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  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,076

    You are being nasty and making personal insults and statements not me.

    It had everything to do with context. Everything has to do with context. The context was a discussion about Inheritance Tax. I will quote again the exact words used.

    NickP: "As for IHT, I'm with Kinabalu - part of the deal of living in Britain is to pay a fair share, not avoid it. If that's mostly when I'm dead, so much the better."

    eadric: "You don’t have kids tho. So there’s that. "

    DougSeal: "Why is that in any way relevant to Nick’s point?" [my note here - Nick's point was on IHT]

    Philip_Thompson: "Its easy not to want to pass something to your kids if you don't have any." [my note here - again about passing on to kids, IHT discussion]

    DougSeal: "This is a discussion about IHT which taxes estates not offspring. You don’t need to have children to pass on an estate. Unless you are suggesting people without kids care less than those with?" [my note here - even here you're still talking about the context of IHT]

    We're not talking about generic caring. We're talking about passing on something via inheritance and especially to one's children. That is the conversation. If you read more to it - despite even you saying it was about IHT then that is on you not me.

    And when you calm down and realise you're wrong feel free to apologise at your leisure for calling me names repeatedly. I've never called you a name. Oh and maybe apologise for thinking I was trying a zinger when I said I'm sorry [for a typo] because my children were distracting me and I made a typo. That was no zinger its literally true.
    I'm not going to get involved in the personal spat here, but a person's opinions and interests about where their money goes after they die should not be down-weighted because then have no childern.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Ave_it said:

    Well done Boris and Carrie

    LOL at all the hard left halfwits posting on here earlier criticising him for not attending PMQs!

    The early arrival of the Fat Fornocator's latest illegitimate child manages to do him a favour.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,491
    justin124 said:

    The early arrival of the Fat Fornocator's latest illegitimate child manages to do him a favour.
    Well I suppose you didn't wish death or illness on a politician for once.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    eristdoof said:

    I'm not going to get involved in the personal spat here, but a person's opinions and interests about where their money goes after they die should not be down-weighted because then have no childern.
    And. moreover, those who don't have childrten are financially penalised after death to the extent of about £120K (depending on precise date of death).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728
    Nigelb said:

    Raab's answer on care homes disingenuous.
    And Starmer did a poor job of holding the government to account on that.

    Raab listed in some detail the potential sources of infection being brought in to care homes, while ignoring what is very probably the single most significant one.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,232
    edited April 2020
    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.

    Edit: The graphic as shown on PB excludes the Sun and Mail o_O ! Dire for them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    1.6 million Brits have returned from abroad since Covid began - almost all on commercial flights - in the last month 200,000 from Spain and 50,000 from Australia. 19,000 Cruise ship Brits have returned home.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    RobD said:

    By your own admission the photo opportunity is the easy stuff. Wouldn't it make sense to start with the easy stuff in a staged return?
    Can't quite believe you're asking such a daft question.

    Because we're in a crisis and the PM needs to concentrate on the important parts of the job. Not fluff.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,203
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.
    This chart doesn’t really tell us anything, except maybe the relative perceptions of BBC v ITV.

    Paper’s reach is too small and atomised to me measured in this way, although would be interesting to see Mail Online vs Guardian as the main two “free” sites.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918

    True but irrelevant because Angela Merkel is a chemist and not a physicist.
    Mea culpa. She was a physicist till her late 20s but later got a doctorate in quantum chemistry. (Though actually she is now a politician, not a physicist or a chemist.)

    And I was wrong, because a classicist is obviously better placed to understand the mathematics of epidemiology than someone with training in physics and chemistry.

    My misguided attempt to defend Boris was fatally flawed. He's fair game on this issue.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,979
    Off topic, but of relevance to those with an interest north of the border....

    Malcolmg, aside, this is the kind of bampottery that we have to put up with in Scotland. And this guy is a current MP and former Cabinet Secretary for Justice at Holyrood!!

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/kenny-macaskill-says-dark-forces-involved-trial-alex-salmond-2553066?itm_source=parsely-api
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    I feel sorry for the SAGE group.

