Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.
FPT
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
Especially if it didn't happen.
Are you also a climate change denier?
I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.
FPT
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
Especially if it didn't happen.
Are you also a climate change denier?
I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
It is slightly depressing how the fawning coverage of Harris has been based almost entirely on her gender and ethnicity. The fact her own presidential campaign didn't even make it to Iowa seems to have been entirely forgotten.
The 13-14% of Leave and Conservative voters who think relations will get worse under Biden are presumably many of the 13% who were cited in this morning's thread as having a favourable impression of former President Trump.
That's the hard core of British Trump supporters - 13-14%. Are they all Leave-voting Conservatives?
Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
Just remember that ethics is a county in Southern England where everyone looks like they've been gangbanged by a pack of wotsits.
Also remember that
1) I would not do well in prison
2) The scandal would kill my mother
3) It would be a career ender and I like earning money
But saying the below might see you through
1) Morally it is the wrong thing to do
2) It would cause a lack of trust in the profession
Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.
FPT
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
Especially if it didn't happen.
Are you also a climate change denier?
I just think it would be quite amusing to have a 99 with flake in the shade of Greta in the year 2050, with nary a rockpool to cover her vegan flip flops.
Most flip flops are vegan I would think.
At the value end of the market, you're probably right.
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
Yes and no.
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away
Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again
But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far
I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.
This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.
Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
And a sop and get out of jail card to the white man's conscience. Like bigging yourself up for raping and robbing someone and then giving them their bus fare home.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
You can already advocate for tearing down statues of David Attenborough
Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.
FPT
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
Especially if it didn't happen.
It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Put it on a beach, and then we can all watch it be slowly submerged over the decades to come. Both sides should enjoy that.
FPT
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
Especially if it didn't happen.
It definitely would happen (sea levels have been rising far longer than greenhouse gas levels) but probably far too slowly to make much of a point. Unless you made her a midget.
I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
Yes and no.
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.
In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.
Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.
That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.
It has been accepted, happily or sadly.
That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
The UK invented slavery? So it was Brits wot taught it to the Romans and Greeks?
The last five words in the post you are replying to were put there specially for you, Sunil.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis! What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
I am woman, hear me roar In numbers too big to ignore And I know too much to go back an' pretend 'Cause I've heard it all before And I've been down there on the floor No one's ever gonna keep me down again
Oh yes I am wise But it's wisdom born of pain Yes, I've paid the price But look how much I gained If I have to, I can do anything I am strong I am invincible I am woman
You can bend but never break me 'Cause it only serves to make me More determined to achieve my final goal And I come back even stronger Not a novice any longer 'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul
Oh yes I am wise But it's wisdom born of pain Yes, I've paid the price But look how much I gained If I have to, I can do anything I am strong I am invincibe I am woman
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
Yes and no.
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.
In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.
Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.
That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.
It has been accepted, happily or sadly.
That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
Shit.
That's the second time in two days I've agreed with one of your posts.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis! What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:
"When my journal appears, many statues must come down."
It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
He didn't lose by 7 million popular votes and 74 electoral votes?
Did say "NOT"! And was thinking about close results in AZ, GA, MI, PA, WI.
On topic, I would have to answer 'Not important at all' to me, as I'm not an American. Just as Jacinda being PM of NZ is not important to me. Her election (if we can call any VP as being elected) is significant to the US, but that is a different question.
This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
Why? A combination of:
1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women; 2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and 3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.
Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
Hey @TheScreamingEagles I have one final "Professional Conduct" exam tomorrow. I'll be sure to apply everything you've taught me on here over the years.
Don't forget the importance of not being found out.
THIS is where you deploy the "Dewey, Cheatem & Howe" reference., as advised by notable legal experts Click & Clack.
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.
As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.
When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.
So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.
Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
Yes and no.
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
But it is boring. It would be nice if it went away
Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again
But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far
I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.
This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.
For once I agree with you.
This is spot on.
I couldn’t give a fuck about Brexit anymore, I just want the whole thing to go away.
