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Merry Christmas: rising Covid cases, No Deal Brexit, recession and maybe lockdown – politicalbetting

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  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    The Brexiteer whining has started.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1337806421820395535

    Sorry pal, you own this now.

    The relentless whinge of the media Brexiteer will become the muzak of our time. The background to everything.
    It will find it hard to drown out the endless whining of the Remoaners.
    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.
    Are you going to be joining us back in Britain to fight the good fight for independence, felix ?
    No but you may continue to use all my hard-earned taxes paid to the UK each year for the cause and I'll continue to cast my vote appropriately at each and every GE. So kind of you to think of me in the midst of your continuing trauma.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Scott_xP said:

    felix said:

    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.

    Brexiteers have been whining for 40 years
    Well Scott now you know how long it's gonna take to reverse the result. Gonna be a marathon not a sprint.
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    The biggest problem, if the Germans had managed to land, would have been the near total lack of heavy equipment for defending troops.

    In practice though a German invasion would have been untenable. I don't think towed Rhine barges would have been seaworthy enough to cross the channel.
    You answered your own question there.

    If the Germans wanted to invade Britain in 1942-43 and had seriously planned for it, without declaring war on the USA, they could have done so and won.

    But, they couldn't do so in 1940 with no logistical tail and fewer surface ships than the Royal Navy has *today* at a time when it had an absolutely massive home fleet.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,027
    edited December 2020
    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?

    They are all bad
    Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
    I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
    Nationalism has existed for centuries.

    I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.

    Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.

    Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.

    There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.

    I could cite many more.
    Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
    A bit of crossover.

    Then again not all empires are equal.

    Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?

    The British Indian Army.
    Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
    Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
    Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
    Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.

    But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
    That's right, but an earlier contingent came out of France in 1940.
    Neal Ascherson's novel Death of the Fronsac gives a decent account of WWII Polish experience in Britain/Scotland (and is a good read also).
  • Options
    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2020
    felix said:

    felix said:

    The Brexiteer whining has started.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1337806421820395535

    Sorry pal, you own this now.

    The relentless whinge of the media Brexiteer will become the muzak of our time. The background to everything.
    It will find it hard to drown out the endless whining of the Remoaners.
    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.
    Are you going to be joining us back in Britain to fight the good fight for independence, felix ?
    No but you may continue to use all my hard-earned taxes paid to the UK each year for the cause and I'll continue to cast my vote appropriately at each and every GE. So kind of you to think of me in the midst of your continuing trauma.
    Well, we're all very much obliged for that support, and it's very good to know. Philip Thompson I know will be back soon too, to help with the cross-channel patrols.
  • Options
    Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,885
    felix said:

    Well Scott now you know how long it's gonna take to reverse the result.

    Nah
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    Carnyx said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?

    They are all bad
    Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
    I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
    Nationalism has existed for centuries.

    I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.

    Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.

    Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.

    There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.

    I could cite many more.
    Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
    A bit of crossover.

    Then again not all empires are equal.

    Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?

    The British Indian Army.
    Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
    Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
    Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
    Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.

    But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
    PS I remember a Canadian coming to visit my grandmother and mother ca. 1970. Turned out to be a Pole who had been conscripted into the Wehrmacht (Silesian?), then captured and joined the Polish Army in the west. He'd been billeted in our house during the war.
    According to Wikipedia (!) 35% of the Polish forces in the West, numbering 250 000 by 1944 were Wehrmacht deserters or prisoners. I suspect most were in Wehrmacht Labour battalions rather than front line.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:
    Britain is a sovereign nation now; we do not need to wait three weeks. It's all meaningless spin.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,955
    LadyG said:

    Plus there's some crossover in the wars.

    Take Ireland, religious war or nationalism writ large as Ireland is invaded via a Papul Bull and mass immigration (or the great replacement) in the North sees a country torn asunder.

    I see the IRA as Christian freedom fighters.

    Wars of imperialism have surely killed more than either nationalism or religion.

    Mongols, Mughals, Soviets, Rome, Ottomans, Britain!
    Those are nothing compared to the number killed by their own governments:
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.
  • Options
    Mentions of Sweden seem to have shrunk to zero, even (especially) on Andra Neil's twitter.

    https://twitter.com/Nordic_News/status/1337857285624913922?s=20
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,779

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    Sovereign nation blah blah .....