    Spineless cowards like Raab and Co are trying to shift all of the responsibility for one of the biggest decisions this country has had to make since the war onto them.

    advisers advise, governments decide. But not if you listen to Raab.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    I love the fact that you think chatting shit with a non-entity is a 'key part of his job'. :smile:
    ??
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    Yeah because May did such a good job beating Corbyn and a Continuity May option like Hunt would have done well wouldn't they?
    I am talking about who would have done a better job of dealing with this pandemic. You clearly don't believe anyone could have done a better job than Boris. I disagree.

    In a few months time we will know how successful our government has been compared to others. I am content to wait.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317
    edited April 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    He should concentrate on the key parts of the job, of which PMQs is one, and not bother with photo opportunities and the like.

    That sort of staged return. Not the sort which allows him to do the easy stuff and avoid the important parts.

    And if he is unable to do the job then there is an obvious solution. Being PM is not a sine cure or reward. Not at any time but especially not now.
    Takes all sorts. Personally, if someone is recovering from illness I’d give them the easier tasks first. My girlfriend had a C-Section last November, so I made sure she didn’t have to lift anything, and when she did she started on things that were light before moving on to heavier objects.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,667
    tlg86 said:

    A Class 800 - surely he deserves something better than that!
    Pretty fast train, mind :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,667
    Nigelb said:

    India is already setting up to be by some distance the largest manufacturer of that particular vaccine.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-52363791
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317
    Piers Morgan dragging the ITV score down
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,161
    The FT Coronavirus charts are better than the Guardian's. I think those results say more about underlying bias than recent performance - but still interesting on that basis.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918
    But if there were as many COVID-19 deaths outside hospital as in hospital across the UK, there would be more than 43,000 in total.

    Surely that's inconceivable? We were told not long ago that 50,000 was ridiculous.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OllyT said:

    I am talking about who would have done a better job of dealing with this pandemic. You clearly don't believe anyone could have done a better job than Boris. I disagree.

    In a few months time we will know how successful our government has been compared to others. I am content to wait.
    The word you used were "The Tory membership are responsible for Boris, anyone they chose would have beaten Corbyn in December" - that was about a pandemic?

    I am happy with our government and content to wait too.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    That would be slightly more interesting if the percentages excluded don't knows. As it is it's hard to get a feel for how consumers of each outlet feel relative to one another (though that might say more about them than the outlets).
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    Can't quite believe you're asking such a daft question.

    Because we're in a crisis and the PM needs to concentrate on the important parts of the job. Not fluff.
    So concentrate on COBR before PMQs?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,336
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.

    Edit: The graphic as shown on PB excludes the Sun and Mail o_O ! Dire for them.
    It may just be the Tele's out and out shitness, even Righties have a quality control threshold.

    Stuff like this doesn't help of course.

    https://twitter.com/JulienHoez/status/1255448288687521794?s=20
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    I can't recall him taking part in any photo opportunities since he returned to work and if he had then that would be something to criticise.

    Do you accept that at prior times before this that all previous PMs have sometimes considered something else the PM needs to do is more important at that time than PMQs and sent a deputy instead?

    If hypothetically the PM were able to have the energy to attend and give 100% to a COBR meeting or PMQs would you accept that COBR might at this time be the more important choice?
    An interesting choice given Boris's record of attendance at such meetings. Why do you assume it is impossible to schedule a meeting and PMQs so that they don't clash.

    If he cannot manage PMQs or if he can only manage one meeting he's not fit enough to be PM. He should get better and then do the job properly. If he remains incapable for a long time then the issue of whether he should remain PM arises. But we are not there yet. So I hope he uses his paternity leave to get better properly. And when he's back I would want him not to avoid responding to questions in Parliament.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728

    I feel sorry for the SAGE group.

    Spineless cowards like Raab and Co are trying to shift all of the responsibility for one of the biggest decisions this country has had to make since the war onto them.

    advisers advise, governments decide. But not if you listen to Raab.

    I disagree with you on (probably) most things, but on this, I find it hard to disagree.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.

    Edit: The graphic as shown on PB excludes the Sun and Mail o_O ! Dire for them.
    Not sure how the polling works, but you really want to exclude non-readers from a poll like this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.

