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Good morning. I thought you may be interested in a perspective from The Philippines where my ex-neighbour lives:
“I keep up with all of the events in the UK on line – so am aware of what a mess the politicians have made of this – both with dealing with the epidemic, and with their reluctance to understand risk, and the result of this on the economy long term.
People love the state paying them not to work – but this is totally untenable and must come to an end very shortly. The amount of money being borrowed and printed by the government is truly staggering – your kids will spend half their working lives paying this debt off – it must stop and now.
No one will be travelling with the two week quarantine on the return to the UK in place – and a lot of countries have the two week quarantine on arrivals – so a two week holiday is actually a six week one – not going to happen.
We do not have it around here – but they do in Cebu City some way away – so the police have quarantined the City – no one allowed in or out – and as they are armed it is successful. There are travel restrictions in place here – so we can go down to Danao city – but you need a household pass – we have one – so no real issue. The tradesmen, such as the aircon/roofers/plumbers/electricians, come from Cebu – so my internal build has slowed down – but the travel restrictions are due to be lifted on the 15th May.”
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The point was made earlier about patriotism. Rallying round the flag!Fishing said:
To think they're only on 50% in the polls...CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.1 -
The blue wall collapses? Not a chance, Boris could kill us all with abject incompetence, but Horsham remains firmly blue.ydoethur said:
I can’t help but feel though this is politically risky.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
If England reopens earlier and seems to be doing OK despite having been harder hit than Scotland, she’s going to have a hard time explaining to the voters of Scotland that it was really important that she forced them to absorb more economic damage so that Scottish policy would not be the same as English policy.
Of course, if the opposite is true, SNP gain 75% of seats and Labour gain Horsham.0 -
I wonder if more success for the SNP might actually come to bite them on the bum?
I'm thinking that at some point the stroppy teenager act is going to wear thin. All that whining and door slamming might just cause the UK government to decide to give them some adult responsibility.
In particular I am thinking changes to taxation could be a useful tool. If, say, as part of a package of tax changes to cope with the after-corona landscape, the UK regions were forced to become more self sufficient in revenue collecting? Suddenly no more blaming daddy for their stingy allowance.
I do find the older I get the more I understand what my parents went through...
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Churchill? Which is why Boris fancies himself. And why he's 'Speaking to the Nation' tonight instead of doing what a leader in a democracy ought to do, and set our his plans to the Parliament.ydoethur said:
Ho Chi Minh.Dura_Ace said:
Lenin. Ben-Gurion. van Gaal.Endillion said:
Could you give us some examples of people who want to be leader during a crisis? It doesn't sound like the healthiest of attitudes.CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
Mao, perhaps, although he was more usually causing crises than trying to lead in them.0 -
I am hoping to goodness Boris hasn't written two speeches, pulling out the one that suits the mood music best at 6.59 this evening.OldKingCole said:
Churchill? Which is why Boris fancies himself. And why he's 'Speaking to the Nation' tonight instead of doing what a leader in a democracy ought to do, and set our his plans to the Parliament.ydoethur said:
Ho Chi Minh.Dura_Ace said:
Lenin. Ben-Gurion. van Gaal.Endillion said:
Could you give us some examples of people who want to be leader during a crisis? It doesn't sound like the healthiest of attitudes.CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
Mao, perhaps, although he was more usually causing crises than trying to lead in them.5 -
Taking (back) control was always Dom's mantra!Alistair said:0 -
Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=210 -
The Labour Party and SNP are gagging for attack lines which is why both Sturgeon and Starmer have been pressing the government for lockdown easing plans - which they can they go on to criticise. Accordingly, Tories are scared of negative narratives developing. Bit of a stalemate. This party political stuff is the last thing we need at the moment.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
The government are in a proper bind.0 -
The Government has a huge majority and is electorally safe for a while, for better or worse they don't need to worry what others think. They need to LEAD.Stocky said:
The Labour Party and SNP are gagging for attack lines which is why both Sturgeon and Starmer have been pressing the government for lockdown easing plans - which they can they go on to criticise. Accordingly, Tories are scared of negative narratives developing. Bit of a stalemate. This party political stuff is the last thing we need at the moment.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
The government are in a proper bind.0 -
Yeah, but this polling is kinda bollocks.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).0 -
I already mentioned him!OldKingCole said:
Churchill? Which is why Boris fancies himself. And why he's 'Speaking to the Nation' tonight instead of doing what a leader in a democracy ought to do, and set our his plans to the Parliament.ydoethur said:
Ho Chi Minh.Dura_Ace said:
Lenin. Ben-Gurion. van Gaal.Endillion said:
Could you give us some examples of people who want to be leader during a crisis? It doesn't sound like the healthiest of attitudes.CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
Mao, perhaps, although he was more usually causing crises than trying to lead in them.
