The sort of polling that explains why Johnson is desperate to have an election this year and why Corbyn is unlikely to call one.
As the Labour Party finds ever more feeble reasons to prevent one, that gap is just going to increase.
Labour's life force is draining.
I said this at the time they blocked the first attempt: it’s not a good look to say you don’t want people to have a say in how the country is run. Yes, people do get annoyed about having to go and vote, especially in an early election, but standing there and actively preventing them from doing so doesn’t particularly enamour them to you either - it makes you look like you (quite rightly IMHO) are afraid of what they’ll say.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
Your Plan B is? That Johnson majority just gets bigger as you formulate one.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
The people know Johnson.
And anything that would normally get people angry with the government on he has the perfect foil - "zombie Parliament" and its refusal to have an election.
The sort of polling that explains why Johnson is desperate to have an election this year and why Corbyn is unlikely to call one.
As the Labour Party finds ever more feeble reasons to prevent one, that gap is just going to increase.
Labour's life force is draining.
I said this at the time they blocked the first attempt: it’s not a good look to say you don’t want people to have a say in how the country is run. Yes, people do get annoyed about having to go and vote, especially in an early election, but standing there and actively preventing them from doing so doesn’t particularly enamour them to you either - it makes you look like you (quite rightly IMHO) are afraid of what they’ll say.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
No, I’m not saying that at all. In 2017 Labour voted for an election and had a respectable result despite all the prophecies of doom.
All sorts can happen in a GE campaign, but it helps to start off on the right foot rather than looking like you’re absolutely petrified of the prospect.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
So far, the more they see of him, the more he represents their frustrations with the blocking by Westminster. And the more they are prepared to give him their vote to dismantle it.
The sort of polling that explains why Johnson is desperate to have an election this year and why Corbyn is unlikely to call one.
As the Labour Party finds ever more feeble reasons to prevent one, that gap is just going to increase.
Labour's life force is draining.
I said this at the time they blocked the first attempt: it’s not a good look to say you don’t want people to have a say in how the country is run. Yes, people do get annoyed about having to go and vote, especially in an early election, but standing there and actively preventing them from doing so doesn’t particularly enamour them to you either - it makes you look like you (quite rightly IMHO) are afraid of what they’ll say.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
No, the best hope for those who aren't Conservatives is to grasp the fight front-on just as was done when May had a 25% lead in the polls.
To simply whimper and cry behind the sofa isn't pretty.
Ooh, 40%. First one of them since March I believe, before Farage launched Brexit Party.
There was a 42% in August (Kantar), but I think that's the only one.
to add: 200 majority (!) according to Electoral calculus.
UNS implies 64 gains from Labour offset by 7 losses to LDs an 8 to SNP to give the Tories 367 seats - a majority of 84. Yougov implies a majority of 42.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
Your Plan B is? That Johnson majority just gets bigger as you formulate one.
To quote another Conservative Prime Minister "Events, dear boy, Events".
How is the anger to be sustained with time? Answer, it won't. The opposition simply have to wait it out for now. As it becomes clear Johnson has no answers, his support will start to drain away.
How can anyone vote for a man that only twelve months ago said that no conservative PM could put a boarder down the Irish Sea and then does exactly that and then claim he is a genius is beyond me, but I suppose it no longer matters it was always about the Tory part prospects fuck everybody else it’s our god given right to be in power.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
What’s worse for Corbyn , the Tories going into an election after Brexit of before.
Difficult decision .
The longer Labour stops people having an election the bigger Con's lead will get.
but the lead will be essentially transient until the campaign starts, so yeah, the Labour leadership should ideally hold their nerve and block the election for as long as possible.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
Your Plan B is? That Johnson majority just gets bigger as you formulate one.
To quote another Conservative Prime Minister "Events, dear boy, Events".
How is the anger to be sustained with time? Answer, it won't. The opposition simply have to wait it out for now. As it becomes clear Johnson has no answers, his support will start to drain away.
Ask me again in three months.
All the indications at the moment are that by keeping Boris in power and playing games, the opposition are only strengthening his hand.