    Edit: The graphic as shown on PB excludes the Sun and Mail o_O ! Dire for them.
    Telegraph readership still exceeds Times readership though, even if more have a positive view of the Times (which is probably the closest thing we have to a centrist paper now) they are not paying to read it
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728
    isam said:

    Takes all sorts. Personally, if someone is recovering from illness I’d give them the easier tasks first. My girlfriend had a C-Section last November, so I made sure she didn’t have to lift anything, and when she did she started on things that were light before moving on to heavier objects.
    Except that there is no one in a position to 'give' the PM tasks. If he's in charge, then such things are up to him.
    Thats why this 'staged return to work' business is unconvincing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    Do 41% of people read The Sun?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317
    tlg86 said:

    That would be slightly more interesting if the percentages excluded don't knows. As it is it's hard to get a feel for how consumers of each outlet feel relative to one another (though that might say more about them than the outlets).
    Does that chart imply 45% of the country have an opinion on whether The Guardian is covering the Coronavirus well or not? I doubt 4.5% do
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    If the UK had seen Hong Kong and in January had gone "Right - lockdown - now. No flights in or out. Returnees in 14 day quarantine" - it might have saved many lives. But can you imagine the squeals from the media chatterati, deprived of their skiing trips? "For what? We haven't got any Covid...."

    The point some of us are trying to make is not that we should have followed HK necessarily. The point is that for 2 weeks when the consequences of the pandemic were becoming worse by the day Boris skived off to Chevening for 2 weeks with his girlfriend to sort out his convoluted private life. He was not focussed on the upcoming problem and he should have been. Only time will tell how costly that will prove.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295

    If the UK had seen Hong Kong and in January had gone "Right - lockdown - now. No flights in or out. Returnees in 14 day quarantine" - it might have saved many lives. But can you imagine the squeals from the media chatterati, deprived of their skiing trips? "For what? We haven't got any Covid...."

    Absolutely. Shutting down the economy now is fine, but shutting the borders a few weeks ago — no, we couldn't possibly have done that.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    More seriously this is a genuine concerning part of this. The likes of Amazon were already incredibly powerful, the longer this goes on, the worse the outcome for many companies, further consolidating things with the likes of Amazon.
    I think a 20% tax on online purchases would be in order to try to help the high street retail trade to recover. Amazon have been handed an unfair advantage for a few months, that should be reversed for six months once shops can fully re-open.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043

    No, ignore the rhetoric and look at the reality. Trump's record is appointing Republican justices, cutting taxes for corporations and billionaires, and trying to axe Obamacare. All pre-existing House GOP positions, and none that can be described as populist. Trade wars are the exception. Incidentally, this is why I do not accept that Trump and Boris are interchangeable.
    Trump's immigration bans are also not the 'compassionate conservatism' reaching out to Hispanics the Bushes were pushing.

    Trump is also far closer to Putin and Kim Jong Un than the GOP elite is comfortable with
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Pulpstar said:

    I'd expect the Daily Mirror to be low, being an anti Tory paper in a broadly Tory country right now.
    But look at the pro Brexit Telegraph's ratings.

    Edit: The graphic as shown on PB excludes the Sun and Mail o_O ! Dire for them.
    The Guardian score is (relative to the other papers) a bit of a devastating blow to those who think it is an irrelevant talking to itself woke rag that is totally insignificant and doesn't reflect real people.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    isam said:

    Takes all sorts. Personally, if someone is recovering from illness I’d give them the easier tasks first. My girlfriend had a C-Section last November, so I made sure she didn’t have to lift anything, and when she did she started on things that were light before moving on to heavier objects.
    Lifting heavy objects is not essential to being a mother. Presumably she holds your baby.

    I have always told my staff to come back to work when they are properly better. Unimportant stuff does not need doing. The important stuff does. That's what they're paid for.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295

    There was no obvious need to do so in January. But if had UK had just done that in early March, when lots of people were close to begging the government to take action, it might have saved many lives too.
    There was no need for a lockdown in January, but we could have stopped people travelling in and out of the country, with a quarantine for British people wanting to return to the UK.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    Cyclefree said:
    I'm I the only one that had a horrible thought when reading this question?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited April 2020

