competition was.
I find it bizarre even now. We have faster paraplegics than you! Nationalism meets disability meets mawkishness
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
After reading your posts this evening, I feel the robot apocalypse can't come soon enough.
Have you ever considered writing an interesting comment? It might be good for you.
I thought about it, but I decided against it. I have a feeling the murderous AI will track down the clever people first, and leave you and me until the end. #incognito #survivors_together
You should still try. Just one interesting comment. I'm convinced you can do it
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
"Our fuckups don't matter because someone else fucked up more."
or
"They've fucked up doing X so its okay if we fuck up doing Y."
We can give the UK the award for crap border control, the USA the award for utterly useless politicians (not just Trump) and Canada the award for crap vaccination program.
I'm sure a few more countries are in the running for various other awards.
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
I nearly agree, but we have to factor in the non-fatal human cost too. I don't know how bad or prevalent "long covid" is, but the survivors deserve consideration, not least in the way they are helped now to recover and be treated with dignity whilst they do so. Far more difficult to quantify than just counting body bags, but important nonetheless.
Long Covid has significant morbidity and mortality:
The same team are looking now at patients who were not admitted. The increase of diabetes and cardiac events in survivors is worth noting. We have known about covid myocarditis for some time, but the diabetogenic effect was news to me.
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
"Our fuckups don't matter because someone else fucked up more."
or
"They've fucked up doing X so its okay if we fuck up doing Y."
We can give the UK the award for crap border control, the USA the award for utterly useless politicians (not just Trump) and Canada the award for crap vaccination program.
I'm sure a few more countries are in the running for various other awards.
Canada well ahead of France and Germany on vaccinations. Not sure they're even on the podium.
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
"Our fuckups don't matter because someone else fucked up more."
or
"They've fucked up doing X so its okay if we fuck up doing Y."
We can give the UK the award for crap border control, the USA the award for utterly useless politicians (not just Trump) and Canada the award for crap vaccination program.
I'm sure a few more countries are in the running for various other awards.
100%. The “well, we are less shit than them” schtick is fucking ridiculous. Needs to end, soon.
(On the matter of awards, France is in line for the anti-vaxism gold, sadly)
Christ one of my friends has died from Covid, was either in his 30s or early 40s.
Fuck. Grim
Today I learned that an acquaintance - a writer, woman, late 30s, perfectly healthy - has been in bed, crippled with Long Covid - for two months. With no sign of improvement yet. And , also today, I heard that a very close friend's mother-in-law died of it two days ago.
It gets nearer and nearer.
It is an awful disease. Sympathies.
Kind of expected the first person I'd know to die from it would be old, well at least not in their 40s - or massively fat. He was in his 40s and - well normal.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
Things that become the vulgarities of their time, are things like Elizabethan corsetry, Victorian language censoring, medieval witch dunking, Georgian lice-infested wigs, the Tulip craze. Things that were done for an original reason, but became an end in themselves, and in the end caused people to act in a way that was counter to their own good sense and often their welfare.
In this line, I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now, so without the gloss of it being current, it will look grotesquely ridiculous.
Not going to go into 'woke', as it's been done to death, but it's a good candidate.
That 'this is healthy' Cosmo cover - the trend of 'self acceptance' becoming a toleration or even glamourisation of poor health - that has potential.
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
I nearly agree, but we have to factor in the non-fatal human cost too. I don't know how bad or prevalent "long covid" is, but the survivors deserve consideration, not least in the way they are helped now to recover and be treated with dignity whilst they do so. Far more difficult to quantify than just counting body bags, but important nonetheless.
Long Covid has significant morbidity and mortality:
The same team are looking now at patients who were not admitted. The increase of diabetes and cardiac events in survivors is worth noting. We have known about covid myocarditis for some time, but the diabetogenic effect was news to me.
Yes. I am bewildered this is not bigger news. Perhaps it is too scary? Almost a third of those hospitalised with Covid are later re-admitted, and many die thereafter.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
My candidate is failing to grasp the nettle and allowing those with dementia and other very poor quality of life not to die with dignity. We will look back, jaw agape, at leaving people to "live" in nursing homes, not knowing who you are or who they are, until killed by Covid or some other deeply unpleasant passing some years or decades later.
They will literally point to laws preventing us treating animals like that and ask "How?"
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
Things that become the vulgarities of their time, are things like Elizabethan corsetry, Victorian language censoring, medieval witch dunking, Georgian lice-infested wigs, the Tulip craze. Things that were done for an original reason, but became an end in themselves, and in the end caused people to act in a way that was counter to their own good sense and often their welfare.
In this line, I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now, so without the gloss of it being current, it will look grotesquely ridiculous.
Not going to go into 'woke', as it's been done to death, but it's a good candidate.
That 'this is healthy' Cosmo cover - the trend of 'self acceptance' becoming a toleration or even glamourisation of poor health - that has potential.
"I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now." General problem with this type of question is that it elicits exactly that kind of response. Here's a thing I don't like, I think everyone will come to agree with me!
Much more challenging is the question of what YOU hold dear that could be reviled in future.
Has anyone noticed what a crap effort Canada is making of vaccinating ?
But still doing far better than their neighbour in terms of lack of deaths.
