politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Starmer tells Boris to “get a grip” as they prepare for the fi
Comments
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Perhaps they’re testing their eyesight.state_go_away said:
The point is that irrespective is this is indeed a peaceful protest it is still illegal . You ignore thatstodge said:
"Harassing people for weeks" ? Come on - the situation at Easter was especially precarious - we were at the height of the outbreak. Even then, there were individuals who either didn't understand the rules or chose not to.Andy_JS said:
They've been harassing people for doing almost nothing for weeks and now they allow this sort of thing to happen. Disgraceful IMO.
"Allow this sort of thing to happen" - you mean, people exercising their right to peacefully protest. Perhaps you'd be happier if it was a pro-Government march (not that there would be many people on it). The organisers obtained a permit to hold the rally and the Police are ensuring any outbreaks of violence are contained which is how it should be.3 -
Doesn't there have to be intent for it to be murder?brokenwheel said:
Someone mentions they are a jew and the first thing you do is post an article about a jew murdering a black person and you don't understand how that is a teeny bit racist?Sunil_Prasannan said:
What's racist about linking to a Time article about a riot in NYC in 1991?brokenwheel said:
Well Sunil said this immediately after learning i'm Jewish, I'll let you read between the lines.eristdoof said:
Somebody got called an anti-semite and racist on this forum yesterday for mentioning this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw:brokenwheel said:
I guess the kneeling didn't work.Scott_xP said:
"Unter der Last der jüngsten Geschichte tat ich, was Menschen tun, wenn die Worte versagen. So gedachte ich Millionen Ermordeter."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2888009#Comment_2888009
If people wish to virtue-signal about racism I'm more than happy to point out their own.
For clarity, what I wrote was:
@brokenwheel is probably old enough to remember this:
The incident that set off the 1991 Crown Heights riots was easy to pinpoint: on Aug. 19, a car driven by a Hasidic Jew hit and killed a young black child. As a private ambulance took the driver away from the scene and emergency responders worked to free the victim and another child pinned under the car, the area’s black and Jewish residents–who had long been tense neighbors–erupted in anger. As TIME later noted, the result was the worst episode of racial violence in New York City city since 1968, after the death of Martin Luther King.
https://time.com/3989495/crown-heights-riots-time-magazine-history/
And what's racist about mentioning Willy Brandt KNEELING to commemorate and apologize for his nation's treatment of European Jews during the War?0 -
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one0 -
The Daily Mail certainly is backing the poor working man Laboit leader against Boris... another reason notvto buy the hateful rag.. as though anyone needed one..Pulpstar said:
I was surprised so many people here thought Boris had "won".CatMan said:
Is this the start of the right wing press turning against Boris?DecrepiterJohnL said:
The Telegraph liked it too, or rather condemned Boris.CorrectHorseBattery said:Daily Mail praising Starmer's PMQ performance. What reality am I in?
At PMQs, the Prime Minister seemed increasingly affronted by Sir Keir Starmer’s habit of asking him difficult questions
...
Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.
His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/oppositions-job-question-criticise-has-boris-johnson-forgotten/0 -
Is that true?StuartDickson said:Is BoZo wearing an earpiece in Parliament? What a useless dud that man is. Can only be sent out in public when someone is feeding him lines.
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I really need to get new glasses!!!squareroot2 said:
The Daily Mail certainly is backing the poor working man Laboit leader against Boris... another reason notvto buy the hateful rag.. as though anyone needed one..Pulpstar said:
I was surprised so many people here thought Boris had "won".CatMan said:
Is this the start of the right wing press turning against Boris?DecrepiterJohnL said:
The Telegraph liked it too, or rather condemned Boris.CorrectHorseBattery said:Daily Mail praising Starmer's PMQ performance. What reality am I in?
At PMQs, the Prime Minister seemed increasingly affronted by Sir Keir Starmer’s habit of asking him difficult questions
...
Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.
His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/oppositions-job-question-criticise-has-boris-johnson-forgotten/0 -
rcs1000 said:
Is that true?StuartDickson said:Is BoZo wearing an earpiece in Parliament? What a useless dud that man is. Can only be sent out in public when someone is feeding him lines.
It was from Skwawkbox, so .....0 -
With the best will in the world, I don't think the "Mr Muscles" defence will work for Boris at the present time wrt BMI.
But I'd expect him to need until Christmas to get over Corona properly.