    It’s getting rather tedious now . It’s getting as tiresome as Get Brexit Done .
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    felix said:

    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.

    Brexiteers have been whining for 40 years
    Well Scott now you know how long it's gonna take to reverse the result. Gonna be a marathon not a sprint.
    10 years is a reasonable target for Rejoin. Will you be voting to Remain/Rejoin next time too?
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,258
    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    felix said:

    The Brexiteer whining has started.

    https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1337806421820395535

    Sorry pal, you own this now.

    The relentless whinge of the media Brexiteer will become the muzak of our time. The background to everything.
    It will find it hard to drown out the endless whining of the Remoaners.
    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.
    Are you going to be joining us back in Britain to fight the good fight for independence, felix ?
    No but you may continue to use all my hard-earned taxes paid to the UK each year for the cause and I'll continue to cast my vote appropriately at each and every GE. So kind of you to think of me in the midst of your continuing trauma.
    Well, we're all very much obliged for that support, and it's very good to know. Philip Thompson I know will be back soon too, to help with the cross-channel patrols.
    De nada.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited December 2020
    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1337866557125496832

    We are back to "talks as long as required"...we have been doing thst for 4 years. Either there is a comprise to be had or there isn't. It increasingly looks like there isn't on such a fundamental issue that no amount more years will change that.

    Its back to the tactic from Remain MPs if we just wait it out, everybody will give up and we will just rejoin.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    Scott_xP said:

    felix said:

    Totally agree - it has been the greatest and longest whingefest in History and I'm including Ted Heath in this.

    Brexiteers have been whining for 40 years
    Well Scott now you know how long it's gonna take to reverse the result. Gonna be a marathon not a sprint.
    10 years is a reasonable target for Rejoin. Will you be voting to Remain/Rejoin next time too?
    I would weigh it up based on the conditions at the time but I'd certainly anticipate voting to rejoin. I love both my native and adopted country so naturally would prefer them to be closely aligned. Either way I'd respect the result and make the best of it - anything other would be amost 'Trumpian' don't you agree?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    As a Chemical Engineer, I can assure you that I wouldn't have a clue either!
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Mentions of Sweden seem to have shrunk to zero, even (especially) on Andra Neil's twitter.

    https://twitter.com/Nordic_News/status/1337857285624913922?s=20

    The graph there is fairly scary. Sweden now has a covid rate twice that of the UK.

    Certainly staff attrition is high here too. Last week we were told that 40% of our respiratory unit were off sick, and not all will be physical illness. One of our ICU Consultants told me that they have had to get emergency psychiatric intervention for a suicidal HCW at the end of a shift.

  • Options

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    No, that's your bias talking.

    You'd earn my respect if you were objective.

    Boris is being fanatical about the LPF, and Macron is being fanatical about fish and process.

    The EU isn't being creative enough about governance mechanisms in conjunction with the UK - they both share blame there.
  • Options
    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1337853137739259905

    Your occasional reminder that Johnson was the worst Foreign Office minister in living memory.

  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Mentions of Sweden seem to have shrunk to zero, even (especially) on Andra Neil's twitter.

    https://twitter.com/Nordic_News/status/1337857285624913922?s=20

    The graph there is fairly scary. Sweden now has a covid rate twice that of the UK.

    Certainly staff attrition is high here too. Last week we were told that 40% of our respiratory unit were off sick, and not all will be physical illness. One of our ICU Consultants told me that they have had to get emergency psychiatric intervention for a suicidal HCW at the end of a shift.

    :(
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    twitter.com/forwardnotback/status/1337860408229695490

    Is this another momentum style data harvesting company?
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    Heseltine?

    He ceased to be a grandee in the late 90s. It'd amazing how long he's been able to spin that status out for.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1337853137739259905

    Your occasional reminder that Johnson was the worst Foreign Office minister in living memory.

