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Punters losing confidence that there’ll be a deal before the end of the year – politicalbetting.com

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  • Just suggesting them as benchmarks, Philip. I recall the exchange rate dropped sharply after the referendum and the drop in credit-rating followed soon after.

    I'm not saying these are definitive or that other circustances need not be considered, but they're not bad broad-brush indicators. I mean, if Brexit was such a great idea, why didn't they both move up?
    Because moving up isn't necessarily a good thing was my point.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    This was the substance of my letter to the Gambling Commission which I published on here.

    You don't think they are copying me, do you?
    The premise of the argument is stupid.

    I had a bet on him staying in power and I’m not a trumpeter. The bet was not support for trump, but a punt he could pull it off.

    He might yet still remain president I think, so it’s still worth betting on, has a secret pact with the extra terrestrials that are here as reported in a paper. Remember how that played out in the Transformers movie.
  • I'd really like to check whether Rentoul has been cribbing from PB, Alistair Meekes and/or myself, but the full article is behind a paywall. Would it be possible for someone to send me a copy?

    arklebar@gmail.com

    Thanks
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,553
    eek said:

    Cummings behaviour means that it is fair game for everyone else.
    Cummings was in a private environment in his own car.

    He was not breathing over and risking infecting several dozen other people in his selfishness.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    HYUFD said:

    So you want the Tories to scrap Holyrood and reimpose direct rule from Westminster then? I am sure Boris could arrange for that next year if you really want
    No, you are as usual completely wrong, and no doubt deliberately. It's not about your fixation on Mr Johnson banning democracy. It's that I want the Tories to explain something.

    They are Unionists. Yet they think More Polis in Scotland Is Good. I do too. But More Police in England is Bad. I disagree. What's a person to think?

  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    Well yes everything Redwood says in that Tweet is reasonable, unless the EU move further as I hope they do.

    The difference is Redwood doesn't want the EU to move I think. He wants No Deal I suspect, I'm just willing to accept it as possibly necessary.
    It’s a tweet for the history books. The true history is in that tweet, the Tory party over run with UK Independence Party thinking in order to get the country to take this dramatic change.
  • Carnyx said:

    I wouldn't like to say. No, only joking - they made the SNP recruit more polis as a condition of passing the budget a few years back.

    But increasing police per head in Scotland and decreasing it in England is odd for a Unionist party when it makes them diverge quite a bit, even allowing for slightly different counting. I polis per 316 Scots vs a much lower English figure (around 200 a couple of years back?)
    I believe that the number for Nottinghamshire overall is 1 sworn officer per 480 people. That includes PCSOs.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    MattW said:

    On the last one, fishery was declared a common resource for EU countries in 1970 just before the four countries (UK, RI, Denmark and Norway) with significant fishing resources in handed in their applications to join. I term that a simple mugging.

    "The first rules were created in 1970. The original six Common Market members realised that four countries applying to join the Common Market at that time (Britain, Ireland, Denmark including Greenland, and Norway) would control the richest fishing grounds in the world. The original six therefore drew up Council Regulation 2141/70 giving all Members equal access to all fishing waters, even though the Treaty of Rome did not explicitly include fisheries in its agriculture chapter. This was adopted on the morning of 30 June 1970, a few hours before the applications to join were officially received.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy

    Norway chose to walk away at that point.
    Greenland walked away when they gained more autonomy from Denmark.
    Iceland later withdrew its later application to join over EU access to all their fishing waters.

    It's certainly visceral.

    Personally I don't see that the EU fisheries policy can regulate its way out of a wet paper bag - the throwing back dead fish that did not fit the quota has been known for decades and not addressed, or compare the relative success of Marine Conservations Zones between northern waters and the Mediterranean.


    Yes totally agree. Although great for winning elections, Boris excessively Nationalistic platform about as considered as “kill all sparrows” was.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    It's quite a contrast with the Hunger Games people on benefits have to go through.
    There's a colourful German proverb for that: "Der Teufel scheißt immer auf den größten Haufen."
  • gealbhan said:

    It’s a tweet for the history books. The true history is in that tweet, the Tory party over run with UK Independence Party thinking in order to get the country to take this dramatic change.
    I may have only been a child/teenager in the 1990s but my memory is that Redwood was an arch Eurosceptic then long before UKIP was formed or became famous.

    Do you know differently?
  • Since the government was seemingly willing to allow C-19 to remain in the English population at a much higher level than many other parts of the world, so long as the NHS was not overwhelmed, was it not therefore more likely that more mutations would likely be occurring here in England that other places which tried to keep the infection rates far lower?

    Since the premise of your comment is completely wrong then the subsequent question is pointless.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,655
    edited December 2020
    Gaussian said:

    Cubic root, or third root, just because it's three weeks. 1.57*1.57*1.57 = 3.87.
    Got you, time :smile: I was trying to make it fit the other dimension, as I took it as a model proportional to the third power, like power required proportional to cube of speed in a ship.