I had a horrid bout of something fluey last Christmas that cost me 2 months housebound, and I'm still only back to 12-15 miles on the bike.0 -
Sorry, killing, I guess it makes all the difference.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't there have to be intent for it to be murder?brokenwheel said:
Someone mentions they are a jew and the first thing you do is post an article about a jew murdering a black person and you don't understand how that is a teeny bit racist?Sunil_Prasannan said:
What's racist about linking to a Time article about a riot in NYC in 1991?brokenwheel said:
Well Sunil said this immediately after learning i'm Jewish, I'll let you read between the lines.eristdoof said:
Somebody got called an anti-semite and racist on this forum yesterday for mentioning this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw:brokenwheel said:
I guess the kneeling didn't work.Scott_xP said:
"Unter der Last der jüngsten Geschichte tat ich, was Menschen tun, wenn die Worte versagen. So gedachte ich Millionen Ermordeter."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2888009#Comment_2888009
If people wish to virtue-signal about racism I'm more than happy to point out their own.
For clarity, what I wrote was:
@brokenwheel is probably old enough to remember this:
The incident that set off the 1991 Crown Heights riots was easy to pinpoint: on Aug. 19, a car driven by a Hasidic Jew hit and killed a young black child. As a private ambulance took the driver away from the scene and emergency responders worked to free the victim and another child pinned under the car, the area’s black and Jewish residents–who had long been tense neighbors–erupted in anger. As TIME later noted, the result was the worst episode of racial violence in New York City city since 1968, after the death of Martin Luther King.
https://time.com/3989495/crown-heights-riots-time-magazine-history/
And what's racist about mentioning Willy Brandt KNEELING to commemorate and apologize for his nation's treatment of European Jews during the War?0 -
You do write some nonsense - "unrestrained riots" and "the rioters did so with impunity". There were over 3,000 arrests during the 2011 riots - not an insignificant proportion of the rioters. Where's the impunity? I've no idea how many took part, but I'd guess around 10,000 and no more than 30,000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Under Theresa May's watch (as Home Secretary) we had unrestrained riots. The rioters did so with impunity. A martial arts expert wanted to come to the UK to train shopkeepers how to protect their premises - he was banned from travelling. We have a very sorry record in this country of protecting law breakers and harassing the law abiding. I hope these idiots have got it out of their system now. If they haven't, it's an opportunity to do things differently.Nigelb said:
Trying to break up the demonstration (or even, as @Luckyguy1983 seems to be suggesting, arrest several thousand people...) would not do anything to help that, and would in all likelihood make it worse.Ave_it said:
Ordinarily this demo wouldn't be a problem.Nigelb said:
Heavy handed policing would only exacerbate the problem, in all likelihood.Ave_it said:
The Metropolitan Police need to deal with this NOW.Andy_JS said:
They're not social distancing.HYUFD said:
To be fair most are wearing masks in the second videoeadric said:We are doomed. At least in America the rioters and protestors all wear masks
https://twitter.com/policehour/status/1268222247233376258?s=21
https://twitter.com/greenhalghsarah/status/1268222246323212289?s=21
It's an unlawful gathering and could undo all the progress that we have made against Covid 19.
As the Met Commissioner said this evening, it’s a matter of balancing risk.
But under the current environment these people are not only creating risk for themselves but also for many people likely to be of much greater risk of Covid 19.
The staff in ICUs in places like Northwick Park will not appreciate a return to conditions that they endured in April just because these people think they need to demonstrate now
About the only thing they could have done would have been to hand out free masks.0 -
They've now recanted.Andrew said:rcs1000 said:
Is that true?StuartDickson said:Is BoZo wearing an earpiece in Parliament? What a useless dud that man is. Can only be sent out in public when someone is feeding him lines.
It was from Skwawkbox, so .....0 -
Surely you can't be right. If you are right, there must have been a very bad signal into the HoC, or someone really useless like Domenic Cummings was on the other end of the wire.StuartDickson said:Is BoZo wearing an earpiece in Parliament? What a useless dud that man is. Can only be sent out in public when someone is feeding him lines.
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I bet the R in London is about 4 now! 😠0
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I don’t think so there was a close up showing a void in his ear which was black and some leapt to the earpiece theory. I was just surprised I couldn’t see right throughrcs1000 said:
Is that true?StuartDickson said:Is BoZo wearing an earpiece in Parliament? What a useless dud that man is. Can only be sent out in public when someone is feeding him lines.
0 -
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one0 -
Evening all
Interested in the leaked Transport for London showing the Underground can only run at about 15% capacity with a full service and 2m social distancing. Reduce the latter to 1m and the capacity only goes up to 25% at peak times.
