People are now on a blame-game bandwagon. The slogan is fine for the next phase of getting us out of lockdown.
I don't think the slogan is great, but we are definitely back to the media doing their "but we are so confused" routine.
Please help us all out.
Give us instructions, say a working person (some on here have small children so let's include them) on how to conduct yourself next week staying alert.
TIA.
No slogan is supposed to give you the full list of rules and regulations. "Stay Home", didn't even mean stay home, it meant you can go out to work in certain sectors, you could go out for food / medicines / by a pot plant and for exercise.
The over emphasis on a few words is just way over the top.
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.
The UK is almost unique in failing to record the number of recovered so any chart of active cases can only go down if people die. Its absurd and I don't understand why we do not record this information which is surely essential if we need to know how close to herd immunity we are getting.
Presumably because we don't have the foggiest how many have recovered as they'll be recovering at home and not reporting that?
If we need to know how close to herd immunity we are we need to know how many people have actually had it - not how many of those who've said they had it since say they don't anymore.
Unless there is a colossal iceberg effect we're nowhere near herd immunity. About 6 out of 500ish of my friends and colleagues I know have had it, which would equate to around a half million cases. The true number is probably higher, but even if it is 4 or 5 million then you've got 60+ million with no immunity.
Herd immunity doesn't require 100% nor is it 'all or nothing', if even 5 million have it then we are approaching 10% with immunity and that would have a meaningful impact on reducing R.
That's not what "herd immunity" means, though.
It means when you reach the critical point the herd as a whole is immune in the sense that small outbreaks will die out. It doesn't mean some animals are immune so that outbreaks grow more slowly.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
This discussion shows why a federal UK is the only way forward. In America, you can be from Illinois or Wyoming, and be American. And proud of your city and county (e pluribus unum, etc.). In Germany, you can be a Saxon or Hamburger and still be German. There are fairly clearly demarcated lines between the two, and though there are often tensions, there are clear mechanisms for resolving those tensions (Supreme Court in the US, the Constitutional Court in Germany, etc.).
But because we have been fudging the questions of the difference between Englishness and Britishness since Blair gave Scotland its Parliament, it's a constant tension here, and there is no clear way to resolve it.
How can you have a federal UK when one part of it is almost 90%. They have had lots of chances but will only give up the powers when they are taken away from them. Blair did not give us our parliament , the people voted for it , we are not dogs begging for a treat.
Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
I think the media are the obsessing
Same request to you please. "Stay Alert" is the new phase behavioural advice. Please let us know what it means exactly. Stay at Home I get. This, less so.
Off the top of my head ...
Stay distanced, don't cough into the air, wash your hands etc ... Be alert to the dangers and lessons we have learnt in recent months.
That's the point - it's a phrase which requires additional explanation. That's not a bad thing, not every message can be encapsulated within a few works, but it does mean everyone needs to know what is meant by it. Otherwise different places will give different interpretations. We all remember the police and their creative interpretation of the law based on ministerial and their own guidance.
Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
I think the media are the obsessing
Same request to you please. "Stay Alert" is the new phase behavioural advice. Please let us know what it means exactly. Stay at Home I get. This, less so.
Off the top of my head ...
Stay distanced, don't cough into the air, wash your hands etc ... Be alert to the dangers and lessons we have learnt in recent months.
So this is just assuming we weren't staying alert while staying at home and now we should stay alert while staying at home? That it?
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.
The UK is almost unique in failing to record the number of recovered so any chart of active cases can only go down if people die. Its absurd and I don't understand why we do not record this information which is surely essential if we need to know how close to herd immunity we are getting.
Presumably because we don't have the foggiest how many have recovered as they'll be recovering at home and not reporting that?
If we need to know how close to herd immunity we are we need to know how many people have actually had it - not how many of those who've said they had it since say they don't anymore.
Unless there is a colossal iceberg effect we're nowhere near herd immunity. About 6 out of 500ish of my friends and colleagues I know have had it, which would equate to around a half million cases. The true number is probably higher, but even if it is 4 or 5 million then you've got 60+ million with no immunity.
Herd immunity doesn't require 100% nor is it 'all or nothing', if even 5 million have it then we are approaching 10% with immunity and that would have a meaningful impact on reducing R.
10% with immunity doesn't have much effect ont he transmission rate of the virus.
Why not? That's 10% fewer people able to get it, able to spread it etc - and these changes compound as we know which is why the effort to reduce R in the first place. Plus if Edmond is right (and it is logical) that the first 10% are more likely to be exposed and thus spreaders it would be even more.
