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Speed reading – politicalbetting.com

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  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,765

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    You think there's no competition in the medical profession?
  • theProletheProle Posts: 699
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious

    You do know they are 'skippers'
    Who cares?

    Failing to address the points I raise though.

    Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?

    Answer came there none...
    You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned

    You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work

    So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
    They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
    If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    This seems to refer to inshore shellfish whereas I am talking of the Scottish fleets fishing out of Peterhead and Kinlochbervie

    Very different
    It says that the visa requirements for outside the 12 mile limit are less onerous, so hiring Filipino crews are much less of an issue.

    "Bigger east-coast vessels that work outside 12 miles do not have a problem, as foreign crews can be given work visas because the boats work outside UK territorial waters."

    Do you not see that the problem is a capitalist system that has driven down payrates for Scottish crews to such a point d inthat no one wants to do so?
    Isn't the problem a combination of:
    - we've opened up what used to be a tolerably well paid profession to almost anyone in the world via our immigration policies, thus driving down wages
    - by giving away large chunks of our fishing rights on joining the EU, as well as by (necessary) action to prevent overfishing, there are too many boats, and each boat is operating at a fraction of its true annual production potential - this means the crew are unproductive compared to their true potential, which ends up reflected in their wages.

    The idea of capitalism (although I suspect you actually mean a free market economy, which isn't necessarily the same thing at all) driving down wages to the point where no one will take the work is a logical absurdity. The effect of normal market behaviour is to drive down wages to the minimum required to get workers. The problem is that traditional Scottish crews are being underbid to a huge extent by Filipino crews. This is not a failure of capitalism, or free market economics.

    The obvious solution (assuming, as every poster above has, that we care more about those who want to be Scottish fishing crew than the Filipino crews, or the consumers of fish) is to restrict the Filipino crews from having visas - if the fishing boats can't obtain crew, pay rates will gradually rise.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    Think this is actually my fight big g
    I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
    Until New Years Day, Doctors and Specialists from 27 countries could freely come here to work, indeed I have appointed many as my colleagues when head of department. As of next week they cannot. Brexit has therefore reduced competition in my field. Indeed wasn't that the purpose of Brexit?

    If you want me to compete, you should support rejoining the Single Market and restoring free movement.
  • Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,470
    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    What a system.
    Summat to be fervently patriotic about I should cocoa.
    I thought it was Blair himself who was turning down the award. Perhaps that was for a peerage.
    That's not what the article says...
    And even were it so the fact that means Brown can't get one is ludicrous.
    The entire process is utter cobblers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,003
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    What a system.
    Summat to be fervently patriotic about I should cocoa.
    I thought it was Blair himself who was turning down the award. Perhaps that was for a peerage.
    Would he want to declare all his interests?

    It has been kind of noticable all these former politicians and fossilised backbenchers who get knighthoods and the former PMs are not.
    I don't think you are required to disclose anything for a knighthood. But it does seem like he's holding the gongs up for every other living PM ;)
  • Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    You think there's no competition in the medical profession?
    Big G is talking out of his rear as usual.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 81,512
    RobD said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    dixiedean said:

    What a system.
    Summat to be fervently patriotic about I should cocoa.
    I thought it was Blair himself who was turning down the award. Perhaps that was for a peerage.
    Would he want to declare all his interests?

    It has been kind of noticable all these former politicians and fossilised backbenchers who get knighthoods and the former PMs are not.
    I don't think you are required to disclose anything for a knighthood.
    Indeed, but you suggested he was turning it down for a peerage. Not sure he wants one, nor any of our PMs thesedays. Plenty don't follow it up, but being a peer is supposed to come with expectations and responsibilities. Gets in the way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    edited December 2020
    theProle said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    Anyone talking of captains when it comes to the Scottish Fishing fleet is hilarious

    You do know they are 'skippers'
    Who cares?

    Failing to address the points I raise though.

    Why do the "Skippers" have to hire Filipinos and Ukrainians, if so many Brits are so keen to work the boats?