From his memoirs on the day he became Prime Minister:
‘As I went to bed at about 3am, I was conscious of a profound sense of relief. At last I had the authority to give directions over the whole scene. I felt as if I were walking with destiny and that all my past life had been but a preparation for this hour and this trial.’0 -
SNP most seats is free money at 1/10. I just don't understand those odds at all. What could possibly prevent it?
A Salmond inspired breakaway of a different nationalist party? I would put that at less than 50/1. A palace coup removing Sturgeon by the likes of Cherry? Not even 50/1. An all conquering Tory party? You just have to type it to see how absurd that is.
On a very good day I can see the Tories getting close to 30% and the SNP down to 35%. My wildest dreams don't go further than that.2 -
I’d say 90% is a high enough figure to give some credence to.Casino_Royale said:
Yeah, but this polling is kinda bollocks.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).0 -
A key passage from that article:AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
"Half of those in work are content to be stuck indoors indefinitely if their company still pays them or they get 80 per cent of their salary under the government’s furlough scheme."
Our populist government is in a trap of it`s own devising. It wants to ease drawdown with public support - but support for easing lockdown will not happen while people are paid to stay at home.0 -
Also, a plurality of those polled there preferred "lifting some restrictions as part of a phased return to normal life" over any other option for what the PM should do today.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
The 'lockdown as long as it takes' contingent are bouncing around in the 25-35% box, and I bet they disproportionately include the financially secure, retired and those with homes with gardens.0 -
I have an extremely low opinion of the press that remarkably has been further reduced by their coverage of the pandemic.Mexicanpete said:
Uh? Have you been at Eadric's absinthe again?MarqueeMark said:
It's almost as if, I dunno, people in lockdown don't buy paper and don't generate any news..... Can't be as simple as that, can it?Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.1 -
Oh great, yet more depressing news!0
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I completely agree. They are way to sensitive to negative headlines. But they are a populist government. We need leviathan.Pulpstar said:
The Government has a huge majority and is electorally safe for a while, for better or worse they don't need to worry what others think. They need to LEAD.Stocky said:
The Labour Party and SNP are gagging for attack lines which is why both Sturgeon and Starmer have been pressing the government for lockdown easing plans - which they can they go on to criticise. Accordingly, Tories are scared of negative narratives developing. Bit of a stalemate. This party political stuff is the last thing we need at the moment.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
The government are in a proper bind.1 -
If that happened she'd blame Westminster for not passing over enough PPE supplies, mismanaging the scientific advice, not giving enough funding under Barnett to the Scottish NHS, Brexit, the Tories or all of the above.ydoethur said:
I can’t help but feel though this is politically risky.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
If England reopens earlier and seems to be doing OK despite having been harder hit than Scotland, she’s going to have a hard time explaining to the voters of Scotland that it was really important that she forced them to absorb more economic damage so that Scottish policy would not be the same as English policy.
Of course, if the opposite is true, SNP gain 75% of seats and Labour gain Horsham.
There is no scenario under which the SNP will ever take responsibility for any failing in Scotland.1 -
‘Control’ - is the government is sharing its anxiety?0
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Look at the small print, and the rest of the polling in that article.AlastairMeeks said:
I’d say 90% is a high enough figure to give some credence to.Casino_Royale said:
Yeah, but this polling is kinda bollocks.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).
It doesn't say what you think it does.0 -
First post, first SNP honeymoon soon to be over.TGOHF666 said:No administration is immune to gravity. Particularly ones that aren’t any good at the basics like education, health, finance.
DYOR.
No timeline for this kicking out from the nuptial bed of course. Must have learned something from your previous 417 failed predictions.0 -
On what measure worse?tlg86 said:Alastair Meeks's 10-1 tip on NOM in 2016 was a great bet.
