politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Holyrood 2021: The election that could kill the Union stone de
Comments
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The difference is whether people share a common identity with each other.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Using the logic that we were all the same meant we should have just stayed within the EU - we all had a vote.Theuniondivvie said:
Look, a few hundred million EU citizens are waving at you.Casino_Royale said:
You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.malcolmg said:
I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
There's just fewer of you, that's all.
Except with the EU being a democracy the Eurozone could always outvote the UK.
With the UK being a democracy England can always outvote Scotland.
I'd rather give up Scotland than democracy.
Umm.. that's it.1 -
That can only go so far when we share a currency, surely. England transfers to the others as it is.Socky said:
One answer is proper local democracy (and taxation) throughout the UK.malcolmg said:I have no say in how my country is run, it is all decided in England for England's benefit as you would expect with circa 90% of the population.
I have always seen Brexit (and Scottish/Welsh devolution) as part of a longer process; taking power away from Westminster is next.
Will English taxpayers pay for policies that largely go against the government they voted for? German taxpayers don't. There's a stability pact and you toe the line, sunshine
Maybe the UK should have its own sterling stability pact in return for ceding power.0 -
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.0 -
That may even be the intention. Just let the public calculate the risk for themselves and hope that, in broad-brush terms, the more vulnerable they feel the more likely they will be to self-segregate.Casino_Royale said:
This is what everyone wants to know.SandyRentool said:
In the absence of knowing they may just do it anyway and the Government will then catch up.
Chuck in the continuation of the 2m rule and WFH and then see how things go. It feels rather like a halfway house between the more severe lockdown regimes like Italy, and the Swedish approach.2 -
Yeah, maybe.Black_Rook said:
That may even be the intention. Just let the public calculate the risk for themselves and hope that, in broad-brush terms, the more vulnerable they feel the more likely they will be to self-segregate.Casino_Royale said:
This is what everyone wants to know.SandyRentool said:
In the absence of knowing they may just do it anyway and the Government will then catch up.
Chuck in the continuation of the 2m rule and WFH and then see how things go. It feels rather like a halfway house between the more severe lockdown regimes like Italy, and the Swedish approach.0 -
Plenty of reports around of cabinet discontentment.MarqueeMark said:
Stop wondering. He won't.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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One interesting point is that the Tweeter is actually a medical consultant who has been on the media.DavidL said:
I don’t think that they are cumulative. They are for the 7 day period only and comparing countries that have different levels of infection , different periods of lockdown, different intensity of lockdown and which are at different points on the curve. In short, a total waste of time.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, those looks like deaths per 10,000.NickPalmer said:0 -
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?
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The argument has barely begun yet so I would'n be quite so complacent if I were you.HYUFD said:OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Except it is not, bar the Tories declining to 'just' 49%
https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1259216403116298240?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1259212991624622084?s=201 -
Anonymously briefing their fury to the press? Their courage is breathtaking.rottenborough said:1 -
Mind you, Boris has been quite helpfully digging the escape tunnel for her since Wednesday.williamglenn said:Nicola Sturgeon is now divisively repeating the UK government’s slogan. She’s clearly obsessed with independence.
https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1259432190368190465?s=210 -
His current draft provide very limited opportunities for well paid side gigs and adultery. Both of these restrictions must be to his immense displeasure so I could actually see him jacking in at some point. He wanted to become PM more than he wanted to be PM. Particularly during a pandemic which he's fucking up and a concomitant economic depression which he will also doubtlessly fuck up.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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Indeed. And its quite clear that only some do.Casino_Royale said:
The difference is whether people share a common identity with each other.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Using the logic that we were all the same meant we should have just stayed within the EU - we all had a vote.Theuniondivvie said:
Look, a few hundred million EU citizens are waving at you.Casino_Royale said:
You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.malcolmg said:
I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.Casino_Royale said:
.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
There's just fewer of you, that's all.
Except with the EU being a democracy the Eurozone could always outvote the UK.
With the UK being a democracy England can always outvote Scotland.