    Answer came there none...
    You sneer at the fishermen who for many of our family's generations have gone to sea from the north east of Scotland and where many a father husband or son drowned

    You do not know or understand the nature of the communities that, unlike mining, undertake a sustainable and important source of food and indeed for those communities work

    So why do they no longer want to do it, so that the skippers are relying on Filipinos and Ukrainians?
    They do want to do it and I understand £100 million is to be given by grants from HMG for new boats and improved shore facilities
    If they do want to do it, why are so many crews made up of Filipinos?. Note that they can only get visas if no qualified Briton applies for the job.

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    This seems to refer to inshore shellfish whereas I am talking of the Scottish fleets fishing out of Peterhead and Kinlochbervie

    Very different
    It says that the visa requirements for outside the 12 mile limit are less onerous, so hiring Filipino crews are much less of an issue.

    "Bigger east-coast vessels that work outside 12 miles do not have a problem, as foreign crews can be given work visas because the boats work outside UK territorial waters."

    Do you not see that the problem is a capitalist system that has driven down payrates for Scottish crews to such a point d inthat no one wants to do so?
    Isn't the problem a combination of:
    - we've opened up what used to be a tolerably well paid profession to almost anyone in the world via our immigration policies, thus driving down wages
    - by giving away large chunks of our fishing rights on joining the EU, as well as by (necessary) action to prevent overfishing, there are too many boats, and each boat is operating at a fraction of its true annual production potential - this means the crew are unproductive compared to their true potential, which ends up reflected in their wages.

    The idea of capitalism (although I suspect you actually mean a free market economy, which isn't necessarily the same thing at all) driving down wages to the point where no one will take the work is a logical absurdity. The effect of normal market behaviour is to drive down wages to the minimum required to get workers. The problem is that traditional Scottish crews are being underbid to a huge extent by Filipino crews. This is not a failure of capitalism, or free market economics.

    The obvious solution (assuming, as every poster above has, that we care more about those who want to be Scottish fishing crew than the Filipino crews, or the consumers of fish) is to restrict the Filipino crews from having visas - if the fishing boats can't obtain crew, pay rates will gradually rise.
    Or the boats will cease fishing as no longer economic, and the workers get employed ashore. Indeed hasn't that been the story of recent decades?

    Fishing has to compete with other jobs for wage rates, so perfectly possible to drive down wages to the point that no one wants to do it any more.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020
    If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not
  • Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
  • If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    I am sure we will see you on here GE2024 when you get 220 seats looking forward to it 👍
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 21,436
    edited December 2020

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
  • If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    The conservative party backs the NHS with more money than ever and will continue to do so

  • If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    I am sure we will see you on here GE2024 when you get 220 seats looking forward to it 👍
    It's human beings that are being talked about like they're nothing, the Tories claim to be in favour of them now, yet we've just seen them talking about them like they're nothing.

    If you win again on the back of attitudes like that then I feel really sorry for the state of this country. I really do.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 18,505

    If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    The conservative party backs the NHS with more money than ever and will continue to do so

    You'll be saying Boris invented it next.
  • There we have it then, it's all a game to win votes, not about the people at all. Same old Tories, same old attitudes.

    I'm off
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,092
    edited December 2020

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    No, that is simply not true. The mutual recognition of Medical and Nursing qualifications ends in less than a weeks time. It is in Boris's Deal. Who am I to argue?
    The end of mutual recognition doesnt mean we will end recognition it merely means we can if we wish too. If we decide spanish qualifications are fine we can say so
    Err, no, that is not how it works. The fact remains that as of next week we have ceased mutual recognition, and EU migrants qualifications are no longer automatically recognised. From now on they will have to pass the PLAB exam, in order to have a licence to practice, and Specialist qualifications are not recognised without passing the exam held here, and proving equivalent experience. This takes about 5 years. I know, because I have coached a number of Non EU doctors through the process.
  • If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    The conservative party backs the NHS with more money than ever and will continue to do so

    You'll be saying Boris invented it next.
    No not that far
  • There we have it then, it's all a game to win votes, not about the people at all. Same old Tories, same old attitudes.

    I'm off

    Good night
  • If this anti public sector, anti NHS attitude is what we can expect from the Tory Party then Labour will have no issues bringing back voters. The Tories don't give a crap about the NHS, only empty words to win some votes. Really thought we were past this, it seems not

    I am sure we will see you on here GE2024 when you get 220 seats looking forward to it 👍
    It's human beings that are being talked about like they're nothing, the Tories claim to be in favour of them now, yet we've just seen them talking about them like they're nothing.