    What do they expect if there isn't a deal?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    Scott_xP said:

    twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1337866557125496832

    We are back to "talks as long as required"...we have been doing thst for 4 years. Either there is a comprise to be had or there isn't. It increasingly looks like there isn't on such a fundamental issur that no amount more years will change that. Its back to the hope from Remain MPs if we just wait it out, everybody will give up and we will just rejoin.
    Yes, I'm all for talking, but at several points in the many years of Brexit things have been made worse by kicking the damn can again. It doesn't always help, particularly when the issues are pretty technical and limited in scope by certain points of negotiation, and there's really no reason whatsoever that you couldn't have them thrash it out in a day. The old excuse of going back to those setting the directions, be they PM or EU heads of government or whoever, doesn't wash either, since they will definitely have hypothesized various options and their willingness to accept some, or not.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    No, that's your bias talking.

    You'd earn my respect if you were objective.

    Boris is being fanatical about the LPF, and Macron is being fanatical about fish and process.

    The EU isn't being creative enough about governance mechanisms in conjunction with the UK - they both share blame there.
    True about Macron and the fish by sounds of things, but I don't think that is what will finally sink an agreement.
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    Good evening to you too @Mexicanpete.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,101

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    No, that's your bias talking.

    You'd earn my respect if you were objective.

    Boris is being fanatical about the LPF, and Macron is being fanatical about fish and process.

    The EU isn't being creative enough about governance mechanisms in conjunction with the UK - they both share blame there.
    True about Macron and the fish by sounds of things, but I don't think that is what will finally sink an agreement.
    Will that be our gunboats?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    I think there'd fertile ground to fire up leavers who would not be on board with no deal, and I cannot believe they could not find someone like that to quote rather than bloody Heseltine again, someone who hasn't been significant for nearly 20 years.
  • Options
    Be some interesting moves in tiers next week, Greater Manc now lower than the English average, Burnham will explode if we're not in tier 2, London heading the wrong way rapidly so presumably in tier 3.

    Will Sunak provide additional support to London because it is London for being in tier 3?

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/breaking-greater-manchesters-covid-rate-19448554
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Aha - from 'initiative' to 'project' but it remains 'LTD' - oh Jeremy you'll never know just how LTD you are bless you.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
    We have a Ukrainian club in Leicester (founded by Ukranians from the prewar Polish part of Ukraine around Lviv). Excellent Ukrainian beer, and good hosts for functions.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    Heseltine?

    He ceased to be a grandee in the late 90s. It'd amazing how long he's been able to spin that status out for.
    Grandee is a bit like 'senior backbencher', in that everyone becomes one for purposes of a newspaper headline. He does reasonably count as one, but there have to be better options at this point, including more recent ones.
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,479
    edited December 2020

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?

    They are all bad
    Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
    I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
    Nationalism has existed for centuries.

    I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.

    Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.

    Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.

    There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.

    I could cite many more.
    Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
    A bit of crossover.

    Then again not all empires are equal.

    Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?

    The British Indian Army.
    Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
    Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
    Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
    Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.

    But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
    That's right, but an earlier contingent came out of France in 1940.
    Neal Ascherson's novel Death of the Fronsac gives a decent account of WWII Polish experience in Britain/Scotland (and is a good read also).
    Checking, Non-British pilots were 20% - 574 out of 2353. A Polish squadron shot down most enemies, but that is well known now. Numbers:

    Polish Republic 145-146
    New Zealand 127–135
    Canada 112
    Czechoslovakia 84–88
    Belgium 28–30
    Australia 26–32
    South Africa 22–25
    Free France 13–14
    Ireland 10
    United States 9–11
    Southern Rhodesia 3–4
    Barbados 1
    Jamaica 1
    Newfoundland 1
    Northern Rhodesia 1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-British_personnel_in_the_RAF_during_the_Battle_of_Britain
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    kle4 said:

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    I think there'd fertile ground to fire up leavers who would not be on board with no deal, and I cannot believe they could not find someone like that to quote rather than bloody Heseltine again, someone who hasn't been significant for nearly 20 years.
    They're fishing in the ever dwindling puddle of Guardianistas....
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    Another place that was hailed as doing fairly well in the spring...

    https://twitter.com/BNODesk/status/1337872697485893632?s=19
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    Be some interesting moves in tiers next week, Greater Manc now lower than the English average, Burnham will explode if we're not in tier 2, London heading the wrong way rapidly so presumably in tier 3.