    And I see I failed to read your final para, which explained it. Doh.
  • Because moving up isn't necessarily a good thing was my point.
    Yes, I can see there are circumstances where it might be smart to let an exchange rate drift down. I'm less sure about the credit rating, but you can correct me if you like.

    I didn't however get the impression that either movement was an indication of clever economic forethought, but rather a sharp intake of breath from the international business community.
  • Since the premise of your comment is completely wrong then the subsequent question is pointless.
    We have had fewer restrictions, government policy, than many other countries and have amongst the highest death rates as a consequence does not equate to government policy leading to higher infection rates?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    We have had fewer restrictions, government policy, than many other countries and have amongst the highest death rates as a consequence does not equate to government policy leading to higher infection rates?
    But, it is a difficult argument to make.

    In general, mutations are good, as the virus mutates to a less deadly version (it is not in the virus' interests to kill the host).

    There are have already been 20,000 mutations recorded.

    So, you could argue that allowing plenty of opportunity to mutate is a good thing.

    It is always easier to break something to fix it -- and that goes for viruses too. The more it is allowed to mutate, probably the better.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852
    MattW said:

    On the last one, fishery was declared a common resource for EU countries in 1970 just before the four countries (UK, RI, Denmark and Norway) with significant fishing resources in handed in their applications to join. I term that a simple mugging.

    "The first rules were created in 1970. The original six Common Market members realised that four countries applying to join the Common Market at that time (Britain, Ireland, Denmark including Greenland, and Norway) would control the richest fishing grounds in the world. The original six therefore drew up Council Regulation 2141/70 giving all Members equal access to all fishing waters, even though the Treaty of Rome did not explicitly include fisheries in its agriculture chapter. This was adopted on the morning of 30 June 1970, a few hours before the applications to join were officially received.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy

    Norway chose to walk away at that point.
    Norway didn't walk away at that point. The only reason they didn't join is that the referendum went narrowly against it in 1972.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,655

    Dunno. Seems a ton of Londoners reacted to the new strain last night.

    By rushing to the railway stations heading North.
    Samuel Pepys lives. Presumably the window-boxes of London are filled with Parmesan Cheese,
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Grow a skin you touchy twat.
    Touche.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    Dunno. Seems a ton of Londoners reacted to the new strain last night.

    By rushing to the railway stations heading North.
    A car with an LB Hounslow residents parking permit has appeared in the road outside. Not all of them headed north.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    DougSeal said:



    Good of you to admit how disastrously out of step with public opinion the PM was before he was reluctatnly forced into this decision yesterday. I hope you're not a spin doctor because you're not very good at it.
    No need to be quite so salty about it. I know that to the lawyerly mind being forced to contradict oneself or retract one's position equals game over, but in politics as long as you dust yourself off and carry on regardless, you tend to get away with it - especially when the policy you end up with is an overwhelmingly popular one. People tend to care about the destination, not the road taken to get there. Once again, despite the desperate wishes of his detractors, Boris lives to fight another day...
  • We have had fewer restrictions, government policy, than many other countries and have amongst the highest death rates as a consequence does not equate to government policy leading to higher infection rates?
    No we didn't. Not since March.

    Case numbers are far higher in recent months in France, Spain and other countries than the UK.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    'Worst Government' is a high bar, and you certainly have to make allowances for those that cocked up in favorable circumstances as well as those that managed difficult circumstances pretty well.

    Boris's bunch must be contenders but it's a crowded field and they have time to surprise us yet.
    You think that things can get worse still?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    You would not normally judge a government in the heat of a crisis, it could go either way
    Says the man who spent months telling PB that Boris was s**t, before suddenly deciding to vote for him.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    This was the substance of my letter to the Gambling Commission which I published on here.

    You don't think they are copying me, do you?
    Rentoul is surely a lurker.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Cummings was in a private environment in his own car.

    He was not breathing over and risking infecting several dozen other people in his selfishness.
    The poor man’s sins are glaring;
    In the face of ghostly warning
    He is caught in the fact
    Of an overt act—
    Buying greens on a Sunday morning.

    The rich man’s sins are hidden
    In the pomp of wealth and station;
    And escape the sight
    Of the children of light,
    Who are wise in their generation.

    The rich man has a kitchen,
    And cooks to dress his dinner;
    The poor who would roast
    To the baker’s must post,
    And thus becomes a sinner.

    The rich man has a cellar,
    And a ready butler by him;
    The poor man must steer
    For his pint of beer
    Where the saint can’t choose but to spy him.

    The rich man’s painted windows
    Hide the concerts of the quality;
    The poor can but share
    A crack’d fiddle in the air,
    Which offends all sound morality.