Neither Mrs Stodge nor I expect to be back at our offices anytime soon.0 -
To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.3 -
More or less. In England the mens rea of murder is either an intention to kill or an intention to cause grievous bodily harm.rcs1000 said:
Doesn't there have to be intent for it to be murder?brokenwheel said:
Someone mentions they are a jew and the first thing you do is post an article about a jew murdering a black person and you don't understand how that is a teeny bit racist?Sunil_Prasannan said:
What's racist about linking to a Time article about a riot in NYC in 1991?brokenwheel said:
Well Sunil said this immediately after learning i'm Jewish, I'll let you read between the lines.eristdoof said:
Somebody got called an anti-semite and racist on this forum yesterday for mentioning this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw:brokenwheel said:
I guess the kneeling didn't work.Scott_xP said:
"Unter der Last der jüngsten Geschichte tat ich, was Menschen tun, wenn die Worte versagen. So gedachte ich Millionen Ermordeter."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2888009#Comment_2888009
If people wish to virtue-signal about racism I'm more than happy to point out their own.
For clarity, what I wrote was:
@brokenwheel is probably old enough to remember this:
The incident that set off the 1991 Crown Heights riots was easy to pinpoint: on Aug. 19, a car driven by a Hasidic Jew hit and killed a young black child. As a private ambulance took the driver away from the scene and emergency responders worked to free the victim and another child pinned under the car, the area’s black and Jewish residents–who had long been tense neighbors–erupted in anger. As TIME later noted, the result was the worst episode of racial violence in New York City city since 1968, after the death of Martin Luther King.
https://time.com/3989495/crown-heights-riots-time-magazine-history/
And what's racist about mentioning Willy Brandt KNEELING to commemorate and apologize for his nation's treatment of European Jews during the War?0 -
Yes, for the most part I agree but the authorities sanctioned this demonstration so the charge of irresponsibility should be laid at the door of whoever approved the rally - Sadiq Khan?Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.0 -
Yes, I didn’t think Starmer was great, but Johnson was ridiculous.DecrepiterJohnL said:
The Telegraph liked it too, or rather condemned Boris.CorrectHorseBattery said:Daily Mail praising Starmer's PMQ performance. What reality am I in?
At PMQs, the Prime Minister seemed increasingly affronted by Sir Keir Starmer’s habit of asking him difficult questions
...
Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.
His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/oppositions-job-question-criticise-has-boris-johnson-forgotten/0 -
Agreed, looting seems one of the crimes that is most likely to be prosecuted. Stealing from a shop or house outside a demonstration/riot is much safer!Northern_Al said:
You do write some nonsense - "unrestrained riots" and "the rioters did so with impunity". There were over 3,000 arrests during the 2011 riots - not an insignificant proportion of the rioters. Where's the impunity? I've no idea how many took part, but I'd guess around 10,000 and no more than 30,000.Luckyguy1983 said:
Under Theresa May's watch (as Home Secretary) we had unrestrained riots. The rioters did so with impunity. A martial arts expert wanted to come to the UK to train shopkeepers how to protect their premises - he was banned from travelling. We have a very sorry record in this country of protecting law breakers and harassing the law abiding. I hope these idiots have got it out of their system now. If they haven't, it's an opportunity to do things differently.Nigelb said:
Trying to break up the demonstration (or even, as @Luckyguy1983 seems to be suggesting, arrest several thousand people...) would not do anything to help that, and would in all likelihood make it worse.Ave_it said:
Ordinarily this demo wouldn't be a problem.Nigelb said:
Heavy handed policing would only exacerbate the problem, in all likelihood.Ave_it said:
The Metropolitan Police need to deal with this NOW.Andy_JS said:
They're not social distancing.HYUFD said:
To be fair most are wearing masks in the second videoeadric said:We are doomed. At least in America the rioters and protestors all wear masks
https://twitter.com/policehour/status/1268222247233376258?s=21
https://twitter.com/greenhalghsarah/status/1268222246323212289?s=21
It's an unlawful gathering and could undo all the progress that we have made against Covid 19.
As the Met Commissioner said this evening, it’s a matter of balancing risk.
But under the current environment these people are not only creating risk for themselves but also for many people likely to be of much greater risk of Covid 19.
The staff in ICUs in places like Northwick Park will not appreciate a return to conditions that they endured in April just because these people think they need to demonstrate now
About the only thing they could have done would have been to hand out free masks.0 -
That is a very accurate summary.DecrepiterJohnL said:
The Telegraph liked it too, or rather condemned Boris.CorrectHorseBattery said:Daily Mail praising Starmer's PMQ performance. What reality am I in?