    If you win again on the back of attitudes like that then I feel really sorry for the state of this country. I really do.
    It's LAB who want to take away people's opportunities, their chances to succeed and progress. LAB want everyone to be a client of the state, hand out central.

    There are still enough people left in this country who want to succeed on their own merit and give others the chance to succeed likewise.

    But you can stick with the 30% and enjoy your reward of 220 seats
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
    Since you ask it was the part where you said of @Foxy: "You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."

    I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.

    If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/this-is-going-to-hurt/adam-kay/9781509858637

    Do you deny all doctors are paid under the same contract?
    Do you deny all doctors have the same contract independent of where they were born?

    The answer to both is no.
    Therefore doctors have not been ever subject to pay competion
    Yes, NHS contracts are on standard scales, but overtime, locum rates and private practice are all subject to price competition. I have competed successfully at all of these.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,765
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    Which bit are you disputing @benpointer, spanish gp's get paid a lot less? Doctors here get paid the same regardless of origin country?
    Since you ask it was the part where you said of @Foxy: "You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."

    I'd hazard a guess that you know as little of @Foxy's actual circumstances, challenges, etc. as I do but you're happy to pass judgement.

    If you want to find out more about the 'featherbedded' life of a docotr working in the NHS This is Going to Hurt by Adam Kay is a good read.

    https://www.waterstones.com/book/this-is-going-to-hurt/adam-kay/9781509858637

    Do you deny all doctors are paid under the same contract?
    Do you deny all doctors have the same contract independent of where they were born?

    The answer to both is no.
    Therefore doctors have not been ever subject to pay competion
    What utter bollocks you post on here. No wonder you've failed to improve your pay over the past 18 years if this is the level of analysis you can manage.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dodrade said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
    Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.

    I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.

    There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.

    Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
    Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
    When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.

    Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.

    Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
    I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
    The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
    Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
    You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
    Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
    lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
    While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
    It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.

    Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.

    There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.

    The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.

    The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?

    They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.

    The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
    It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
    But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.

    There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films

    Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.

    What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.


    Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
    Starmer should do a walk of shame - for sitting in Corbyn's shadow cabinet as Labour (being generous) turned a blind eye to the anti-semites in their midst.

    Charles said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    dodrade said:

    kinabalu said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    IanB2 said:

    As above, the only question here is whether Brexiter MPs are prepared to re-engage in the real political world and embrace this deal as something to champion and take forward (as, to his credit, Farage has realised) - or whether they are going to underline the essential futility of their ideological purity and posture and pose by abstaining or opposing the government deal.

    Wise words from your posts this afternoon.

    My advice would be magnanimity and to go back to sober, sensible good Government.

    Make Conservatives the safe choice and Labour the risky/disruptive one in 2024 again.
    Let Labour point the way forward once again.
    I will be writing about what Labour needs to do to win again in the weeks to come.

    You won't like all of it.
    It is not in their control to win it. If Brexit is a success, the govt gets re-elected easily. If its average, the govt probably still get re-elected but it might be a hung parliament. If its a mess, it will likely be a hung parliament given Starmer will neither inspire nor give the govt Corbyns open goals.
    I wrote an article a few weeks about the Fall of the West. The importance of stable nations, that form its building blocks, was a key part of it.

    Jonathan's first reaction was to sneer at that. He then mentioned a few institutions he liked (as a man of the Left) like the NHS, BBC, and Unions - and I responded positively - but he ignored that, and followed up with nothing but a deafening silence.

    He's an ex-Labour parliamentary candidate. And that is the problem Labour has.

    They will forever be confined to university towns and metropolitan cities until they rediscover their patriotism.
    Top tip, never confuse a lack of reply for deliberate silence. Like many I dip in and out of here and no doubt miss much. I would be very happy to reply to any point, but sometimes the real world beckons.
    Ok, but your original post wasn't very friendly nor generous.

    I think it touched a nerve with you, which I find interesting of itself.

    There's lots in English, and British, reformist and radical history to be proud of for the Left, as well as in our literature and broader culture. Not to mention our absurdly beautiful country itself.