I'm sure that will be a great comfort for those people who will to die because the vaccination effort is going so slowly.
In end, what matters is how many people died of covid. It doesn't make difference to them why they died of covid, whether from lack of a timely vaccine or inadequate suppression policies (even if were possible to assign a cause). And, at the moment, Canada isn't doing anywhere near as badly as the US. Nor is, for example, Germany doing anywhere near as badly as the UK.
I nearly agree, but we have to factor in the non-fatal human cost too. I don't know how bad or prevalent "long covid" is, but the survivors deserve consideration, not least in the way they are helped now to recover and be treated with dignity whilst they do so. Far more difficult to quantify than just counting body bags, but important nonetheless.
Long Covid has significant morbidity and mortality:
The same team are looking now at patients who were not admitted. The increase of diabetes and cardiac events in survivors is worth noting. We have known about covid myocarditis for some time, but the diabetogenic effect was news to me.
Yes. I am bewildered this is not bigger news. Perhaps it is too scary? Almost a third of those hospitalised with Covid are later re-admitted, and many die thereafter.
That's, like, WOW. To me. And truly frightening.
Just. Don't. Get. It.
That is based on ONS figures for the first wave. Like mortality, it may be better in the second wave, but sobering still.
The figures from the American VA are similar, so it doesn't seem to be just the NHS seeing this.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
My candidate is failing to grasp the nettle and allowing those with dementia and other very poor quality of life not to die with dignity. We will look back, jaw agape, at leaving people to "live" in nursing homes, not knowing who you are or who they are, until killed by Covid or some other deeply unpleasant passing some years or decades later.
They will literally point to laws preventing us treating animals like that and ask "How?"
A century after that, another new world will look at a society that legalised assisted suicide and wonder how they could possibly have been such monsters.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
Things that become the vulgarities of their time, are things like Elizabethan corsetry, Victorian language censoring, medieval witch dunking, Georgian lice-infested wigs, the Tulip craze. Things that were done for an original reason, but became an end in themselves, and in the end caused people to act in a way that was counter to their own good sense and often their welfare.
In this line, I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now, so without the gloss of it being current, it will look grotesquely ridiculous.
Not going to go into 'woke', as it's been done to death, but it's a good candidate.
That 'this is healthy' Cosmo cover - the trend of 'self acceptance' becoming a toleration or even glamourisation of poor health - that has potential.
"I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now." General problem with this type of question is that it elicits exactly that kind of response. Here's a thing I don't like, I think everyone will come to agree with me!
Much more challenging is the question of what YOU hold dear that could be reviled in future.
No, but it would have to be something that is NOT seen as bad or ridiculous now, it would have to be seen as good now, so whatever sacred cow of yours I'm criticising, by definition it was always going to be one of them.
I'm not that keen on wind turbines, but I don't think that when we look back on them, we'll see them as ridiculous, because they're sort of self-explanatory. But replacing reliable oil boilers, with unreliable biomass boilers, using crops grown halfways across the world on former rainforest, and transported here using the fuels they're designed to avoid using, still adding carbon to the atmosphere, has got 'ridiculous pursuit of zeitgeist' written all over it.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
Things that become the vulgarities of their time, are things like Elizabethan corsetry, Victorian language censoring, medieval witch dunking, Georgian lice-infested wigs, the Tulip craze. Things that were done for an original reason, but became an end in themselves, and in the end caused people to act in a way that was counter to their own good sense and often their welfare.
In this line, I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now, so without the gloss of it being current, it will look grotesquely ridiculous.
Not going to go into 'woke', as it's been done to death, but it's a good candidate.
That 'this is healthy' Cosmo cover - the trend of 'self acceptance' becoming a toleration or even glamourisation of poor health - that has potential.
"I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now." General problem with this type of question is that it elicits exactly that kind of response. Here's a thing I don't like, I think everyone will come to agree with me!
Much more challenging is the question of what YOU hold dear that could be reviled in future.
I should probably answer that question myself, but I find it painful to say this: privacy. I think most people today would agree with me that privacy is a good thing, but also that things are starting to move in the "wrong" direction. We already give up a lot of ourselves to the likes of Facebook but I think most people live with that by not thinking too much about it. But I can imagine a time when we're conscious of our connectedness, perhaps even with some partial usually-on interface through wearable tech that makes privacy much more difficult. And I can imagine people getting really into it and thinking in the old days people were weird for not embracing it. And I don't like that thought.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
"The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved" person"
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
Agree re artificial meat - a lot of us in the animal welfare sector see it as the cavalry breasting the hill. There's a bit of resistance from people who like plant food and feel that's what everyone should like, but once lab-generated meat tastes the same (already true for mince) and costs half the price of meat, I think it'll sweep the board - people who feel they insist on an animal being killed to give them the *same* taste will seem very weird.
As for robots, I do recommend the computer game Wasteland 3 for these long winter evenings. Essentially a very wild survivalist role-playing game, it features among other things a community of peaceful communist robots, jostling for space next to a band of religious fanatics and a settlement of Ronald Reagon cultists. You're free to try allying with any of them against the others, but the robots sound promising to me.