I hardly hear about it these days, among my friends, most of whom would have been known as “hardcore remoaners” on PB.
If anything Leavers mention it more, like they were stuck in the jungle and are still fighting the last war.
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.
As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.
When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.
So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.
Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.
As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.
When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.
So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.
Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
To be fair rejoin is fashionable now. Much more fashionable than I expected to be honest. Even I don't support rejoin!
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis! What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:
"When my journal appears, many statues must come down."
It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
The statue fetish as a national pursuit appears a relatively recent thing, Victorian? Seems odd that they’ve become such an intrinsic part of the UK myth (for those who like that sort of thing).
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
Why? A combination of:
1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women; 2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and 3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.
Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
All of which may be true. But those kind of considerations are how every vice president has always been chosen. Can't think of a time "the best person for the job" came into it.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
A) yee
the conclusion is wrong (or not proven). As well as Remainers being more positive on Biden they could be more hostile towards Trump. The question was a relative one.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.
Without some context it feels like waffle.
So it always is with pollster's questions. It can be unclear, for instance, what it means to "approve" of someone. We were told what they'd been asked. And I find the results rather interesting. It's interesting, for instance, to see what correlation (if any) there is between Remain/Leave and Labour/Conservative. If the pollsters were to seek answers to refined questions, it's possible that the majority of respondents wouldn't understand quite what was being asked.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
And the Spanish. The Iberians settled the New World 100 years before the UK and France.
Actually I think it will be Man U. Leicester will fall away and I think Ole might just do it.
I think Vardy will be out for a couple of weeks. We are going to miss him. He didn't score in the last matches, but his movement creates a lot of space for our increasingly formidable midfielders.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Defcon 1 stachoo pulled down, British society is in crisis! What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
My favourite current quote on statues is a Duke of Wellington:
"When my journal appears, many statues must come down."
It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
Except that, since he was neither a barbarian nor a backward philistine, the Iron Duke didn't destroy Canova's monumental statue of Napoleon as Mars Pacifer, but moved it to the staircase of his own home in Apsley House - where it has stood for 200 years to the present day.
Is it just me, or is this viewing of all things through the remainer/brexiter lens getting both tedious and a little forced?
Yes and no.
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
Was, not is. The last few elections were largely if not entirely seen through the prism of Brexit. The same may not be true going forward.
In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
Leavers think their way of life perpetually under attack/threat from those Remain inclined.
Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.
That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to away.
It is going away. See my prior comment. It has completely disappeared as a subject of discussion in my friendship group (which is widely varied), and not just because people don't want to argue any more.
It has been accepted, happily or sadly.
That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
Correct. It's happened and the heat has gone from the issue.
But we'll always look down on Leavers. That's for keeps.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
Why do you think Biden made that pledge? And do you think THAT might be relevant?
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
Why? A combination of:
1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women; 2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and 3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.
Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
"Some speculation" all well & good so far as it goes. Though when he made his actual selection, there were several Black women in the running ahead of Stacey Abrams.
As to your three points, 1) is way overblown, but still a consideration, though outranked by 2) & 3).
Think the most important was actually
4) Tapping into a half century of feminism (as personified by the late, great Helen Reddy) as shared by a broad spectrum of American women, including many potential and ACTUAL swing voters who swung to Biden-Harris, especially among suburban voters in places like metro Atlanta and Phoenix.
I was speaking to a leaver on a local forum yesterday who was waiting for the "English Vaccine" and turning down Pfizer and "Astra Zenicer" because they were" foreign"
I didn't try to dissuade him
AstraZeneca the company with a Swedish anchor shareholder and a French CEO?
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
It is fundamentally irrelevant to me that Biden's VP is a woman, because Biden literally announced that he wasn't even going to consider anyone for the position who wasn't.
You wanted her to prevail at a panel interview against some men?
I don't really care as much as my comment might've made it seem; I just can't see it as an achievement under the circumstances.