He has a failsafe excuse for everything that happens now. To get this done, I need an election. This has happened because we haven’t got a majority and the opposition won’t allow me to have an election. I would do that, but I can’t because I need an election.
I don’t think it will have the effect you hope it will have.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
And make sure they're seen to be blocking it. Purge any Labour MPs that argue for an election. Replace them with candidates of the calibre and purity of thought of Salma Yaqoob, Shaista Aziz, Ali Milani and Jo Bird. Hold the line Labour, hold the line.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
No, the best hope for those who aren't Conservatives is to grasp the fight front-on just as was done when May had a 25% lead in the polls.
To simply whimper and cry behind the sofa isn't pretty.
As others have said, this isn't 2017 and for all I dislike him, I happily concede Johnson is a far more effective campaigner than May.
The Opposition needs to pick its moment which clearly isn't now.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
But your ilk has pissed that away
You’ve never offered anything that brings the country together, it’s your Tory brexit or no deal first objective look after the Tory party backers, second objective look after tories third objective go back to number one
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
Your Plan B is? That Johnson majority just gets bigger as you formulate one.
To quote another Conservative Prime Minister "Events, dear boy, Events".
How is the anger to be sustained with time? Answer, it won't. The opposition simply have to wait it out for now. As it becomes clear Johnson has no answers, his support will start to drain away.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
No, the best hope for those who aren't Conservatives is to grasp the fight front-on just as was done when May had a 25% lead in the polls.
To simply whimper and cry behind the sofa isn't pretty.
As others have said, this isn't 2017 and for all I dislike him, I happily concede Johnson is a far more effective campaigner than May.
So what you're saying is the best hope for those of us who aren't Conservatives is to take our lumps (and the inevitable gloating) and watch Johnson win a huge majority and then wait for him to screw things up over the next decade and perhaps we might have a chance in 2029?
Seriously?
No, the best hope for those who aren't Conservatives is to grasp the fight front-on just as was done when May had a 25% lead in the polls.
To simply whimper and cry behind the sofa isn't pretty.
As others have said, this isn't 2017 and for all I dislike him, I happily concede Johnson is a far more effective campaigner than May.
The Opposition needs to pick its moment which clearly isn't now.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
All the indications at the moment are that by keeping Boris in power and playing games, the opposition are only strengthening his hand.
He has a failsafe excuse for everything that happens now. To get this done, I need an election. This has happened because we haven’t got a majority and the opposition won’t allow me to have an election. I would do that, but I can’t because I need an election.
I don’t think it will have the effect you hope it will have.
Perhaps but there comes a point when Boris has to stop whingeing and complaining and deal with the hand May dealt him and he has dealt himself.
It's not the job of the Opposition to make life easy for the Government and at the moment the Opposition has a modicum of control. If Boris thinks he can't govern, he can always resign.
If he hasn't got the numbers perhaps he should build some bridges to get the numbers but that doesn't work for him - he wants a majority and a flock of sheep in parliament who will go wherever he tells them.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
But your ilk has pissed that away
You’ve never offered anything that brings the country together, it’s your Tory brexit or no deal first objective look after the Tory party backers, second objective look after tories third objective go back to number one
No s**t its Tory Brexit or No Deal, we have a Tory government. So which do you want?
Whichever you choose isn't locked in forever, if another party wins the next election they can change things.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Whilst I agree with @stodge that Boris's support will ebb away as he gets tangled up in reality and has to shaft more of his current coalition, I don't think that means Labour should try to delay an election. The reason is the mismatch of timescales: I don't think they can avoid an election for long enough to allow Boris to start reaping the unpopularity inherent in his positioning. Instead Labour are likely to go backwards in the short-term, with their absurd position on Brexit, which pleases no-one, and their laughable demand for an election 'real soon, but not yet'. Better from their point of view to bite the bullet, take the hit, and then get on with their most urgent task of ditching Corbyn ASAP. Then they might start to recover, provided they are not too bonkers in choosing his replacement.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
I'm fine either way. The longer you leave the election the bigger the landslide I expect and Corbyn isn't PM so there's no harm waiting in my eyes.