I'd rather give up Scotland than democracy.
Umm.. that's it.0 -
Politically it's what people believe that matters. I also do not believe comparisons are completely fatuous, some countries have clearly handled this better than others.FrancisUrquhart said:Professor Spiegelhalter "Completely Fatuous Exercise" to Compare Who’s the Worst in Europe
https://youtu.be/g1ElO6ybqv0
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When summer turns to autumn and the horrendous economic conditions become apparent, I really wouldn't want to be JohnsonStocky said:
I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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Reports that Italy are under reported deaths by 50%OllyT said:
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.
It is no means certain who has the highest european death toll and we are not even half way through this
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Yes, after the event the gap could increase or narrow. On present evidence I am betting on the latter.isam said:
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?0 -
What matters is the economic conditions next year and the year after more. One way or another we'll have herd immunity by then.contrarian said:
When summer turns to autumn and the horrendous economic conditions become apparent, I really wouldn't want to be JohnsonStocky said:
I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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A fallout with Sunak on economics is a possibility. Sunak is presumably going to go heavy on austerity 2.0 which Johnson apparently despises.Dura_Ace said:
His current draft provide very limited opportunities for well paid side gigs and adultery. Both of these restrictions must be to his immense displeasure so I could actually see him jacking in at some point. He wanted to become PM more than he wanted to be PM. Particularly during a pandemic which he's fucking up and a concomitant economic depression which he will also doubtlessly fuck up.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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The new slogan from Boris is shite1
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Memories, memories!squareroot2 said:
Anywhere?Theuniondivvie said:
No tongues I think.SandyRentool said:0 -
I predict that Sunak resigns over no-deal brexit.contrarian said:
When summer turns to autumn and the horrendous economic conditions become apparent, I really wouldn't want to be JohnsonStocky said:
I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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There is a vast bloc of the electorate, state workers, pensioners, who appear to feel immune to wider economic conditions. Adding a disruptive final leaving of the EU arrangements would be suboptimal for many but again there is a bedrock of the electorate who think they will suffer no adverse consequences.contrarian said:
When summer turns to autumn and the horrendous economic conditions become apparent, I really wouldn't want to be JohnsonStocky said:
I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
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Not pointless. The polls are telling us something. It's just not clear what.isam said:
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?0 -
The Government seems to think we'll just bounce back, I think that's moronic personally.1
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That is based on what I have and based on what polling shows the public would supportClippP said:
Has that come in an official statement yet? Or is it just your best guess, HY? Or do you have inside information?HYUFD said:
To have largely ended lockdown by the end of June bar mass gatherings, festivals and big sporting events but with testing and tracing greatly expanded by thenClippP said:
Interesting figures, HY. So what is government policy now?HYUFD said:Just 12% want the lockdown ended now or next week but just 24% want the lockdown to continue beyond July too.
648% want the lockdown ended by the end of the month, 68% want the lockdown ended by the end of June
https://twitter.com/DavidWooding/status/1259406036202655745?s=201 -
What do you expect from this shower of 'Z' listers?AlastairMeeks said:
Anonymously briefing their fury to the press? Their courage is breathtaking.rottenborough said:0 -
The BoE's projection of a mighty crash this year followed by a major recovery next year is entirely plausible.CorrectHorseBattery said:The Government seems to think we'll just bounce back, I think that's moronic personally.
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Moronic?CorrectHorseBattery said:The Government seems to think we'll just bounce back, I think that's moronic personally.
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Hasn't the argument been raging 24/7 in every conceivable medium for the past two months? What sort of "argument" do you want?OllyT said:
The argument has barely begun yet so I would'n be quite so complacent if I were you.HYUFD said:OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Except it is not, bar the Tories declining to 'just' 49%
https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1259216403116298240?s=20
https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1259212991624622084?s=200 -
When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.0
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Fair point. I find that upsetting one way, and others do the other.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. And its quite clear that only some do.Casino_Royale said:
The difference is whether people share a common identity with each other.Philip_Thompson said:
Indeed. Using the logic that we were all the same meant we should have just stayed within the EU - we all had a vote.Theuniondivvie said:
Look, a few hundred million EU citizens are waving at you.Casino_Royale said:
You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.malcolmg said:
I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.Casino_Royale said:
.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
There's just fewer of you, that's all.