Given things in Scotland are looking worse than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't bet on these elections. There's a decent chance they don't happen.0 -
Indeed. I dont like that so many dont feel that it is, but the number doesnt seem to be reducing so at best things remain on a knifes edge. In a debate project fear stuff can be true but even when it is it wont win the day on its own.Casino_Royale said:
There is the economic stuff, sure, but ultimately if we don't feel part of the same country the UK isn't going to stick in the long-term.MaxPB said:
How would Scotland fund the £40-50bn in additional spending required to see off this virus? It's the unanswerable question.Casino_Royale said:
It won't work. It's an identity question.williamglenn said:
They’re trying to stop it in the same way people like Cameron tried to stop Brexit by constantly warning that Eurosceptics would take us out of the EU.Casino_Royale said:
Well, it's a unionist party.williamglenn said:
The Scottish Tories seem obsessed with independence.Casino_Royale said:I backed the SNP heavily to win a majority over a week ago on the basis of a very similar personal analysis.
I hate it, but politicalbetting isn't about what you want: it's about what you think will happen and seeking the value out there.
https://twitter.com/milesbriggsmsp/status/1259362627521785857
Why wouldn't they be worried about it and trying to stop it?
Obviously many Scots will be left entirely cold but I'd appeal to shared bonds we have as Britons across our islands and the great future we have together.
Forget the project fear stuff.
I'd prefer to win or lose on those grounds.0 -
No, you misunderstood. The scenario I am talking about is where easing lockdown makes no difference to the disease but helps the economy recover.Casino_Royale said:
If that happened she'd blame Westminster for not passing over enough PPE supplies, mismanaging the scientific advice, not giving enough funding under Barnett to the Scottish NHS, Brexit, the Tories or all of the above.ydoethur said:
I can’t help but feel though this is politically risky.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
If England reopens earlier and seems to be doing OK despite having been harder hit than Scotland, she’s going to have a hard time explaining to the voters of Scotland that it was really important that she forced them to absorb more economic damage so that Scottish policy would not be the same as English policy.
Of course, if the opposite is true, SNP gain 75% of seats and Labour gain Horsham.
There is no scenario under which the SNP will ever take responsibility for any failing in Scotland.
She couldn’t blame that on London if she had publicly said she was keeping it in place for epidemiological reasons, although she would undoubtedly try as you say.0 -
I bet the people who want to be free to spread the virus disproportionately include those who (albeit often wrongly) think they're at no personal risk, and couldn't give a damn about the other people they may infect.Casino_Royale said:
Also, a plurality of those polled there preferred "lifting some restrictions as part of a phased return to normal life" over any other option for what the PM should do today.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
The 'lockdown as long as it takes' contingent are bouncing around in the 25-35% box, and I bet they disproportionately include the financially secure, retired and those with homes with gardens.0 -
CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes and that will forever baffle me. But I accept I'm not like the majority of the country.Fishing said:
To think they're only on 50% in the polls...CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
I hope at least most will agree that we have a competent opposition again and if they continue to be competent, they should get more support.
How can anyone judge they are competent based on two PMQ appearances by Starmer?
As for the shadow cabinet, with a couple of exceptions their competence level is unknown.
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That's true but that's hardly unusual in politics, it is not a new phenomenon that people dont get selected on merit. The question is whether Boris' cabibet are an egregious example.Mexicanpete said:
Boris' selection criteria for Cabinet was anyone who might eclipse me doesn't make the cut. There are some magnificent Tory MPs, few made it into Boris' cabinet.MarqueeMark said:
You are missing a Shadow in there. I'm not sure any of that shower of deadbeats will ever get to see a Ministerial limo in their career.CorrectHorseBattery said:
The entire cabinet is full of deadbeats, why is this news to anyone???Mysticrose said:
Oh come on now. You must be the last person on this island ready to defend Matt Hancock. Dreadful throughout, totally out of his depth, supercilious, vacuous, self-promoting at every opportunity, clueless on the science, sending vacillatory messages and often responsible for some of the worst failings of the crisis handling.squareroot2 said:
No ot shows that the Mail is a shit paper writing shitty stuff.SouthamObserver said:
There does seem to be a downward swing in approval for the government’s handling of the crisis. It’s net +12 with Opinium now, that’s way down on where it was. The YouGov is from last week, so it’ll be interesting to track its evolution over time. If we’re going to get out of this with any degree of success we need confidence in the government to remain high. But the hatchet job on Hancock in today’s MoS shows the government does not even have confidence in itself. That is a worry.AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
This crisis has shown that Boris has a number of deadbeats in his Cabinet.0 -
Fair enough.ydoethur said:
No, you misunderstood. The scenario I am talking about is where easing lockdown makes no difference to the disease but helps the economy recover.Casino_Royale said:
If that happened she'd blame Westminster for not passing over enough PPE supplies, mismanaging the scientific advice, not giving enough funding under Barnett to the Scottish NHS, Brexit, the Tories or all of the above.ydoethur said:
I can’t help but feel though this is politically risky.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
If England reopens earlier and seems to be doing OK despite having been harder hit than Scotland, she’s going to have a hard time explaining to the voters of Scotland that it was really important that she forced them to absorb more economic damage so that Scottish policy would not be the same as English policy.