I think rejecting the poll in September was a terrible mistake by Labour and the damage is already done. Rejecting it again now will be another self-inflicted error.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote
But your ilk has pissed that away
You’ve never offered anything that brings the country together, it’s your Tory brexit or no deal first objective look after the Tory party backers, second objective look after tories third objective go back to number one
No s**t its Tory Brexit or No Deal, we have a Tory government. So which do you want?
Whichever you choose isn't locked in forever, if another party wins the next election they can change things.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
The way the polls are going, I might be the only person left not voting for Boris by 2022.
All the indications at the moment are that by keeping Boris in power and playing games, the opposition are only strengthening his hand.
He has a failsafe excuse for everything that happens now. To get this done, I need an election. This has happened because we haven’t got a majority and the opposition won’t allow me to have an election. I would do that, but I can’t because I need an election.
I don’t think it will have the effect you hope it will have.
Perhaps but there comes a point when Boris has to stop whingeing and complaining and deal with the hand May dealt him and he has dealt himself.
It's not the job of the Opposition to make life easy for the Government and at the moment the Opposition has a modicum of control. If Boris thinks he can't govern, he can always resign.
If he hasn't got the numbers perhaps he should build some bridges to get the numbers but that doesn't work for him - he wants a majority and a flock of sheep in parliament who will go wherever he tells them.
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
How can anyone vote for a man that only twelve months ago said that no conservative PM could put a boarder down the Irish Sea and then does exactly that and then claim he is a genius is beyond me, but I suppose it no longer matters it was always about the Tory part prospects fuck everybody else it’s our god given right to be in power.
Whilst I agree with @stodge that Boris's support will ebb away as he gets tangled up in reality and has to shaft more of his current coalition, I don't think that means Labour should try to delay an election. The reason is the mismatch of timescales: I don't think they can avoid an election for long enough to allow Boris to start reaping the unpopularity inherent in his positioning. Instead Labour are likely to go backwards in the short-term, with their absurd position on Brexit, which pleases no-one, and their laughable demand for an election 'real soon, but not yet'. Better from their point of view to bite the bullet, take the hit, and then get on with their most urgent task of ditching Corbyn ASAP. Then they might start to recover, provided they are not too bonkers in choosing his replacement.
How long are you suggesting it will take before Johnson begins to reap the whirlwind?
What’s worse for Corbyn , the Tories going into an election after Brexit of before.
Difficult decision .
After. Before has its problems, the Tories could clean up the Brexit vote and keep Tory remain voters satisfied with some kind of deal, but it at least has the chance of BXP spoiling the Tory party, and the inherent strength of the Labour brand plus the hope of Corbyn repeating his campaigning skills of last time, resulting in either mitigating the bad result, or who knows even preventing a Tory win. That may not be considered likely, but it has a chance.
Conversely, if the election takes place after Brexit what harm is there for angry Remain voters in voting for the most passionately remain party, the LDs? The Tories will already have achieved a terrible thing, off the back of Labour rebel votes no less, so more chance someone decides they can punish Labour?
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else, the shame is that this clown in no 10 would be toast with a half decent opposition leader. The tories are clearly going to trash all the regulations on employment etc and ensure their backers and themselves make a fortune while you leavers celebrate taking back control with an electoral system that is a joke.
How can anyone vote for a man that only twelve months ago said that no conservative PM could put a boarder down the Irish Sea and then does exactly that and then claim he is a genius is beyond me, but I suppose it no longer matters it was always about the Tory part prospects fuck everybody else it’s our god given right to be in power.
He said that? You should lodger complaint.
As it's Boris, you'll no doubt be saying there was a sign "No Blacks, no dogs, no Irish"
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
But your ilk has pissed that away
A better class of HYUFD....
Nope just saying that Remainers have dug their own grave.
Whilst I agree with @stodge that Boris's support will ebb away as he gets tangled up in reality and has to shaft more of his current coalition, I don't think that means Labour should try to delay an election. The reason is the mismatch of timescales: I don't think they can avoid an election for long enough to allow Boris to start reaping the unpopularity inherent in his positioning. Instead Labour are likely to go backwards in the short-term, with their absurd position on Brexit, which pleases no-one, and their laughable demand for an election 'real soon, but not yet'. Better from their point of view to bite the bullet, take the hit, and then get on with their most urgent task of ditching Corbyn ASAP. Then they might start to recover, provided they are not too bonkers in choosing his replacement.