For those interested in such things, it's got turn-based combat like Baldur's Gate, and lots of amusing dialogue and moral choices offered with agnostic neutrality. I've just indignantly killed a rather glamorous lady slaver, and done myself out of the advanced weaponry that she was offering me if I'd trick one of her escapees back into her hands. Leon, perhaps, might marry the slaver and build statues of himself, and that's probably an option too...
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
"The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved" person"
Yeah, so the word slave came from Slav, not vice versa.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
"The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved" person"
Yeah, so the word slave came from Slav, not vice versa.
OK. Got it.
But I was trying in my clumsy way to make a point about the pervasiveness of slavery throughout history around the world.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
"The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved" person"
Yeah, so the word slave came from Slav, not vice versa.
OK. Got it.
But I was trying in my clumsy way to make a point about the pervasiveness of slavery throughout history around the world.
Maybe I should go to bed.
No, it's a good point. You were just pounced on by the pedantic police.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Er, for centuries before the West came along, they were selling to "Brown" Islamic slavers. See the history of Zanzibar.
Indeed some historians think far more slaves were sold, in toto, to Islamic countries, than were sold across the Atlantic.
"Current estimates are that about 12 million to 12.8 million Africans were shipped across the Atlantic over a span of 400 years"
"When estimating the number of people enslaved from East Africa, author N'Diaye and French historian Olivier Pétré-Grenouilleau[17][18] estimate 17 million as the total number of people transported from the 7th century until 1920, amounting to an average of 6,000 people per year. "
And that's just the Indian Ocean. Islamic slavers also traded across the desert. and via other routes, and continued to do so until the 1960s. and arguably continue to this day
Is this Islamic aspect of slavery taught in British schools? No, it is not
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Slav a derivation of the word slave? And aren't the Slav people descendants of the slaves captured and traded by the Vikings?
"The English term slave derives from the ethnonym Slav. In medieval wars many Slavs were captured and enslaved, which led to the word slav becoming synonym to "enslaved" person"
Yeah, so the word slave came from Slav, not vice versa.
OK. Got it.
But I was trying in my clumsy way to make a point about the pervasiveness of slavery throughout history around the world.
Maybe I should go to bed.
No, it's a good point. You were just pounced on by the pedantic police.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Come back Donald! And Brexit. Statues and vegetarianism...is life worth living? Like a Greatest Easy Listening Tracks of the 60s album after punk has blown itself out.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Veggie Fest Chicago being a renowned arbiter on such matters?
Other sources produce similar figures, though there are confounding factors because vegetarians often have other healthy habits as part of a wider ethical lifestyle.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Veggie Fest Chicago being a renowned arbiter on such matters?
Other sources produce similar figures, though there are confounding factors because vegetarians often have other healthy habits as part of a wider ethical lifestyle.
Sorry, I don't doubt that, I just found the URL quite amusing.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
Agree re artificial meat - a lot of us in the animal welfare sector see it as the cavalry breasting the hill. There's a bit of resistance from people who like plant food and feel that's what everyone should like, but once lab-generated meat tastes the same (already true for mince) and costs half the price of meat, I think it'll sweep the board - people who feel they insist on an animal being killed to give them the *same* taste will seem very weird.
As for robots, I do recommend the computer game Wasteland 3 for these long winter evenings. Essentially a very wild survivalist role-playing game, it features among other things a community of peaceful communist robots, jostling for space next to a band of religious fanatics and a settlement of Ronald Reagon cultists. You're free to try allying with any of them against the others, but the robots sound promising to me.
For those interested in such things, it's got turn-based combat like Baldur's Gate, and lots of amusing dialogue and moral choices offered with agnostic neutrality. I've just indignantly killed a rather glamorous lady slaver, and done myself out of the advanced weaponry that she was offering me if I'd trick one of her escapees back into her hands. Leon, perhaps, might marry the slaver and build statues of himself, and that's probably an option too...
You would have to replace milk and cheese as well, presumably. It would have to be the full vegan. I suppose you could sex-select cows to avoid the male calf problem but you might not end up with genetically healthy animals.
There's a big issue of land management, too. All your hay meadows - gone. Who needs hay? All your wet pasture - gone. Who needs cows?
The other logical conclusion of this is banning pets, because many are kept in worse conditions than farm animals. Can you imagine the uproar...
Personally, I'd ban cats immediately, but I don't think it would stick as a government policy.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Suggesting that vegetarianism and veganism is a 21st Century idea does rather show an astonishing knowledge deficit concerning India.
I'm well aware of vegetarianism in India. In common with all cultures with long term vegetarianism, they are not known for longevity. But one thing that seems traditionally to be valued very highly is animal fat, hence the reverence for the cow. I suppose because their role in a vegetarian diet becomes even more important.
Amidst a blizzard of almost Bodhisattva like empathy and compassion, sign language as a "politically correct TikTok dance" stands out as particularly heart warming. Healing.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
Forget the statue topplers and transgenders in sports, I hope this nonsense about being significantly overweight and still "healthy" gets properly shot down. You would hope that COVID would form good evidence, but so far it seems "body positivity" trumps all.