Except with the EU being a democracy the Eurozone could always outvote the UK.
With the UK being a democracy England can always outvote Scotland.
I'd rather give up Scotland than democracy.
Umm.. that's it.
It's an emotional thing, as we know.-1 -
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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Boris is the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, they would be as mad to get rid of him as Labour were to replace Blair with Brown in 2007.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
Labour have not won a general election since and the Tories won only one majority in 25 years after they ousted Thatcher (and Major was Thatcher's preferred pick to replace her over Heseltine)1 -
It has been widely reported this week that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe but of course that could change but I think it unlikely as our numbers are pretty much the highest in Europe every day now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Reports that Italy are under reported deaths by 50%OllyT said:
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.
It is no means certain who has the highest european death toll and we are not even half way through this
Thing is when you have start arguing that other countries are lying about their stats then you are on the back foot.
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It's also entirely plausible we'll end up in a prolonged depression. I hope for all our sakes, you're right and I'm wrong.Philip_Thompson said:
The BoE's projection of a mighty crash this year followed by a major recovery next year is entirely plausible.CorrectHorseBattery said:The Government seems to think we'll just bounce back, I think that's moronic personally.
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As an idea, perhaps each level of government should only be able to tax the one below? The national UK government could raise the funds it needs for national tasks (e.g. the military) and for re-distribution by taxing the local government.contrarian said:That [local taxes] can only go so far when we share a currency, surely. England transfers to the others as it is.
In the end, voters should get the policies they are prepared to pay for.contrarian said:Will English taxpayers pay for policies that largely go against the government they voted for?
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Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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The government clearly doesn't agree.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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Presumably the reason for the new slogan is to have something, anything to justify tonight's Big Speech.
We all (including Boris) would have been better off if he hadn't planned to do it at all, wouldn't we?0 -
I hope for all our sakes they're right - I'm not making any predictions.CorrectHorseBattery said:
It's also entirely plausible we'll end up in a prolonged depression. I hope for all our sakes, you're right and I'm wrong.Philip_Thompson said:
The BoE's projection of a mighty crash this year followed by a major recovery next year is entirely plausible.CorrectHorseBattery said:The Government seems to think we'll just bounce back, I think that's moronic personally.
Both scenarios are plausible.0 -
I think BJ and his merry men (& women) could learn a lesson in brevity and direct, understandable messaging from you.nunu2 said:The new slogan from Boris is shite
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Yep, I agree with this. The Tories are very dependent on Johnson. If they getr rid of him, or he walks, it will change everything very quickly. I doubt they are that stupid, for now anyway, though it is clear that both Sajid and Hunt are on manouevres to establish themselves as the "told you so" candidiates.HYUFD said:
Boris is the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, they would be as mad to get rid of him as Labour were to replace Blair with Brown in 2007.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
Labour have not won a general election since and the Tories won only one majority in 25 years after they ousted Thatcher (and Major was Thatcher's preferred pick to replace her over Heseltine)
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What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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Sturgeon has been the effective UK LotO since Corbyn got in to Labour, and certainly since the referendum.0
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Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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My father and pretty much all of his colleagues think the new slogan is a bag of shite and will undo all the hard work so far.
I think a few hospitals and health professionals will go rogue and will stick with the stay at home messaging.1 -
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I'm not sure Johnson or Sunak will get that far.rottenborough said:
I predict that Sunak resigns over no-deal brexit.contrarian said:
When summer turns to autumn and the horrendous economic conditions become apparent, I really wouldn't want to be JohnsonStocky said:
I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
What Johnson has stopped, he will find inordinately difficult to start again.
Watch the howls when Sunak cuts subsidies from 80 to 60. Never mind zero. The libs already want more extensions. Bet labour follows. The government is throwing money around like confetti, after all, what's a few more billion?