Indeed, Richard, as a Lib Dem I would welcome the implosion of Labour but the truth is the centre and centre-left needs to get its act together to mount and effective challenge to Johnson and if we need to take a defeat that's how it might have to be and come back to the battlefield in 2024 or early 2025.
I do think Johnson's coalition will break down more swiftly once he is in Government as all the promises and commitments he has made come back to haunt him and unlike now he will have nowhere to hide and no one else to blame.
That doesn't mean (before I'm jumped on by the pro-Johnson brigade) that I want the country to fail or do badly outside the EU but I am very concerned the promises Johnson has made and the clear commitment in his WA to weaken environmental protection and workers' rights will cause a lot of problems for some people.
I don't like him, I don't trust him and I think he is more interested in taking power for and unto himself than he is running the country.
I didn't often agree with Margaret Thatcher but I never thought she was ever doing other than what she thought was right - I disagreed vehemently on the means but not on the ends.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else, the shame is that this clown in no 10 would be toast with a half decent opposition leader. The tories are clearly going to trash all the regulations on employment etc and ensure their backers and themselves make a fortune while you leavers celebrate taking back control with an electoral system that is a joke.
You forgot feast of the firstborns. The top priority of an incoming majority Tory government.
Give us what we want or we vote fascist! Anyone who makes that argument in earnest deserves to never get their way.
They will just as likely vote for extreme left wing parties. Anyway you are the last person to complain. It is already well established that you see democracy as nothing more than means to an end. Once again you only like democracy when you are winning.
What is "well-established" is that I see democracy as a process, not a frozen point in time. I've don't shy away from the view that we should remain in the EU through a referendum or an election. Last time I checked, those were part of the democratic process.
Not until you fulfil the instruction of the first referendum. Until then you are just making excuses and ignoring the democratic process.
There we go. Your view of democracy is that a fixed point in time is holy. That it binds us to future actions even if the majority no longer want it. Consent given cannot be revoked.
Consent given cannot be revoked. That's a rapist's charter.
Utter fucking bullshit from you. You really are a disgusting turd. Any argument you can make no matter how ludicrous to try and support your hatred of democracy. And all because you lost.
Yours is the truly fascist view that the democratic process is only there to help you achieve your aims and once it fails to do that it should be discarded. The view of tyrants and the sorts of scum that support them. You would clearly be happy in a black shirt.
U OK Hun?
The issue is that because the extreme Remainers have twisted and schemed to delay and prevent Brexit the perception has become that a revote is just part of that attempt to frustrate the people’s vote.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
But your ilk has pissed that away
You’ve never offered anything that brings the country together, it’s your Tory brexit or no deal first objective look after the Tory party backers, second objective look after tories third objective go back to number one
I‘m not in public life, but if you want to see what I do to try and “bring the country together” have a look at wwe.thefore.org
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
How can anyone vote for a man that only twelve months ago said that no conservative PM could put a boarder down the Irish Sea and then does exactly that and then claim he is a genius is beyond me, but I suppose it no longer matters it was always about the Tory part prospects fuck everybody else it’s our god given right to be in power.
It's not particularly inexplicable (nor even necessarily mean much, given the examples we've seen of polling high marks) - a large number of people think Boris is able or trying to deliver what they want. Whether what he is offering is what they want or even a good thing is a secondary issue, at present he has convinced enough people that despite his own flaws he is delivering or trying to deliver that.
The big question is simply how long he can keep that up, particularly as we know he has failed to deliver on a pretty major promise, and the longer he fails to deliver on it will it have an effect? So far, his failure to deliver has worked positively for him, in polling at least. Labour and co had better hope that does not continue or he really will smash them at a GE, and bottom line is we cannot avoid one of those for too much longer - not when every party in the House is on record saying they want want soon, even if they disagree on when.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else, the shame is that this clown in no 10 would be toast with a half decent opposition leader. The tories are clearly going to trash all the regulations on employment etc and ensure their backers and themselves make a fortune while you leavers celebrate taking back control with an electoral system that is a joke.