At PMQs, the Prime Minister seemed increasingly affronted by Sir Keir Starmer’s habit of asking him difficult questions
...
Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.
His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/oppositions-job-question-criticise-has-boris-johnson-forgotten/0 -
It doesn't matter if it's illegal.state_go_away said:
The point is that irrespective is this is indeed a peaceful protest it is still illegal . You ignore thatstodge said:
"Harassing people for weeks" ? Come on - the situation at Easter was especially precarious - we were at the height of the outbreak. Even then, there were individuals who either didn't understand the rules or chose not to.Andy_JS said:
They've been harassing people for doing almost nothing for weeks and now they allow this sort of thing to happen. Disgraceful IMO.
"Allow this sort of thing to happen" - you mean, people exercising their right to peacefully protest. Perhaps you'd be happier if it was a pro-Government march (not that there would be many people on it). The organisers obtained a permit to hold the rally and the Police are ensuring any outbreaks of violence are contained which is how it should be.
Peaceful protests shouldn't be attacked whether they're legal or illegal. If you can simply make peaceful protests illegal that is very authoritarian.0 -
It was plod's feeble response to the initial trouble in 2011 which led it to go exponential.Black_Rook said:
True, but pestering sunbathers is unlikely to result in an outbreak of mass rioting, whereas trying to break up the demo very well might. The sort of violence we've seen in the States is contagious, and most serving Met officers will have the events of 2011 on their minds under these circumstances. Especially since you know full well that if they start making arrests a disproportionate number of those dragged off to the cells are bound to be black.Andy_JS said:
They've been harassing people for doing almost nothing for weeks and now they allow this sort of thing to happen. Disgraceful IMO.stodge said:
That's outrageous nonsense. What would you have the Police do? Water cannon - oh wait, didn't someone buy those once and then have to give them back?Andy_JS said:
They won't deal with it because being Woke is more important for them.
Rubber bullets, tear gas? Seriously?
And no, it's not fair, but neither is it particularly fair that the elderly and the shielders are being targeted for special distancing measures (i.e. being told to sit at home and rot more than everybody else.) Doesn't mean it's not the least damaging thing to do.
Whether they have the tactics right now we'll have to wait and see.0 -
We are talking about policing tactics not a legal point about social distancing. You were advocating the police getting "heavy". I was saying they (probably correctly) considered that getting "heavy" would have caused more harm than not. Nuts and sledgehammers and all that. Policing is a difficult job. The Met decided the risks of going in "heavy" outweiged the benefits of giving several thousand people spot fines for breaching the social distancing regs. If Derek Chauvin had decided not to go "heavy" on George Floyd after he allegedly tried to pay with a dodgy $20 then none of this would have happened. Thankfully our police have more sense than the idiots in certain US Police Depts.state_go_away said:
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one1 -
I'd agree with that too Stodge.stodge said:
Yes, for the most part I agree but the authorities sanctioned this demonstration so the charge of irresponsibility should be laid at the door of whoever approved the rally - Sadiq Khan?Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.
This tweet is either horrendously naive or irresponsible, or both.
https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/12681370614517309460 -
Snapchat says it has stopped promoting President Donald Trump's account.0
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A price almost worth paying.TheScreamingEagles said:
I will eat a pizza with pineapples on it if the GOP don't win Texas this November.Andrew said:Trump +1 on Biden!!!
....*small text* in Texas (Quinnipac)0 -
Pulpstar said:
Ramper alert lol
https://twitter.com/roger_scully/status/1268091058468110337
WELSH POLL KLAXON
Surely three or four threaders tomorrow will be devoted to this momentous event?
Social distancing ended down here in early April.rottenborough said:DMail has a photo of a police officer shaking hands with a protestor.
Social distancing London June 2020.0 -
"I told you! I told you! Snapchat is part of the LAMESTREAM MEDIA! Sad!"FrancisUrquhart said:Snapchat says it has stopped promoting President Donald Trump's account.
0 -
Plenty of other stupidity in London yesterday:Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.
A street party involving 500 revellers breaking lockdown rules in north-west London was broken up police in the early hours.
Videos on social media show hundreds of people gathering in Harlesden, despite Covid-19 social distancing rules.
The Met Police said five people had been arrested at the event involving 500 people on the Church Road Estate, which began on Tuesday night.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52902984
Six people have been arrested following a brawl involving hundreds of youths on London's Hampstead Heath.