That isn't to say we should take a Marjorie Dawes from Fat Fighters approach, but we do need a real focus on this....which after 2 weeks of Boris road to Damascus conversion has gone the way of "levelling up the North"...
Come back Donald! And Brexit. Statues and vegetarianism...is life worth living? Like a Greatest Easy Listening Tracks of the 60s album after punk has blown itself out.
Young TSE: "Do you want a drink?"
Young Sunil: "Got any Quorn?"
Young TSE: "If you want!" (He also takes a bottle of meat from the fridge).
Young Sunil: "Meat...? Ugh!"
Young TSE: "It's what Ian Rush drinks."
Young Sunil: "Ian Rush?"
Young TSE: "Yeah, an' he says if I don't drink lots of meat, when I grow up I'm only gonna be good enough to play for Accrington Stanley!"
Gov.-Gen. Julie Payette and her secretary, Assunta di Lorenzo, are resigning after an outside workplace review of Rideau Hall found that the pair presided over a toxic work environment.
Last year, an independent consulting firm was hired by the Privy Council Office (PCO) to review reports that Payette was responsible for workplace harassment at Rideau Hall.
Sources who were briefed on the consulting firm's report told CBC News that its conclusions were damning.
President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada Dominic LeBlanc told CBC's Vassy Kapelos the federal government received the final report late last week, which he said offered some "disturbing" and "worrisome" conclusions.
LeBlanc said Payette indicated her intention to resign during a meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau last night, where they discussed the report's contents.
Addendum - for months this has been a big story up in the Great White North, and a huge embarrassment for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who selected the toxic ex-Gov. Gen. in the first place. AND whose minority government may be forced to call a general election in 2021.
Come back Donald! And Brexit. Statues and vegetarianism...is life worth living? Like a Greatest Easy Listening Tracks of the 60s album after punk has blown itself out.
Young TSE: "Do you want a drink?"
Young Sunil: "Got any Quorn?"
Young TSE: "If you want!" (He also takes a bottle of meat from the fridge).
Young Sunil: "Meat...? Ugh!"
Young TSE: "It's what Ian Rush drinks."
Young Sunil: "Ian Rush?"
Young TSE: "Yeah, an' he says if I don't drink lots of meat, when I grow up I'm only gonna be good enough to play for Accrington Stanley!"
Young Sunil: "Accrington Stanley? Who are they?"
Young TSE: "Exactly!"
Of course, Accrington Stanley is clearly NOT in the same league as, say, Partick Thistle.
Come back Donald! And Brexit. Statues and vegetarianism...is life worth living? Like a Greatest Easy Listening Tracks of the 60s album after punk has blown itself out.
Young TSE: "Do you want a drink?"
Young Sunil: "Got any Quorn?"
Young TSE: "If you want!" (He also takes a bottle of meat from the fridge).
Young Sunil: "Meat...? Ugh!"
Young TSE: "It's what Ian Rush drinks."
Young Sunil: "Ian Rush?"
Young TSE: "Yeah, an' he says if I don't drink lots of meat, when I grow up I'm only gonna be good enough to play for Accrington Stanley!"
Young Sunil: "Accrington Stanley? Who are they?"
Young TSE: "Exactly!"
Of course, Accrington Stanley is clearly NOT in the same league as, say, Partick Thistle.
I've just been on the Duke of Wellington's Wikipedia page. Have you seen how many titles the current duke has? It's ridiculous!
"Arthur Charles Valerian Wellesley, 9th Duke of Wellington, 9th Prince of Waterloo, 9th Duke of Victoria, 10th Duke of Ciudad Rodrigo"
How come CR has a different number?
Rights of Succession (being Spanish the dukedom went to the eldest child, not the eldest son).
In 1943, Anne Rhys (née Wellesley), the only daughter and eldest child of Arthur Wellesley, 5th Duke of Wellington, inherited the Spanish dukedom while having no rights to the British title of her family which passed to her uncle, after her younger brother was killed in action during the Second World War. In 1949 Anne renounced to the title in favor of her uncle Gerald Wellesley, 7th Duke of Wellington.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better.
Frankly we're better off dead, although I suspect that there may actually have been a surprise attack with nuclear weapons twelve months ago and the whole lot of us have already died and gone to Hell. It would explain a great many things.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Mornin' all. Half an hour of watching Priti Patel on the box yesterday is infectious. Got to agree with her, and the advisors, though; now isn't the time to be planning travel, much though I want to.
Can someone find something positive, please, apart from the news about Nissan. That about Biden taking over has worn off a bit, I'm afraid.
This seems, to put it mildly, a very optimistic assessment of the situation in the EU:
Von der Leyen said she expected the EU would soon have more vaccine than it will need. “In a couple of months in Europe we will have more doses than we can use,” she said.
This is part of her belief that the EU will have spare vaccines to give to LEDC countries, the international effort being about as convincing and effective as Dominic Cummings’ press statements.
In fact, every indication is that the situation in the EU is likely to get worse before it gets better. By trying to centralise vaccine procurement, they’ve done what the EU does best and made it incredibly slow and bureaucratic, without achieving notable efficiencies in procurement or economies of scale.