You forgot feast of the firstborns. The top priority of an incoming majority Tory government.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else
That is so lazy, as lazy as thinking everyone who backs Labour is a marxist. Millions upon millions of people support both of them, they clearly believe their chosen side cares about more than just a narrow party clique, or base support, since both get more votes than merely from that base. The Tories' incompetence over the past years is pretty damning, and Boris is awful in my opinion, but pretending a lack of understanding why people might back either side, or that the people on that side are just self centred, essentially evil, is just a way of making ourselves feel better.
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
That's true, and bodes illl for us either way, especially since both Leave and Remain are currently peddling it, with 'Get Brexit Done' and 'Stop the madness' either outright slogans or accurate summations of the positions.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else
That is so lazy, as lazy as thinking everyone who backs Labour is a marxist. Millions upon millions of people support both of them, they clearly believe their chosen side cares about more than just a narrow party clique, or base support, since both get more votes than merely from that base. The Tories' incompetence over the past years is pretty damning, and Boris is awful in my opinion, but pretending a lack of understanding why people might back either side, or that the people on that side are just self centred, essentially evil, is just a way of making ourselves feel better.
No, they really only care about their own and they only care about consoling the levers of power at any level. They need control of local government to make sure their paymasters get the planning consents they want and ant other benefits that accrue.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else, the shame is that this clown in no 10 would be toast with a half decent opposition leader. The tories are clearly going to trash all the regulations on employment etc and ensure their backers and themselves make a fortune while you leavers celebrate taking back control with an electoral system that is a joke.
You forgot feast of the firstborns. The top priority of an incoming majority Tory government.
Anything is possible with Johnson
Don't be silly - Boris is a firstborn, he wouldn't harm them. It's the last borns that are at risk. More tender.
The longer it cowers the more damage will be done to the opposition. If in 3 months the gap is even bigger then what do you propose? Keep cowering until 2022?
Presumably you'd like us to accede to the election and watch Johnson get his landslide. That might be the present - it might not be the future.
We'll see.
Shout this message from the rooftops, stodge. Make the whole country know that its you and only you that are stopping Brexit, and a functioning parliament. OWN IT, sister.
Tories only ever worry about their own they don’t give a shit about anybody else
That is so lazy, as lazy as thinking everyone who backs Labour is a marxist. Millions upon millions of people support both of them, they clearly believe their chosen side cares about more than just a narrow party clique, or base support, since both get more votes than merely from that base. The Tories' incompetence over the past years is pretty damning, and Boris is awful in my opinion, but pretending a lack of understanding why people might back either side, or that the people on that side are just self centred, essentially evil, is just a way of making ourselves feel better.
No, they really only care about their own and they only care about consoling the levers of power at any level. They need control of local government to make sure their paymasters get the planning consents they want and ant other benefits that accrue.
That's absolute bollocks, and proves my point that you are just trying to make yourself feel better but making an entire mass of people evil.
And I must say I feel very bad for planning officers up and down this country. People are so quick to declare, so easily, that the entire system is completely corrupt at every level, from officer to member.
Well quite. But the local elections that year showed that there was at least something in the huge Tory leads.
If we enter a crazy world where polling day was the first day of the campaign, I have no doubt that May would be sitting on a majority of 60+ right now.
The campaign was what did for her. And yes many polls still got the result wrong, but they had tightened come Election Day).
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
Yeah, right. They've been worn down. Who did that?
I've always thought Trump would escape thanks to the Senate, but when the number of offences starts to rack up into the double figures it doesn't look so straightforward.
If it turns ou the secret to defeat the UK airforce is to have some wind turbines in your country then the UK airforce is pretty shit.
It is the interference with low level radar that is the issue Alistair, or rather coverage at low level.
The Ministry of Defence are the most frequent objectors to wind turbine applications on land for this reason (and for interfering with rainfall radar when the Met Office were part of the Ministry of Defence), but I didn't think that offshore wind turbines were so much of a concern.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
You have to be living on Mars for the last few years not to know him.