So how much will 'R' be reduced if only 90% of the population are available to be infected? From 2.5 to 2.1? It will still be exponential.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Not amongst all of us it isn't.
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
I see your tourettes has returned.
You think you can just divide the nation in two, impose the most extreme version of your preferred outcome riding roughshod over your opponents without wrecking any sense of common purpose? I realised that Leavers were fantasists but we’re now approaching fairytales.
Non-sequitur of the month, ladies & gentlemen.
It's kind of cute though. These sort of arguments almost feel nostalgic now.
I'm off for a walk with my family. Have a great day x
You think your aggressive support of a highly divisive campaign that gets steadily more extreme has no connection with a common sense of identity?
For their next trick, Leavers will repeal the law of gravity.
You aren't exactly winning the argument, are you?
I’m not exactly expecting those who revelled in imposing their extremist fantasy borne of race-baiting to accept that their collective actions might have affected something they wish was otherwise, no matter how obvious the point is.
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
Well the journalists after 8 weeks still don't know what the daily death numbers mean and Faisal Islam seems to think the use of red graphics is all due to the EU (and clearly that we had blue traffic lights for stop or something pre-EU).
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?
Well, knock me down with a feather.
That new message is absolute puerile crap, typical PR buzzwords that have no significance to the task at hand and change background to green from red so that everything seems rosy in the garden. Pathetic powderpuff PR for morons.
This is also crap. It is not a “system to track the virus”.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52602635 ...A Covid-19 alert system is set to be launched by the government in England to track the virus, the prime minister is expected to announce on Sunday. The system will rank the threat level from coronavirus on a scale of one to five and be adjusted according to data. Boris Johnson is due to update the UK on the progress of lockdown measures in a televised address at 19:00 BST. The PM is expected to unveil a new slogan, telling the public to "stay alert, control the virus, save lives".
He is not expected to provide exact dates for when the restrictions - first announced on 23 March - might change. The new system will apply to England only but the government is working with the devolved administrations as they develop their own. It is understood the system - with alerts ranging from green (level one) to red (level five) - will be similar to the one used to keep the public informed about the terror threat level...
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
I feel European and I have been stripped of my citizenship!
Hmm. Stripped of something that means very little.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
“Stay alert” is a bit fatuous. It’s hardly the biggest problem right now though.
"Watch out" would be better I think. Or "Keep watch" or something. One syllable words are much better in slogans than two syllable ones.
"Careful now"
The Govt. should have gone for knowing humour with the Virus. Would have got much more respect all round if Boris had stood outside Downing Street with a carboard sign reading "Down with this sort of thing".
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).
I’d say 90% is a high enough figure to give some credence to.
Read the article, and I still can't really see where the "90%" came from, unless they have misreported the numbers as well as the categories.
"90" doesn't even occur in the text of the article.
Guardian quality misleading headline.
7% don’t know. Just 4% want Boris Johnson to start ending the lockdown today. Allowing for rounding, that leaves 9 out of 10 who want him to stay his hand today.
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
I think that's an unfair interpretation of at least some of the concerns. Everyone knows generally what alert means, but if you are a local authority telling people to be alert and someone comes to them and says does that mean I can do X or Y, there will be a grey area where maybe the answer is yes, no or 'if you do it in an alert way' even. They have provided some narrative with the slogan it seems, and that being necessary doesn't make the slogan horrible, but people asking for absolute clarity when the slogan is necessarily not as clear as the last one, is reasonable.
Slightly flippantly it could be compared to 'please drive carefully' signs you see in many villages, and the old joke that those mean you should drive at 90mph since you need to be very careful when driving at that speed.
I remember the media wanking themselves cross eyed over take back control and get brexit done slogans being unclear, untrue, stupid, etc.
Quite!
Stay Alert is fine. Does the job.
Stay alert is excellent advice for my daily walk to the fish and chip shop as pedestrians are in constant danger from the growing army of electric scooters; sod all help with the virus though.
It's sound advice for the virus. If you're out of the home more you need to be alert to the dangers more. Failing to social distance while out of the home could be more of a risk than an electric scooter.
Electric scooters are near-silent and move from pavement to road and back again every hundred yards or so. They are a menace, although some, it is said, are delivering essential drugs to key workers. Getting back to the slogan, if Stay Alert means Keep Apart, it should say that, or Wear A Mask, or whatever else #ClassicDom has gleaned from his SAGE meeting. As I said, it would not be surprising to see a different slogan unveiled tonight because this one is both vacuous and fatuous.
Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
I think the media are the obsessing
Same request to you please. "Stay Alert" is the new phase behavioural advice. Please let us know what it means exactly. Stay at Home I get. This, less so.
Off the top of my head ...
Stay distanced, don't cough into the air, wash your hands etc ... Be alert to the dangers and lessons we have learnt in recent months.
So this is just assuming we weren't staying alert while staying at home and now we should stay alert while staying at home? That it?
Sadly I think so long as people are being paid 80% of their salaries to sit on their bums, support for the lockdown, aka paid holiday, will continue.
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
What you are missing is that the government evidently thinks we are stupid because if all that is changing is that we now have to be alert doing all the things we were doing previously then the govt didn't think we were being so before = think we are stupid.
And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.
The UK is almost unique in failing to record the number of recovered so any chart of active cases can only go down if people die. Its absurd and I don't understand why we do not record this information which is surely essential if we need to know how close to herd immunity we are getting.
Presumably because we don't have the foggiest how many have recovered as they'll be recovering at home and not reporting that?
If we need to know how close to herd immunity we are we need to know how many people have actually had it - not how many of those who've said they had it since say they don't anymore.
Unless there is a colossal iceberg effect we're nowhere near herd immunity. About 6 out of 500ish of my friends and colleagues I know have had it, which would equate to around a half million cases. The true number is probably higher, but even if it is 4 or 5 million then you've got 60+ million with no immunity.
Herd immunity doesn't require 100% nor is it 'all or nothing', if even 5 million have it then we are approaching 10% with immunity and that would have a meaningful impact on reducing R.
10% with immunity doesn't have much effect ont he transmission rate of the virus.
Why not? That's 10% fewer people able to get it, able to spread it etc - and these changes compound as we know which is why the effort to reduce R in the first place. Plus if Edmond is right (and it is logical) that the first 10% are more likely to be exposed and thus spreaders it would be even more.
So how much will 'R' be reduced if only 90% of the population are available to be infected? From 2.5 to 2.1? It will still be exponential.
2.5 seems awfully high with hand washing and social distancing etc
If 10% immunity takes us from R of 1.1 to R of 0.8 then that's a world of difference.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
David, we only have one choice, get rid of the dead hand of Westminster, run our own affairs and not have to put up with idiots like Carlaw. We would then have real Scottish politicians implementing real Scottish policies, not the shitshow we currently have.
Anyway, as Boris will effectively allow us all out to go and explore our local nature reserves as of this week, I will wind up the Moth du Jour feature that has otherwise kept you all sane and civilised. Good luck to any who have been inspired to get a moth trap and have a go themselves.
Moth du Jour: Swallow-tailed Moth Ourapteryx sambucaria
A moth of warm summer evenings, when it can appear in numbers. Beautiful when freshly emerged, they do have a tendency to get a bit tatty. So enjoy this pristine, fresh out the box example. Moth du Jour signing off....until the second wave.
Mark, many thanks for your series, been fascinating for me at least. I look forward to the next series.
Thanks malcy. In the hope that there isn't a need for a second series, I'll drop in the odd delight I come across from time to time. There's some great moths only found in Scotland which I'd love to go and photograph, although I might have trouble explaining to Plod that the purpose of my journey was essential!
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
This discussion shows why a federal UK is the only way forward. In America, you can be from Illinois or Wyoming, and be American. And proud of your city and county (e pluribus unum, etc.). In Germany, you can be a Saxon or Hamburger and still be German. There are fairly clearly demarcated lines between the two, and though there are often tensions, there are clear mechanisms for resolving those tensions (Supreme Court in the US, the Constitutional Court in Germany, etc.).
But because we have been fudging the questions of the difference between Englishness and Britishness since Blair gave Scotland its Parliament, it's a constant tension here, and there is no clear way to resolve it.
How can you have a federal UK when one part of it is almost 90%. They have had lots of chances but will only give up the powers when they are taken away from them. Blair did not give us our parliament , the people voted for it , we are not dogs begging for a treat.
Why *can't* you? Devolving home rule to England (and the other 4 countries on an equal basis) means England cannot influence Scottish home affairs. The UK then only deals with matters common to all four countries.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).
I’d say 90% is a high enough figure to give some credence to.
Read the article, and I still can't really see where the "90%" came from, unless they have misreported the numbers as well as the categories.
"90" doesn't even occur in the text of the article.
Guardian quality misleading headline.