Of course, if the opposite is true, SNP gain 75% of seats and Labour gain Horsham.
There is no scenario under which the SNP will ever take responsibility for any failing in Scotland.
She couldn’t blame that on London if she had publicly said she was keeping it in place for epidemiological reasons, although she would undoubtedly try as you say.
She'd still do it though and her base would lap it up.2 -
It was already pretty darn high, the rallying effect can be over exaggerated.OldKingCole said:
The point was made earlier about patriotism. Rallying round the flag!Fishing said:
To think they're only on 50% in the polls...CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.0 -
The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.5 -
I generally believe key opposition politicians have been very measured in their response to the government's handling of Covid-19 so far. When dissent has occurred by and large it has been in response to some party political wheeze by Boris or Cummings.Stocky said:
The Labour Party and SNP are gagging for attack lines which is why both Sturgeon and Starmer have been pressing the government for lockdown easing plans - which they can they go on to criticise. Accordingly, Tories are scared of negative narratives developing. Bit of a stalemate. This party political stuff is the last thing we need at the moment.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
The government are in a proper bind.
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My sense is people don't really enjoy the office that much and are happy to work from home ad infinitum.Chris said:
I bet the people who want to be free to spread the virus disproportionately include those who (albeit often wrongly) think they're at no personal risk, and couldn't give a damn about the other people they may infect.Casino_Royale said:
Also, a plurality of those polled there preferred "lifting some restrictions as part of a phased return to normal life" over any other option for what the PM should do today.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
The 'lockdown as long as it takes' contingent are bouncing around in the 25-35% box, and I bet they disproportionately include the financially secure, retired and those with homes with gardens.
However, they do want to be able to see very close friends and family. The rest they can live with. They are largely ignorant or indifferent to the long-term economic effects so long as they don't have to bear the costs.
Their behaviour bears this out.0 -
True, although Boris has taken it to Olympic standards.kle4 said:
That's true but that's hardly unusual in politics, it is not a new phenomenon that people dont get selected on merit. The question is whether Boris' cabibet are an egregious example.Mexicanpete said:
Boris' selection criteria for Cabinet was anyone who might eclipse me doesn't make the cut. There are some magnificent Tory MPs, few made it into Boris' cabinet.MarqueeMark said:
You are missing a Shadow in there. I'm not sure any of that shower of deadbeats will ever get to see a Ministerial limo in their career.CorrectHorseBattery said:
The entire cabinet is full of deadbeats, why is this news to anyone???Mysticrose said:
Oh come on now. You must be the last person on this island ready to defend Matt Hancock. Dreadful throughout, totally out of his depth, supercilious, vacuous, self-promoting at every opportunity, clueless on the science, sending vacillatory messages and often responsible for some of the worst failings of the crisis handling.squareroot2 said:
No ot shows that the Mail is a shit paper writing shitty stuff.SouthamObserver said:
There does seem to be a downward swing in approval for the government’s handling of the crisis. It’s net +12 with Opinium now, that’s way down on where it was. The YouGov is from last week, so it’ll be interesting to track its evolution over time. If we’re going to get out of this with any degree of success we need confidence in the government to remain high. But the hatchet job on Hancock in today’s MoS shows the government does not even have confidence in itself. That is a worry.AlastairMeeks said:
Interestingly, the government is still getting net positives on how it is handling the crisis when the question is asked without context.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
This result from Opinium, however, is consistent with this one:
https://twitter.com/Samfr/status/1256892770024898560?s=19
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
This crisis has shown that Boris has a number of deadbeats in his Cabinet.0 -
They are learning from the government('s advisor Neil Ferguson).Casino_Royale said:
Yeah, but this polling is kinda bollocks.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).2 -
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.gettingbetter said:
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=210 -
Yes, even while riding high pre Corona they were acting nervous about every little thing. Goodness knows how they'll react when they fall well behind the opposition, which is a common position once you get years into a term. Theyve forgotten that.Pulpstar said:
The Government has a huge majority and is electorally safe for a while, for better or worse they don't need to worry what others think. They need to LEAD.Stocky said:
The Labour Party and SNP are gagging for attack lines which is why both Sturgeon and Starmer have been pressing the government for lockdown easing plans - which they can they go on to criticise. Accordingly, Tories are scared of negative narratives developing. Bit of a stalemate. This party political stuff is the last thing we need at the moment.Casino_Royale said:
She takes a very different view for Scotland in contrast to England?williamglenn said:
Well, knock me down with a feather.
