politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Holyrood 2021: The election that could kill the Union stone de

Nigelb said:

Testing capacity of 100k....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566
...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs.
The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems".
The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said.
Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....

Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.

And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately.
If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity.
And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.

kyf_100 said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

philiph said:

Cyclefree said:

Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?

I think the media are the obsessing

Same request to you please. "Stay Alert" is the new phase behavioural advice. Please let us know what it means exactly. Stay at Home I get. This, less so.

Off the top of my head ...

Stay distanced, don't cough into the air, wash your hands etc ... Be alert to the dangers and lessons we have learnt in recent months.

So this is just assuming we weren't staying alert while staying at home and now we should stay alert while staying at home? That it?

Sadly I think so long as people are being paid 80% of their salaries to sit on their bums, support for the lockdown, aka paid holiday, will continue.

Go to work, pay taxes, save the economy.

Casino_Royale said:

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.

You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.

There's just fewer of you, that's all.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.

While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.

So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election

You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said

People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.

You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.

You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice

I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it

However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.

While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.

So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election

You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said

People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.

You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.

You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice

I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it

However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see

NickPalmer said:

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/JonesTheBosher/status/1259373302289772545?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1259373302289772545&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-to-announce-covid-19-alert-system

Nigelb said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

KLE, well said , and I apologise for being wrong about your opinion.

It’s pretty well mine, too.
I do wonder if there would be slightly less desire for independence if we English did not treat Scotland with quite so much condescension.

Theuniondivvie said:

How lucky the UK is, it has all sorts of examples to learn from in relation to its own choices. Hasn't helped much so far, mind.

https://twitter.com/JoeMillerJr/status/1259388568620982277?s=20

NickPalmer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The posts on here are entirely predictable

However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative

Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others

Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra

Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject

Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from

I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19

Big_G: the public have shown that they're really good at following clear advice. Stay at home? OK, we'll stay at home. They are understandably less good at following fuzzy advice, and "Stay alert" could mean almost anything It worries me in a non-partisan sense that Boris's natural atyle is to emphasise stirring rhetoric and uplifting banter rather than boring precision. Perhaps he'll surprise me, though.

I agree about the advantage of being late to the party so we can see how others are getting on. But we need to use that advatange to clear good effect.

NickPalmer said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The posts on here are entirely predictable

However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative

Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others

Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra

Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject

Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from

I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19

Big_G: the public have shown that they're really good at following clear advice. Stay at home? OK, we'll stay at home. They are understandably less good at following fuzzy advice, and "Stay alert" could mean almost anything It worries me in a non-partisan sense that Boris's natural atyle is to emphasise stirring rhetoric and uplifting banter rather than boring precision. Perhaps he'll surprise me, though.

I agree about the advantage of being late to the party so we can see how others are getting on. But we need to use that advatange to clear good effect.

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I have to say I am amused by people on here acting hysterical like they don't know what the word alert means.

I have to say I don't think the British public is that stupid that they don't know what it means. I'd be embarrassed of our country if they are.

What you are missing is that the government evidently thinks we are stupid because if all that is changing is that we now have to be alert doing all the things we were doing previously then the govt didn't think we were being so before = think we are stupid.

And people on here are lapping it up. Never seen such a bunch of ferocious critics of bad decisions fall into line behind the government like docile puppies during this crisis.

No.

If the message goes from Stay Home to Stay Alert then by definition the government thought we already where alert (hence Stay) but now away from home more if need be.

How do you Stay Alert if you were never alert in the first place?

Please read that back to yourself and try to make head or tail of it. That depends what the meaning of is is, right? I fear you're having another blind spot here.

They thought we were being alert but sometimes not always. eg they thought we were stupid.

No its really simple.

They thought we were being alert but at home. The message being home.

We're dropping the home element but need to keep being alert, hence stay alert.

Stay - adv. - to continue doing something, to continue being in a particular state.

Its not rocket science you're being deliberately thick as I don't believe you're that thick for real.

MaxPB said:

Nigelb said:

Testing capacity of 100k....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52603566
...The government has admitted sending about 50,000 coronavirus tests to the US last week for processing after "operational issues" in UK labs.
The Department of Health said sending swabs abroad are among the contingencies to deal with "teething problems".
The samples were airlifted to the US in chartered flights from Stansted Airport, the Sunday Telegraph said.
Results will be validated in the UK and sent to patients as soon as possible....