7% don’t know. Just 4% want Boris Johnson to start ending the lockdown today. Allowing for rounding, that leaves 9 out of 10 who want him to stay his hand today.
"ending the lockdown today" is not on the cards is it - it`s not the same as easing the lockdown incrementally. But, that aside, these polls are worthless because the die is loaded by the furlough scheme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
What you are missing is that the government evidently thinks we are stupid because if all that is changing is that we now have to be alert doing all the things we were doing previously then the govt didn't think we were being so before = think we are stupid.
And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.
No.
If the message goes from Stay Home to Stay Alert then by definition the government thought we already where alert (hence Stay) but now away from home more if need be.
How do you Stay Alert if you were never alert in the first place?
BoZo needs to rewrite his speech to explain why the slogan in England is different from Scotland and Wales, and why it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means...
Scotland is being decisive while England is faffing around it's plausible we end up with Scotland in a green zone and England in a yellow zone, with a defacto land border between them.
I'm not really sure what this does to the cause of independence.
Ofcourse Scotlands results will be better quicker. Much less densely populated and no real large ethnic minority populations.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
I remember the media wanking themselves cross eyed over take back control and get brexit done slogans being unclear, untrue, stupid, etc.
Quite!
Stay Alert is fine. Does the job.
Stay alert is excellent advice for my daily walk to the fish and chip shop as pedestrians are in constant danger from the growing army of electric scooters; sod all help with the virus though.
It's sound advice for the virus. If you're out of the home more you need to be alert to the dangers more. Failing to social distance while out of the home could be more of a risk than an electric scooter.
Electric scooters are near-silent and move from pavement to road and back again every hundred yards or so. They are a menace, although some, it is said, are delivering essential drugs to key workers. Getting back to the slogan, if Stay Alert means Keep Apart, it should say that, or Wear A Mask, or whatever else #ClassicDom has gleaned from his SAGE meeting. As I said, it would not be surprising to see a different slogan unveiled tonight because this one is both vacuous and fatuous.
Stay Alert means everything. It means half a dozen or more things we have learnt. Its not one action it is all of them.
What kind of mantra would be: Socially distance, wash your hands, cover your mouth etc etc etc that's not a simple phrase.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Perhaps Mr Swedish Witty is right and that basically over the next 2 years everybody is going to be exposed to this.
Without a vaccine, that is possible. What S Korea has shown is that you can carry on operating large parts of the economy and keep things under control. And some particularly risky bits you simply can’t. The absolute numbers in S Korea remain very low, though.
We don't measure "total cases". We simply do not know how many have been infected. The Covid Symptom Tracker people reckon 245,000 have it at the moment, down from a peak of 2 million on 1 April. https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
We don't measure "total cases". We simply do not know how many have been infected. The Covid Symptom Tracker people reckon 245,000 have it at the moment, down from a peak of 2 million on 1 April. https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
BoZo needs to rewrite his speech to explain why the slogan in England is different from Scotland and Wales, and why it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means...
That's simple. Scotland is a foreign country in this regard and has its own strategy. We should no more have the same slogan with them as we would have the same as the French. People don't get devolution, do they? The whole point us to allow different countries do things differently. Instead we get finger-pointing and demands to be the same.
Someone on here who actually gets it and does see Scotland as a colony that should just do as it is told by its Lords and Masters.
Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.
Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.
Ironically the uselessness of the Government means that the elections (Scottish and otherwise) slated for next May could well go ahead. If the disease runs rampant through the population then it could be over (herd immunity achieved at the cost of massive loss of life) before then. But we're all guessing on this one, aren't we?
Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.
Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.
Ironically the uselessness of the Government means that the elections (Scottish and otherwise) slated for next May could well go ahead. If the disease runs rampant through the population then it could be over (herd immunity achieved at the cost of massive loss of life) before then. But we're all guessing on this one, aren't we?
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.
While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.
So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
What you are missing is that the government evidently thinks we are stupid because if all that is changing is that we now have to be alert doing all the things we were doing previously then the govt didn't think we were being so before = think we are stupid.
And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.
No.
If the message goes from Stay Home to Stay Alert then by definition the government thought we already where alert (hence Stay) but now away from home more if need be.
How do you Stay Alert if you were never alert in the first place?
Please read that back to yourself and try to make head or tail of it. That depends what the meaning of is is, right? I fear you're having another blind spot here.
They thought we were being alert but sometimes not always. eg they thought we were stupid.
BoZo needs to rewrite his speech to explain why the slogan in England is different from Scotland and Wales, and why it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means...