The government are in a proper bind.0 -
The UK is almost unique in failing to record the number of recovered so any chart of active cases can only go down if people die. Its absurd and I don't understand why we do not record this information which is surely essential if we need to know how close to herd immunity we are getting.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.gettingbetter said:
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=210 -
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.0 -
There was quite a wee burst of Jackson for FM when he won the Tunnock's Wafer Challenge Cup aka SCon leadership. I assume even Tories are too embarrassed to try that line now.malcolmg said:
If they could only shut up about SNP doing it when it is in fact them that are obsessed, rightly so given they know they are doomed.Casino_Royale said:
Well, it's a unionist party.williamglenn said:
The Scottish Tories seem obsessed with independence.Casino_Royale said:I backed the SNP heavily to win a majority over a week ago on the basis of a very similar personal analysis.
I hate it, but politicalbetting isn't about what you want: it's about what you think will happen and seeking the value out there.
https://twitter.com/milesbriggsmsp/status/1259362627521785857
Why wouldn't they be worried about it and trying to stop it?0 -
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.5 -
Do you think there is clear message coming from this government? It seems to me to be more like an uncoordinated rabble. This is not surprising, since the Conservative Party nowadays is an unholy alliance of conflicting interests.Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.0 -
People in government evidently don’t agree on what the next step should be. Perhaps they should set out options in Parliament and get an indicative vote.0
-
If you say so, but I'm pretty sure Brexit has shown there would be a sharp decrease in grown up politics for a significant period, on all sides, post any vote and pre enactment of that vote. If it's what people want it must happen but it will be even more emotional and complicated and anyone suggesting it will be easy - that in this one instance such a process would be easy - is talking nonsense.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.0 -
Yep. Not just him either. Scottish CMO was the same.TOPPING said:
They are learning from the government('s advisor Neil Ferguson).Casino_Royale said:
Yeah, but this polling is kinda bollocks.AlastairMeeks said:Relaxing the lockdown isn’t exactly the public’s current priority:
https://twitter.com/martinboon/status/1259391373293297665?s=21
People all over the place are 'relaxing the lockdown'.
They're just scared of others doing it (not them).
Everyone knows it's bollocks (absolute lockdown) they just don't trust others to do it properly.
They trust themselves absolutely.
0 -
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.2 -
It was your sense of British identity that prevented you from doing all you could to stop it in June 2016.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.0 -
Nope, BJ has definitely grown in office. It's 3 speeches at least.Mexicanpete said:
I am hoping to goodness Boris hasn't written two speeches, pulling out the one that suits the mood music best at 6.59 this evening.OldKingCole said:
Churchill? Which is why Boris fancies himself. And why he's 'Speaking to the Nation' tonight instead of doing what a leader in a democracy ought to do, and set our his plans to the Parliament.ydoethur said:
Ho Chi Minh.Dura_Ace said:
Lenin. Ben-Gurion. van Gaal.Endillion said:
Could you give us some examples of people who want to be leader during a crisis? It doesn't sound like the healthiest of attitudes.CorrectHorseBattery said:The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
Mao, perhaps, although he was more usually causing crises than trying to lead in them.0 -
I feel European and I have been stripped of my citizenship!DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.0 -
Some of the messaging from government has been perfectly clear and effective, indeed some have reversed course and called it too effective. But it's clearly not been universally clear on every aspect, and it's not a surprise that as a new phase approaches theres less certainty and agreement on what to do.ClippP said:
Do you think there is clear message coming from this government? It seems to me to be more like an uncoordinated rabble. This is not surprising, since the Conservative Party nowadays is an unholy alliance of conflicting interests.Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.0 -
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.0 -
So what are the odds that the new slogan will have been ditched by 7pm?0
-
Anyone who doesn't understand the messages from the Government is as dim as Beth RigbyClippP said:
Do you think there is clear message coming from this government? It seems to me to be more like an uncoordinated rabble. This is not surprising, since the Conservative Party nowadays is an unholy alliance of conflicting interests.Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.0 -
I think you'll find it was a British nationalism that regarded Englishness as an affectation or worse that caused the problem.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.1 -
And you did all you could to stop that. As did many many others. Unsuccessfully, yes, but all that process shows is that there will be many doing all they can to not lose their British identity should Sindy occur, which I'm sure it will.OldKingCole said:
I feel European and I have been stripped of my citizenship!DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.0 -
A couple of days ago the Mail online (I know) had series of newspaper frontpages from across the world all with pretty much the same theme - why is the UK making such a mess of the handling the virus?OldKingCole said:
Excellent point. VE Day appears to have been used to that end.AlastairMeeks said:OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Boris fans can rightly claim we are not the worst European nation per capita (yet) or other countries don't count this or that or are underreporting the figures but none of that will matter if the narrative takes hold that we have done the worst in Europe. I think that narrative is well on the way to become the conventional wisdom.