    There was no basis to do that. Remember that in the early stages we were doing really well at tracking and isolating each case that occurred, and it looked at the time that that would continue to be the best approach. What people who criticise the government for not taking more drastic action earlier are missing (or are conveniently forgetting) is that the outbreak in Northern Italy wan't picked up for some considerable time. By the time the Italians realised how bad things were, it had already spread, and it was that which suddenly disrupted the track-and-isolate approach.
    The fact that there was a serious virus outbreak in China was well known in January. Why didn't we stop travel to and from China and neighbouring countries at that time? There seems to have been a fatalistic attitude that we "couldn't possibly stop the virus from spreading from country to country". I don't understand why there was such an attitude with regard to the virus spreading between countries, but at the same time there's a belief that we can and ought do all sorts of things to stop it spreading within countries? That doesn't make sense.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651

    So concentrate on COBR before PMQs?
    Like he did before you mean?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2020
    isam said:

    Does that chart imply 45% of the country have an opinion on whether The Guardian is covering the Coronavirus well or not? I doubt 4.5% do
    isn't it the 1st or 2nd most read news site in Britain after the BBC?

    EDIT: Just checked, BBC, then MailOnline the Guardian.

    MailOnline is the other papaer with highest all outcomes figure there
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    tlg86 said:

    I'm I the only one that had a horrible thought when reading this question?
    Which was?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317
    edited April 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Lifting heavy objects is not essential to being a mother. Presumably she holds your baby.

    I have always told my staff to come back to work when they are properly better. Unimportant stuff does not need doing. The important stuff does. That's what they're paid for.
    A baby is quite a heavy object for someone who’s recently had a C-Section to lift. She couldn’t drive for two months, so I did the driving. When she could drive, she started with small journeys rather than lengthy ones. This all seems so obvious. People who are recovering from serious illnesses l/big operations start back to work with lighter workloads whether they’re Adolf Hitler or Mother Theresa
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795
    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/1255426139935379457

    I was half joking when I thought people would actually tweet that Boris induced the baby to avoid being questioned... but no, predictable as ever.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,746
    Andy_JS said:

    The fact that there was a serious virus outbreak in China was well known in January. Why didn't we stop travel from China and neighbouring countries at that time?
    Italy stopped direct flights from China and it has been argued that it made matters worse by redirectling passengers through connecting flights from other countries.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    It's absolutely fair - Classics (or rather Greats or Literae Humaniores, please) is vastly superior.
    That attitude probably explains why Germany runs rings around us on just about every level.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/1255426139935379457

    I was half joking when I thought people would actually tweet that Boris induced the baby to avoid being questioned... but no, predictable as ever.

    It must be absolutely exhausting living your life whilst simultaneously double guessing what half the population "really" thinks.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,317
    edited April 2020
    Alistair said:

    isn't it the 1st or 2nd most read news site in Britain after the BBC?

    EDIT: Just checked, BBC, then MailOnline the Guardian.

    MailOnline is the other papaer with highest all outcomes figure there
    66 million people in Britain, how many do you think read The Guardian regularly? Nearly 30 million?!

    My thinking is this poll has too many overly politically engaged people answering it

    I’d say I was overly engaged with news and politics, and would have to be a ‘don’t know’ as to whether The Guatdian are covering it well or not, and I have read a couple of John Harris articles
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,762
    edited April 2020
    Andy_JS said:

    There was no need for a lockdown in January, but we could have stopped people travelling in and out of the country, with a quarantine for British people wanting to return to the UK.
    I don't actually recollect anyone suggesting a need for travel restrictions and quarantine in January, so I don't see any reason to expect the government to have done so. We could have saved lots of lives by simply locking down and restricting travel as soon as the number of cases became significant in early March. There was no need to do so in January.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    DougSeal said:

    Italy stopped direct flights from China and it has been argued that it made matters worse by redirectling passengers through connecting flights from other countries.
    The answer to that is that there should have been a coordinated approach between countries to stop travel from countries that first exhibited the virus.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    edited April 2020
    OllyT said:

    That attitude probably explains why Germany runs rings around us on just about every level.
    Merkel is the only scientist who has been German Chancellor, Schroder and Kohl were both lawyers (though Kohl switched to history and political science). Thatcher was a chemist by undergraduate degree and initial training of course
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Just caught up with PMQs, Starmer TERRIBLE. He sounds like the worlds most self important QC opening a case in the Chancery Division knowing that the case is listed for 10 weeks and the judge is a mate of his from Chambers who won't stop him going on and on and bloody on till lunchtime on day 4 of the trial.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    edited April 2020