The people know him, they will vote for him anyway.
They know Boris Johnson, sure. Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is something new. So far enough people are liking him just fine. But can he keep that up? In a way it does not matter if we think he can or not - at the moment Labour at least have to play for time and hope he cannot, as they would be the ones who suffer from moving too quickly.
I've always thought Trump would escape thanks to the Senate, but when the number of offences starts to rack up into the double figures it doesn't look so straightforward.
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
Yeah, right. They've been worn down. Who did that?
Oh dear, it's back to the blame game. I'll blame the Leavers, you'll blame the Remainers and we'll go off round the same old tedious circle once again.
I'm not playing anymore and neither should you.
I would be happy to lave the EU with a WA and a future political and economic relationship which works for the people of this country. I don't think we have this at the moment - May's WA was better than Johnson's and with hindsight could and perhaps should have been accepted.
If it turns ou the secret to defeat the UK airforce is to have some wind turbines in your country then the UK airforce is pretty shit.
It is the interference with low level radar that is the issue Alistair, or rather coverage at low level.
The Ministry of Defence are the most frequent objectors to wind turbine applications on land for this reason (and for interfering with rainfall radar when the Met Office were part of the Ministry of Defence), but I didn't think that offshore wind turbines were so much of a concern.
Are you saying it was only the onshore ones that made waves?
I've always thought Trump would escape thanks to the Senate, but when the number of offences starts to rack up into the double figures it doesn't look so straightforward.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
You have to be living on Mars for the last few years not to know him.
The people know him, they will vote for him anyway.
They know Boris Johnson, sure. Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is something new. So far enough people are liking him just fine. But can he keep that up? In a way it does not matter if we think he can or not - at the moment Labour at least have to play for time and hope he cannot, as they would be the ones who suffer from moving too quickly.
OTOH Labour will be the ones who suffer from moving too slow too.
If Labour are not for taking the Tories out of office what are they for? If Labour don't think they can win an election and publicly acknowledge that then who is going to flock to them? There's a reason the Lib Dems were most successful when opposing the Tories with a "Winning Here" tagline.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
You have to be living on Mars for the last few years not to know him.
The people know him, they will vote for him anyway.
They know Boris Johnson, sure. Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is something new. So far enough people are liking him just fine. But can he keep that up? In a way it does not matter if we think he can or not - at the moment Labour at least have to play for time and hope he cannot, as they would be the ones who suffer from moving too quickly.
OTOH Labour will be the ones who suffer from moving too slow too.
If Labour are not for taking the Tories out of office what are they for? If Labour don't think they can win an election and publicly acknowledge that then who is going to flock to them? There's a reason the Lib Dems were most successful when opposing the Tories with a "Winning Here" tagline.
There are risks to either approach, certainly. Banking on 'letting him stew' working is implicitly giving him a green light for whatever chaos he wants to try for in the meantime. But voters can shift quickly and practice selective memory of how we got to places, so long as they like the present position - another reason Labour's leadership do nto seem especially worried.
But since Corbyn has been refusing an election the Con lead has got bigger and bigger.
If this keeps going on Con could reach 50% by Spring.
Quite possibly.
But I think time works against Johnson.
Because people will get to know him a little better.
You have to be living on Mars for the last few years not to know him.
The people know him, they will vote for him anyway.
They know Boris Johnson, sure. Boris Johnson as Prime Minister is something new. So far enough people are liking him just fine. But can he keep that up? In a way it does not matter if we think he can or not - at the moment Labour at least have to play for time and hope he cannot, as they would be the ones who suffer from moving too quickly.
OTOH Labour will be the ones who suffer from moving too slow too.
If Labour are not for taking the Tories out of office what are they for? If Labour don't think they can win an election and publicly acknowledge that then who is going to flock to them? There's a reason the Lib Dems were most successful when opposing the Tories with a "Winning Here" tagline.
There are risks to either approach, certainly. Banking on 'letting him stew' working is implicitly giving him a green light for whatever chaos he wants to try for in the meantime. But voters can shift quickly and practice selective memory of how we got to places, so long as they like the present position - another reason Labour's leadership do nto seem especially worried.