    The rich man is invisible
    In the crowd of his gay society;
    But the poor man’s delight
    Is a sore in the sight,
    And a stench in the nose of piety.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    Cummings was in a private environment in his own car.

    He was not breathing over and risking infecting several dozen other people in his selfishness.
    So the people fleeing London in their car last night are okay?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,022

    I've found it's far better to work on headphones.Doing so effectively mutes extraneous noise.
    I bought a really nice pair of noise-cancelling headphones in January, expecting to spend a lot of time on planes this year. That obviously didn’t happen, but the headphones have been brilliant for conference calls.
  • Yes, I can see there are circumstances where it might be smart to let an exchange rate drift down. I'm less sure about the credit rating, but you can correct me if you like.

    I didn't however get the impression that either movement was an indication of clever economic forethought, but rather a sharp intake of breath from the international business community.
    Well indeed in the short term there'll be more disruption, I don't think anyone reasonable disputes this.

    In the medium to long term though it's a different matter.

    One remarkable statistic is that despite all the protestations of doom about if the UK chose not to join the Euro, or chose to hold an EU referendum, or voted to Leave . . . Is that in both the 2000-2009 and 2010-2019 decades the UK grew faster than the Eurozone per capita.

    An interest judgement as to how Brexit goes over the next decade will be to make the same comparison in a decades time. It wouldn't surprise me if the UK over the next decade grows faster again per capita than the Eurozone. If so then I think that it is safe to say the UK has done OK in Brexiting, what do you think?
  • IanB2 said:

    Rentoul is surely a lurker.
    But does he look at PB?
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    We can and will lend a hand to everyone but in case of emergency always put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others.
    It seems only Merkel has made a point about helping third world with vaccine, not our government. Our government instead slashed foreign aid as point of Global Britain’s new priorities. It chucked obscene amounts of money to get hands on vaccine first.

    And we know why don’t we Phillip. Merkels Party, though right of centre, has the world Christian in its name. Meanwhile in UK there is no party influenced by Christian values.

    Sounds like a good holiday season header imo, to ask what it means for future policy now no UK party is influenced by Christian values.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,964
    IanB2 said:

    You think that things can get worse still?
    I do, most certainly. But then, I´m an optimist. Things are not yet as bad as they can get....
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    But does he look at PB?
    Doesn’t matter, how premise of the pro punter argument is stupid.

    Sorry to be provocative. This argument doesn’t understand how betting works I’m afraid to say.

    If I think Trumps deal with the decepticons decides who is sworn as president, I should be allowed to bet on that.

    I know what you will respond with: “But the decipticons don’t exist!”

    Oh but they do exist, as a metaphor in a when should a market be declared as certain result, closed and paid out discussion. The system of US politics of “called” by media, concession speeches, unfaithful electors, courts making decisions on who won and lost etc is at root of blame on betting companies, and so that blame on betting firms has to be seen as wrong to some degree.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DougSeal said:

    So the people fleeing London in their car last night are okay?
    They are people who wanted to enjoy Xmas with their family, by and large.

    No worse & no better than the skiers who must have their holiday ... or those who had to go to Spain for their Summer holiday.

    Now about that skiing holiday of yours ... or I remember, it doesn't count.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    Scott_xP said:
    Walker is wrong. This bounce has been clever politics by his government. For example, deliberately waiting till Parliament closed bounced both Walker and Starmer simultaneously.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,132
    Early test of the Northern Ireland border...

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1340657979511717891
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108
    edited December 2020
    Rawnsley:

    The coronavirus crisis could not have been more cunningly engineered to expose Mr Johnson’s flaws. He was made prime minister not because anyone thought that he was a cool and decisive head with the leadership skills and moral seriousness required to handle the gravest public health emergency in a century.

    Few of his strengths as a politician have been of much utility in this emergency. All of his weaknesses have been searingly exposed. A man who spent his career ducking responsibility was suddenly confronted with a challenge that could not be run from, though that didn’t stop him vanishing at the outset when he went missing from critical meetings.

    The wrong criticism is to say that he has made mistakes. Confronted with a novel disease for which the country was unprepared, any prime minister would have made errors. The correct criticism is that he has failed to learn from his mistakes and egregiously repeated them.

    Even Tories concede that their government’s record is at the bottom end of the international league table. Britain has suffered the double-whammy of having one of the highest death levels per million of population while enduring the most severe hit to the economy among the G7 club of prosperous states.

    In the summer, Mr Johnson foolishly tied himself to a guarantee that Britain would enjoy a “significant return to normality” by Christmas, a promise that his scientific advisers conspicuously declined to endorse at the time and which was dramatically proved completely false last night. That misjudgment, like all the other ones, flows from his personality. Just below the surface of his performative face lurks an insecure character who trusts no one and yearns to be loved by everyone. He hates being the bearer of bad news and tough choices. One of the many women in his life, Petronella Wyatt, once excused his mendacity on the grounds that “he will do anything to avoid an argument, which leads to a degree of duplicity”.