True, they haven’t done as badly as the United States, or Brazil, or China itself. And it is fair to say that with maybe half a dozen exceptions - Taiwan, New Zealand, Vietnam, Australia, South Korea - no country has actually responded well to the pandemic. But that’s a bit like saying somebody is a better uncle than Richard III.
Meanwhile, Hungary has authorised the use of the Russian vaccine. Unusually, not a sign of Orban’s personal hardon towards Putin - they authorised AZ as well. Just a sign of exasperation with the EU’s failure.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
It's an interesting model, but it also makes the odd assumption that the vaccination programme just stops after groups 1-4 are done when we know this won't be the case. I'd like to see their model expanded to groups 5-9 being done before the end of March (which is the blatantly obvious target).
These are also reductions on top of what is gained by lockdown and peak cases have fallen by around 40% by specimen date which will bring a 30-40% reduction in the other measures after a few weeks.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
Mornin' all. Half an hour of watching Priti Patel on the box yesterday is infectious. Got to agree with her, and the advisors, though; now isn't the time to be planning travel, much though I want to.
Can someone find something positive, please, apart from the news about Nissan. That about Biden taking over has worn off a bit, I'm afraid.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
Leon’s PB stream, for a start.
They will wonder why anyone would ever buy a flint dildo, and particularly wonder how those sales can fund the lifestyle of somebody who has travelled to so many obscure and expensive parts of the globe.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
Surely the most significant point is that news on battery production. We’re going to need lots of capacity on that one way and another if we’re not to have a balance of payments disaster. So although just a start, it’s an encouraging start. A government with any sense would be looking to encourage and enhance it, perhaps using the north east as a hub area for production.
BBC News - Nissan says Brexit deal 'positive' and commits to UK
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
It's an interesting model, but it also makes the odd assumption that the vaccination programme just stops after groups 1-4 are done when we know this won't be the case. I'd like to see their model expanded to groups 5-9 being done before the end of March (which is the blatantly obvious target).
Though at that point the overdue booster need doing for groups 1-4.
Personally, I would not forecast major relaxations before Easter or ending social distancing before the autumn, though hopefully we could mostly be in Tier 2.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
It's an interesting model, but it also makes the odd assumption that the vaccination programme just stops after groups 1-4 are done when we know this won't be the case. I'd like to see their model expanded to groups 5-9 being done before the end of March (which is the blatantly obvious target).
These are also reductions on top of what is gained by lockdown and peak cases have fallen by around 40% by specimen date which will bring a 30-40% reduction in the other measures after a few weeks.
I was wondering what the flat lines in March were about - that is a bizarre modelling assumption!
Up until March looks roughly in line with expectations, and suggests the key reason we went into lockdown - to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed - can be beaten in mid March if things go well, or late March/April if things go as expected. Of course it could go badly, but such is life.
Just updating my vaccine forecast, new central estimate is that we will have 7m people having had two doses by Easter Sunday and a further 35-38m with one dose by the same point in time. Everyone will have had at least one jab by the end of May and both by the middle of August.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
Agree re artificial meat - a lot of us in the animal welfare sector see it as the cavalry breasting the hill. There's a bit of resistance from people who like plant food and feel that's what everyone should like, but once lab-generated meat tastes the same (already true for mince) and costs half the price of meat, I think it'll sweep the board - people who feel they insist on an animal being killed to give them the *same* taste will seem very weird.
As for robots, I do recommend the computer game Wasteland 3 for these long winter evenings. Essentially a very wild survivalist role-playing game, it features among other things a community of peaceful communist robots, jostling for space next to a band of religious fanatics and a settlement of Ronald Reagon cultists. You're free to try allying with any of them against the others, but the robots sound promising to me.
For those interested in such things, it's got turn-based combat like Baldur's Gate, and lots of amusing dialogue and moral choices offered with agnostic neutrality. I've just indignantly killed a rather glamorous lady slaver, and done myself out of the advanced weaponry that she was offering me if I'd trick one of her escapees back into her hands. Leon, perhaps, might marry the slaver and build statues of himself, and that's probably an option too...
You would have to replace milk and cheese as well, presumably. It would have to be the full vegan. I suppose you could sex-select cows to avoid the male calf problem but you might not end up with genetically healthy animals.
There's a big issue of land management, too. All your hay meadows - gone. Who needs hay? All your wet pasture - gone. Who needs cows?
The other logical conclusion of this is banning pets, because many are kept in worse conditions than farm animals. Can you imagine the uproar...
Personally, I'd ban cats immediately, but I don't think it would stick as a government policy.
You'd need to take our cat out of my cold dead hands.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
That chart should be looked at in wider context, because it completely ignores the main input to the system, which is our behaviour and the R rate resulting from that. It basically assumes that R is 1 now and our behaviour doesn't change.
Current case numbers still look like we're below 1, so if we could keep that going, the curves will come down more quickly.
Conversely, if lockdown adherence deteriorates just slightly and R goes up to 1.1, that's probably already enough to undo the admissions improvements over that timeframe. And if went to tier 2, those improvements could be undone in a week.
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
Are you able to give a definitive view as to why about 75% of ICU admissions are of younger people (i.e. the non retired)?