    Will Sunak provide additional support to London because it is London for being in tier 3?

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/breaking-greater-manchesters-covid-rate-19448554

    The direction of travel, we need the whole of the UK in Tier 4.
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    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
    We have a Ukrainian club in Leicester (founded by Ukranians from the prewar Polish part of Ukraine around Lviv). Excellent Ukrainian beer, and good hosts for functions.
    The Ukraine is never a country I think of as having excellent beer.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    edited December 2020

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1337853137739259905

    Your occasional reminder that Johnson was the worst Foreign Office minister in living memory.

    I presume that tweet means the comments that led to the 'gunboat headlines' have not gone down well, rather than the headlines themselves, since being angry at Boris for how the press reports things would be really stupid. Anger at those feeding such headlines on the other hand, sure.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,669

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Scott_xP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Speaking as a Welshman, why is ‘English nationalist’ a term of abuse when being a Scottish or Welsh Nationalist is seen as positively praiseworthy?

    They are all bad
    Nationalism has caused even more wars than religion with none of the benefits.
    I find that hard to believe given that it only emerged relatively recently.
    Nationalism has existed for centuries.

    I could cite the wars of Scottish independence that started in the 13th Century.

    Or The Uprising of Asen and Peter from the 12th century.

    Or Qin's Wars of Unification from the 200 BCs.

    There's also the Jewish-Roman wars.

    I could cite many more.
    Howzabout Imperialism, or is that a variation on nationalism?
    A bit of crossover.

    Then again not all empires are equal.

    Take the British Empire, people say it was bad, but where did the largest volunteer army in history come from?

    The British Indian Army.
    Surely not, Britain stood alone didn't it?
    Well it did if you exclude all the Johnny Foreigners.
    Was it 14% of the pilots in the Battle of Britain were Eastern European refugees?
    Dunno about the numbers, 14% looks high and do Poles and Czechs consider themselves Eastern or Central Europeans? Their contribution is well-known and acknowledged in the Battle of Britain film among others. There were also a lot of Commonwealth pilots.

    But what people tend to forget is there were also large numbers of soldiers from Poland and other countries vanquished by the Nazis who were in Britain ready to resist and repel any Nazi invasion had Operation Sealion gone ahead (along with most of the British Army, of course).
    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.
    That's right, but an earlier contingent came out of France in 1940.
    Neal Ascherson's novel Death of the Fronsac gives a decent account of WWII Polish experience in Britain/Scotland (and is a good read also).
    Thanks for that - duly noted.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340

    Foxy said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    The biggest problem, if the Germans had managed to land, would have been the near total lack of heavy equipment for defending troops.

    In practice though a German invasion would have been untenable. I don't think towed Rhine barges would have been seaworthy enough to cross the channel.
    You answered your own question there.

    If the Germans wanted to invade Britain in 1942-43 and had seriously planned for it, without declaring war on the USA, they could have done so and won.

    But, they couldn't do so in 1940 with no logistical tail and fewer surface ships than the Royal Navy has *today* at a time when it had an absolutely massive home fleet.
    The problem for the *Germans* would have been the near total lack of heavy equipment. A handful of tanks was the most they could hope to bring, and only light artillery. With limited amounts of ammunition.

    Most of their equipment was horse drawn. Imagine horses after 12 hours+ on a flat bottom boat in the Channel.
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    nico679nico679 Posts: 4,779

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    This whole Macron thing is an easy scapegoat for the UKs right wing press . He isn’t going to crash the chances of a deal against the other 26 members . The EU position hasn’t changed in 4 years , the more access you want the more you have to give in return . At the end of the day the EU feel pretty good at the moment , they’ve got the budget agreed , the recovery fund , rule of law mechanism and new emissions targets. A no deal will hurt them but they’re not going to put the single market at risk.

    Perhaps the last few days is just theatrics and there still might be a deal , very hard to really know what’s going on and if any progress has been made .
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    This is palpable bullshit. A trade deal does not breach the Single Market rules because the UK is not in the Single Market. Any more than a trade deal between the EU and Canada breaches the Single Market rules. This is the lie that keeps being spread by he EU and their useful idiot supporters. We don't want to be in the Single Market. We just want a trade deal like any other third country. It is the EU who keep insisting we have to have some special arrangement.
    It takes two to tango. We do not get to set the counterpartys terms.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,479

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    Czech & Slovak Club - ah yes. The food.