Police were deployed to the park at about 18:30 BST on Tuesday to disperse the crowd.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-529029750 -
Looks like we are in for fairly shit weather for the next 10 days. I think that is rather helpful to situation.0
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I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.0 -
I agree, and it is wrong of me to imply that it will become one.Nigelb said:
This was not a riot.Luckyguy1983 said:
Under Theresa May's watch (as Home Secretary) we had unrestrained riots. The rioters did so with impunity. A martial arts expert wanted to come to the UK to train shopkeepers how to protect their premises - he was banned from travelling. We have a very sorry record in this country of protecting law breakers and harassing the law abiding. I hope these idiots have got it out of their system now. If they haven't, it's an opportunity to do things differently.Nigelb said:
Trying to break up the demonstration (or even, as @Luckyguy1983 seems to be suggesting, arrest several thousand people...) would not do anything to help that, and would in all likelihood make it worse.Ave_it said:
Ordinarily this demo wouldn't be a problem.Nigelb said:
Heavy handed policing would only exacerbate the problem, in all likelihood.Ave_it said:
The Metropolitan Police need to deal with this NOW.Andy_JS said:
They're not social distancing.HYUFD said:
To be fair most are wearing masks in the second videoeadric said:We are doomed. At least in America the rioters and protestors all wear masks
https://twitter.com/policehour/status/1268222247233376258?s=21
https://twitter.com/greenhalghsarah/status/1268222246323212289?s=21
It's an unlawful gathering and could undo all the progress that we have made against Covid 19.
As the Met Commissioner said this evening, it’s a matter of balancing risk.
But under the current environment these people are not only creating risk for themselves but also for many people likely to be of much greater risk of Covid 19.
The staff in ICUs in places like Northwick Park will not appreciate a return to conditions that they endured in April just because these people think they need to demonstrate now
About the only thing they could have done would have been to hand out free masks.1 -
So all of a sudden the letter of the law is no longer of paramount importance? Good to know.DougSeal said:
We are talking about policing tactics not a legal point about social distancing. You were advocating the police getting "heavy". I was saying they (probably correctly) considered that getting "heavy" would have caused more harm than not. Nuts and sledgehammers and all that. Policing is a difficult job. The Met decided the risks of going in "heavy" outweiged the benefits of giving several thousand people spot fines for breaching the social distancing regs. If Derek Chauvin had decided not to go "heavy" on George Floyd after he allegedly tried to pay with a dodgy $20 then none of this would have happened. Thankfully our police have more sense than the idiots in certain US Police Depts.state_go_away said:
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one0 -
-
Here's one opinion. No idea if it's representative of anyone or anything:Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
https://twitter.com/Neera_jah/status/12682360443333877772 -
Do not fear. Boris has set out his plans for an international Coronavirus vaccine alliance. He already has Bill Gates on board!TheScreamingEagles said:I said at the start of this pandemic, absent a vaccine, to survive this we're relying on the common sense of others.
So in reality, we're more fucked than a stepmom on pornhub.
As the UK did so well at managing the response to Covid-19, it is only fair, I guess, that Boris sets himself up as the World's leader in the vanguard of the international effort to discover a vaccine.0 -
I see twitter still not got the memo...no there wasn't another 359 deaths today and yes the numbers testing positive and dying has gone down.0
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In fairness, the mass disobedience of lockdown in the April warm spell here didn’t lead to a new spike, despite assurances that it would.Ave_it said:I bet the R in London is about 4 now! 😠
The dog that did not bark.0 -
A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.0
-
US defence secretary Mark Esper instructs an investigation into the use of military helicopters in the vicinity of protestors outside the White House...and within hours it turns out the order came from Trump. Trump loves doubling down but knows when not to, I think. We'll soon find out. Perhaps it's a good thing Esper hasn't resigned, because if he stays in the cabinet he can vote to invoke the 25th amendment.0
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Nah, the Plod only use water cannon, rubber bullets and tear gas against the predominantly white folks in NI.stodge said:
That's outrageous nonsense. What would you have the Police do? Water cannon - oh wait, didn't someone buy those once and then have to give them back?Andy_JS said:
They won't deal with it because being Woke is more important for them.
Rubber bullets, tear gas? Seriously?0 -
I hope Sadiq Khan hasn't made any pronouncements on Dominic Cummings driving somewhere.Pulpstar said:
I'd agree with that too Stodge.stodge said:
Yes, for the most part I agree but the authorities sanctioned this demonstration so the charge of irresponsibility should be laid at the door of whoever approved the rally - Sadiq Khan?Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.