    I don't actually recollect anyone suggesting a need for travel restrictions and quarantine in January, so I don't see any reason to expect the government to have done so. We could have saved lots of lives by simply locking down and restricting travel as soon as the number of cases became significant in early March. There was no need to do so in January.
    It's the government's job to take the lead, not wait for others to suggest ideas to them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,232
    Andy_JS said:

    The answer to that is that there should have been a coordinated approach between countries to stop travel from countries that first exhibited the virus.
    You can bet your bottom dollar Heathrow was one of those 'redirection' hubs betwixt China and Italy.
  • novanova Posts: 754
    isam said:

    66 million people in Britain, how many do you think read The Guardian regularly? Nearly 30 million?!

    My thinking is this poll has too many overly politically engaged people answering it
    My four year old doesn't, but then he doesn't take part in many surveys either. It doesn't surprise me that 45% of over 18s read Guardian articles.

    As Alistair mentioned it's the 2nd most popular newspaper due to it's online presence. In terms of "news" as opposed to the sidebar of shame stuff in the Mail, it's almost certainly number one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728
    .

    I don't actually recollect anyone suggesting a need for travel restrictions and quarantine in January, so I don't see any reason to expect the government to have done so. We could have saved lots of lives by simply locking down and restricting travel as soon as the number of cases became significant in early March. There was no need to do so in January.
    Agreed.
    It was noted at the time that neighbouring countries like Taiwan and Vietnam introduced very strict travel restrictions in early February, so early March for was foreseeable.
    (And, of course, both have been very successful in controlling their outbreaks.)
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,295
    eadric said:

    ‘Devastating’?

    Just look at C4 News. Despite a small viewership it gets approval from 32% of the public (more than the Guardian). Why? Because It is the one news channel which is clearly leftwing and Remainery, so leftwing/Remainer people loyally back it. Ditto the Guardian (no one cares about the Mirror)

    Britain is still a nation tribalised and polarised by Brexit. Everything is still seen through a Brexit prism, even pandemic response. Cf the fear and loathing directed at Dom Cummings and his role
    Did you see Cummings' blog post about a possible pandemic from March last year?

    https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-about-to-re-start-experiments-on-pathogens-engineered-to-make-them-mammalian-airborne-transmissible/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just caught up with PMQs, Starmer TERRIBLE. He sounds like the worlds most self important QC opening a case in the Chancery Division knowing that the case is listed for 10 weeks and the judge is a mate of his from Chambers who won't stop him going on and on and bloody on till lunchtime on day 4 of the trial.

    Yes, it was Poor vs Poorer.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,534
    I fear a shambles is coming down the tracks that will keep Peston hyperventilating for weeks...

    "The NHS must feel strongly enough about the merits of the centralised approach to accept any technical limitations, but it is unclear that consumers will agree. Contact tracing apps need to achieve critical mass; at least two thirds of the population, according to some experts."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/04/27/nhs-going-alone-contact-tracing-decision-may-backfire/

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536
    Cyclefree said:

    Which was?
    We won't be needing quite so many...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,232
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Agreed.
    It was noted at the time that neighbouring countries like Taiwan and Vietnam introduced very strict travel restrictions in early February, so early March for was foreseeable.
    (And, of course, both have been very successful in controlling their outbreaks.)
    Yeah but Taiwan is a small unconnected island in the pacific that noone visits and barely anyone lives there ;)
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    isam said:
    I see Ken Clarke is happy to use the word 'Bastard'!
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035

    The word you used were "The Tory membership are responsible for Boris, anyone they chose would have beaten Corbyn in December" - that was about a pandemic?