    “In the new year,” says one senior Tory, “we will need bouncy old Boris back to cheer us up that there is light at the end of the tunnel.”

    The light will have to be exceedingly bright to wipe away all the memories of how long and dark, stumbling and flailing has been the nation’s journey through the tunnel.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 26,655

    Norway didn't walk away at that point. The only reason they didn't join is that the referendum went narrowly against it in 1972.
    Fair comment. There's also stuff about Norway's application technically being "frozen" not "withdrawn", but life's too short for all of it.
  • gealbhan said:

    It seems only Merkel has made a point about helping third world with vaccine, not our government. Our government instead slashed foreign aid as point of Global Britain’s new priorities. It chucked obscene amounts of money to get hands on vaccine first.

    And we know why don’t we Phillip. Merkels Party, though right of centre, has the world Christian in its name. Meanwhile in UK there is no party influenced by Christian values.

    Sounds like a good holiday season header imo, to ask what it means for future policy now no UK party is influenced by Christian values.
    Cut the religious claptrap. Keep your religion in your Church thank you very much.

    As for vaccines our government has indeed made making vaccinations for the third world a priority. Including investing heavily in supporting the Oxford vaccine that will be able to more easily be distributed in the third world supply chains - and can be distributed at cost to the third world.

    As for third world aid our government is giving more as a percentage of GDP than almost any other nation. Including giving more than the EU and it's nations.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IanB2 said:

    Rawnsley:

    The coronavirus crisis could not have been more cunningly engineered to expose Mr Johnson’s flaws. He was made prime minister not because anyone thought that he was a cool and decisive head with the leadership skills and moral seriousness required to handle the gravest public health emergency in a century.

    Few of his strengths as a politician have been of much utility in this emergency. All of his weaknesses have been searingly exposed. A man who spent his career ducking responsibility was suddenly confronted with a challenge that could not be run from, though that didn’t stop him vanishing at the outset when he went missing from critical meetings.

    The wrong criticism is to say that he has made mistakes. Confronted with a novel disease for which the country was unprepared, any prime minister would have made errors. The correct criticism is that he has failed to learn from his mistakes and egregiously repeated them.

    Even Tories concede that their government’s record is at the bottom end of the international league table. Britain has suffered the double-whammy of having one of the highest death levels per million of population while enduring the most severe hit to the economy among the G7 club of prosperous states.

    In the summer, Mr Johnson foolishly tied himself to a guarantee that Britain would enjoy a “significant return to normality” by Christmas, a promise that his scientific advisers conspicuously declined to endorse at the time and which was dramatically proved completely false last night. That misjudgment, like all the other ones, flows from his personality. Just below the surface of his performative face lurks an insecure character who trusts no one and yearns to be loved by everyone. He hates being the bearer of bad news and tough choices. One of the many women in his life, Petronella Wyatt, once excused his mendacity on the grounds that “he will do anything to avoid an argument, which leads to a degree of duplicity”.

    “In the new year,” says one senior Tory, “we will need bouncy old Boris back to cheer us up that there is light at the end of the tunnel.” The light will have to be exceedingly bright to wipe away all the memories of how long and dark, stumbling and flailing has been the nation’s journey through the tunnel.

    I was waiting for you to post the Sunday Rawnsley 😁
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    They are people who wanted to enjoy Xmas with their family, by and large.

    No worse & no better than the skiers who must have their holiday ... or those who had to go to Spain for their Summer holiday.

    Now about that skiing holiday of yours ... or I remember, it doesn't count.
    As I said before I left the UK on 31 January 2020, the day first case of Covid was reported here. I didn't hear about it until I got to my destination, and I returned from Switzerland before a single case was reported there. The differences between that and the current situation are clear. If I had been a spreader (I wasn't) it would have been from a position of complete ignorance.
  • Majority think Gov have handled Christmas badly. Of course it’s just a bubble issue because Tories say so
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548

    Not disagreeing with the idiocy of Williamson.

    But I wonder if Greenwich council went with the proper procedures and negotiations before making the announcement.
    It was an advisory letter, which in law was their decision to issue. I'm not quite sure what 'processes' you think need to be gone through before a council advises its schools.

    The point being, schools have the ability to set their own holiday period as long as children are able to attend for 190 days a year. But if that 190 day period isn't met, it is the responsibility of the local authority to take enforcement action.

    Effectively, what Greenwich did was say that they wouldn't take such action and would advise early closure.

    Williamson and Gibb didn't understand this nuance but that's because they're thick as pigshit.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548

    Cummings was in a private environment in his own car.