Boris had better hope that the end of the Brexit transition is handled successfully or his government is going to be well and truly stuck with the incompetence tag.0 -
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.0 -
A lot of people are criticising Boris which is fine by me, he's fair game, but who do we think is better equipped to cope at the moment?
I honestly can't think of anybody0 -
No bet...SandyRentool said:So what are the odds that the new slogan will have been ditched by 7pm?
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/12594097822445527040 -
Perhaps you could give the new Wings party a shot? They're as likely* to provide a competent opposition to the SNP as anyone.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
*not very likely0 -
-
Please dont tell me my identity is dead. Its extremely childish to tell people how in effect that what they feel is not real, as a means of delegitimising a particular view.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
That the identity may not be strong enough with enough people to preserve the union may be true but that's not the same thing.2 -
People understood the government's messages in Thursday's papers.backinthedhss said:
Anyone who doesn't understand the messages from the Government is as dim as Beth RigbyClippP said:
Do you think there is clear message coming from this government? It seems to me to be more like an uncoordinated rabble. This is not surprising, since the Conservative Party nowadays is an unholy alliance of conflicting interests.Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.
That's why they spent the next two days relaxing in the park.0 -
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.Casino_Royale said:
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.0 -
Scotland is in a mess. It is in No Man's Land between Uionists who can't preserve the Union, and an independence party that can win seats but not independence.0
-
Stay Alert
2 -
Germany's Der Spiegel published the allegations this weekend, citing intelligence from the country's Federal Intelligence Service, known as the 'Bundesnachrichtendienst' (BND).
According to the BND: 'On January 21, China's leader Xi Jinping asked WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus to hold back information about a human-to-human transmission and to delay a pandemic warning.0 -
If No 10 could have without the press conferences I'm sure they would have.Scott_xP said:0 -
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Crystal clear.Scott_xP said:
No bet...SandyRentool said:So what are the odds that the new slogan will have been ditched by 7pm?
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/12594097822445527040 -
I see your tourettes has returned.AlastairMeeks said:
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.Casino_Royale said:
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.1 -
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Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.1 -
I think this is right. Narrative is always key and we are clearly doing pretty badly and even if at the end of the day its not technically the worst if its arguable that we might be that will be enough.OllyT said:
A couple of days ago the Mail online (I know) had series of newspaper frontpages from across the world all with pretty much the same theme - why is the UK making such a mess of the handling the virus?OldKingCole said:
Excellent point. VE Day appears to have been used to that end.AlastairMeeks said:OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
The government seems to be benefiting for now from patriotism. The public is clear-eyed about its failures. How this will resolve itself once the crisis is past is unclear.
Boris fans can rightly claim we are not the worst European nation per capita (yet) or other countries don't count this or that or are underreporting the figures but none of that will matter if the narrative takes hold that we have done the worst in Europe. I think that narrative is well on the way to become the conventional wisdom.
Boris had better hope that the end of the Brexit transition is handled successfully or his government is going to be well and truly stuck with the incompetence tag.1 -
Well, the current government could have called on any or all of the five living former Prime Ministers, all of whom I believe would have done a better job than the incumbent and all of whom could have provided helpful guidance.coach said:A lot of people are criticising Boris which is fine by me, he's fair game, but who do we think is better equipped to cope at the moment?
I honestly can't think of anybody
For a start, they might actually have turned up to the relevant meetings.2 -
CorrectHorseBattery said:
The reality is, Johnson doesn't want to be a leader in a crisis. He wants to be the leader in good times, when we're all more concerned with Love Island and going to the pub.