Just updating my vaccine forecast, new central estimate is that we will have 7m people having had two doses by Easter Sunday and a further 35-38m with one dose by the same point in time. Everyone will have had at least one jab by the end of May and both by the middle of August.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Sometimes I like to speculate what about our society today will be condemned when the shifting moral zeitgeist has moved on.
If I had to guess, I'd say animal rights, or allowing AI to take over. Or both
As soon as we develop "artificial meat", the idea we bred living animals - higher mammals indeed - in appalling conditions, just so they could be slaughtered, will seem utterly barbaric, nearly as bad as slavery.
They will probably be tearing down statues of famous beef farmers, or owners of big food corps.
Likewise AI. It is quite likely to me that robots will take over. Perhaps in 2050 renegade bands of feral humans, escaping their computer overlords, will detonate statues of Bill Gates, or Elon Musk, like the proto-IRA attacking British imperialist symbols in Dublin, but less effectively.
No. And that's not me being rude, the reason I say this is because humanity has always eaten meat - to keep healthy. Even if we were to stop eating meat (which we won't) its part in our history for thousands of years means it can never be amongst those grotesqueries that symbolise their particular times. The vegetarian and vegan trend itself is a likelier candidate, and that's actually what I thought you meant. The idea of reducing the nutrition and deliciousness of our food out of courtesy to other species is a very 21st century thing. Not saying it comes from a bad place, because it doesn't, or that animal welfare isn't a good thing, because it is.
I've been a vegetarian for (nearly) thirty years, two thirds of my current lifetime.
Just updating my vaccine forecast, new central estimate is that we will have 7m people having had two doses by Easter Sunday and a further 35-38m with one dose by the same point in time. Everyone will have had at least one jab by the end of May and both by the middle of August.
Biden meanwhile is aiming for 100 million by the end of April, and got rather waspish with a journalist who questioned his approach:
Already worn out - like, I suspect, most of us to a greater or lesser degree - by nearly a year of this bullshit, I wake this morning to find that the mad scientists are once again raising the prospect of continuing to punish us for breathing for the rest of time...
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better. .
Calm down. He's not in charge, I promise you.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
Vaccination is not going to reduce pressure quickly on the NHS. Covid Actuary has modelled the effect on deaths, and these do indeed come down significantly, but admissions much less so, and ICU admissions less still.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
It's an interesting model, but it also makes the odd assumption that the vaccination programme just stops after groups 1-4 are done when we know this won't be the case. I'd like to see their model expanded to groups 5-9 being done before the end of March (which is the blatantly obvious target).
Though at that point the overdue booster need doing for groups 1-4.
Personally, I would not forecast major relaxations before Easter or ending social distancing before the autumn, though hopefully we could mostly be in Tier 2.
No, the first booster shots start in March, and capacity requirements are pretty low for quite a while given the slow December ramp up we had.
I think by the end of April hospitalisations and deaths will be so low that the government will have to relent on the lockdown, Tory MPs will threaten Boris if he keeps it going. Those green and yellow lines will keep falling, and vaccination capacity will keep rising, we don't stop after 15m people are jabbed a single time.
Comments
Today I learned that an acquaintance - a writer, woman, late 30s, perfectly healthy - has been in bed, crippled with Long Covid - for two months. With no sign of improvement yet. And , also today, I heard that a very close friend's mother-in-law died of it two days ago.
It gets nearer and nearer.
It is an awful disease. Sympathies.
Complex thing, history.
Made a comment about the tolerance of the number of deaths and illness caused by the near universal possession of the internal combustion engine some time ago when this was asked.
Received some abuse I can tell you.
https://japantoday.com/category/national/tokyo’s-new-giant-gundam-anime-robot-statue-unveiled
The term slave has its origins in the word slav. The slavs, who inhabited a large part of Eastern Europe, were taken as slaves by the Muslims of Spain during the ninth century AD.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/africa/features/storyofafrica/9chapter1.shtml#:~:text=The term slave has its,of forced and unpaid labour.
or
"They've fucked up doing X so its okay if we fuck up doing Y."
We can give the UK the award for crap border control, the USA the award for utterly useless politicians (not just Trump) and Canada the award for crap vaccination program.
I'm sure a few more countries are in the running for various other awards.
https://twitter.com/kamleshkhunti/status/1350779893659930624?s=19
The same team are looking now at patients who were not admitted. The increase of diabetes and cardiac events in survivors is worth noting. We have known about covid myocarditis for some time, but the diabetogenic effect was news to me.
https://twitter.com/zarkwan/status/1352393302809726976?s=21
(On the matter of awards, France is in line for the anti-vaxism gold, sadly)
Things that become the vulgarities of their time, are things like Elizabethan corsetry, Victorian language censoring, medieval witch dunking, Georgian lice-infested wigs, the Tulip craze. Things that were done for an original reason, but became an end in themselves, and in the end caused people to act in a way that was counter to their own good sense and often their welfare.
In this line, I think Biomass power will be seen as extremely stupid. I see it as extremely stupid now, so without the gloss of it being current, it will look grotesquely ridiculous.
Not going to go into 'woke', as it's been done to death, but it's a good candidate.
That 'this is healthy' Cosmo cover - the trend of 'self acceptance' becoming a toleration or even glamourisation of poor health - that has potential.