Results which are not available within 24 hours are of questionable use.

And if testing is going to support contact tracing, results must be available immediately.
If have yet to see any evidence that we’ve started to develop an effective contact tracing capacity.
And app on its own (assuming it works) is nowhere near sufficient.

Yes, we're still pursuing a strategy where the testing labs are under the tight grip of PHE. They've set up three centres and sequestered equipment for them instead of sending samples to the companies and universities that had the equipment. It's very arse about face.

By failing to exert full control over PHE, Hancock has probably caused the deaths of thousands of additional people and led to two extensions of lockdown.

DavidL said:

malcolmg said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

David, we only have one choice, get rid of the dead hand of Westminster, run our own affairs and not have to put up with idiots like Carlaw.
We would then have real Scottish politicians implementing real Scottish policies, not the shitshow we currently have.

And where are these competent politicians going to come from Malcolm? Because Sturgeon apart there’s damn few in the SNP and hardly any anywhere else.

SandyRentool said:

I've spent the past hour being alert. Haven't spotted any viruses yet.

Even using binoculars.

Am I doing it wrong?

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.

Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.

On what measure worse?

Sky show a chart of hospital admissions (I think) as a percentage of the peak and Scotland is still quite high compared with England.

Presumably this is why Sturgeon is worried.

The question that no one is asking is, what’s the plan? That Sun poll has a quarter of people wanting lockdown to continue until the virus is eradicated.

Scotland is 2-3 weeks behind England on the Corona curve, I think that's neither here nor there when it comes to elections next year.

I’m not sure you can be behind when lockdown happened at the same time (and peaks happened at the same time).

Anyway, I wouldn’t bet on English elections either for the same reason.

The lockdowns are acts of human agency, the virus will behave on its own terms. If England and Scotland are at the same point in the progress of the virus, on the bare figures the situation appears less brutal up here (and that's an observation not a jingoistic boast).

edmundintokyo said:

Anabobazina said:

Maybe I’m the only person who doesn’t have a problem with Stay Alert. Seems fine.

Better than the loathsome Americanism Stay Home.

Good riddance.

They could at least have gone with "Be alert" so we could do the "Britain needs lerts" gag

OllyT said:

HYUFD said:

OllyT said:

Charles said:

OldKingCole said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1259212041073520640?s=09

My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.

Very few people I know are laughing about this.

I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.

By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.

Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK

Not true but DYOR.

Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.

If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.

malcolmg said:

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Theuniondivvie said:

tlg86 said:

Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.

Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.

On what measure worse?

Sky show a chart of hospital admissions (I think) as a percentage of the peak and Scotland is still quite high compared with England.

Presumably this is why Sturgeon is worried.

The question that no one is asking is, what’s the plan? That Sun poll has a quarter of people wanting lockdown to continue until the virus is eradicated.

Scotland is 2-3 weeks behind England on the Corona curve, I think that's neither here nor there when it comes to elections next year.

I’m not sure you can be behind when lockdown happened at the same time (and peaks happened at the same time).

Anyway, I wouldn’t bet on English elections either for the same reason.

The lockdowns are acts of human agency, the virus will behave on its own terms. If England and Scotland are at the same point in the progress of the virus, on the bare figures the situation appears less brutal up here (and that's an observation not a jingoistic boast).

TUD , the numbers suggest deaths are lower at present but we are a couple of weeks behind England so not sure if that will last.

HYUFD said:

ClippP said:

HYUFD said:

Just 12% want the lockdown ended now or next week but just 24% want the lockdown to continue beyond July too.
648% want the lockdown ended by the end of the month, 68% want the lockdown ended by the end of June
https://twitter.com/DavidWooding/status/1259406036202655745?s=20

Interesting figures, HY. So what is government policy now?

To have largely ended lockdown by the end of June bar mass gatherings, festivals and big sporting events but with testing and tracing greatly expanded by then

HYUFD said:

OllyT said:

HYUFD said:

OllyT said:

Charles said:

OldKingCole said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1259212041073520640?s=09

My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.

Very few people I know are laughing about this.

I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.

By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.

Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK

Not true but DYOR.