    I am happy with our government and content to wait too.
    If you follow the actual thread my response was to someone asserting how much worse our response would have been with Corbyn at the helm. I was pointing out that the more relevant comparison would be between Johnson and other Tory leadership contenders because it is far more likely that any winner of the Tory leadership election would be PM than Corbyn.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,199
    justin124 said:

    I see Ken Clarke is happy to use the word 'Bastard'!
    Isn't it a parody account?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,190
    justin124 said:

    I see Ken Clarke is happy to use the word 'Bastard'!
    Not the real one. Always look for the blue tick blob thingy.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043
    OllyT said:

    If you follow the actual thread my response was to someone asserting how much worse our response would have been with Corbyn at the helm. I was pointing out that the more relevant comparison would be between Johnson and other Tory leadership contenders because it is far more likely that any winner of the Tory leadership election would be PM than Corbyn.
    I disagree, Hunt for example would have stuck to May's Withdrawal Agreement and kept GB in a Customs Union. The Tories may again have been largest party under Hunt but I cannot see how he would have won a majority of 80 as Boris did as working class Leave voters in the North, Wales and Midlands would have voted Brexit Party not for a Hunt led Tories.

    They were only prepared to vote for a Boris led Tories
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,491
    eadric said:

    101 new deaths in Sweden

    Advantage Prof Ferguson?

    https://twitter.com/cricketwyvern/status/1255472449719844864?s=20
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 5,035
    edited April 2020
    HYUFD said:

    Merkel is the only scientist who has been German Chancellor, Schroder and Kohl were both lawyers (though Kohl switched to history and political science). Thatcher was a chemist by undergraduate degree and initial training of course
    I was actually criticising the general attitude to science in the UK vis a vis the Germans
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 30,190
    Nigelb said:

    Yes, it was Poor vs Poorer.
    Some posters did warn of his dull speechifying before SKS's election.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,963

    Johnson's sensible "waffle" is being listened to by the British public who are following his advice to stay at home. Boris is speaking human to the men and women at home.
    The sensible precautions are being followed by most of the public, just because the advice makes sense.

    Boris Johnson´s waffle just gets in the way. He is never serious. So the inference might be that staying at home is unnecessary. After all, what did he do himself?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Some posters did warn of his dull speechifying before SKS's election.
    They did
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Cyclefree said:

    An interesting choice given Boris's record of attendance at such meetings. Why do you assume it is impossible to schedule a meeting and PMQs so that they don't clash.

    If he cannot manage PMQs or if he can only manage one meeting he's not fit enough to be PM. He should get better and then do the job properly. If he remains incapable for a long time then the issue of whether he should remain PM arises. But we are not there yet. So I hope he uses his paternity leave to get better properly. And when he's back I would want him not to avoid responding to questions in Parliament.
    Its not about meeting clashes, meetings don't just take as long as they take - the PM (quite rightly) can spend hours before and after on preparations and follow-up. If the PM normally spends 8-12 hours a day working but this week is capable of 4 hours then should that 4 hours be spent on 3 hours of preparations for PMQ followed by PMQ or should it be spent on the UK's coronavirus response?

    Absolutely long-term if he was incapable of doing it he shouldn't be PM but short-term if it comes to a choice like that it is not unreasonable to act accordingly.

    Interestingly it seems he's decided not to take paternity leave right now and will take it later this year as he wants to concentrate on the coronavirus response. That's fair enough and does him credit.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    isam said:

    A baby is quite a heavy object for someone who’s recently had a C-Section to lift. She couldn’t drive for two months, so I did the driving. When she could drive, she started with small journeys rather than lengthy ones. This all seems so obvious. People who are recovering from serious illnesses l/big operations start back to work with lighter workloads whether they’re Adolf Hitler or Mother Theresa
    A mother cannot simply take time off to recover after a difficult birth. Motherhood is not a job like any other. All you are saying re your girlfriend is sensible.

    But in a professional job my view is that people should return when fit and concentrate on the key and important parts of the job. Not come back half ill and dabble at it.

    I would rather Boris had taken more time off then returned than be given guff that he is raring to go and then find that he is not up to it. Paternity leave has come at the right time for him.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,336
    Slight twist on the tableaux of masterpieces thing. I think I got Death of Marat quickest.

    https://twitter.com/nickfshort/status/1255473181277802498?s=20
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,491
    edited April 2020

    I fear a shambles is coming down the tracks that will keep Peston hyperventilating for weeks...