    Do you reckon the story about the Soviet diplomat is true?

    The Polish centre in Hammersmith is large, bustling and the cafe does magnificent cakes....
    I was working on a telephone exchange training with BT when they opened the Polish Centre (converted Methodist Church) in I think Ealing High Street in the mid-1980s :smile: .
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    nico679 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    This whole Macron thing is an easy scapegoat for the UKs right wing press . He isn’t going to crash the chances of a deal against the other 26 members . The EU position hasn’t changed in 4 years , the more access you want the more you have to give in return . At the end of the day the EU feel pretty good at the moment , they’ve got the budget agreed , the recovery fund , rule of law mechanism and new emissions targets. A no deal will hurt them but they’re not going to put the single market at risk.

    Perhaps the last few days is just theatrics and there still might be a deal , very hard to really know what’s going on and if any progress has been made .
    I think it generally accepted that there are lots of theatrics around the agreeing of deals, the sheer repetitive banality of statements and reporting of positions demonstrates that. However, it also seems generally accepted that people can be very stupid, and spend enough time in theatrical displays of outrage and posturing, and it starts to turn real.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340

    Scott_xP said:
    That's about the first bit of even vague rumour or briefing in almost two days. Either they're running a very tight ship, as Boris johnson's new favourite phrase goes , or there's nothing in the box.
    I don't think it's going to happen.

    Both Macron and Boris (for it is they) both believe theu have more to gain from No Deal than lose.
    I don't think it is Macron. It's the EU as a whole. They are agreed that breaching the single market rules isn't worth the candle of a deal with UK.
    No, that's your bias talking.

    You'd earn my respect if you were objective.

    Boris is being fanatical about the LPF, and Macron is being fanatical about fish and process.

    The EU isn't being creative enough about governance mechanisms in conjunction with the UK - they both share blame there.
    True about Macron and the fish by sounds of things, but I don't think that is what will finally sink an agreement.
    Part of the problem there, is that in French politics "giving up" a special interest group like the fishermen would get all the other special interest groups - wine producers etc fired up, in a way that simply wouldn't happen in the UK.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    As a Chemical Engineer, I can assure you that I wouldn't have a clue either!
    There are important points re detrimental impact of high octane fuels on engine components, as well as the metallurgical challenges getting suitable metals for sleeve valve engines like the Sabre and Centaurus. It is an extraordinary book.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    But Heseltine is a hardcore Remainer - as so is a Proper Person. Do you mean to suggest that people should be.... *talking* to Not Proper People?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,101
    edited December 2020
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    Heseltine?

    He ceased to be a grandee in the late 90s. It'd amazing how long he's been able to spin that status out for.
    Grandee is a bit like 'senior backbencher', in that everyone becomes one for purposes of a newspaper headline. He does reasonably count as one, but there have to be better options at this point, including more recent ones.
    Heseltine certainly counts as a "grandee", but not a party one. He speaks for that constituency who left the Conservatives and voted LibDem or (God forbid) Labour in 2019.

    He bears a considerable degree of culpability for being part of the cabal of British Conservatives prepared to slide the UK into the EU's boa constrictor embrace, of the mindset that the voters couldn't be asked because they couldn't be trusted. They have been winnowed out by the democratic process, and now comprise Lords and ex-PMs.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,669
    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    Do you mean the Sectet Horsepower Race? It hjas been duly noted, thank you.

    One of the most interesting pieces I ever read on engineering was a discussion of riveting technology in the 1930s and 1940s - also very important in increasing speed at the time ...

    While we are hacing a Saturday evening chat, this is also to be recommended for a slightly later generation, as quite a classic sui generis (though some chemical knowledge is useful): Ignition!: An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants (Rutgers University Press Classics) by John Drury Clark
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
    We have a Ukrainian club in Leicester (founded by Ukranians from the prewar Polish part of Ukraine around Lviv). Excellent Ukrainian beer, and good hosts for functions.
    The Ukraine is never a country I think of as having excellent beer.
    Russian beer was good too, but when I was there for the World Cup, the locals would all drink American Budweiser. All part of the cultural cringe, it seems.
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    WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,503
    edited December 2020



    Neal Ascherson's novel Death of the Fronsac gives a decent account of WWII Polish experience in Britain/Scotland (and is a good read also).