He was not made for this kind of thing and neither was his Government/cabinet. And it shows.
I felt at the time this broke that this was not what Johnson signed up for. I think he imagined himself spending the next 5 years doling out largesse to the adoring new Tory voters in the North and Midlands. Things are now going to be very different indeed.2 -
You think you can just divide the nation in two, impose the most extreme version of your preferred outcome riding roughshod over your opponents without wrecking any sense of common purpose? I realised that Leavers were fantasists but we’re now approaching fairytales.Casino_Royale said:
I see your tourettes has returned.AlastairMeeks said:
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.Casino_Royale said:
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.0 -
Presumably because we don't have the foggiest how many have recovered as they'll be recovering at home and not reporting that?DavidL said:
The UK is almost unique in failing to record the number of recovered so any chart of active cases can only go down if people die. Its absurd and I don't understand why we do not record this information which is surely essential if we need to know how close to herd immunity we are getting.Philip_Thompson said:
I'm not sure on the accuracy of that chart (the UK seems to have come down faster than that) but that looks rather like the UK has "flattened the curve". The flatten the curve graphs shared massively before lockdown had the no flattening one being steeply up then steeply down while the flattened curve one was up but to a lower peak then coming down much slower and with a longer tail than without flattening.gettingbetter said:
Is this graph correcf fie the UK? We dont record total active cases do we? It seems wrong.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
If we need to know how close to herd immunity we are we need to know how many people have actually had it - not how many of those who've said they had it since say they don't anymore.0 -
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Nah, they would have done that anyway.SandyRentool said:
People understood the government's messages in Thursday's papers.backinthedhss said:
Anyone who doesn't understand the messages from the Government is as dim as Beth RigbyClippP said:
Do you think there is clear message coming from this government? It seems to me to be more like an uncoordinated rabble. This is not surprising, since the Conservative Party nowadays is an unholy alliance of conflicting interests.Sandpit said:
The mixed messaging isn’t coming from government though, it’s coming from media desperate to bounce the government into easing the restrictions (while simultaneously complaining about the number of cases being too high).Mexicanpete said:
I am of the opinion that with the best will in the world any UK government would have struggled with testing, PPE supply and as the lockdown was such a big judgement call, I can even understand why that was held off until after the last minute.edmundintokyo said:
I think the UK and especially the US are going to be pretty fucked. They're doing the same thing Japan did in mid-March: Cases flattened off a bit, the government sends mixed messages, so people start to end their response unilaterally. Except whereas Japan was doing this from a base of 1000 cases, the UK is doing it from 200,000 cases, and the US 1.2 million.SouthamObserver said:Apologies for linking to one of my own Tweets, but the charts are interesting, I think.
https://twitter.com/spajw/status/1259368031593127937?s=21
You end up with a new spike, a load more dead people, and you've blown away the effect of the lockdown and you have to start the whole thing again.
The chaotic mixed messaging since Wednesday is truly shambolic and can be laid directly at Boris' door.
That's why they spent the next two days relaxing in the park.0 -
0
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Nothing wrong with the 'Stay Alert' slogan.
People are now on a blame-game bandwagon. The slogan is fine for the next phase of getting us out of lockdown.1 -
This discussion shows why a federal UK is the only way forward. In America, you can be from Illinois or Wyoming, and be American. And proud of your city and county (e pluribus unum, etc.). In Germany, you can be a Saxon or Hamburger and still be German. There are fairly clearly demarcated lines between the two, and though there are often tensions, there are clear mechanisms for resolving those tensions (Supreme Court in the US, the Constitutional Court in Germany, etc.).AlastairMeeks said:
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
But because we have been fudging the questions of the difference between Englishness and Britishness since Blair gave Scotland its Parliament, it's a constant tension here, and there is no clear way to resolve it.0 -
You're a lot more persuasive when you dont act like this you know. Extremely persuasive in fact, it can be hard to disagree even when people would like to, which always makes me wonder why you deliberately act unpersuasively at other times. Why would someone choose to communicate in an ineffective way when they are able to be so much more effective? I can only assume it's for the fun of it.AlastairMeeks said:
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.Casino_Royale said:
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.1 -
Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?0
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“Stay alert” is a bit fatuous. It’s hardly the biggest problem right now though.0
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I don't think the slogan is great, but we are definitely back to the media doing their "but we are so confused" routine.Mysticrose said:Nothing wrong with the 'Stay Alert' slogan.