Scotland is being decisive while England is faffing around it's plausible we end up with Scotland in a green zone and England in a yellow zone, with a defacto land border between them.
I'm not really sure what this does to the cause of independence.
Ofcourse Scotlands results will be better quicker. Much less densely populated and no real large ethnic minority populations.
Apart from “Plastic Irish”
Scotland still testing at a low level - hasn’t increased test levels since early April.
Given her record, not understanding the meaning of the word 'alert' comes as no surprise.
What is wrong with her record pray tell, I think she has done not too badly. Scottish NHS has beaten its English equivalent on all measurements for years now.
However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative
Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others
Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra
Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject
Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from
I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.
While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.
So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election
You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.
Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.
On what measure worse?
Sky show a chart of hospital admissions (I think) as a percentage of the peak and Scotland is still quite high compared with England.
Presumably this is why Sturgeon is worried.
The question that no one is asking is, what’s the plan? That Sun poll has a quarter of people wanting lockdown to continue until the virus is eradicated.
Scotland is 2-3 weeks behind England on the Corona curve, I think that's neither here nor there when it comes to elections next year.
I’m not sure you can be behind when lockdown happened at the same time (and peaks happened at the same time).
Anyway, I wouldn’t bet on English elections either for the same reason.
Not too bright are you, it started earlier in London and only took off in Scotland weeks afterwards, so as any dummy would know our peak is well behind London and anyone with brains looking at the numbers will see this very plainly. Thinking UK = England is not bright.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
Philip will still insist they made 100K even if they send them to US, what useless pillocks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it until way too late.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Now, I fear that the new arrivals plan is really substandard, so all these sacrifices people are making will be in vain if we just keep importing new cases as we try and move out of a lockdown.
Well, time for a nice cycle ride, and hoping the next week does not go terribly.
Things I've learned today - questioning someone's tone is the worst thing that can be done in the whole wide world and ok to make false statements about in response, and its wrong to note that an ambigious word is ambiguous.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
David, we only have one choice, get rid of the dead hand of Westminster, run our own affairs and not have to put up with idiots like Carlaw. We would then have real Scottish politicians implementing real Scottish policies, not the shitshow we currently have.
So your solution to stop Sturgeon's landgrab for power over the areas Scotland has control is to give her absolute power over everything.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
The slogan is part of the government's strategy to minimise loss of life. It *is* their strategy. Given that if you think the media is stupid wait until you work out how clever the public is. They need clarity.
Stay at Home was perfectly clear to the point that people weren't sure if they should go out even for legitimate reasons.
You and others are saying the slogan is a diversion. It is central. If it is designed to get people into the habit of being super careful because when we are allowed out then the danger is that people will be put off before that moment arrives.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
KLE, well said , and I apologise for being wrong about your opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Fair enough. The level of discussion both in the media and from government has been disappointing.
The question from the public thing was an interesting idea until it became clear that the ones selected were pretty softball. I’ve given up listening to the daily briefings, as it’s just feeble questions and feeble spin, with very little new information.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.
While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.
So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election
You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said
People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.
Note that these figures are cases not deaths. Not sure about the others, but our testing numbers might be part of the story.
Yes the medics warned that the massive increase in testing would produce an apparent increase in cases. What I am still looking for, however, is an analysis of where this 5k cases a day are coming from. Without this I am not sure how to avoid being a dickhead.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
KLE, well said , and I apologise for being wrong about your opinion.
I dare say we've all mistaken the views of another at some point. Thank you. I hope I would apologise likewise when I am mistaken.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
The slogan is part of the government's strategy to minimise loss of life. It *is* their strategy. Given that if you think the media is stupid wait until you work out how clever the public is. They need clarity.
Stay at Home was perfectly clear to the point that people weren't sure if they should go out even for legitimate reasons.
You and others are saying the slogan is a diversion. It is central. If it is designed to get people into the habit of being super careful because when we are allowed out then the danger is that people will be put off before that moment arrives.
I actually have more faith in the public. While the media were asking if freelance journalists will be chased by the rozzers, just how far can I drive for a walk, and can my daughter have play dates, the vast majority of the public understood and obeyed the rules without needing their hands holding. And those that were caught, appeared to know they were breaking the rules, e.g. driving 300 miles for a walk is just bollocks.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it until way too late.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Now, I fear that the new arrivals plan is really substandard, so all these sacrifices people are making will be in vain if we just keep importing new cases as we try and move out of a lockdown.
I don't think it's fair to blame the media for government mistakes such as the app. The blame lies with the government.