    He was not breathing over and risking infecting several dozen other people in his selfishness.
    Apart from when he stopped for petrol, toilet breaks, etc...
  • Scott_xP said:
    So the Vice-Chair of the 1922 thinks that his leader chose to attack the Leader of the Opposition for wanting to do what he had already decided to do?

    That's inhuman...
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    But, it is a difficult argument to make.

    In general, mutations are good, as the virus mutates to a less deadly version (it is not in the virus' interests to kill the host).

    There are have already been 20,000 mutations recorded.

    So, you could argue that allowing plenty of opportunity to mutate is a good thing.

    It is always easier to break something to fix it -- and that goes for viruses too. The more it is allowed to mutate, probably the better.
    Not true. Viruses mutate randomly, and there is no reason to think less lethal mutations are more frequent.
    It's about which mutations get selected for. Killing vs not killing the host is not selective when you have a virtually infinite supply of infectable new hosts. So your claim applies to snow leopard viruses but not really to human ones.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Charles Walker has been an anti restrictions extremist for months losing his mind in the Commons.

    I don't think anyone would expect him to be anything else now. There's a good reason he's a backbencher.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548
    IanB2 said:

    You think that things can get worse still?
    Unfortunately yes. Much worse.
  • Scott_xP said:
    Its already in those and other countries and likely originated in one of them as well.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    ydoethur said:

    Apart from when he stopped for petrol, toilet breaks, etc...
    And went for eye tests in B. Castle, etc.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    eek said:

    Only after the Scottish Government cut numbers due to lack of funding.
    Fair enough at the time, but the divergence is now massive - much more than any procedural difference can explain, surely - and every time the Scottish figure creeps down the ScoTories set up a howl.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108
    Sandpit said:

    I bought a really nice pair of noise-cancelling headphones in January, expecting to spend a lot of time on planes this year. That obviously didn’t happen, but the headphones have been brilliant for conference calls.
    It would be cheaper just to turn the volume off.
  • ydoethur said:

    It was an advisory letter, which in law was their decision to issue. I'm not quite sure what 'processes' you think need to be gone through before a council advises its schools.

    The point being, schools have the ability to set their own holiday period as long as children are able to attend for 190 days a year. But if that 190 day period isn't met, it is the responsibility of the local authority to take enforcement action.

    Effectively, what Greenwich did was say that they wouldn't take such action and would advise early closure.

    Williamson and Gibb didn't understand this nuance but that's because they're thick as pigshit.
    I would have thought that if a council decided to shut its schools it would have the obligation / courtesy / good sense to notify the DfE.

    Now maybe they don't have to and maybe they did in any case.

    Willamson's response was petulant but than could have been expected so its wise not to give such a person an excuse for their behaviour.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,526
    edited December 2020
    Another interesting story along the way to how we got the current vaccines.....

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/the-hungarian-immigrant-behind-messenger-rna-key-to-covid-19-vaccines/
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    DougSeal said:

    As I said before I left the UK on 31 January 2020, the day first case of Covid was reported here. I didn't hear about it until I got to my destination, and I returned from Switzerland before a single case was reported there. The differences between that and the current situation are clear. If I had been a spreader (I wasn't) it would have been from a position of complete ignorance.
    There was clear and present danger by late January.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068164/

    "On 27 January 2020, the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the WHO Regional Office for Europe asked countries to complete a WHO standard COVID-19 case report form for all confirmed and probable cases according to WHO criteria ...."

    "The first three cases detected were reported in France on 24 January 2020 and had onset of symptoms on 17, 19 and 23 January respectively [10]. The first death was reported on 15 February in France...."

    True, there were no deaths in Europe by 31 January, but there were already reported COVID cases in Europe and there was the example of Wuhan to tell us what would happen.

    I won't repeat Thomas Love Peacock, but it applies.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,482
    Afternoon all :)

    Back in London, Mrs Stodge and I emerged from our residence, fought off the usual pack of plague-ridden zombies, stepped over the bloated corpses of our neighbours and went off to do the Christmas shopping.

    Canary Wharf - no issues with parking, 15 minute queue to enter the shop but round, out and back home in less than two hours. Mask observance at Canary Wharf very good, many also wearing gloves. A few people out and about enjoying a glorious afternoon to take a walk.

    Couldn't help but notice a few empty units at Jubilee Place but not many.

    Some people clearly have plenty of money still to spend and I suspect once the vaccine gets more widely distributed and life moves to the new normal (not the pre-Covid normal and not what we have now but something else), I suspect there will be a big spending splurge.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    IshmaelZ said:

    Not true. Viruses mutate randomly, and there is no reason to think less lethal mutations are more frequent.
    It's about which mutations get selected for. Killing vs not killing the host is not selective when you have a virtually infinite supply of infectable new hosts. So your claim applies to snow leopard viruses but not really to human ones.
    Ok, here is the Nature article

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02544-6

    Don't bother apologising for your ignorance.
  • ydoethur said:
    So are you seriously saying that NERVTAG, Sage scientists, the SNP's Sturgeon, Labour's Drakeford and many more are all engaged in a conspiracy to hide when this new information came to light?