    Why not find it, love it, and champion it?
    Who says we don’t? I suspect you or others on the right really get the patriotism of the left. The right seem to believe they own patriotism and confuse it for nationalism.
    When a Conservative says Labour need to be more patriotic, I recommend responding with a simple request.

    Ok, so please suggest some left of centre patriotic policies that will bring the floating voters flocking.

    Silence indicates they are gaslighting.
    I *do not* say that Labour needs to be more patriotic - I think they should be how they want. But there are quite a few patriotic left of centre policies that will bring floating voters flocking that I can think of. These include: re-opening branch lines closed by the Beeching cuts. Public procurement policies helping British manufacturing. All in on Welsh tidal power. Quota of British-made films to be shown in cinemas (this was our national policy in the and contributed to the success of Carry On and the Hammer films) - an updated version would be what Justin Trudeau just introduced in Canada. There are tonnes actually. Just think of anything that France would do.
    The Film/TV industry is currently one of the country's biggest success stories. Given how many blockbusters are shot in Britain and are officially UK co-productions a quota system would be both futile and unnecessary.
    Compared to the French industry, the British story, as you say, is largely one of hosting facilities and co-production. France's quota system has had a vast impact on its film tradition, and through this on its cultural self-perception and self-confidence.
    You will, then, be happy to cite the many great and famous French movies of the last ten years, which have had international impact, fat outweighing any British films from the same era.
    Not really, because I'm talking about 60 years rather than 10 years, and France's films are as much important to itself, and its own identity and cohesion, as to any international soft power counted in money.
    lol. So that's a No then, AKA as "OK, I was talking complete shite"
    While sometimes having interesting things to say, you're prone to this sudden abuse on certain issues, but still yet to learn at a mature age that it doesn't make you right. It's not 'shite', simply because the French are not particularly bothered about the supposed interational soft power of foreign-financed co-productions, compared to what they regard as these films doing for their heritage and identity.
    It's not "abuse" to point out a basic fact. You were largely talking nonsense.

    Your argument is misframed anyway. In an era of globalisation and co-production the film industry is not divided by nation, not anymore. It is, more importantly, divided by language, which is a very different thing.

    There is a huge, successful English language sector of the film industry, there is a very large and successful Hindi speaking industry, there are Chinese speaking films (Mandarin and Cantonese), and so on.

    The French speaking movie industry is now relatively small, and obscure, tho it throws up the odd gem. The Italian-speaking industry is tiny and getting tinier, and so on.

    The Harry Potter movies (enormously successful, worldwide, and a big projection of "Anglo" soft power) are a fascinating example. Are they British? Or American? Global? Or what?

    They are theoretically set in "Britain", are adapted from a British writer, they are filmed in Britain (locations and studios), and use tons of British talent (from all the major actors to the cameramen and gaffers). Yet they often have American directors and producers, they are organised and financed by American studios, so maybe they are at least half American? And a huge chunk of their market is China.

    The argument is increasingly spurious. There is an English language speaking movie industry. It's capital is probably (still) LA, but London and NYC are easily as important as sources of talent, London also has studios that rival anywhere, and Canada is pretty salient, too
    It doesn't work like this, unfortunately, but I wish it did, Foreign financing and money sets the agenda. Four Weddings as a Funeral, for example, had to have a liberated American woman releasing a loveable but repressed Englishman, because that's what financing and target demanded. The many similar examples are well-known in the industry.
    But this cuts all ways. Check the blockbuster American movies which now, nearly always, have to foreground some positive Chinese character - as a hero, not a villain - so the American studios, who pay all the money to make these things, have a decent chance at grabbing a slice of the biggest movie market in the world: China.

    There is no longer any such thing as a "national film industry" telling solely national stories about their nation or culture, unless you drill down to tiny movies on small budgets which can, indeed tell parochial tales of interest solely to the French, or Polish, or Azeris, who made and finance them, but generally no one else watches these films

    Same goes for TV. What nationality is The Crown, one of the most successful TV series of recent years, worldwide? Is it British or American? I'd say it's culturally 95% British even if financially 80% American.

    What about Game of Thrones, the most successful TV series of all time? Filmed largely in Britain, based largely on British history, used mainly British actors, was shot in many British locations (and elsewhere, too). Theoretically it was American-made, but I'd say it was a pretty subtle but powerful projection of British soft cultural power.