BoZo needs to rewrite his speech to explain why the slogan in England is different from Scotland and Wales, and why it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means...
Scotland is being decisive while England is faffing around it's plausible we end up with Scotland in a green zone and England in a yellow zone, with a defacto land border between them.
I'm not really sure what this does to the cause of independence.
Ofcourse Scotlands results will be better quicker. Much less densely populated and no real large ethnic minority populations.
Apart from “Plastic Irish”
Scotland still testing at a low level - hasn’t increased test levels since early April.
England don't either , they send them to the USA to test. Take your foot out of your moth now and again Harry, cut out some of the whoppers and take the boulder off each shoulder.
They could make banners saying "Down with that sort of thing" with arrows on and people would stand 2 meters from people who were acting inappropriately and point at them. The British would love it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Fair enough. The level of discussion both in the media and from government has been disappointing.
The question from the public thing was an interesting idea until it became clear that the ones selected were pretty softball. I’ve given up listening to the daily briefings, as it’s just feeble questions and feeble spin, with very little new information.
I don't think the daily briefings are helpful now. There just isn't enough new information. And if you are going to do them, I have said from the start, rotate the egg-heads and politicians and get specialist journalists to ask the questions e.g. get the techy journalists to do a briefing about the app, science correspondence with Witty / Vallance over vaccine, drug trials and testing.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.
You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
KLE, well said , and I apologise for being wrong about your opinion.
It’s pretty well mine, too. I do wonder if there would be slightly less desire for independence if we English did not treat Scotland with quite so much condescension.
BoZo needs to rewrite his speech to explain why the slogan in England is different from Scotland and Wales, and why it doesn't mean what everyone thinks it means...
Scotland is being decisive while England is faffing around it's plausible we end up with Scotland in a green zone and England in a yellow zone, with a defacto land border between them.
I'm not really sure what this does to the cause of independence.
Ofcourse Scotlands results will be better quicker. Much less densely populated and no real large ethnic minority populations.
Apart from “Plastic Irish”
Scotland still testing at a low level - hasn’t increased test levels since early April.
England don't either , they send them to the USA to test. Take your foot out of your moth now and again Harry, cut out some of the whoppers and take the boulder off each shoulder.
I'm yet to see @MarqueeMark post a photo of that moth.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Fair enough. The level of discussion both in the media and from government has been disappointing.
The question from the public thing was an interesting idea until it became clear that the ones selected were pretty softball. I’ve given up listening to the daily briefings, as it’s just feeble questions and feeble spin, with very little new information.
I don't think the daily briefings are helpful now. There just isn't enough new information. And if you are going to do them, I have said from the start, rotate the egg-heads and politicians and get specialist journalists to ask the questions e.g. get the techy journalists to do a briefing about the app, science correspondence with Witty / Vallance over vaccine, drug trials and testing.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566 ...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs. The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems". The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said. Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....
Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.
And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately. If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity. And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.
This is why the 100k target and the media obsession with if it 95k or 105k, it is just dumb. We need prioritized testing and results within 24hrs for at worst, high priority cases.
I agree. But it’s a government obsession as much as a media one, and that matters far more. As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
No, I said from the start the target was stupid and wrong. Same with the choices made for the app.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
Most of which were covered in the Observer column I linked to.
That's fine. I was talking to Topping about for instance the daily press conferences and as a whole.
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it until way too late.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Now, I fear that the new arrivals plan is really substandard, so all these sacrifices people are making will be in vain if we just keep importing new cases as we try and move out of a lockdown.
I don't think it's fair to blame the media for government mistakes such as the app. The blame lies with the government.
Which is what I said. However, I am saying the media are doing a piss poor job of understanding the facts and asking pertinent questions.
Its worse than that, they are actually spreading misinformation on a daily basis.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
This discussion shows why a federal UK is the only way forward. In America, you can be from Illinois or Wyoming, and be American. And proud of your city and county (e pluribus unum, etc.). In Germany, you can be a Saxon or Hamburger and still be German. There are fairly clearly demarcated lines between the two, and though there are often tensions, there are clear mechanisms for resolving those tensions (Supreme Court in the US, the Constitutional Court in Germany, etc.).
But because we have been fudging the questions of the difference between Englishness and Britishness since Blair gave Scotland its Parliament, it's a constant tension here, and there is no clear way to resolve it.
How can you have a federal UK when one part of it is almost 90%. They have had lots of chances but will only give up the powers when they are taken away from them. Blair did not give us our parliament , the people voted for it , we are not dogs begging for a treat.