That's, like, WOW. To me. And truly frightening.
Just. Don't. Get. It.
They will literally point to laws preventing us treating animals like that and ask "How?"
General problem with this type of question is that it elicits exactly that kind of response. Here's a thing I don't like, I think everyone will come to agree with me!
Much more challenging is the question of what YOU hold dear that could be reviled in future.
The figures from the American VA are similar, so it doesn't seem to be just the NHS seeing this.
https://twitter.com/kamleshkhunti/status/1351803528340238336?s=19
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/israeli-behind-game-changing-covid-nasal-spray-says-its-99-9-effective/
I'm not that keen on wind turbines, but I don't think that when we look back on them, we'll see them as ridiculous, because they're sort of self-explanatory. But replacing reliable oil boilers, with unreliable biomass boilers, using crops grown halfways across the world on former rainforest, and transported here using the fuels they're designed to avoid using, still adding carbon to the atmosphere, has got 'ridiculous pursuit of zeitgeist' written all over it.
But I can imagine a time when we're conscious of our connectedness, perhaps even with some partial usually-on interface through wearable tech that makes privacy much more difficult. And I can imagine people getting really into it and thinking in the old days people were weird for not embracing it. And I don't like that thought.
As for robots, I do recommend the computer game Wasteland 3 for these long winter evenings. Essentially a very wild survivalist role-playing game, it features among other things a community of peaceful communist robots, jostling for space next to a band of religious fanatics and a settlement of Ronald Reagon cultists. You're free to try allying with any of them against the others, but the robots sound promising to me.
For those interested in such things, it's got turn-based combat like Baldur's Gate, and lots of amusing dialogue and moral choices offered with agnostic neutrality. I've just indignantly killed a rather glamorous lady slaver, and done myself out of the advanced weaponry that she was offering me if I'd trick one of her escapees back into her hands. Leon, perhaps, might marry the slaver and build statues of himself, and that's probably an option too...
But I was trying in my clumsy way to make a point about the pervasiveness of slavery throughout history around the world.
Maybe I should go to bed.
https://veggiefestchicago.org/vegetarianism-and-longevity/
Statues and vegetarianism...is life worth living?
Like a Greatest Easy Listening Tracks of the 60s album after punk has blown itself out.
There's a big issue of land management, too. All your hay meadows - gone. Who needs hay? All your wet pasture - gone. Who needs cows?
The other logical conclusion of this is banning pets, because many are kept in worse conditions than farm animals. Can you imagine the uproar...
Personally, I'd ban cats immediately, but I don't think it would stick as a government policy.
https://twitter.com/GerryHassan/status/1352406714763636736?s=20
Healing.
It said it will move additional battery production close to the plant where it has 6,000 direct employees and supports nearly 70,000 jobs in the supply chain.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55757930
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9173209/Health-Fat-fit-people-worse-heart-health-normal-weight-people-dont-exercise.html
Forget the statue topplers and transgenders in sports, I hope this nonsense about being significantly overweight and still "healthy" gets properly shot down. You would hope that COVID would form good evidence, but so far it seems "body positivity" trumps all.
That isn't to say we should take a Marjorie Dawes from Fat Fighters approach, but we do need a real focus on this....which after 2 weeks of Boris road to Damascus conversion has gone the way of "levelling up the North"...
Young Sunil: "Got any Quorn?"
Young TSE: "If you want!" (He also takes a bottle of meat from the fridge).
Young Sunil: "Meat...? Ugh!"
Young TSE: "It's what Ian Rush drinks."
Young Sunil: "Ian Rush?"
Young TSE: "Yeah, an' he says if I don't drink lots of meat, when I grow up I'm only gonna be good enough to play for Accrington Stanley!"
Young Sunil: "Accrington Stanley? Who are they?"
Young TSE: "Exactly!"
https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2021/01/21/governor-general-julie-payette-and-top-aide-have-resigned-reports.html
Gov.-Gen. Julie Payette and her secretary, Assunta di Lorenzo, are resigning after an outside workplace review of Rideau Hall found that the pair presided over a toxic work environment.
Last year, an independent consulting firm was hired by the Privy Council Office (PCO) to review reports that Payette was responsible for workplace harassment at Rideau Hall.
Sources who were briefed on the consulting firm's report told CBC News that its conclusions were damning.
President of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada Dominic LeBlanc told CBC's Vassy Kapelos the federal government received the final report late last week, which he said offered some "disturbing" and "worrisome" conclusions.
LeBlanc said Payette indicated her intention to resign during a meeting with Prime Minister Justin Trudeau last night, where they discussed the report's contents.
Addendum - for months this has been a big story up in the Great White North, and a huge embarrassment for Prime Minister Justin Trudeau, who selected the toxic ex-Gov. Gen. in the first place. AND whose minority government may be forced to call a general election in 2021.