Unions are already using COVID as a bargaining tool. How can the government not agree to their terms given the propaganda message they have been churning out over the last few weeks that COVID is the plague?
The distancing rules the government will have to impose as a logical extension of the their policy will work massively against an economic recovery. Look at how the airline industry is taking the new quarantine proposals.
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A slogan targeted solely at you is perhaps not the most effective of slogans...Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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You're just as partisan as me.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
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Skid marks; burn marks....Theuniondivvie said:Who's doing the marking?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1259450328048709633?s=200 -
Stay alert literally means look out for the virus. But Trump already pointed out that not only is it hidden, but it's very smart. I think Trump has the best of it here.1
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The problem with "stay alert" is it means different things to different people.EPG said:Stay alert literally means look out for the virus. But Trump already pointed out that not only is it hidden, but it's very smart. I think Trump has the best of it here.
0 -
To be fair, replacing an instruction for the nation to sit on its fat arse all the time with a gentle encouragement to sit on its fat arse only about three-quarters of the time (and please get out a bit more, because we'll probably ask you to only sit on your fat arses half the time next month,) was always going to be something of a challenge.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
2 -
I recognised that when I said I don't know. .CorrectHorseBattery said:
You're just as partisan as me.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
0 -
No marks..Nigelb said:
Skid marks; burn marks....Theuniondivvie said:Who's doing the marking?
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1259450328048709633?s=200 -
Good to hear. Well done you.Philip_Thompson said:
I recognised that when I said I don't know. .CorrectHorseBattery said:
You're just as partisan as me.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
0 -
Do we have a list of those people to hand?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
1 -
“Stay alert by limiting contact with people...”williamglenn said:
Eh ?
One might stay alert in order to limit contact with people - but one stays alert by ... drinking coffee, for example.1 -
Stay alert by minimising your risk.Nigelb said:
“Stay alert by limiting contact with people...”williamglenn said:
Eh ?
One might stay alert in order to limit contact with people - but one stays alert by ... drinking coffee, for example.0 -
The only one of those were alert makes any sense whatsoever is keeping 2m away from each other when out.williamglenn said:
How is staying at home related to being alert in any way?
Stay safe was a much better choice to soften it from stay home.
0 -
I don't think its targeted at me, just because I'm clever enough to understand what a very basic two word phrase means. I mean I am homeschooling a 3 year old and 6 year old so maybe I'm better than others at comprehending what two whole words mean . . .Nigelb said:
A slogan targeted solely at you is perhaps not the most effective of slogans...Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
0 -
Has does 'stay at home' help those of us who have to go to work ?TheScreamingEagles said:My father and pretty much all of his colleagues think the new slogan is a bag of shite and will undo all the hard work so far.
I think a few hospitals and health professionals will go rogue and will stick with the stay at home messaging.0 -
This alert business is maybe the consequence of having emergency and crisis management disciplines focussed on counter-terrorism for the last two decades. The whole point is that you can't act as if you can see the one bad guy and avoid him. You have to assume everyone has it and take the appropriate level of risk - which may well be much more tolerant of risk than a lockdown.0
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I think I read that France and now the UK are the only countries that count deaths outside of hospitals such as in care homes.OllyT said:
It has been widely reported this week that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe but of course that could change but I think it unlikely as our numbers are pretty much the highest in Europe every day now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Reports that Italy are under reported deaths by 50%OllyT said:
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.
It is no means certain who has the highest european death toll and we are not even half way through this
Thing is when you have start arguing that other countries are lying about their stats then you are on the back foot.
Also to compare properly you have to look at deaths per million of population, ignoring microstates such as Andorra or Liechtenstein. Using this comparison Belgium, at present has the highest death rate in Europe.
But another thing you should do is wait until the epidemic subsides, because we may eventually be overtaken by countries where the death rate is increasing or being maintained whilst ours is slowing down.
When it's all over, statisticians might well find that there were several first world counties that had a worse epidemic than we did.0 -
If I was labour now I would be taking up the cause of furloughed workers and campaigning to keep them as as furloughed as possible for as long as possible.