    Does “game of thrones” represent the post Brexit Britain you desire?
    Starmer should do a walk of shame - for sitting in Corbyn's shadow cabinet as Labour (being generous) turned a blind eye to the anti-semites in their midst.
    Thatcher openly applauded Tory Party Conference speakers who were supporting Ian Smith's Rhodesia regime. What did that say about her racist and neofascist credentials - some 20 years before she sat down for tea with Pinochet?
  • There we have it then, it's all a game to win votes, not about the people at all. Same old Tories, same old attitudes.

    I'm off

    We'll be missing you 😊
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 222
    So now
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    No, that is simply not true. The mutual recognition of Medical and Nursing qualifications ends in less than a weeks time. It is in Boris's Deal. Who am I to argue?
    The end of mutual recognition doesnt mean we will end recognition it merely means we can if we wish too. If we decide spanish qualifications are fine we can say so
    Err, no, that is not how it works. The fact remains that as of next week we have ceased mutual recognition, and EU migrants qualifications are no longer automatically recognised. From now on they will have to pass the PLAB exam, in order to have a licence to practice, and Specialist qualifications are not recognised without passing the exam held here, and proving equivalent experience. This takes about 5 years. I know, because I have coached a number of Non EU doctors through the process.
    So no we've Brexited we are going to sort out the turgid medical profession with cheap, qualified, Spanish doctors. In a way that we didn't do, when we were in the single market.

    With, err... qualifications we no longer recognise.

    I for one look forward to the new, bucaneering era of global Britain with doctors with suspect qualifications, who may or may not speak english.

    Have I missed something here?
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Foxy said:

    We need to open the Nightingales now as we will be up to 30,000 in hospital early Jan😠
    No staff to do so...
    Even if they were I read something the other day about the equipment being taken out........
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 17,724
    IanB2 said:

    Seriously windy out there tonight

    I blame the sprouts.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 23,765
    edited December 2020

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to its chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
  • Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    To be honest I do reject that paragraph and apologies if I gave that impression
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,003

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    Well, it shows that there is support amongst Tory voters for the breaking up and privatisation of the NHS, and outsourcing to foreign workers. Who can now deny their agenda?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 47,047

    IanB2 said:

    Seriously windy out there tonight

    I blame the sprouts.

    The Gods have certainly over-indulged the last two days.....
  • This is important reading for the fishing debate

    https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1342966557199261702?s=19
  • Foxy said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    Well, it shows that there is support amongst Tory voters for the breaking up and privatisation of the NHS, and outsourcing to foreign workers. Who can now deny their agenda?
    For clarification I do not support and never have the privatisation of the NHS
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
  • Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
    And to be fair that is not right either
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682

    Foxy said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    Well, it shows that there is support amongst Tory voters for the breaking up and privatisation of the NHS, and outsourcing to foreign workers. Who can now deny their agenda?
    For clarification I do not support and never have the privatisation of the NHS
    Then why did you "like" a comment advocating that?
  • I hope we can talk about Brexit a bit more tomorrow. We really do need more informed insight on here from Remainers 😊
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 55,092
    edited December 2020
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    Well, it shows that there is support amongst Tory voters for the breaking up and privatisation of the NHS, and outsourcing to foreign workers. Who can now deny their agenda?
    For clarification I do not support and never have the privatisation of the NHS
    Then why did you "like" a comment advocating that?
    I have apologised for misreading the comment

    I always thought an apology was acceptable
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 24,470
    edited December 2020

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
    And to be fair that is not right either
    Was just the same during my supply teaching career.
    Twice the pay. 5% of the responsibility. No marking, no prep.
    Private sector not public while working in Comprehensives.
    Easy street.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
    And to be fair that is not right either
    It doesn't bother me.

    Indeed one of the reasons that I am in such demand is that I am a very sought after trainer, and several of my proteges have moved on to very senior posts across the land.

    Far from fearing competition, I have trained them!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,003
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
    And to be fair that is not right either
    It doesn't bother me.

    Indeed one of the reasons that I am in such demand is that I am a very sought after trainer, and several of my proteges have moved on to very senior posts across the land.

    Far from fearing competition, I have trained them!
    I've seen those Star Wars films. It doesn't end well for the master. :D
  • LeonLeon Posts: 28,974
    Jesus. Call the Midwife always makes me cry my fucking eyes out.