This kind of opinion survey tells you just a bit less than you would want to know. In particular, What do people think would count as a 'Better or Worse' relationship with the USA? - the answer is not self evident. And secondly what are the differences between Leavers and Remainers in how they see 'Better or Worse'.
Without some context it feels like waffle.
Of course people have different views one from another what it would be for US/UK relations to be better or worse. But we can know what respondents think about whether they'd be better or worse without specifying what it would be, as far as they were concerned, for relations to be better or worse. And it can hardly be for those conducting the poll to say what it would be, as far as the polling company was concerned, for relations to be better or worse. There's a limit to what opinion polls can show. But don't we have to accept that there are such limits?
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU.
As they did in the 70's when we were the sick man of Europe.
When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
Yes, quite possible. Start your Rejoin party now, like Alan Sked starting UKIP in about 1990. Took him a quarter of a century to get a vote. I remember meeting him back then in a bar in Fitzrovia. Smart guy, bit eccentric, good drinker.
So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.
Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
I don't wish him luck. His plan is predicated on a massive drop in living standards (relative or absolute) in the UK over the next few decades.
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
Agreed about Wilberforce, my objection was not to him but to people who big up the UK on the basis of abolishing slavery without putting anything on the debit side for having largely invented it in its then current form.
Portugal beat us to it.
Yes, but it was us that turned it into the triangle trade, with profits on each leg of the journey.
What race were the people *selling* the slaves?
Irrelevant, they wouldn't have been selling if we weren't buying.
Ah, all of a sudden we've found some slavetraders whose identity doesn't matter! Amazing.
Comments
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/21/exclusive-police-prioritised-spare-covid-vaccines-local-nhs/
Bloody queue jumpers....
Alongside with age, how you voted in the EU Ref is the better predictor of you vote/view things according to the pollsters and social scientists.
You joke, but that would be quite a powerful symbol.
I have been expecting a survey to show that people who voted Leave are more likely to die from coronavirus...
Yes Its just him?
or Yes its getting .......
Actually, I am an admirer of Wilberforce. He was a brave man who did great things, but, was he flawed? OF course he fucking was. But so is everyone. Martin Luther King is implicated in gang rape. Gandhi as an old man slept with his teenage nieces. Churchill was a bigoted old drunk, Lincoln was a classical racist.
If you want to tear down every statue of every man or woman with a flaw we now find unacceptable, I genuinely think you would have no statues of anyone born before about 1990. And in ten years we will tearing down them, as well. In 2030 we will be attacking statues of Barack Obama and David Attenborough. It is insane.
Iconoclasm is a classic symptom of a society in crisis.
In this case, Leave vs Remain is most likely a proxy for Right vs Left, age, and/or whether or not you consider yourself part of a minority group.
Oh.
That's the hard core of British Trump supporters - 13-14%. Are they all Leave-voting Conservatives?
Well...
Also remember that
1) I would not do well in prison
2) The scandal would kill my mother
3) It would be a career ender and I like earning money
But saying the below might see you through
1) Morally it is the wrong thing to do
2) It would cause a lack of trust in the profession
3) There are no victimless crimes
Anecdata: it has gone away with my friends and rellies. For quite a while there was a serious division, bordering on poisonous, between Leavers and Remainers - amongst my friends and fam. Arguments that got so bad it nearly became never-speaking-to-you-again
But, it never got that bad. People pulled back. Now, as far as I can see, Remainers have accepted Brexit had to happen, and has happened, and they are adjusting; Leavers are pleased that it has happened, tho they ruefully accept it is not the Nirvana they hoped for, so far
I cannot remember the last Leave/Remain argument I personally witnessed. It is done.
This is a good thing, for the country. We don't want the divisions of America.
He became patron of these
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2009/apr/14/attenborough-patron-optimum-population-trust
Who among other things did this
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/charity-which-campaigned-to-ban-syrian-refugees-from-britain/
I am sure there is grist for the baying mob there
Remainers think Brexit is a disaster, which has been the greatest attack on their values.
That's why Brexit as a values issue isn't going to go away.
OGH is going to be unbearable.