    All so that Boris could attack Drakeford's colleague?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    I was waiting for you to post the Sunday Rawnsley 😁
    I had to go out with the dog, so he could earn his Level Two Agility qualification (at our fourth attempt), otherwise it would have been more punctual. Sorry.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,548

    I would have thought that if a council decided to shut its schools it would have the obligation / courtesy / good sense to notify the DfE.

    Now maybe they don't have to and maybe they did in any case.

    Willamson's response was petulant but than could have been expected so its wise not to give such a person an excuse for their behaviour.
    They do not have such an obligation, no. It is purely a local authority matter. The DfE has very little direct control over local schooling, although it has more since academy chains were brought in.

    It has been suggested that therefore Williamson and Gibb's was therefore ultra vires, particularly since the legislation they quoted was designed primarily to enable the closure of schools if necessary. If that is so, and somebody who contracted Covid at school in the last week decides to sue, they are in massive trouble.
  • Scott_xP said:
    So Gordon Brown is now meant to be the example of being prepared for a crisis ?

    Infinite LOLs.
  • IanB2 said:

    I had to go out with the dog, so he could earn his Level Two Agility qualification (at our fourth attempt), otherwise it would have been more punctual. Sorry.
    A border collie, Ian, by any chance?
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Not true. Viruses mutate randomly, and there is no reason to think less lethal mutations are more frequent.
    It's about which mutations get selected for. Killing vs not killing the host is not selective when you have a virtually infinite supply of infectable new hosts. So your claim applies to snow leopard viruses but not really to human ones.
    Actually it is kind of true because humanity reacts to try to prevent the spread of more lethal viruses while allowing less lethal ones (like the common cold) to spread.
  • I thought today is the day when there had to be announcement of any EU deal (or the MEPs would have a stomp)?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,823

    Just suggesting them as benchmarks, Philip. I recall the exchange rate dropped sharply after the referendum and the drop in credit-rating followed soon after.

    I'm not saying these are definitive or that other circustances need not be considered, but they're not bad broad-brush indicators. I mean, if Brexit was such a great idea, why didn't they both move up?
    The drop in credit rating was political. The actual yields have barely moved.
  • So are you seriously saying that NERVTAG, Sage scientists, the SNP's Sturgeon, Labour's Drakeford and many more are all engaged in a conspiracy to hide when this new information came to light?

    All so that Boris could attack Drakeford's colleague?
    Its a theory.....like Piers Corbyn has a theory or two....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    So Gordon Brown is now meant to be the example of being prepared for a crisis ?

    Infinite LOLs.
    Responding to the crisis when it arrived was actually one of the things he did very well. Seeing it coming, not so much.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,532
    IshmaelZ said:

    Not true. Viruses mutate randomly, and there is no reason to think less lethal mutations are more frequent.
    It's about which mutations get selected for. Killing vs not killing the host is not selective when you have a virtually infinite supply of infectable new hosts. So your claim applies to snow leopard viruses but not really to human ones.
    Agree. The virus has no ability to mutate as more or less deadly. It is entirely random. It is simply a case of how easy it is to survive and multiply. A virus that kills instantly upon infection will not be successful as it won't get a chance to spread, but if a virus was easily transmittable and took time to make the host ill so that it could spread easily and yet be 100% fatal it would be a viable mutation.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746

    There was clear and present danger by late January.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068164/

    "On 27 January 2020, the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (ECDC) and the WHO Regional Office for Europe asked countries to complete a WHO standard COVID-19 case report form for all confirmed and probable cases according to WHO criteria ...."

    "The first three cases detected were reported in France on 24 January 2020 and had onset of symptoms on 17, 19 and 23 January respectively [10]. The first death was reported on 15 February in France...."

    True, there were no deaths in Europe by 31 January, but there were already reported COVID cases in Europe and there was the example of Wuhan to tell us what would happen.

    I won't repeat Thomas Love Peacock, but it applies.
    "I almost think it is the ultimate destiny of science to exterminate the human race."? A bit harsh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,108

    A border collie, Ian, by any chance?
    No, he’s a hungarian pumi. He put his smug picture wearing his new rosette up on Instagram at @pumiunderthetable if you are interested.
  • So super strength mutant covid is already seeded all across Wales...have to think it is widely spread across UK then?