    My father was at university with Neal Ascherson in the 50s and said he was a nice chap. He's still writing for the London Review of Books at the age of nearly ninety, I think.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    But Heseltine is a hardcore Remainer - as so is a Proper Person. Do you mean to suggest that people should be.... *talking* to Not Proper People?
    Very good. It still amuses me to this day to think that all of Mandelson's years as MP in Hartlepool failed to civilise them - as dear Roger of this parish and Provence so often reminds us.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340
    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    Do you mean the Sectet Horsepower Race? It hjas been duly noted, thank you.

    One of the most interesting pieces I ever read on engineering was a discussion of riveting technology in the 1930s and 1940s - also very important in increasing speed at the time ...

    While we are hacing a Saturday evening chat, this is also to be recommended for a slightly later generation, as quite a classic sui generis (though some chemical knowledge is useful): Ignition!: An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants (Rutgers University Press Classics) by John Drury Clark
    Ignition! A classic to make anyone smile. You don't need much chemistry to love the sense of humour...

    "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively"

    “The Air Force, appalled, cut the program off after a year, belatedly realizing that they could have got the same structure from any experienced propellant man (me, for instance) during half an hour’s conversation, and at a total cost of five dollars or so. (For drinks. I would have been afraid even to draw the structure without at least five Martinis under my belt.)”
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340
    dr_spyn said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    As a Chemical Engineer, I can assure you that I wouldn't have a clue either!
    There are important points re detrimental impact of high octane fuels on engine components, as well as the metallurgical challenges getting suitable metals for sleeve valve engines like the Sabre and Centaurus. It is an extraordinary book.
    I missed getting copy earlier....

    Does he say anything about the Fairy P.24?- a myth if there ever was one.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,287
    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    Do you mean the Sectet Horsepower Race? It hjas been duly noted, thank you.

    One of the most interesting pieces I ever read on engineering was a discussion of riveting technology in the 1930s and 1940s - also very important in increasing speed at the time ...

    While we are hacing a Saturday evening chat, this is also to be recommended for a slightly later generation, as quite a classic sui generis (though some chemical knowledge is useful): Ignition!: An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants (Rutgers University Press Classics) by John Drury Clark
    You got the title right.

    Sometimes I have had to look again at photographs & diagrams as they were from German technical reports on The Merlin engine or The Mosquito. But his Twitter feed is a gold mine of useful observations about the engineering challenges.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,189
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,479
    This is reminding me of an account of Arthur Scargill and the Stalin Society.
    eg https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stalin-apologists-drink-to-the-memory-of-uncle-joe-120991.html

    (This was when the Indy was still a newspaper)
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    The money tree has magically been found to help key farming and red wall voters, it seems.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    Czech & Slovak Club - ah yes. The food.

    Do you reckon the story about the Soviet diplomat is true?

    The Polish centre in Hammersmith is large, bustling and the cafe does magnificent cakes....
    I was working on a telephone exchange training with BT when they opened the Polish Centre (converted Methodist Church) in I think Ealing High Street in the mid-1980s :smile: .
    When I lived in Ealing I used to see huge crowds at mass there. Never mind filling the church, they filled the street.
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    Neal Ascherson's novel Death of the Fronsac gives a decent account of WWII Polish experience in Britain/Scotland (and is a good read also).

    My father was at university with Neal Ascherson in the 50s and said he was a nice chap. He's still writing for the London Review of Books aged nearly ninety, I think.
    Yep, he's a wonder, a great rebuttal to the stereotype some folk like to cling to of wild-eyed, blood & soil supporters of Scottish indy.

    He always appears incredibly affable but he got himself into a bit of hot water a couple of years ago after recounting how he'd shot 2 badly wounded insurgents while serving with the Marines in Malaya - brutally honest.