Taxpayers will be up in arms of course, but the plain fact is there aren't that many of them left.0 -
To an extent. Though it is required to convey a more complex message which has more potential interpretations thatn the initial one. Not everything can be easily covered by 2-3 words. What's important is that the explanation be clear so that every public body can work together to dispel any potential for confusion.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
1 -
Well the evidence of the last 5 years shows the Tory party is completely mad.HYUFD said:
Boris is the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, they would be as mad to get rid of him as Labour were to replace Blair with Brown in 2007.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
Labour have not won a general election since and the Tories won only one majority in 25 years after they ousted Thatcher (and Major was Thatcher's preferred pick to replace her over Heseltine)1 -
Perhaps. It seems like it will be close at best.DeClare said:
When it's all over, statisticians might well find that there were several first world counties that had a worse epidemic than we did.OllyT said:
It has been widely reported this week that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe but of course that could change but I think it unlikely as our numbers are pretty much the highest in Europe every day now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Reports that Italy are under reported deaths by 50%OllyT said:
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.
It is no means certain who has the highest european death toll and we are not even half way through this
Thing is when you have start arguing that other countries are lying about their stats then you are on the back foot.
0 -
That the government has (for whatever reasons) a large reservoir of goodwill, and that, for now, no one really wants to contemplate the next election ?AlastairMeeks said:
Not pointless. The polls are telling us something. It's just not clear what.isam said:
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?
It tells us very little about how politics might look in a year’s time, let alone four.3 -
Because of the reason you're staying at home.noneoftheabove said:
The only one of those were alert makes any sense whatsoever is keeping 2m away from each other when out.williamglenn said:
How is staying at home related to being alert in any way?
Stay safe was a much better choice to soften it from stay home.0 -
Michael Gove can advise on other techniques for staying alert.Nigelb said:
“Stay alert by limiting contact with people...”williamglenn said:
Eh ?
One might stay alert in order to limit contact with people - but one stays alert by ... drinking coffee, for example.0 -
Short list of countries where the virus is a left/right issue: UK, USA, Brazil, Spain. The left wants free money forever, the right wants workers to take a risk. Anyone who can add to this list is welcome, especially examples where it goes in the opposite direction!0
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Easy to say such things. But you were not there having to.make any eecisions. The zTories have seen.the nadt Labour Party since 2010... something to be very pleased about.noneoftheabove said:
Well the evidence of the last 5 years shows the Tory party is completely mad.HYUFD said:
Boris is the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, they would be as mad to get rid of him as Labour were to replace Blair with Brown in 2007.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
Labour have not won a general election since and the Tories won only one majority in 25 years after they ousted Thatcher (and Major was Thatcher's preferred pick to replace her over Heseltine)0 -
Im not being alert, I may be dozy or even asleep I just havent gone through the front door!Philip_Thompson said:
Because of the reason you're staying at home.noneoftheabove said:
The only one of those were alert makes any sense whatsoever is keeping 2m away from each other when out.williamglenn said:
How is staying at home related to being alert in any way?
Stay safe was a much better choice to soften it from stay home.
Stay safe is clearly better suited to all five statements in the tweet, what on earth was wrong with that?0 -
Iii
My guess would be that people nowadays might prefer a politician to be a celebrity as well as run the country.AlastairMeeks said:
Not pointless. The polls are telling us something. It's just not clear what.isam said:
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?
Blair, Cameron, Farage, Jezza and Boris all have that. Brown, May, Farron, Ed and Starmer don't0 -
The demographic that, like PT, would march into a burning building to save a photograph of Johnson must be quite small.Nigelb said:
A slogan targeted solely at you is perhaps not the most effective of slogans...Philip_Thompson said:
I don't know. But the phrase is self-explanatory to me.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes - and what do they think?Philip_Thompson said:
What matters is what people who aren't partisan think.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Not surprising Tories like it and non-Tories hate it.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think you need to explain it to anyone who isn't being deliberately obtuse.SouthamObserver said:When you have to explain a slogan it's not a very good slogan.