    Every time. Guaranteed. Dunno why.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,075
    Leon said:

    Jesus. Call the Midwife always makes me cry my fucking eyes out.

    Every time. Guaranteed. Dunno why.

    Never watched it. One for the future I suppose.
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 222

    I hope we can talk about Brexit a bit more tomorrow. We really do need more informed insight on here from Remainers 😊

    I understand this is a political message board, so you may be in luck...
  • guybrushguybrush Posts: 222
    guybrush said:

    I hope we can talk about Brexit a bit more tomorrow. We really do need more informed insight on here from Remainers 😊

    I understand this is a political message board, so you may be in luck...
    Oh look, here's some informed analysis to tide you over:

    https://twitter.com/Flakmagnet1/status/1342817805180297219
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 35,682
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Oh great some anti public sector bollocks this evening, what a prat you are Big G

    I assume you have never founded a business, provided security of work for your employees, good wages and conditions, loyalty and fought everyday against cut price competition and the cowboys

    You should try it sometime
    No it's your supporting the condescending bollocks posted about NHS staff and then you've followed it up with some anti public sector crap and so it's now clear you not only agree with the rubbish posted you actively endorse it.

    Wouldn't like to work for somebody so utterly narrow-minded, you're an embarrassment.
    In all my years running my business no employee left the business due to the way they were treated

    Your insulting behaviour is just plain silly
    Address the point rather than posting this off topic nonsense about your business.

    You endorsed an insulting comment about public sector workers, if you won't address it you're a coward and that's sad. It really is.
    Nothing insulting about seeking competition and value for money

    Anyway the saying goes you cannot put old heads on young shoulders
    Competition and value for money is fine Big_G (and something this government could do better at before handing out contracts to it's chums).

    But I can't believe you 'like' @Pagan2's comment that @Foxy (and presumably other doctors) "have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself."
    People like all sorts of strange comments, and to be fair Foxy himself has not shied away from saying that he is not doing too badly on that particular front.
    There is currently an agency locum on more than twice my pay in my dept at the moment. I could similarly double my income if I chose, but the work would be less interesting, so I have not gone down that path.
    And to be fair that is not right either
    It doesn't bother me.

    Indeed one of the reasons that I am in such demand is that I am a very sought after trainer, and several of my proteges have moved on to very senior posts across the land.

    Far from fearing competition, I have trained them!
    I've seen those Star Wars films. It doesn't end well for the master. :D
    In my business, my proteges are more likely to cure me than kill me. Though there are perhaps one or two gone over to the dark side...
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    Given Christmas, the data drop outs.... nah do it anyway...

    UK cases by specimen date

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    UK cases by specimen date and by 100k population

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    edited December 2020
    UK local R

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    UK case summary

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    UK hospitals

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    UK deaths

    image
    image
    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 30,288
    UK R

    From case data

    image
    image

    From hospitalisation data

    image
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,427
    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    Think this is actually my fight big g
    I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
    Until New Years Day, Doctors and Specialists from 27 countries could freely come here to work, indeed I have appointed many as my colleagues when head of department. As of next week they cannot. Brexit has therefore reduced competition in my field. Indeed wasn't that the purpose of Brexit?

    If you want me to compete, you should support rejoining the Single Market and restoring free movement.
    Yes they could come here but could we pay them less than you and i9 think the answer is no. Where as eastern euripeans could come her and do my job for half the price and kept wages down
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 20,075
    "Lockdown: a deadly, failed experiment
    It has been a global catastrophe. We must never go down this road again.

    Fraser Myers"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/27/lockdown-a-deadly-failed-experiment/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492
    Andy_JS said:

    "Lockdown: a deadly, failed experiment
    It has been a global catastrophe. We must never go down this road again.

    Fraser Myers"

    https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/12/27/lockdown-a-deadly-failed-experiment/

    That headline is so wildly over the top that it rather discourages one from clicking through... unless, of course, the plan is only to get those people who already agree with it, to read it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492
    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    Think this is actually my fight big g
    I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
    Until New Years Day, Doctors and Specialists from 27 countries could freely come here to work, indeed I have appointed many as my colleagues when head of department. As of next week they cannot. Brexit has therefore reduced competition in my field. Indeed wasn't that the purpose of Brexit?