Missing the point again completely - what is going to damage the government is if the narrative takes hold that we are the worst performing country in Europe and that the Cabinet, by extension, have been incompetent.

If that view takes hold it won't matter a jot that Belgium has more deaths per head.

Except it is not


https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1259216403116298240?s=20

https://twitter.com/MattSingh_/status/1259212991624622084?s=20

HYUFD said:

OllyT said:

Charles said:

OldKingCole said:

AlastairMeeks said:

https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1259212041073520640?s=09

My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.

Very few people I know are laughing about this.

I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.

By who? A few leftwing papers like the New York Times that is about it.

Most countries are concerned with their own situation and anyway the US has most deaths in total and Belgium most deaths per head, not the UK

williamglenn said:

Nicola Sturgeon is now divisively repeating the UK government’s slogan. She’s clearly obsessed with independence.

https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1259432190368190465?s=21

Big_G_NorthWales said:

The posts on here are entirely predictable

However, 'stay at home' has to be changed at some time and frankly 'stay alert' seems to me to be a sensible change in the narrative

Most people will understand that 'staying alert' is very much something they will want to do and in particular on social - distancing and general contact with others

Listening to Mark Drakesford today any differences seem to be in the margins and of course those on here attacking Boris give a free pass to the devolved first ministers who sit alongside Boris in Cobra

Boris and the government have made mistakes and I cannot understand why he has allowed the 'gossip' in the media to continue for so long when he could have addressed the nation days earlier. He needs a new 'comms' team as the present one is abject

Actually we do have an advantage in so far as other countries are now easing their restrictions and their experiences will be useful for us to learn from

I spent most of yesterday in our garden in the beautiful weather and rarely read PB and it was frankly refreshing, especially when I read the polarised comments from a few on here today who seem to be driven by other motives than the one most people crave for; overcoming covid 19

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.

While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.

So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election

You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said

People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.

You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.

You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice

I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it

However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see

You can expect what you want it will not happen, the Tory manifesto made clear there would be no indyref2 if the Tories won a majority and with a Tory majority of 80 it has zero chance of getting through Westminster. End of conversation.

It would take a Starmer premiership and an SNP majority at Holyrood for indyref2 to happen

williamglenn said:

Nicola Sturgeon is now divisively repeating the UK government’s slogan. She’s clearly obsessed with independence.

https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1259432190368190465?s=21

MarqueeMark said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

edmundintokyo said:

Anabobazina said:

Maybe I’m the only person who doesn’t have a problem with Stay Alert. Seems fine.

Better than the loathsome Americanism Stay Home.

Good riddance.

They could at least have gone with "Be alert" so we could do the "Britain needs lerts" gag

KEEP ALERT AND CARRY ON!

How do I keep a lert? What food do they need? Can I take it for a walk? More importantly, how do I BBQ it?

Sunil_Prasannan said:

NickPalmer said:

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/JonesTheBosher/status/1259373302289772545?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1259373302289772545&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-to-announce-covid-19-alert-system

Um, those looks like deaths per 10,000.

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1259440331763978240?s=21

dr_spyn said:

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1259440331763978240

cue for micro analysis of slogan, search for police trying to interpret new wording, hours of mindless discussion over minutiae by lobby on tv.

Enjoy.

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.

While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.

So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election

You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said

People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.

You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.

You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice

I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it

However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see

You can expect what you want it will not happen, the Tory manifesto made clear there would be no indyref2 if the Tories won a majority and with a Tory majority of 80 it has zero chance of getting through Westminster. End of conversation.

It would take a Starmer premiership and an SNP majority at Holyrood for indyref2 to happen

Does sound somewhat jackboot like.

MarqueeMark said:

williamglenn said:

Nicola Sturgeon is now divisively repeating the UK government’s slogan. She’s clearly obsessed with independence.

https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1259432190368190465?s=21

She's clearly obsessed with a fear that Scotland's CV-19 figures might be worse than England's. Of course she can argue that "ENGLAND STOLE ALL OUR PPE!!", but even so, might be tricky come next year's election...

OldKingCole said:

HYUFD said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

HYUFD said:

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

kle4 said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.

Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.

That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.

Yet you are happy that the people of Scotland are denied a vote jsut so you can retain your Britishness.