Just kidding. The real answer is - Justin Trudeau.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieK7b4KLL4&ab_channel=vinnielo1
https://twitter.com/megschuster/status/1352360965178855424?s=21
In 1943, Anne Rhys (née Wellesley), the only daughter and eldest child of Arthur Wellesley, 5th Duke of Wellington, inherited the Spanish dukedom while having no rights to the British title of her family which passed to her uncle, after her younger brother was killed in action during the Second World War. In 1949 Anne renounced to the title in favor of her uncle Gerald Wellesley, 7th Duke of Wellington.
https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/21/politics/winston-churchill-bust-oval-office/index.html
Generally though we could do with considerably fewer statues, busts and paintings of old white British imperialists.
I don't include Churchill in that. For all his colonial faults he rose to the occasion magnificently when the country and world most needed him.
There is also pressure from scientists to maintain robust restrictions because research suggests vaccination alone may not be enough to shrink the coronavirus epidemic.
Prof Mark Woolhouse, chair of infectious disease epidemiology at the University of Edinburgh, said even in a best-case scenario it was unlikely vaccine uptake would be above 90%, meaning about 1 million vulnerable people would remain susceptible to Covid after the first phase of the programme. In addition, none of the approved Covid vaccines have a greater than 95% efficacy against Covid symptoms.
“The general consensus is that a gradual releasing of restrictions would be possible but we would have to feel our way there, the way we did after the first lockdown,” Woolhouse said. But he added: “If [Covid vaccines] can’t take us past the [herd immunity] threshold, then we are going to be living with some kind of countermeasures for ever.”
Given that cruel lunatics like this are now clearly in complete control of events, we must face a future in which masks, social distancing, staying at home and never seeing most of the people we love again except remotely through a screen is what we've got left. It will never get better.
Frankly we're better off dead, although I suspect that there may actually have been a surprise attack with nuclear weapons twelve months ago and the whole lot of us have already died and gone to Hell. It would explain a great many things.
Well that's now reversed. Pfizer's supply cut to the EU is a massive cock-up. They had 12 months to get their factory prepared properly.
As infection rates continue falling and the vaccinations rise the clamour for relaxation will become such a groundswell that the learned Prof will be shunted to the sidelines. I promise.
The Govt are making sure at the moment that they give no impression of relaxation. If they do they could blow the great work going on right now to curb the virus.
McConnell planning to string the Dems along with his timetabling?
We've seen the Waiting for Godot/Bipartisanship play before.
Half an hour of watching Priti Patel on the box yesterday is infectious. Got to agree with her, and the advisors, though; now isn't the time to be planning travel, much though I want to.
Can someone find something positive, please, apart from the news about Nissan. That about Biden taking over has worn off a bit, I'm afraid.
Von der Leyen said she expected the EU would soon have more vaccine than it will need. “In a couple of months in Europe we will have more doses than we can use,” she said.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-leaders-see-dark-red-as-pandemic-worsens-and-urge-brussels-to-speed-up-vaccine-delivery/
This is part of her belief that the EU will have spare vaccines to give to LEDC countries, the international effort being about as convincing and effective as Dominic Cummings’ press statements.
In fact, every indication is that the situation in the EU is likely to get worse before it gets better. By trying to centralise vaccine procurement, they’ve done what the EU does best and made it incredibly slow and bureaucratic, without achieving notable efficiencies in procurement or economies of scale.
True, they haven’t done as badly as the United States, or Brazil, or China itself. And it is fair to say that with maybe half a dozen exceptions - Taiwan, New Zealand, Vietnam, Australia, South Korea - no country has actually responded well to the pandemic. But that’s a bit like saying somebody is a better uncle than Richard III.
Meanwhile, Hungary has authorised the use of the Russian vaccine. Unusually, not a sign of Orban’s personal hardon towards Putin - they authorised AZ as well. Just a sign of exasperation with the EU’s failure.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55747623
Edit: come back that last post, he just has!
And remember, India beat Australia at the Gabba, with their second string side, and that isn’t going to change.
This relies on the assumptions that a single dose is 70% effective at preventing disease, and 100% effective in stopping serious disease, which some would question.
This means that social measures cannot be abandoned just yet. A 59% reduction in admissions still means 180 admissions in my Trust, and a 34% reduction in ICU would still leave 20 odd covid ICU and a similar number of HDU. This would remain a major hindrance to normal NHS activity.
These are also reductions on top of what is gained by lockdown and peak cases have fallen by around 40% by specimen date which will bring a 30-40% reduction in the other measures after a few weeks.
Personally, I would not forecast major relaxations before Easter or ending social distancing before the autumn, though hopefully we could mostly be in Tier 2.
Up until March looks roughly in line with expectations, and suggests the key reason we went into lockdown - to protect the NHS from being overwhelmed - can be beaten in mid March if things go well, or late March/April if things go as expected. Of course it could go badly, but such is life.
Current case numbers still look like we're below 1, so if we could keep that going, the curves will come down more quickly.
Conversely, if lockdown adherence deteriorates just slightly and R goes up to 1.1, that's probably already enough to undo the admissions improvements over that timeframe. And if went to tier 2, those improvements could be undone in a week.
Biden signs 10 executive orders as part of 'wartime' Covid plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55750884
I think by the end of April hospitalisations and deaths will be so low that the government will have to relent on the lockdown, Tory MPs will threaten Boris if he keeps it going. Those green and yellow lines will keep falling, and vaccination capacity will keep rising, we don't stop after 15m people are jabbed a single time.