This tweet is either horrendously naive or irresponsible, or both.
https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/12681370614517309462 -
Thanks.Richard_Nabavi said:
Here's one opinion. No idea if it's representative of anyone or anything:Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
https://twitter.com/Neera_jah/status/1268236044333387777
I've just seen so much grandstanding today (including at work) that it's made almost me puke. No, I didn't say anything - I'm not stupid.
What do people really think?
I'd probably only find out in private.3 -
...yet! Maybe.Anabobazina said:
In fairness, the mass disobedience of lockdown in the April warm spell here didn’t lead to a new spike, despite assurances that it would.Ave_it said:I bet the R in London is about 4 now! 😠
The dog that did not bark.0 -
More details here:FrancisUrquhart said:A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
https://t.co/jENxeATqgK0 -
Let's hope they make some progress with the case this time.FrancisUrquhart said:A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
1 -
I’d share my father’s thoughts but this is a family friendly website.Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
1 -
Sounds totally normal and not creepy at all.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.Richard_Nabavi said:
Here's one opinion. No idea if it's representative of anyone or anything:Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
https://twitter.com/Neera_jah/status/1268236044333387777
I've just seen so much grandstanding today (including at work) that it's made almost me puke. No, I didn't say anything - I'm not stupid.
What do people really think?
I'd probably only find out in private.0 -
As everyone from the PM down has agreed, policing pandemic restrictions can only work with the consent of the populace.BluestBlue said:
So all of a sudden the letter of the law is no longer of paramount importance? Good to know.DougSeal said:
We are talking about policing tactics not a legal point about social distancing. You were advocating the police getting "heavy". I was saying they (probably correctly) considered that getting "heavy" would have caused more harm than not. Nuts and sledgehammers and all that. Policing is a difficult job. The Met decided the risks of going in "heavy" outweiged the benefits of giving several thousand people spot fines for breaching the social distancing regs. If Derek Chauvin had decided not to go "heavy" on George Floyd after he allegedly tried to pay with a dodgy $20 then none of this would have happened. Thankfully our police have more sense than the idiots in certain US Police Depts.state_go_away said:
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one
An attempt to break up what was a large and overwhelmingly peaceful demonstration - to no actual benefit in terms of preventing infections - might have risked that consent (and would have required many more police attending).
They made the best they could of the situation.0 -
Constable rain is the best disperser of crowds with little trouble or complaint. Perhaps plod can simply read a weather forecast.DougSeal said:
We are talking about policing tactics not a legal point about social distancing. You were advocating the police getting "heavy". I was saying they (probably correctly) considered that getting "heavy" would have caused more harm than not. Nuts and sledgehammers and all that. Policing is a difficult job. The Met decided the risks of going in "heavy" outweiged the benefits of giving several thousand people spot fines for breaching the social distancing regs. If Derek Chauvin had decided not to go "heavy" on George Floyd after he allegedly tried to pay with a dodgy $20 then none of this would have happened. Thankfully our police have more sense than the idiots in certain US Police Depts.state_go_away said:
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one1 -
Er, hang on! Who says it was a deliberate act of murder?brokenwheel said:
Someone mentions they are a jew and the first thing you do is post an article about a jew murdering a black person and you don't understand how that is a teeny bit racist?Sunil_Prasannan said:
What's racist about linking to a Time article about a riot in NYC in 1991?brokenwheel said:
Well Sunil said this immediately after learning i'm Jewish, I'll let you read between the lines.eristdoof said:
Somebody got called an anti-semite and racist on this forum yesterday for mentioning this.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Willy Brandt knelt in Warsaw:brokenwheel said:
I guess the kneeling didn't work.Scott_xP said:
"Unter der Last der jüngsten Geschichte tat ich, was Menschen tun, wenn die Worte versagen. So gedachte ich Millionen Ermordeter."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kniefall_von_Warschau
https://politicalbetting.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/comment/2888009#Comment_2888009
If people wish to virtue-signal about racism I'm more than happy to point out their own.
For clarity, what I wrote was:
@brokenwheel is probably old enough to remember this:
The incident that set off the 1991 Crown Heights riots was easy to pinpoint: on Aug. 19, a car driven by a Hasidic Jew hit and killed a young black child. As a private ambulance took the driver away from the scene and emergency responders worked to free the victim and another child pinned under the car, the area’s black and Jewish residents–who had long been tense neighbors–erupted in anger. As TIME later noted, the result was the worst episode of racial violence in New York City city since 1968, after the death of Martin Luther King.
https://time.com/3989495/crown-heights-riots-time-magazine-history/
And what's racist about mentioning Willy Brandt KNEELING to commemorate and apologize for his nation's treatment of European Jews during the War?