Brexit was a shocking event with terrific consequences never to be forgotten despite clear risk to personal sanity.
Sorta like Prince Andrew's wedding? Or when Monica Lewinsky asked Bill Clinton, do you want anything else with your pizza?
I didn't try to dissuade him
It has been accepted, happily or sadly.
That is to say: tt has happened. Deal with it. That is the attitude. It will now cause bad things or good things. Some see it as like a natural disaster - cf the Asian Tsunami, almost completely negative, but we move on - some see it as a positive but now historic rupture - like the American Revolution (with a bit of Tsunami chucked in), again: we move on as an independent nation
A new generation is growing up with the UK outside the EU. The issue will go away for most people, it is already going away (even if we can anticipate years of page 7 stories of Brexit problems at the border). Brexit is now history.
Interesting to speculate after the fact, IF Uncle Joe's opponent would have done better - possibly enough to win - IF he'd dumped Mike Pence and substituted Nicki Haley?
Personally think the answer is, yes. Perhaps NOT enough to prevail, but then he didn't lose by all that much.
What with Winny’s bust being removed and the special relationship fucked, we may as well start looking out the cyanide pills.
In all seriousness I've never skied here - I've heard it's quite an experience compared to the Alps.
Leicester new favourites! 😊
by Helen Reddy and Ray Burton
I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much to go back an' pretend
'Cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna keep me down again
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman
You can bend but never break me
'Cause it only serves to make me
More determined to achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'Cause you've deepened the conviction in my soul
Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong
I am invincibe
I am woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rptW7zOPX2E
That's the second time in two days I've agreed with one of your posts.
I'm going to sign off for a bit.
"When my journal appears, many statues must come down."
It's almost as if pulling down statues has a venerable British history...
When that happens again there will be a campaign to rejoin, led by a Conservative and Unionist perhaps.
Bernie has the best seat at Anfield.
Without some context it feels like waffle.
1) Combatting a perceived weakness due to his own dodgy history with women;
2) Doubling down on Trump's pre-existing weakness among female voters; and
3) Political convenience, since large numbers in his own party clearly believed it was important.
Possibly a minor component of believing it was the "right" thing to do of his own accord, but it would still carry a lot more weight with me if he'd simply announced that Harris was the best person for the job. As I recall, there was some speculation at the time he'd privately committed to a BAME VP pick to shore up his primary chances in the South, which effectively means Harris had no competition beyond Stacey Abrams.
So you should get your Rejoin vote in ~25 years (which seems right: that's a generation). 2040 or so. Good luck - and I mean that genuinely.
Politics relies on people caring about unfashionable causes, and making them fashionable.
This is spot on.
I couldn’t give a fuck about Brexit anymore, I just want the whole thing to go away.
I hardly hear about it these days, among my friends, most of whom would have been known as “hardcore remoaners” on PB.
If anything Leavers mention it more, like they were stuck in the jungle and are still fighting the last war.
Enough.
But those kind of considerations are how every vice president has always been chosen.
Can't think of a time "the best person for the job" came into it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55754914
the conclusion is wrong (or not proven). As well as Remainers being more positive on Biden they could be more hostile towards Trump. The question was a relative one.
We were told what they'd been asked. And I find the results rather interesting. It's interesting, for instance, to see what correlation (if any) there is between Remain/Leave and Labour/Conservative.
If the pollsters were to seek answers to refined questions, it's possible that the majority of respondents wouldn't understand quite what was being asked.
But we'll always look down on Leavers. That's for keeps.
And their children and grandchildren.
As to your three points, 1) is way overblown, but still a consideration, though outranked by 2) & 3).
Think the most important was actually
4) Tapping into a half century of feminism (as personified by the late, great Helen Reddy) as shared by a broad spectrum of American women, including many potential and ACTUAL swing voters who swung to Biden-Harris, especially among suburban voters in places like metro Atlanta and Phoenix.
There's a limit to what opinion polls can show. But don't we have to accept that there are such limits?
https://www.politico.eu/coronavirus-in-europe/