    BBC News - Covid: New coronavirus variant 'in every part of Wales'
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-55384502
  • ydoethur said:

    Apart from when he stopped for petrol, toilet breaks, etc...
    ydoethur said:

    Apart from when he stopped for petrol, toilet breaks, etc...
    Not to mention the business in the hospital with the kid, but frankly I think the whole story was a load of baloney from start to finish.
  • There will be no post-Brexit trade deal between the UK and EU unless there is a "substantial shift" from Brussels in the coming days, a government source has told the BBC.

    BBC News - Brexit: No trade deal unless 'substantial shift' from EU, UK says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55381322
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Ok, here is the Nature article

    https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02544-6

    Don't bother apologising for your ignorance.
    But that article makes precisely and exactly the point I was making!

    'At a time when nearly everyone on the planet is susceptible, there is likely to be little evolutionary pressure on the virus to spread better, so even potentially beneficial mutations might not flourish. “As far as the virus is concerned, every single person that it comes to is a good piece of meat,” says William Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T. H. Chan School of Public Health in Boston, Massachusetts. “There’s no selection to be doing it any better.”'

    Are you the bloke who thinks Boadicea was Welsh?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 38,132
    IanB2 said:

    Responding to the crisis when it arrived was actually one of the things he did very well. Seeing it coming, not so much.

    That's the point.

    He didn't spend every single day for 9 months amazed that the crisis was still a crisis and he still needed to act...

    https://twitter.com/DaveHartwell1/status/1340650068895031300
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Actually it is kind of true because humanity reacts to try to prevent the spread of more lethal viruses while allowing less lethal ones (like the common cold) to spread.
    Valid point.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    kjh said:

    Agree. The virus has no ability to mutate as more or less deadly. It is entirely random. It is simply a case of how easy it is to survive and multiply. A virus that kills instantly upon infection will not be successful as it won't get a chance to spread, but if a virus was easily transmittable and took time to make the host ill so that it could spread easily and yet be 100% fatal it would be a viable mutation.
    The mutations are random, but the tendency is for viruses to become less deadly (for which there is plenty of empirical evidence).

    Your argument assumes no correlation between transmissibility and onset of the disease.

    Can you provide an example of a virus that has mutated to become more infectious AND with a longer onset time?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,829

    So Gordon Brown is now meant to be the example of being prepared for a crisis ?

    Infinite LOLs.
    Or indeed an example of not caring what is written in the Daily Mail.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,810

    Cummings was in a private environment in his own car.

    He was not breathing over and risking infecting several dozen other people in his selfishness.
    Well we don't know exactly what he did. But the point with him is that as a key member of the team that had just wrote and publicized the Rules he had a greater duty than a random member of the public not to flout them.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,482
    I'm still struggling with vaccine logistics and some of the ambitious pronouncements from, primarily but not exclusively, those supportive of the Government.

    To go back to numbers - 12 million people over 65, 25 million over 50 so to inoculate all means 24 million and 50 million injections respectively (subject to a single shot vaccine becoming available at some point).

    So, if we assume 80% take up among the over 65s, that's 20 million vaccinations supposedly by the end of March which is 90 days from January 1st. That's more than 200,000 jabs every day - 9,000 per hour, 154 per minute every minute, day and night.

    This has to be done, and Churchillian rhetoric notwithstanding, it's a formidable task. The point is expectation management, at which this Government struggles as it tries to balance reality and the promise of hope.

    As for the latter, @Cyclefree's comments this morning have made me think. This isn't just going to be a national vaccination challenge but a national mental health challenge and we need to see the same kind of commitment and resource put in to helping those who don't need the vaccine but need other forms of help.

    The fixation on needles and arms masks the equally urgent requirement for listening and minds. I've not appreciated that because I'm very fortunate but I do appreciate there is and continues to be a huge amount of suffering for many whether it be mental health or, worse, mental and physical abuse.

    It may be our greatest shame may not be how we dealt with care homes but how we failed those facing mental and physical abuse about which there is much still to be revealed, I fear,

  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    There will be no post-Brexit trade deal between the UK and EU unless there is a "substantial shift" from Brussels in the coming days, a government source has told the BBC.

    BBC News - Brexit: No trade deal unless 'substantial shift' from EU, UK says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55381322

    Why should Brussels shift their view just to suit the UK? If they think it’s in their own interest not to then it’s up to them.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,482
    Sorry - another question posed by Mrs Stodge for the epidemiologists, virologists or right know-alls on here - if you have the vaccine, you achieve 100% immunity a week after the injection, I'm told.

    Does that mean you can contract the virus and still transmit it to others even though you won't suffer any symptoms? In other words, does the vaccine make you asymptomatic or does it prevent you contracting the virus and being a carrier?
  • Well indeed in the short term there'll be more disruption, I don't think anyone reasonable disputes this.

    In the medium to long term though it's a different matter.

    One remarkable statistic is that despite all the protestations of doom about if the UK chose not to join the Euro, or chose to hold an EU referendum, or voted to Leave . . . Is that in both the 2000-2009 and 2010-2019 decades the UK grew faster than the Eurozone per capita.