Why *can't* you? Devolving home rule to England (and the other 4 countries on an equal basis) means England cannot influence Scottish home affairs. The UK then only deals with matters common to all four countries.
WE have heard it all before and as long as England decide what the budgets are for everyone then you have no real devolved powers and they are not ever going to give them up.
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.
Good man. I feel the same way.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.
Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.
No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.
While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.
So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election
You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said
People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.
You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.
You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice
I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it
However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
David, we only have one choice, get rid of the dead hand of Westminster, run our own affairs and not have to put up with idiots like Carlaw. We would then have real Scottish politicians implementing real Scottish policies, not the shitshow we currently have.
And where are these competent politicians going to come from Malcolm? Because Sturgeon apart there’s damn few in the SNP and hardly any anywhere else.
However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative
Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others
Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra
Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject
Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from
I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19
Big_G: the public have shown that they're really good at following clear advice. Stay at home? OK, we'll stay at home. They are understandably less good at following fuzzy advice, and "Stay alert" could mean almost anything It worries me in a non-partisan sense that Boris's natural atyle is to emphasise stirring rhetoric and uplifting banter rather than boring precision. Perhaps he'll surprise me, though.
I agree about the advantage of being late to the party so we can see how others are getting on. But we need to use that advatange to clear good effect.
If in the end most of us are going to be infected as the Swedish epidemiologists say, our job is to manage that within the capacity of the healthcare system. Then it seems to me we are on the right track. We surely don't want the time charts of new cases to look like steep mountains, but rather a gentle slope down or a plateau beneath the healthcare capacity. The up-down mountain scenario will be a series of peaks, each one threatening the healthcare capacity, but the area under those curves will be roughly the same no matter what. So isn't it better to manage the infections down slowly by gradual policy adjustments?
I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
What you are missing is that the government evidently thinks we are stupid because if all that is changing is that we now have to be alert doing all the things we were doing previously then the govt didn't think we were being so before = think we are stupid.
And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.
No.
If the message goes from Stay Home to Stay Alert then by definition the government thought we already where alert (hence Stay) but now away from home more if need be.
How do you Stay Alert if you were never alert in the first place?
Please read that back to yourself and try to make head or tail of it. That depends what the meaning of is is, right? I fear you're having another blind spot here.
They thought we were being alert but sometimes not always. eg they thought we were stupid.
No its really simple.
They thought we were being alert but at home. The message being home.
We're dropping the home element but need to keep being alert, hence stay alert.
Stay - adv. - to continue doing something, to continue being in a particular state.
Its not rocket science you're being deliberately thick as I don't believe you're that thick for real.
Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.
Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.
On what measure worse?
Sky show a chart of hospital admissions (I think) as a percentage of the peak and Scotland is still quite high compared with England.
Presumably this is why Sturgeon is worried.
The question that no one is asking is, what’s the plan? That Sun poll has a quarter of people wanting lockdown to continue until the virus is eradicated.
Scotland is 2-3 weeks behind England on the Corona curve, I think that's neither here nor there when it comes to elections next year.
I’m not sure you can be behind when lockdown happened at the same time (and peaks happened at the same time).
Anyway, I wouldn’t bet on English elections either for the same reason.
The lockdowns are acts of human agency, the virus will behave on its own terms. If England and Scotland are at the same point in the progress of the virus, on the bare figures the situation appears less brutal up here (and that's an observation not a jingoistic boast).
Comments
The over emphasis on a few words is just way over the top.
I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.
"90" doesn't even occur in the text of the article.
Guardian quality misleading headline.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52602635
...A Covid-19 alert system is set to be launched by the government in England to track the virus, the prime minister is expected to announce on Sunday.
The system will rank the threat level from coronavirus on a scale of one to five and be adjusted according to data.
Boris Johnson is due to update the UK on the progress of lockdown measures in a televised address at 19:00 BST.
The PM is expected to unveil a new slogan, telling the public to "stay alert, control the virus, save lives".
He is not expected to provide exact dates for when the restrictions - first announced on 23 March - might change.
The new system will apply to England only but the government is working with the devolved administrations as they develop their own.
It is understood the system - with alerts ranging from green (level one) to red (level five) - will be similar to the one used to keep the public informed about the terror threat level...
Slightly flippantly it could be compared to 'please drive carefully' signs you see in many villages, and the old joke that those mean you should drive at 90mph since you need to be very careful when driving at that speed.
Go to work, pay taxes, save the economy.
And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.
I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.
If 10% immunity takes us from R of 1.1 to R of 0.8 then that's a world of difference.