    If you want me to compete, you should support rejoining the Single Market and restoring free movement.
    Yes they could come here but could we pay them less than you and i9 think the answer is no. Where as eastern euripeans could come her and do my job for half the price and kept wages down
    From a straight economics perspective, the number of people competing to fill a role must have an impact on the price at which the market clears.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 5,427
    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    Think this is actually my fight big g
    I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
    Until New Years Day, Doctors and Specialists from 27 countries could freely come here to work, indeed I have appointed many as my colleagues when head of department. As of next week they cannot. Brexit has therefore reduced competition in my field. Indeed wasn't that the purpose of Brexit?

    If you want me to compete, you should support rejoining the Single Market and restoring free movement.
    Yes they could come here but could we pay them less than you and i9 think the answer is no. Where as eastern euripeans could come her and do my job for half the price and kept wages down
    From a straight economics perspective, the number of people competing to fill a role must have an impact on the price at which the market clears.
    precisely my point however foxy is protected from it by the nhs contact brown put in place where a gp gets x for each patient. Nothing in the contract states if he is uk or not. We can bring foreign gp's in and they arent competing on price which was my point. He has never had to deal with people undercutting him therefore he can take his opinion and shove it up his arse
  • This is such a bald face gaslight it could be Trumpian. The SNP, who support EU membership and full rights for EU fishermen to Scottish waters FOREVER, are claiming the Tories sold out fishermen for agreeing a 5.5 year transition period.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 48,492

    New Post

  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,506
    Pagan2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Omnium said:

    HYUFD said:

    johnt said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    2021 will be the Battle of the Nits.

    We've already seen a heavy presence from them on here today; they're clearly all fired up (despite obviously being disappointed it wasn't No Deal) for next year, which will be the next major battle of British politics.

    Yes, Nippy is going to make hay with this

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgeon/status/1342840175093829634

    But for BoZo the biggest battles will be internal.

    The headbangers are not going to keep quiet, and he still has to explain to the red Wallers why he sold them out.

    Apart from that...
    How that woman has the gall to criticise the Tories on fishing when she and her party opposed reclaiming any Scottish fishing catch from the EU and the Tories have ensured catch will be reclaimed over the next 5 years is beyond me!

    The Red Wall meanwhile has got the end of free movement and its replacement by a points system and reclaimed sovereignty as it voted for
    The problem is that the Scottish will consider that they have given up plenty and not got what they were told they would get in return. To be fair that seems like a reasonable assessment.
    Some of the 1% of Scots who are fishermen might, the rest will be grateful they are reclaiming some catch.

    The 99% of Scots remaining who are not fishermen will be grateful for a Deal not No Deal Brexit
    1%? There are 50k fishermen in Scotland?
    Do you have any source for that?

    I'd have guessed 10k.

    In 2016 - 4,832 fishermen were employed on Scottish based vessels representing 0.2% of the workforce
    Sudden thought: did it say if they are actually Scottish? The bigger boats do employ third country folk (e.g. Filipinos) to a n [edit] surprising degree. Maybe not a lot, but still more than I'd expected.

    Edit: I'm not sure if they actually live ashore at all. Or what their tax situation is.
    Yeah, the truth is that British folk don't want to work the boats or gut fish in Grimsby. I don't blame them.
    Total bollock foxy, coming from a small fishing port as I do and having worked trawlers I can tell you for sure that plenty of us were happy to work boats and gut fish....however when half of our quota was redistributed to other countries in the 70's it overtime became harder and harder to make a living.

    When I finally quit trawlers in 85 we were down to only being able to fish 6 weeks of the year. The skipper could no longer make any money because a boat costs maintenance money whether it goes to sea or not.

    He had two choices go slowly bankrupt or lay off the crew and sell his quota. People always make it sound like fisherman were queuing up to sell their quota's gleefully. I am sure some of the large concerns that ran a fleet might have been but not the independents
    Foxy was referring to 2020 not nineteencanteen I think.
    Fishing is a tradition as much as anything and tends to run in families. When you break the link as independents give up due to decreasing catches then you break the link. About half the kids I grew up expected to spend their lives in the fishing industry. These days my home town which was a thriving fishing community is a marina for middle class yachties.