People are now on a blame-game bandwagon. The slogan is fine for the next phase of getting us out of lockdown.1 -
Charles has a bit of a habit of over-reacting to phrases such as that. I understood what you meant and agree with you too.OllyT said:Charles said:
Very few people I know are laughing about this.OldKingCole said:
My friends overseas are amazed at the bog we're apparently making of it. Laughing stock is one description.AlastairMeeks said:
I think that was a turn of phrase rather than meant to be taken literally. The fact is that the UK is being pointed to around the world as a failure in its response to Covid-19.0 -
It`s designed to be woolly - to tacitly urge people out of their hidey holes whilst providing the government with some cover from critics who are poised to accuse it of talking risks.Scott_xP said:The new slogan is officially fucked...
https://twitter.com/SophyRidgeSky/status/1259412438153379840
Witness Starmer`s absurd question at PMQs and Johnson`s pathetic response.0 -
Because on the latter they haven't got a clue?Cyclefree said:Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
Actually, on the former they've demonstrated that they haven't a clue.2 -
I think you will find it is the media who are obsessed by it.Cyclefree said:Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
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If you can't work from home, go to work.
Save lives.
Protect the NHS.0 -
The nut nuts who backed and back Brexit - who regard the only true Brexit as the one that causes the most damage, that have no interest in addressing any of the concerns of their opponents and indeed see their alienation as a vindication - are not people who I would be interested in persuading, nor would it be a profitable use of my time to try.kle4 said:
You're a lot more persuasive when you dont act like this you know. Extremely persuasive in fact, it can be hard to disagree even when people would like to, which always makes me wonder why you deliberately act unpersuasively at other times. Why would someone choose to communicate in an ineffective way when they are able to be so much more effective? I can only assume it's for the fun of it.AlastairMeeks said:
I almost feel sorry for you because you’re so oblivious. But you chose to throw yourself in with a movement that militantly rejects other views of identity, branding them traitors and quislings, and telling them just to suck it up.Casino_Royale said:
Not amongst all of us it isn't.AlastairMeeks said:
British identity is already dead. The country is possessed by an English nationalism that regards all other identities as invalid.Casino_Royale said:
Good man. I feel the same way.DavidL said:
I am British. I would be stripped of my national identity if that were to happen. I will do all I can to stop it.Philip_Thompson said:
Which is part of why I back Scottish independence as the best thing for Scotland.DavidL said:The absolute inevitability of SNP most seats is what drives Tory tactics in focusing on indepdence. What is the point in spending a lot of time developing a better policy on education when there is no chance of being the government? What they are seeking to do is consolidate enough of the Unionist vote to prevent an SNP majority and thus, hopefully, prevent a second referendum (subject to the little green helpers, of course).
Whilst I understand the logic of that it is a mistake. Scotland has not had an actual policy choice since 2007. In that 13 years we have had the truly disastrous Curriculum for Excellence imposed in our schools with the inevitable consequences in our PISA ranking, we have the insane position of still offering free University education to EU citizens at a time when funded places for Scots are being restricted, we have had the shambolic and ongoing embarrassment that is Police Scotland, we have had an ever more centralised and unaccountable concentration of power in the likes of the Care Commission, stripping local government of powers and budget, I really could go on and on. As someone actively interested in politics I genuinely don't know what the Tories or Labour are proposing in relation to these failures. It's not good enough. Scotland needs a proper choice.
It is only once the independence issue is over and done with that Scotland can get mature, grown up politics back.
I am English but love Scotland - I lived there for six years as a child - and feel it's part of our UK.
I would be so upset if it left. It's the emotional connections that mean so much to me.
And then you wonder why the concept of an inclusive Britishness is now purely historical.
I note that all you can do is bleat that you don’t like my tone. Try explaining how you think I’m wrong rather than mewling like a scalded cat.0 -
That's a very silly comment. Communication is extremely important, and getting across key messages has rightly been a focal point of praise and criticism because of that. The stay at home slogan as you call it worked very well reinforced by policy but voluntary compliance was key.Cyclefree said:Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
It's also possible to think about a slogan and of other things.
Stay alert is not the greatest effort, as mr meeks notes being alert is not a major issue. I take the point about new message for new phase but I think it could wait.
0 -
Because the public need educating and a slogan is a good way to do it.FrancisUrquhart said:
I think you will find it is the media who are obsessed by it.Cyclefree said:Why on earth is the government apparently obsessing about slogans rather than actual practical measures?
0