0 -
Its based on people who think that Boris / Conservatives / this government is 'on their side'.Nigelb said:
That the government has (for whatever reasons) a large reservoir of goodwill, and that, for now, no one really wants to contemplate the next election ?AlastairMeeks said:
Not pointless. The polls are telling us something. It's just not clear what.isam said:
Quite amazing that Johnson beats Starmer by almost 30 points on who the public prefer to be in charge of handling a disease that so many have died from & that he caught, and almost killed him!AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Shows how pointless the polls are doesn't it?
It tells us very little about how politics might look in a year’s time, let alone four.
They may not think they are any good but at least they are not actively malign.0 -
I think the list is problematic as to the extent it is a left/right issue may differ, in terms of mainstream left/right.EPG said:Short list of countries where the virus is a left/right issue: UK, USA, Brazil, Spain. The left wants free money forever, the right wants workers to take a risk. Anyone who can add to this list is welcome, especially examples where it goes in the opposite direction!
0 -
This a far better slogan. Cuts across young and old and even Warzone kids will appreciate it.
1 -
Shit slogan that's going to cause confusion and an increase in the infection rate. You can't stay alert to something you can't see. It's as simple as that.0
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And what about those of us unable to go out. Do we also lose our Moth du Jour?MarqueeMark said:Anyway, as Boris will effectively allow us all out to go and explore our local nature reserves as of this week, I will wind up the Moth du Jour feature that has otherwise kept you all sane and civilised. Good luck to any who have been inspired to get a moth trap and have a go themselves.
Moth du Jour: Swallow-tailed Moth Ourapteryx sambucaria
A moth of warm summer evenings, when it can appear in numbers. Beautiful when freshly emerged, they do have a tendency to get a bit tatty. So enjoy this pristine, fresh out the box example. Moth du Jour signing off....until the second wave.
0 -
The furlough is very pro-business and is a striking success story. The government did exactly the right thing and deserves praise for it. Those who have been furloughed did not ask to be and now have to live withthe worry of not knowing whether they have jobs to go back to. The biggest disaster of all would be to end it and then have to go back into full lockdown because the numbers have spiked again.contrarian said:If I was labour now I would be taking up the cause of furloughed workers and campaigning to keep them as as furloughed as possible for as long as possible.
Taxpayers will be up in arms of course, but the plain fact is there aren't that many of them left.
2 -
Quite hard to write such things?squareroot2 said:
Easy to say such things. But you were not there having to.make any eecisions. The zTories have seen.the nadt Labour Party since 2010... something to be very pleased about.noneoftheabove said:
Well the evidence of the last 5 years shows the Tory party is completely mad.HYUFD said:
Boris is the best Tory election winner since Thatcher, they would be as mad to get rid of him as Labour were to replace Blair with Brown in 2007.CorrectHorseBattery said:Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024
Labour have not won a general election since and the Tories won only one majority in 25 years after they ousted Thatcher (and Major was Thatcher's preferred pick to replace her over Heseltine)0 -
Belgium, though, includes all deaths where there were possible coronavirus symptoms present, and therefore has the highest percentage in Europe for coronavirus deaths as a percentage of ‘excess deaths’. Something like 90% as opposed to our 70%.DeClare said:
I think I read that France and now the UK are the only countries that count deaths outside of hospitals such as in care homes.OllyT said:
It has been widely reported this week that we have the highest number of deaths in Europe but of course that could change but I think it unlikely as our numbers are pretty much the highest in Europe every day now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Reports that Italy are under reported deaths by 50%OllyT said:
The slogan on the bus worked pretty well for the Brexiteers.Philip_Thompson said:
So what matters is if a lie takes hold?OllyT said:
Not true but DYOR.HYUFD said:
By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.
Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK
Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.
If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.
Anyway, we do have the most deaths in Europe, you can argue that that there are other measures but it is not a lie.
It is no means certain who has the highest european death toll and we are not even half way through this
Thing is when you have start arguing that other countries are lying about their stats then you are on the back foot.