BTW: “Whoever saves one life saves the world entire.” - the Talmud, as quoted in Schindler's List.0 -
As was widely said at the time of his election bid, he has been lucky in never really having been properly held to account during his career to date. By now he surely thinks he should be above such troublesome responsibility.Pulpstar said:
I was surprised so many people here thought Boris had "won".CatMan said:
Is this the start of the right wing press turning against Boris?DecrepiterJohnL said:
The Telegraph liked it too, or rather condemned Boris.CorrectHorseBattery said:Daily Mail praising Starmer's PMQ performance. What reality am I in?
At PMQs, the Prime Minister seemed increasingly affronted by Sir Keir Starmer’s habit of asking him difficult questions
...
Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.
His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/06/03/oppositions-job-question-criticise-has-boris-johnson-forgotten/0 -
It's not a bad system, as electoral systems go, but it has been heavily distorted so that it currently favors the Republican candidate. That can of course swing round violently. If Texas were to go blue, for example, it would suddenly no longer matter if Florida stayed red.Anabobazina said:
That still wouldn't make the system work properly though, just skewed in the opposite direction. They need to rethink the whole think and correlate EC votes more closely with population. At the moment that would help the Democrats enormously, so don't hold your breath.0 -
Don't the Germans prefer to keep their prisoners in... you know... prison?FrancisUrquhart said:A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
0 -
That's a huge dead cat for Bozo to chuck on the table this evening. Was his performance at PMQs really so bad?FrancisUrquhart said:A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
This, so far, has been the case. The incredibly warm and sunny weather through much of April and May has encouraged people outdoors and, thank goodness, the transmission of the virus outdoors is rare.Anabobazina said:
In fairness, the mass disobedience of lockdown in the April warm spell here didn’t lead to a new spike, despite assurances that it would.Ave_it said:I bet the R in London is about 4 now! 😠
The dog that did not bark.
I suspect one of the reasons it spread so widely was, mild weather notwithstanding, most people spend most of their time indoors in winter.
I feel fairly safe outdoors - yes, social distancing but I'm less concerned by those who don't or can't.
The Prime Minister has rightly identified the risk of gatherings moving indoors this weekend as the weather deteriorates - we'll see.0 -
Nature's rather gentle carpet bombing.Foxy said:
Constable rain is the best disperser of crowds with little trouble or complaint. Perhaps plod can simply read a weather forecast.DougSeal said:
We are talking about policing tactics not a legal point about social distancing. You were advocating the police getting "heavy". I was saying they (probably correctly) considered that getting "heavy" would have caused more harm than not. Nuts and sledgehammers and all that. Policing is a difficult job. The Met decided the risks of going in "heavy" outweiged the benefits of giving several thousand people spot fines for breaching the social distancing regs. If Derek Chauvin had decided not to go "heavy" on George Floyd after he allegedly tried to pay with a dodgy $20 then none of this would have happened. Thankfully our police have more sense than the idiots in certain US Police Depts.state_go_away said:
Don't start off being rude like that. The law on social distancing does not state that exceptions are made for worthy causes. Now that would be idioticDougSeal said:
That is the most idiotic thing I have read on here for a while. There were, according to reports, about 50 people at the Piers Corbyn demo. Today's gathered several thousands amongst a febrile atmosphere created by the horrific murder of a black man by another police force in a country with which we have strong legal, cultural linguistic and historic ties. In that country protests have, in many cases as a result of heavy handed policing, resulted in riots. Furthermore a report came out yesterday that detailed the disparity in effect that Covid-19 is having on minority communities (yes - I know we don't know why but that is of scant comfort to those in those communities who will have their own views - just like everyone on here will). In those circumstances, may be, just may be, that the Metropolitan Police, with everything else going on, don't want a riot.state_go_away said:
Personally I am not that fussed about having social distancing laws but whilst we have them you would expect the police to not encourage it (lawbreaking) wouldn't you? Apparently being woke and virtue signalling gets you off social distancing seems to be the message. The police got handy breaking up Piers Corbyn's lot but as far as I can see the only difference is one is a woke demo and the other a non-woke one
I wonder if a sort of 'area water cannon' has been tried for when nature isn't helping out?0 -
No he was masterful. Or so the PB Tory fanboys were saying at lunchtime...SandyRentool said:
That's a huge dead cat for Bozo to chuck on the table this evening. Was his performance at PMQs really so bad?FrancisUrquhart said:A 43-year-old German prisoner who travelled around Portugal in a camper van is now the focus of Scotland Yard's investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann.
