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Remainers markedly more positive about Biden than leavers – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited January 2021 in General
imageRemainers markedly more positive about Biden than leavers – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    I second that.
  • TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes.....
  • Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....
  • TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Only 40 odd years to go...
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    I thought Brexit had been decided on now?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 4,199
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Lab = Remain and Con = Leave is a pretty good rule of thumb. Works here.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes.....
    Yes what?

    Yes Its just him?

    or Yes its getting .......
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
  • Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Well of course they are. Being older, and all.
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    EXCL: Scottish govt official 'asked for account of when they knew about Salmond complaints to be changed'


    Oh.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
    Most flip flops are vegan I would think.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 595
    It is slightly depressing how the fawning coverage of Harris has been based almost entirely on her gender and ethnicity. The fact her own presidential campaign didn't even make it to Iowa seems to have been entirely forgotten.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    The 13-14% of Leave and Conservative voters who think relations will get worse under Biden are presumably many of the 13% who were cited in this morning's thread as having a favourable impression of former President Trump.

    That's the hard core of British Trump supporters - 13-14%. Are they all Leave-voting Conservatives?

    Well...
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited January 2021

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Just remember that ethics is a county in Southern England where everyone looks like they've been gangbanged by a pack of wotsits.

    Also remember that

    1) I would not do well in prison

    2) The scandal would kill my mother

    3) It would be a career ender and I like earning money

    But saying the below might see you through

    1) Morally it is the wrong thing to do

    2) It would cause a lack of trust in the profession

    3) There are no victimless crimes
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    Are you also a climate change denier?
    I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
    Most flip flops are vegan I would think.
    At the value end of the market, you're probably right.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away

    Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again

    But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far

    I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.

    This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.

  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    You had better have an early night then 😊
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Leon said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    Replace all statues of slavers with statues of William Wilberforce.

    Everyone will be happy.

    Wilberforce? Terrible misogynist, and possibly a pedo. Look into it. I jest not.


    Also, a bit of a slaver

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/03/wilberforce-slavery-sierra-leone
    And a sop and get out of jail card to the white man's conscience. Like bigging yourself up for raping and robbing someone and then giving them their bus fare home.
    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
    You can already advocate for tearing down statues of David Attenborough

    He became patron of these
    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/attenborough-patron-optimum-population-trust

    Who among other things did this
    https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/charity-which-campaigned-to-ban-syrian-refugees-from-britain/

    I am sure there is grist for the baying mob there
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723

    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
    In front of lawyers surely?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited January 2021
    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to go away.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
  • Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.
  • TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    It's just you.

    Brexit was a shocking event with terrific consequences never to be forgotten despite clear risk to personal sanity.

    Sorta like Prince Andrew's wedding? Or when Monica Lewinsky asked Bill Clinton, do you want anything else with your pizza?
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 14,884
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.

    FPT

    You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
    Especially if it didn't happen.
    It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
    Well she’s not that tall is she?😀
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960
    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"

    I didn't try to dissuade him
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    edited January 2021

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
  • Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
    Sorry to break it to you mate - never happening again.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
    The last five words in the post you are replying to were put there specially for you, Sunil.
  • Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
  • Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047

    kamski said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    No, not just you, it's been total bollocks for a while now.

    I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
    Nah. Leave voters don't ski....
    I do! Have not for years though tbf.
    Sorry to break it to you mate - never happening again.
    Well I live in Scotland, so all I really have to do is find a hill and wait for snow. :smiley:

    In all seriousness I've never skied here - I've heard it's quite an experience compared to the Alps.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153
    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊
  • I AM WOMAN
    by Helen Reddy and Ray Burton

    I am woman, hear me roar
    In numbers too big to ignore
    And I know too much to go back an' pretend
    'Cause I've heard it all before
    And I've been down there on the floor
    No one's ever gonna keep me down again

    Oh yes I am wise
    But it's wisdom born of pain
    Yes, I've paid the price
    But look how much I gained
    If I have to, I can do anything
    I am strong
    I am invincible
    I am woman

    You can bend but never break me
    'Cause it only serves to make me
    More determined to achieve my final goal
    And I come back even stronger
    Not a novice any longer
    'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul

    Oh yes I am wise
    But it's wisdom born of pain
    Yes, I've paid the price
    But look how much I gained
    If I have to, I can do anything
    I am strong
    I am invincibe
    I am woman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rptW7zOPX2E
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Leon said:

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.

    Shit.

    That's the second time in two days I've agreed with one of your posts.

    I'm going to sign off for a bit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Chris Packham's stepdaughter. Ooof.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,739
    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    https://twitter.com/TomDutty/status/1352341124657127428

    Bernie has the best seat at Anfield.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Liverpool may not even finish top in the City of Liverpool.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
  • Leon said:

    Chris Packham's stepdaughter. Ooof.

    She looks OK :)
  • Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
    Did say "NOT"! And was thinking about close results in AZ, GA, MI, PA, WI.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,153

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    Actually I think it will be Man U. Leicester will fall away and I think Ole might just do it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    On topic, I would have to answer 'Not important at all' to me, as I'm not an American. Just as Jacinda being PM of NZ is not important to me. Her election (if we can call any VP as being elected) is significant to the US, but that is a different question.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 10,343
    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
  • algarkirk said:

    Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.

    Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
    THIS is where you deploy the "Dewey, Cheatem & Howe" reference., as advised by notable legal experts Click & Clack.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 46,268
    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Foxy said:

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
    And me - lumped on Man C for title this morning.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    Leon said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away

    Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again

    But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far

    I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.

    This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.

    For once I agree with you.

    This is spot on.

    I couldn’t give a fuck about Brexit anymore, I just want the whole thing to go away.

    I hardly hear about it these days, among my friends, most of whom would have been known as “hardcore remoaners” on PB.

    If anything Leavers mention it more, like they were stuck in the jungle and are still fighting the last war.

    Enough.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    To be fair rejoin is fashionable now. Much more fashionable than I expected to be honest. Even I don't support rejoin!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited January 2021
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
    The statue fetish as a national pursuit appears a relatively recent thing, Victorian? Seems odd that they’ve become such an intrinsic part of the UK myth (for those who like that sort of thing).
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,840
    Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
    All of which may be true.
    But those kind of considerations are how every vice president has always been chosen.
    Can't think of a time "the best person for the job" came into it.
  • Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,286
    "TV licence fee decriminalisation decision shelved"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55754914
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    A) yee

    B) the conclusion is wrong (or not proven). As well as Remainers being more positive on Biden they could be more hostile towards Trump. The question was a relative one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
  • alednamalednam Posts: 185
    algarkirk said:

    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.

    So it always is with pollster's questions. It can be unclear, for instance, what it means to "approve" of someone.
    We were told what they'd been asked. And I find the results rather interesting. It's interesting, for instance, to see what correlation (if any) there is between Remain/Leave and Labour/Conservative.
    If the pollsters were to seek answers to refined questions, it's possible that the majority of respondents wouldn't understand quite what was being asked.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    And the Spanish. The Iberians settled the New World 100 years before the UK and France.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    Actually I think it will be Man U. Leicester will fall away and I think Ole might just do it.
    I think Vardy will be out for a couple of weeks. We are going to miss him. He didn't score in the last matches, but his movement creates a lot of space for our increasingly formidable midfielders.
  • novanova Posts: 525
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    Best switch off my phone.

    OGH is going to be unbearable.

    Leicester fans happy too...🙂
    And me - lumped on Man C for title this morning.
    I punted on United when they were 12-1, despite having the best record in the PL over nearly 30 games.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis!
    What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
    My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:

    "When my journal appears, many statues must come down."

    It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
    Except that, since he was neither a barbarian nor a backward philistine, the Iron Duke didn't destroy Canova's monumental statue of Napoleon as Mars Pacifer, but moved it to the staircase of his own home in Apsley House - where it has stood for 200 years to the present day.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Police prioritised for spare Covid vaccines under local NHS deals

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/

    Bloody queue jumpers....

    They should be the back of the queue.
    Glad they're getting some sort of priority.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Leon said:

    Endillion said:

    TimT said:

    Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?

    Yes and no.

    Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
    Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.

    In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
    Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.

    Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.

    That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
    It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.

    It has been accepted, happily or sadly.

    That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
    Correct. It's happened and the heat has gone from the issue.

    But we'll always look down on Leavers. That's for keeps.

    And their children and grandchildren.
  • Endillion said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?

    Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?

    Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
    Why? A combination of:

    1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
    2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
    3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.

    Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
    "Some speculation" all well & good so far as it goes. Though when he made his actual selection, there were several Black women in the running ahead of Stacey Abrams.

    As to your three points, 1) is way overblown, but still a consideration, though outranked by 2) & 3).

    Think the most important was actually

    4) Tapping into a half century of feminism (as personified by the late, great Helen Reddy) as shared by a broad spectrum of American women, including many potential and ACTUAL swing voters who swung to Biden-Harris, especially among suburban voters in places like metro Atlanta and Phoenix.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    Liverpool season over. Another 30 year wait lads!

    Leicester new favourites! 😊

    Man City should surely be favourites now?
    They were odds on favs before. I got 1.6.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"

    I didn't try to dissuade him

    AstraZeneca the company with a Swedish anchor shareholder and a French CEO?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
    Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,960
    kinabalu said:

    Endillion said:

    It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.

    You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
    I don't really care as much as my comment might've made it seem; I just can't see it as an achievement under the circumstances.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Andy_JS said:

    "TV licence fee decriminalisation decision shelved"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55754914

    Cummings no longer in the building.
  • alednamalednam Posts: 185
    algarkirk said:

    This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.

    Without some context it feels like waffle.

    Of course people have different views one from another what it would be for US/UK relations to be better or worse. But we can know what respondents think about whether they'd be better or worse without specifying what it would be, as far as they were concerned, for relations to be better or worse. And it can hardly be for those conducting the poll to say what it would be, as far as the polling company was concerned, for relations to be better or worse.
    There's a limit to what opinion polls can show. But don't we have to accept that there are such limits?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,618
    How long is this trial expected to take? This looks potentially amazing.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Endillion said:

    Leon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Leon said:

    A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.

    As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.

    When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
    Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.

    So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.

    Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
    I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
    ... which in turn is predicated on Brexit.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited January 2021
    Good showing from Ireland in latest update (up from #15 to #4):

    https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/


  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Leon said:

    fpt for Ishmael

    Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.

    If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.

    Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.

    Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
    Portugal beat us to it.
    Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
    What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
    Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
    Ah, all of a sudden we've found some slavetraders whose identity doesn't matter! Amazing.
This discussion has been closed.