    "The NHS must feel strongly enough about the merits of the centralised approach to accept any technical limitations, but it is unclear that consumers will agree. Contact tracing apps need to achieve critical mass; at least two thirds of the population, according to some experts."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2020/04/27/nhs-going-alone-contact-tracing-decision-may-backfire/

    I am less concerned about the centralisation of the data from a privacy point of view. The decentralised approach is inferior from the point of view of contact tracing.

    However, we are deciding to ignore the APIs written by two of the biggest, well funded and technically advanced companies in the world, who wrote the OS for these phones. No offence to the people writing apps for the NHS, but they aren't in the same league in terms of expertise or knowledge about the inner workings.

    Also, the NHS version is using a GCHQ hack to make the iPhone version work, so we are relying on Apple deciding not to be arseholes and fixing the loophole. And we all know Apple hate the spooks being able to do anything with their phones.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    SKS open goal with Panorama highlighting the many PPE failings.

    Misses

    Its a throw in
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    eristdoof said:

    I'm not going to get involved in the personal spat here, but a person's opinions and interests about where their money goes after they die should not be down-weighted because then have no childern.
    Absolutely I have never judged anyone for how they want to spend their money.

    This tangent came from Nick's desire to see inheritance tax which is a desire to spend other people's money.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,043

    Some posters did warn of his dull speechifying before SKS's election.
    As I have said before SKS's best hope is he is Hollande to Boris' Sarkozy.

    Hollande was also deathly dull
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728

    Some posters did warn of his dull speechifying before SKS's election.
    It wasn't so much that; rather he seemed underprepared.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    Cyclefree said:

    An interesting choice given Boris's record of attendance at such meetings. Why do you assume it is impossible to schedule a meeting and PMQs so that they don't clash.

    If he cannot manage PMQs or if he can only manage one meeting he's not fit enough to be PM. He should get better and then do the job properly. If he remains incapable for a long time then the issue of whether he should remain PM arises. But we are not there yet. So I hope he uses his paternity leave to get better properly. And when he's back I would want him not to avoid responding to questions in Parliament.
    The new baby plus having being sick presents him with a golden opportunity to dodge the bits of the job he finds tedious and/or hard yet retain his iron grip on the levers of power. This is what "staged return" really means in this context. Not that the return is to be in stages but rather that it will be "staged" (presented) as a drawn out gradual affair. I can see him prolonging this highly satisfactory (for him) situation for as long as possible. Perhaps for weeks. PM with just the good stuff. Some videos. Some set pieces. Perhaps an article or two. No tough inquisitions. No detailed reading of dense materials. I think he will make the most of it. From everything I glean of his character and personality it would be surprising if he did not.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,536

    SKS open goal with Panorama highlighting the many PPE failings.

    Misses

    Its a throw in

    https://order-order.com/2020/04/29/hancock-slams-panorama-communist-union-organiser-boasts-recruited-participants/
  • kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    Nigelb said:

    .

    Agreed.
    It was noted at the time that neighbouring countries like Taiwan and Vietnam introduced very strict travel restrictions in early February, so early March for was foreseeable.
    (And, of course, both have been very successful in controlling their outbreaks.)
    In Denmark we introduced lockdown on the 11th March and were heavily criticised by Sweden, Germany the EU etc for it - I think a lot of people are adapting their memory to support a narrative - the only thing I still don't get is why the UK didn't follow everyone else and basically introduce a very restricted set of reasons for people to come into the UK - I find that baffling.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,651
    tlg86 said:

    We won't be needing quite so many...
    Ah.

    I think even in a post Covid world people will still get old and frail and require care. Unless we all start looking after our elderly relatives ourselves rather than farming them out to strangers.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,551

    1.6 million Brits have returned from abroad since Covid began - almost all on commercial flights - in the last month 200,000 from Spain and 50,000 from Australia. 19,000 Cruise ship Brits have returned home.

    Air traffic passenger numbers in the UK are now down 99% since this time last year - bloke on R4
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,491
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    Yes, on reflection he’s right. It looks like they’ve beaten it without entirely shagging their economy (tho they will still take a hit because of their export dependency)

    Even more interesting, maybe, is their ICU performance. They haven’t reached capacity, despite having even fewer beds per capita, at the start, than the UK

    In theory their laxer approach should have seen hospitals rammed as bad as Lombardy or Madrid. If not worse.
    This is the most confusing aspect of all of this. Italy crashed, Spain crashed, NYC crashed, Paris crashed. We didn't, despite lower capacity (Ferguson said two hospitals in London hit absolute max for a day or two, but that was it), and Sweden despite having even lower than UK have managed fine.