    Also fishing pays less than it did because fleets hire cheap deck hands from third countries as he noted. When I went to sea a deck hand would get paid a percentage from the catch.....now I suspect those philipinno deck hands probably get less than minimum wage
    What you are complaining about is the pauperisation and exploitation of the British working class into casual jobs. Like Brexit is going to help with that! 🙄

    When captains cannot crew their boats with Britons at the going rate, is that the fault of the EU27, or a fault of a capitalist system increasingly weighted against the workers? And how will Brexit help with that?

    https://fishingnews.co.uk/news/crewing-problems-worsen-visa-clampdown-on-foreign-crews-hits-west-coast/
    If you make it harder for boats to pay their way by cutting their catches then it makes it more imperative to pay less to crews....who was responsible for cutting the profits of boats....oh that would be joining the europeans and having to hand over half our fishing wouldn't it. UK boats were mostly crewed by uk people till your beloved europe made it so you could either make a living and employ cheap labour. The eu has done more to collapse the wages of the working class than any other force.
    If you think Brexit and the Tories are going to fix it, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Have I ever claimed that. However you are in a protected profession a doctor comes here, they get paid the same they cant undercut you. Most people in the private sector don't have that luxury. Most people in the private sector have to compete with people who will come over and do so for less wages. The salary for what I do for example hasn't risen since 2002 when I look at job boards and mine is a job we keep getting told we have a shortage of. In 2002 I could apply for a job paying about 40k, 18 years later its still paying 40k.

    I suspect if the nhs could recruit a doctor and pay proportionate to what they ask for and you had to compete with spanish doctors willing to do the job for less you would soon be whinging
    Oh, I expect to do well out of Brexit. After all, reducing competition from foreign workers for honest British yeomen like me is the purpose is it not?

    Reducing overseas doctor recruitment should increase my income quite substantially.

    The points system will probably favour foreign doctors now we just need to sever your stranglehold so foreign doctors can under cut you so you can enjoy what you advocate for the plebs
    Nah. I am very good at my job. I have no fear of competition.
    I have no doubt spanish doctors do just as well and currently earn less than half of what you do. I am sure if we kick out the stupid rules brown put in place and just pay a salary people will find they get as good service at half the price.
    Not true, and more to the point, as of Jan 1 their professional qualifications are no longer recognised here.


    What total bollocks if we accepted spanish medical qualifications before and we want spanish doctors we will still recognise them. The statement is we can not that we will. You have been featherbedded all your life and protected from competition time we turfed you out into the real world and made you fend for yourself.
    Surprised and disappointed you 'liked' that pathetic attack @Big_G_NorthWales
    I have always supported competition but then I was a businessman having to succeed in a highly competitive field and did not have HMG guaranteeing my salary and gold plated pension

    I ensured excellent staff moral, good pay and benefits and many of them stayed with me for over 20 years
    Think this is actually my fight big g
    I alleged foxy had never be a victim of wage supression due to competition
    Until New Years Day, Doctors and Specialists from 27 countries could freely come here to work, indeed I have appointed many as my colleagues when head of department. As of next week they cannot. Brexit has therefore reduced competition in my field. Indeed wasn't that the purpose of Brexit?

    If you want me to compete, you should support rejoining the Single Market and restoring free movement.
    Yes they could come here but could we pay them less than you and i9 think the answer is no. Where as eastern euripeans could come her and do my job for half the price and kept wages down
    From a straight economics perspective, the number of people competing to fill a role must have an impact on the price at which the market clears.
    precisely my point however foxy is protected from it by the nhs contact brown put in place where a gp gets x for each patient. Nothing in the contract states if he is uk or not. We can bring foreign gp's in and they arent competing on price which was my point. He has never had to deal with people undercutting him therefore he can take his opinion and shove it up his arse
    Foxy is not a GP.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,646
    guybrush said:

    guybrush said:

    I hope we can talk about Brexit a bit more tomorrow. We really do need more informed insight on here from Remainers 😊

    I understand this is a political message board, so you may be in luck...
    Oh look, here's some informed analysis to tide you over:

    https://twitter.com/Flakmagnet1/status/1342817805180297219
    LOL what total crap
This discussion has been closed.