0 -
The impact of peaceful protest, lighting a candle or taking the knee, has so much more powerful an impact. Why do these numpties never seem to grasp that?Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.
The problem is that any demo attracts a group of arseholes simply out to cause trouble and a spot of looting if the occasion arises. I doubt some of them even know what they are supposed to be protesting about.0 -
Is that what you believe or what you would like to be the case? Why does it matter?Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.0 -
Is that you, Donald?eadric said:Ok, enough
Start shooting
twitter.com/dehennadavison/status/1268248395224842253?s=210 -
Neither. I suspect I'm not getting the full picture and I want to know how different my private view is to theirs, and what the deviation is.stodge said:
Is that what you believe or what you would like to be the case? Why does it matter?Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.0 -
My latest calculation of R is up to last Thusday the 28th based on reported cases.Ave_it said:I bet the R in London is about 4 now! 😠
England 0.61 (-0.03)
London 0.58 (+0.01)
Richmond had its first case yesterday in the last eight days.
The impact of today won't be seen until about June 10th.
0 -
Why is that creepy?brokenwheel said:
Sounds totally normal and not creepy at all.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.Richard_Nabavi said:
Here's one opinion. No idea if it's representative of anyone or anything:Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
https://twitter.com/Neera_jah/status/1268236044333387777
I've just seen so much grandstanding today (including at work) that it's made almost me puke. No, I didn't say anything - I'm not stupid.
What do people really think?
I'd probably only find out in private.
On a highly emotional issue like this you'd only pick up the nuances in private 1:1 discussions.0 -
They shouldn't be protesting, except perhaps outside the American Embassy. This has absolutely nothing to do with us.OllyT said:
The impact of peaceful protest, lighting a candle or taking the knee, has so much more powerful an impact. Why do these numpties never seem to grasp that?Pulpstar said:To be clear, I think everyone at the protest today is being desperately irresponsible and frankly shouldn't be out in a mass gathering in the middle of a pandemic no matter the cause. Light a candle or take a knee and post it to instagram from your home or some such.
But the police are in a no win situation here, Riot police aren't needed till it turns into an actual riot- if they're used whilst it's still a protest it'll provoke a riot. Some protesters who got violent have been rightfully arrested.
The problem is that any demo attracts a group of arseholes simply out to cause trouble and a spot of looting if the occasion arises. I doubt some of them even know what they are supposed to be protesting about.1 -
I meant the "No, I didn't say anything - I'm not stupid." part.Casino_Royale said:
Why is that creepy?brokenwheel said:
Sounds totally normal and not creepy at all.Casino_Royale said:
Thanks.Richard_Nabavi said:
Here's one opinion. No idea if it's representative of anyone or anything:Casino_Royale said:I'd like to talk to a genuinely broad range of UK BAME people about these protests, of all ages and backgrounds.
I don't know but I suspect their opinions on it would be somewhat more diverse than how the media and protestors are representing it.
https://twitter.com/Neera_jah/status/1268236044333387777
I've just seen so much grandstanding today (including at work) that it's made almost me puke. No, I didn't say anything - I'm not stupid.
What do people really think?
I'd probably only find out in private.
On a highly emotional issue like this you'd only pick up the nuances in private 1:1 discussions.0 -
Just make it one person, one equal vote.Peter_the_Punter said:
It's not a bad system, as electoral systems go, but it has been heavily distorted so that it currently favors the Republican candidate. That can of course swing round violently. If Texas were to go blue, for example, it would suddenly no longer matter if Florida stayed red.Anabobazina said:
That still wouldn't make the system work properly though, just skewed in the opposite direction. They need to rethink the whole think and correlate EC votes more closely with population. At the moment that would help the Democrats enormously, so don't hold your breath.
You could do a run off a la France if you like.0 -
I am sure that you didn't condemn Dominic Cummings for driving somewhere, did you?stodge said:
"Harassing people for weeks" ? Come on - the situation at Easter was especially precarious - we were at the height of the outbreak. Even then, there were individuals who either didn't understand the rules or chose not to.Andy_JS said:
They've been harassing people for doing almost nothing for weeks and now they allow this sort of thing to happen. Disgraceful IMO.
"Allow this sort of thing to happen" - you mean, people exercising their right to peacefully protest. Perhaps you'd be happier if it was a pro-Government march (not that there would be many people on it). The organisers obtained a permit to hold the rally and the Police are ensuring any outbreaks of violence are contained which is how it should be.0