    I haven't heard anybody give a good reason why. There is no evidence of Boris the Butcher ripping away CPAP masks or ventilators from fit oldies, in the way the Italians had to do. But we have had deaths in the same range as a country / city, whose healthcare system had crashed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,728
    Andy_JS said:

    Did you see Cummings' blog post about a possible pandemic from March last year?

    https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-about-to-re-start-experiments-on-pathogens-engineered-to-make-them-mammalian-airborne-transmissible/
    Yes.
    Equally strange was the refusal of Chinese requests for the US to help them with improving safety procedures at their lab in Wuhan.

    Though in reality it seems extremely likely that this virus did not emerge from a lab.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 79,232
    Andy_JS said:

    Did you see Cummings' blog post about a possible pandemic from March last year?

    https://dominiccummings.com/2019/03/04/the-most-secure-bio-labs-routinely-make-errors-that-could-cause-a-global-pandemic-are-about-to-re-start-experiments-on-pathogens-engineered-to-make-them-mammalian-airborne-transmissible/
    Perhaps he should have been in on the SAGE meetings earlier. I've been revising my opinion of him rapidly on this one since it emerged he was pushing for a harder lockdown.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    As I have said before SKS's best hope is he is Hollande to Boris' Sarkozy.

    Hollande was also deathly dull
    Attlee was not an inspiring House of Commons performer - though a very good Chairman.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    IshmaelZ said:

    Just caught up with PMQs, Starmer TERRIBLE. He sounds like the worlds most self important QC opening a case in the Chancery Division knowing that the case is listed for 10 weeks and the judge is a mate of his from Chambers who won't stop him going on and on and bloody on till lunchtime on day 4 of the trial.

    A 'Bleak House' of Commons?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,795

    SKS open goal with Panorama highlighting the many PPE failings.

    Misses

    Its a throw in

    I did worry that about Starmer (and I he's clearly a very intelligent principled guy) is that he's just dull. No ones going to go over the top for him, he's not going to get anyone every fired up and inspired.

    He also seems to lack the 'common touch' of emotion and connectivity. He just doesn't 'move' you.
  • contrariancontrarian Posts: 5,818
    edited April 2020

    This is the most confusing aspect of all of this. Italy crashed, Spain crashed, NYC crashed, Paris crashed. We didn't, despite lower capacity (Ferguson said two hospitals in London hit absolute max for a day or two, but that was it), and Sweden despite having even lower than UK have managed fine.

    I haven't heard anybody give a good reason why. There is no evidence of Boris the Butcher ripping away CPAP masks or ventilators from fit oldies, in the way the Italians had to do. But we have had deaths in the same range as a country / city, whose healthcare system had crashed.
    Seriously who cares?

    Sweden is surely showing us there was and is another way, why are we pursuing this insane lockdown policy any further? Every day that goes by its kills our economy more.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,809
    edited April 2020
    eadric said:

    Yes, on reflection he’s right. It looks like they’ve beaten it without entirely shagging their economy (tho they will still take a hit because of their export dependency)

    Even more interesting, maybe, is their ICU performance. They haven’t reached capacity, despite having even fewer beds per capita, at the start, than the UK

    In theory their laxer approach should have seen hospitals rammed as bad as Lombardy or Madrid. If not worse.
    Does not seem to compute. If Sweden has lower ICU capacity but higher Covid-19 incidence than us, why has their health system not struggled to cope?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,336
    edited April 2020
    Unless the bleach manufacturing sector pulls out a real blinder it's gonna be brutal..
  • TGOHF666TGOHF666 Posts: 2,052
    kinabalu said:

    Does not seem to make sense. If Sweden has lower ICU capacity but higher Covid-19 incidence than us, why has their health system not struggled to cope?
    Better genes.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,918

    Seriously who cares?
    Anyone in their right mind, considering a second wave is probably coming along in a few months.
This discussion has been closed.