No, I think there should be another vote, I don't think it can reasonably be denied and have said so ever since an election was called in 2017 after A50 was triggered on the basis that I felt the period of negotiation justified pausing any such vote plans, but if a GE was acceptable in that time then a SINDY ref was too, if the Scottish people wanted it.

I don't want to lose my Britishness, but I've never suggested that desire should deny a vote to Scotland.

Well fine but the Tories won a majority in 2019 with a manifesto commitment to no indyref2.

While Starmer has said he would grant indyref2 if the SNP won a majority and he was PM, Boris has made clear he will not grant indyref2 whatever the circumstances based on the 'once in a generation' referendum in 2014.

So whatever happens at Holyrood next year Westminster will not grant any indyref2 until at least after the next UK general election

You are probably right there won't be one until after then, and legally that is acceptable. Part of me will even be slightly relieved not to face that prospect sooner, tinged with concern it will aggravate theissue. I was merely refuting malc's assumption that since I don't want to lose my identity I must therefore be 'happy' to deny a vote to Scotland, which is nonsense based on the common assumption that everyone who holds one view must hold the most extreme additional views of others who hold it. It certainly wasn't based on anything I have ever said

People will not wait that long. It is not up to a balloon in Westminster whether we can vote or not.

You can vote Malc but for it to be legal in law it needs Westminster approval.

You do not like that but then I do not like the ECJ ruling over us but at present we have no choice

I would expect the Westminster government to accept the validity of a referendum if the SNP wins a majority in 2021 and do not accept HYUFD view Boris will prevent it

However, as I have said before and never waivered, I do not believe an independence vote will be won, especially because of covid, but let us see

You can expect what you want it will not happen, the Tory manifesto made clear there would be no indyref2 if the Tories won a majority and with a Tory majority of 80 it has zero chance of getting through Westminster. End of conversation.

It would take a Starmer premiership and an SNP majority at Holyrood for indyref2 to happen

Does sound somewhat jackboot like.

OldKingCole said:

MarqueeMark said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

edmundintokyo said:

Anabobazina said:

Maybe I’m the only person who doesn’t have a problem with Stay Alert. Seems fine.

Better than the loathsome Americanism Stay Home.

Good riddance.

They could at least have gone with "Be alert" so we could do the "Britain needs lerts" gag

KEEP ALERT AND CARRY ON!

How do I keep a lert? What food do they need? Can I take it for a walk? More importantly, how do I BBQ it?

Does it like pineapple on pizza?

SandyRentool said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1259440331763978240?s=21

Limit contact with other people.

Does that mean visiting family once a week?

DavidL said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

NickPalmer said:

Hmm.

https://twitter.com/JonesTheBosher/status/1259373302289772545?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1259373302289772545&ref_url=https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/live/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-live-boris-johnson-to-announce-covid-19-alert-system

Um, those looks like deaths per 10,000.

I don’t think that they are cumulative. They are for the 7 day period only and comparing countries that have different levels of infection , different periods of lockdown, different intensity of lockdown and which are at different points on the curve. In short, a total waste of time.

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.

You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.

There's just fewer of you, that's all.

In a democracy doesn't having fewer voters matter?

SandyRentool said:

williamglenn said:

https://twitter.com/borisjohnson/status/1259440331763978240?s=21

Limit contact with other people.

Does that mean visiting family once a week?

HYUFD said:

Disagree with this thread header.

First Nationalists already have a majority at Holyrood

williamglenn said:

Nicola Sturgeon is now divisively repeating the UK government’s slogan. She’s clearly obsessed with independence.

Nigelb said:

This is a genius tip.

A simple method to prevent spectacle lenses misting up on wearing a face mask
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3293317/

Theuniondivvie said:

Casino_Royale said:

malcolmg said:

Casino_Royale said:

DavidL said:

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).

Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.

Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.

It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.

I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.

Good man. I feel the same way.

I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.

I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.

I feel the opposite, being owned and controlled by England is a disgrace.

You are not. You are fully equal with me in every way.

There's just fewer of you, that's all.

Look, a few hundred million EU citizens are waving at you.

Stocky said:

CorrectHorseBattery said:

Genuinely wonder if Johnson might get ousted before 2024

I`ve been wondering the same. I`m on Sunak and Hunt already.