We would then have real Scottish politicians implementing real Scottish policies, not the shitshow we currently have.
Perhaps Mr Swedish Witty is right and that basically over the next 2 years everybody is going to be exposed to this.
As I said, I see no evidence of systematic thinking about the purpose and use of testing; it’s as though the numbers have become an end in themselves.
And some in ‘the media’ seem to get that point.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/10/the-observer-view-on-the-governments-lack-of-a-proper-lockdown-plan
If the message goes from Stay Home to Stay Alert then by definition the government thought we already where alert (hence Stay) but now away from home more if need be.
How do you Stay Alert if you were never alert in the first place?
"Stay alert for pillocks".
@FrancisUrquhart seems to want to let the govt do and say anything without scrutiny. Unless the entire media is changed for one as perceptive as he and others on PB believe themselves to be.
What kind of mantra would be: Socially distance, wash your hands, cover your mouth etc etc etc that's not a simple phrase.
My issue with the media is they are also stupid and wrong. That is the frustration. They aren't scrutinising properly, they are getting basic facts wrong, time and time again. 600 people dead yesterday being the claim yet again by major news anchors, no, wrong, just f##king wrong, 3 months into this and still just flat our wrong.
Now they are going to wank themselves cross eyed over a slogan, rather than challenging the government on some really key issues moving forward.
How long until we actually get this app now that it seems clear they will have the pivot?
How will this isolation system actually work for new arrivals, is it really the best way of doing it? What about testing at airports? Or requirements to have an "immunity passport"?
So many important questions.
Perhaps if the media had really pushed on the app 3 weeks ago like I was saying at the time, then the minister might have been challenged enough we wouldn't have gone down the stupid route.
What S Korea has shown is that you can carry on operating large parts of the economy and keep things under control. And some particularly risky bits you simply can’t. The absolute numbers in S Korea remain very low, though.
While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.
So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election
They thought we were being alert but sometimes not always. eg they thought we were stupid.
Scotland still testing at a low level - hasn’t increased test levels since early April.
However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative
Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others
Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra
Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject
Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from
I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19
Does that mean cocaine can be legalised ? Asking for a good friend.
https://twitter.com/shelaghfogarty/status/1259373708344528897?s=21
Mr Meeks asked the other week what would I ask and I specifically mentioned the app, and Mr Meeks said that too detailed nobody cares about that at home. Well they will do when we are locked down for an month because we have chosen the wrong path. Now that is still Hancock's fault, but the media didn't scrutinise it until way too late.
Its like the reporting on the ventilators. The best article was the BBC F1 correspondent, great one good article, while the main press pack got basic stuff confused about who was making what.
Now, I fear that the new arrivals plan is really substandard, so all these sacrifices people are making will be in vain if we just keep importing new cases as we try and move out of a lockdown.
Should be 'here ARE the slogans'...
Things I've learned today - questioning someone's tone is the worst thing that can be done in the whole wide world and ok to make false statements about in response, and its wrong to note that an ambigious word is ambiguous.
It's a view point
Stay at Home was perfectly clear to the point that people weren't sure if they should go out even for legitimate reasons.
You and others are saying the slogan is a diversion. It is central. If it is designed to get people into the habit of being super careful because when we are allowed out then the danger is that people will be put off before that moment arrives.
https://www.dw.com/en/germany-thousands-of-protesters-slam-isolation-measures/a-53382891
The question from the public thing was an interesting idea until it became clear that the ones selected were pretty softball. I’ve given up listening to the daily briefings, as it’s just feeble questions and feeble spin, with very little new information.
Red Alert
Shields Up
Ready photon torpedoes
?
https://twitter.com/JonesTheBosher/status/1259373302289772545?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1259373302289772545&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-to-announce-covid-19-alert-system
There's just fewer of you, that's all.
I do wonder if there would be slightly less desire for independence if we English did not treat Scotland with quite so much condescension.
Sounds fucking massive.
Its worse than that, they are actually spreading misinformation on a daily basis.
You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice
I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it
However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see
Better than the loathsome Americanism Stay Home.
Good riddance.
Even using binoculars.
Am I doing it wrong?
I agree about the advantage of being late to the party so we can see how others are getting on. But we need to use that advatange to clear good effect.
They thought we were being alert but at home. The message being home.
We're dropping the home element but need to keep being alert, hence stay alert.
Stay - adv. - to continue doing something, to continue being in a particular state.
Its not rocket science you're being deliberately thick as I don't believe you're that thick for real.