    “I saw war in Malaya. That was a campaign that was like an inoculation. It gave you a tiny example of all the worst that war can do, the misery, terror, cruelty, blood, but in small doses so you get immunised. Did it prey on me? Yes, [but] not when I was young. When you are young you are tougher, more callous. I just shrugged my shoulders and said, ‘What else can I do?’ There were these two young men in awful terminal agony. I just didn’t think about it, of course I put them out of their misery. But afterwards you get older, life gets more beautiful. You think what an extraordinary privilege it’s been to be alive in this marvellous place and I thought, ‘I took two of those lives.’ Even if I had to, I still took them. I wish it hadn’t happened. I think, what were their families like? What sort of lives would they have had? With age you get more sensitive.”
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    tlg86 said:
    Let's hope it stays that way and that all inolved can move on with their lives.
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    tlg86 said:
    Isn't it just
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    felix said:

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    But Heseltine is a hardcore Remainer - as so is a Proper Person. Do you mean to suggest that people should be.... *talking* to Not Proper People?
    Very good. It still amuses me to this day to think that all of Mandelson's years as MP in Hartlepool failed to civilise them - as dear Roger of this parish and Provence so often reminds us.
    Remain won 30% of the vote in Hartlepool, so even Roger could find some convivial company. He might just prefer to avoid Wetherspoons to be sure.
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    MattW said:

    This is reminding me of an account of Arthur Scargill and the Stalin Society.
    eg https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stalin-apologists-drink-to-the-memory-of-uncle-joe-120991.html

    (This was when the Indy was still a newspaper)
    Corbyn's big day is elated to this??

    https://twitter.com/RDHale_/status/1337861918434992128
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    He's gonna be still smarting from not being invited to Jeremy's new party.
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    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,340
    felix said:

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    But Heseltine is a hardcore Remainer - as so is a Proper Person. Do you mean to suggest that people should be.... *talking* to Not Proper People?
    Very good. It still amuses me to this day to think that all of Mandelson's years as MP in Hartlepool failed to civilise them - as dear Roger of this parish and Provence so often reminds us.
    Quite. One spends ones days (well ones servants days) shouting at the vile, racist, bigoted scum to CHANGE YOUR WAYS, SCUM! And all they do is recalcitrantly disincline to acquiesce.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    dr_spyn said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    As a Chemical Engineer, I can assure you that I wouldn't have a clue either!
    There are important points re detrimental impact of high octane fuels on engine components, as well as the metallurgical challenges getting suitable metals for sleeve valve engines like the Sabre and Centaurus. It is an extraordinary book.
    Yep, you lost me after high octane fuels.

    However, I can discuss why Fischer Tropsch Synthesis gives very low octane gasoline but high cetane diesel, if that helps.
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    Are these new billions or a re-release of the existing billions?
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Foxy said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    The 'remain' lobby got the campaign wrong in 2016 and have gone on digging deeper and deeper into the mire ever since getting their tactics wrong. Why would you be surprised at anything else?
    But Heseltine is a hardcore Remainer - as so is a Proper Person. Do you mean to suggest that people should be.... *talking* to Not Proper People?
    Very good. It still amuses me to this day to think that all of Mandelson's years as MP in Hartlepool failed to civilise them - as dear Roger of this parish and Provence so often reminds us.
    Remain won 30% of the vote in Hartlepool, so even Roger could find some convivial company. He might just prefer to avoid Wetherspoons to be sure.
    Quite - their avocado dip is actually still mushy peas I've heard. Astonishing to think that a combined Tory/Brexit vote their would have taken the seat comfortably.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    Foxy said:



    I think the Poles only arrived in 1941-42 to form the Polish Army, coming out via Iran and Kenya after Barbarossa started.

    In London, there was an active Polish community in the west of the capital. The Czechoslovaks settled in NW London (I once ate at the Czech & Slovak Club in West End Lane, quite an experience).

    As someone else said, there were some soldiers from the various occupied countries who managed to effect an escape to Britain and would doubtless have tried to stop the invading Germans had they landed. There were various Governments-in-exile as well as King Haakon of Norway, Queen Wilhelmina of the Netherlands and other foreign royalty.