Also to compare properly you have to look at deaths per million of population, ignoring microstates such as Andorra or Liechtenstein. Using this comparison Belgium, at present has the highest death rate in Europe.
But another thing you should do is wait until the epidemic subsides, because we may eventually be overtaken by countries where the death rate is increasing or being maintained whilst ours is slowing down.
When it's all over, statisticians might well find that there were several first world counties that had a worse epidemic than we did.
So, no, it’s not just France and the UK.0 -
Do the Germans have a furlough scheme?
Its just that the anti-lockdown protests I have seen there look pretty big even before the scheisse has hit the whatever the German word for 'fan' is.
When people find out what the real situation is, sheeesh.0 -
You stay safe by staying alert.noneoftheabove said:
Im not being alert, I may be dozy or even asleep I just havent gone through the front door!Philip_Thompson said:
Because of the reason you're staying at home.noneoftheabove said:
The only one of those were alert makes any sense whatsoever is keeping 2m away from each other when out.williamglenn said:
How is staying at home related to being alert in any way?
Stay safe was a much better choice to soften it from stay home.
Stay safe is clearly better suited to all five statements in the tweet, what on earth was wrong with that?
So perhaps "Stay alert, keep safe" would be the precise meaning.0 -
JohnLilburne said:
They want us to go out. But carefully.Pulpstar said:Stay home was fine. Everyone knows there are reasonable exceptions, why change it ?
All of my friends who have gone to work throughout this, including a cleaning friend have been very supportive of the stay home message actually I've found.another_richard said:
'Stay at home' isn't so good for those of us who have to go to work.NickPalmer said:
Big_G: the public have shown that they're really good at following clear advice. Stay at home? OK, we'll stay at home. They are understandably less good at following fuzzy advice, and "Stay alert" could mean almost anything It worries me in a non-partisan sense that Boris's natural atyle is to emphasise stirring rhetoric and uplifting banter rather than boring precision. Perhaps he'll surprise me, though.Big_G_NorthWales said:The posts on here are entirely predictable
However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative
Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others
Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra
Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject
Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from
I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19
I agree about the advantage of being late to the party so we can see how others are getting on. But we need to use that advatange to clear good effect.
Whereas staying alert is relevant advice when it comes to keeping distance from other people and touching things.0 -
Perhaps you could take over with a Lakeland moth report ?Cyclefree said:
And what about those of us unable to go out. Do we also lose our Moth du Jour?MarqueeMark said:Anyway, as Boris will effectively allow us all out to go and explore our local nature reserves as of this week, I will wind up the Moth du Jour feature that has otherwise kept you all sane and civilised. Good luck to any who have been inspired to get a moth trap and have a go themselves.
Moth du Jour: Swallow-tailed Moth Ourapteryx sambucaria
A moth of warm summer evenings, when it can appear in numbers. Beautiful when freshly emerged, they do have a tendency to get a bit tatty. So enjoy this pristine, fresh out the box example. Moth du Jour signing off....until the second wave.0 -
Guernsey, 10 days without a new case, 12 active cases remaining. ANY new arrivals have had to self quarantine for 14 days since March 19th.0
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But you do see people and things they may have touched.MaxPB said:Shit slogan that's going to cause confusion and an increase in the infection rate. You can't stay alert to something you can't see. It's as simple as that.
And its those that infect you.1 -
Yes they do.contrarian said:Do the Germans have a furlough scheme?
Its just that the anti-lockdown protests I have seen there look pretty big even before the scheisse has hit the whatever the German word for 'fan' is.
When people find out what the real situation is, sheeesh.0 -
Of course you can.RobD said:
Can't you be alert to the risks of something?MaxPB said:Shit slogan that's going to cause confusion and an increase in the infection rate. You can't stay alert to something you can't see. It's as simple as that.
If I'm driving I try to be alert to the risks. If I approach a roundabout at high speed I slow down to see if there's an oncoming vehicle coming from the right. I'm alert precisely because I CAN'T SEE what's oncoming yet.0