    An interest judgement as to how Brexit goes over the next decade will be to make the same comparison in a decades time. It wouldn't surprise me if the UK over the next decade grows faster again per capita than the Eurozone. If so then I think that it is safe to say the UK has done OK in Brexiting, what do you think?
    Lol! In the long term, we are all dead, Philip, but I will rest easier in my grave knowing that my countrymen are enjoying the sunlit uplands which were promised them before the referendum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,852

    There will be no post-Brexit trade deal between the UK and EU unless there is a "substantial shift" from Brussels in the coming days, a government source has told the BBC.

    BBC News - Brexit: No trade deal unless 'substantial shift' from EU, UK says
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55381322

    Therefore by definition if the UK agrees to any deal, it will claim the EU made a substantial shift.
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    stodge said:

    Sorry - another question posed by Mrs Stodge for the epidemiologists, virologists or right know-alls on here - if you have the vaccine, you achieve 100% immunity a week after the injection, I'm told.

    Does that mean you can contract the virus and still transmit it to others even though you won't suffer any symptoms? In other words, does the vaccine make you asymptomatic or does it prevent you contracting the virus and being a carrier?

    I think the answer at the moment is we don't know. There are hints and hopes that the vaccines prevent transmission but it's not proven.
  • stodge said:

    Sorry - another question posed by Mrs Stodge for the epidemiologists, virologists or right know-alls on here - if you have the vaccine, you achieve 100% immunity a week after the injection, I'm told.

    Does that mean you can contract the virus and still transmit it to others even though you won't suffer any symptoms? In other words, does the vaccine make you asymptomatic or does it prevent you contracting the virus and being a carrier?

    The answer tends to be "we don't know yet".

    I'll have a guess at it reduces the risk of acting as a carrier but not to zero.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,468
    edited December 2020

    The mutations are random, but the tendency is for viruses to become less deadly (for which there is plenty of empirical evidence).

    Your argument assumes no correlation between transmissibility and onset of the disease.

    Can you provide an example of a virus that has mutated to become more infectious AND with a longer onset time?
    Actually, the strong correlation in respiratory diseases is an inverse one between transmissibility and morbidity/mortality and there is a well-understood mechanism for this. Sneezing assists in transmissibility of respiratory diseases, and sneezes are induced more in infections of the upper respiratory tract which tend to have lower morbidity/mortality levels than diseases of the lower respiratory tract (i.e. those that bind in the nose and throat, rather than in the bronchi and lungs).

    That is part of what makes COVID so unusual and deadly - SARS-CoV-2 binds with just about every tissue in the human body (as every tissue has the ACE-2 receptor to which the spike protein binds, and every tissue has one of the protease surface enzymes that activate the spike protein (i.e. cleave one of the sub-units so that it opens up that part of the protein thereby allowing the virus to enter the cell and infect it)) thus it is binding in both upper and lower respiratory tracts causing both high transmissibility and high morbidity/mortality.

    AND about half of all transmission happens before onset of symptoms.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,264
    IshmaelZ said:

    Not true. Viruses mutate randomly, and there is no reason to think less lethal mutations are more frequent.
    It's about which mutations get selected for. Killing vs not killing the host is not selective when you have a virtually infinite supply of infectable new hosts. So your claim applies to snow leopard viruses but not really to human ones.
    Yes, the pressure for evolutionary selection is pretty marginal if 99.5% of hosts survive compared to 98% for example. Making a host sick enough that they don't socialise while infective probably is a bigger factor. One reason why Covid-19 has been so hard to control is because of so much asymptomatic and pre-symptomatic spread. Whether the host dies or not after the active viral phase makes little evolutionary difference.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 5,045

    So Gordon Brown is now meant to be the example of being prepared for a crisis ?

    Infinite LOLs.
    Or it could be read that when Gordon Brown would be more prepared than you, you’ve got a bit of a problem.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 14,012

    Its already in those and other countries and likely originated in one of them as well.
    Worth just checking all that against Heathrow departures board. There's a flight to Brussels in half an hour and Dublin departure at 3.30.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 55,180

    Indeed. The Tories have absolutely gutted the police of resources. The same MPs who voted again and again and again to cut funding and thus officer numbers then whine about the lack of officers.
    Sigh https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/905169/police-workforce-mar20-hosb2020.pdf#:~:text=• 129,110 full-time equivalent (FTE) officers were in,the largest year on year change since 2003/04.

    Number of officers in England and Wales increased by 20k from June 19 to June 20.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,945
    Scott_xP said:

    Early test of the Northern Ireland border...

    https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1340657979511717891

    Isn't all this pointless? Didn't they say the new strain had been around since September. Bozo's trip to the EU a few weeks ago has already spread this around.....
This discussion has been closed.