    I remember that Czech club! A very unusual experience, a high ceilinged house, like eating in the front room of a seaside B&B. A rather subdued and formal atmosphere, with some aged Czech regulars in their Sunday best. A good preparation for visiting just after the iron curtain fell; if it’s still the same, today not so much.
    We have a Ukrainian club in Leicester (founded by Ukranians from the prewar Polish part of Ukraine around Lviv). Excellent Ukrainian beer, and good hosts for functions.
    When I did my PGCE, the Ukrainian Club was the unofficial student bar of the Education Department. Good and cheap.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,658
    edited December 2020

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    I have been reading Callum Douglas's The Secret Horsepower War, which covers aircraft engine development in Britain, Germany and The USA. It is an exceptional book, though the technical side can be hard going for a non engineer.

    Do you mean the Sectet Horsepower Race? It hjas been duly noted, thank you.

    One of the most interesting pieces I ever read on engineering was a discussion of riveting technology in the 1930s and 1940s - also very important in increasing speed at the time ...

    While we are hacing a Saturday evening chat, this is also to be recommended for a slightly later generation, as quite a classic sui generis (though some chemical knowledge is useful): Ignition!: An Informal History of Liquid Rocket Propellants (Rutgers University Press Classics) by John Drury Clark
    Ignition! A classic to make anyone smile. You don't need much chemistry to love the sense of humour...

    "It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively"

    “The Air Force, appalled, cut the program off after a year, belatedly realizing that they could have got the same structure from any experienced propellant man (me, for instance) during half an hour’s conversation, and at a total cost of five dollars or so. (For drinks. I would have been afraid even to draw the structure without at least five Martinis under my belt.)”
    On the topic of ICE development...

    For a long time I have wanted to get copies of LJK Setright's Some Unusual Engines and The Power to Fly.

    These days secondhand copies sell for over £200 each - and I don't want them that much.

    I should have just borrowed the copies at my grammar school library and 'forgotten' to return them.

    PS thanks for the tip on The Secret Horsepower Race... now added to Mrs P. Christmas shopping list :wink:
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 39,669
    Scott_xP said:
    Ooh, nice bit of trolling (so to speak).
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597
    Trump is the Alf Garnett to the Proud Boys ICF.
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    RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,977
    ..I'm feeling really sorry for Ireland in all this at the moment.
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    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1337853137739259905

    Your occasional reminder that Johnson was the worst Foreign Office minister in living memory.

    I presume that tweet means the comments that led to the 'gunboat headlines' have not gone down well, rather than the headlines themselves, since being angry at Boris for how the press reports things would be really stupid. Anger at those feeding such headlines on the other hand, sure.
    It's probably anger in the same way there was anger in the British camp on Thursday at tieing No Deal movement of trucks and aeroplanes to unrestricted fishing rights for a further 12 months.

    Neither side does things out of charity. These are tough negotiations.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,592
    Carnyx said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Ooh, nice bit of trolling (so to speak).
    It would be in Seine to carry on, if you get my Drift.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,597

    MattW said:

    This is reminding me of an account of Arthur Scargill and the Stalin Society.
    eg https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/stalin-apologists-drink-to-the-memory-of-uncle-joe-120991.html

    (This was when the Indy was still a newspaper)
    Corbyn's big day is elated to this??

    https://twitter.com/RDHale_/status/1337861918434992128
    The 1%. Is that the LibDems?
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    DougSealDougSeal Posts: 11,133
    kle4 said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I don't disagree about anger at no deal Brexit, but is Heseltine really the best figure they could find to quote in criticism of it? The impact of him doing so as Tory grandee is somewhat reduced given his support for the LDs last year. I'm not going HYUFD on party loyalty or anything, it's just that a man who was so against any Brexit in any form may not be the best person to symbolise new concerns about no deal Brexit.
    Beyond the headline they did get Elwood and Green. That’s two serving MPs, making them marginally more significant than Heslitine, as acting together they would reduce the PM’s majority to a wafer thin squeaky bum time 76.

    Seriously though, at what point do MPs not on the payroll, with no chance of ever getting on the payroll, turn round and look at the blank cheques being thrown around or promised,and say “this isn’t conservatism”? I don’t think, on balance, the party will have a Peelite type split - but significantly there is no “Johnsonite” wing of the party so it’s not impossible.
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    Fans at the boxing, signing and chanting....now what it is we know about spread of covid....
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