It also gives him a "get out of jail free" card in that anything that he can't do or goes wrong can be blamed on Parliamentary intransigence and the opposition hiding from the voters.
There's no reason to assume he will get less popular or Labour more popular. Cowardice is not an attractive trait.
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
Yeah, right. They've been worn down. Who did that?
Oh dear, it's back to the blame game. I'll blame the Leavers, you'll blame the Remainers and we'll go off round the same old tedious circle once again.
I'm not playing anymore and neither should you.
I would be happy to lave the EU with a WA and a future political and economic relationship which works for the people of this country. I don't think we have this at the moment - May's WA was better than Johnson's and with hindsight could and perhaps should have been accepted.
Okay, blaming doesn't get anyone anywhere. And no-one could disagree with your penultimate sentence. But reasonable people can disagree with your last sentence. The question is: what is the best way forward now? Get the WAIB passed and move swiftly on to the future relationship or continue to delay and prevaricate, and call an election?
If it turns ou the secret to defeat the UK airforce is to have some wind turbines in your country then the UK airforce is pretty shit.
It is the interference with low level radar that is the issue Alistair, or rather coverage at low level.
The Ministry of Defence are the most frequent objectors to wind turbine applications on land for this reason (and for interfering with rainfall radar when the Met Office were part of the Ministry of Defence), but I didn't think that offshore wind turbines were so much of a concern.
Are you saying it was only the onshore ones that made waves?
Okay, blaming doesn't get anyone anywhere. And no-one could disagree with your penultimate sentence. But reasonable people can disagree with your last sentence. The question is: what is the best way forward now? Get the WAIB passed and move swiftly on to the future relationship or continue to delay and prevaricate, and call an election?
First, thanks you for the kind word.
In response to your question, I'd say both and neither by which I mean:
If I were advising Corbyn, Swinson and Sturgeon (and the other opposition party leaders) I'd say it was time to take Brexit off the table as a political football.
Offer to support the WA (while noting its issues vis-a-vis Northern Ireland) and suggesting re-enforcing commitments to environmental protection that were in the May WA. Get the WA passed and enter transition on 31/1/20.
Offer to provide negotiators for a cross-party approach to the PD and the future trade deal with the EU while acknowledging the process may take into 2021 to complete and, once agreed, agree to facilitate its passage through Parliament.
In exchange, Boris does not seek an election until May 2022 and concentrates on the other issues affecting the country which can perhaps be approached in a more cross-party and less adversarial atmosphere.
In other words, a lot less heat and a lot more light as we move away from Brexit toward the other issues such as social care which may require a genuine consensual approach.
Not helpful if that is what the voters want too.....
What do the voters want? The WA - hardly. May's WA - nope. They just want it "over with" - the Overwithers now run the country. They are tired and they want this done.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
Yeah, right. They've been worn down. Who did that?
Oh dear, it's back to the blame game. I'll blame the Leavers, you'll blame the Remainers and we'll go off round the same old tedious circle once again.
I'm not playing anymore and neither should you.
I would be happy to lave the EU with a WA and a future political and economic relationship which works for the people of this country. I don't think we have this at the moment - May's WA was better than Johnson's and with hindsight could and perhaps should have been accepted.
Okay, blaming doesn't get anyone anywhere. And no-one could disagree with your penultimate sentence. But reasonable people can disagree with your last sentence. The question is: what is the best way forward now? Get the WAIB passed and move swiftly on to the future relationship or continue to delay and prevaricate, and call an election?
Referendum between the May and Johnson deals.
1. It's not a repeat of the 2016 referendum and neither result would overturn the first referendum. 2. Both deals avoid the disruption of leaving without a deal. 3. The deals have their merits and demerits - there's a genuine choice between them.
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
What’s worse for Corbyn , the Tories going into an election after Brexit of before.
Difficult decision .
After. Before has its problems, the Tories could clean up the Brexit vote and keep Tory remain voters satisfied with some kind of deal, but it at least has the chance of BXP spoiling the Tory party, and the inherent strength of the Labour brand plus the hope of Corbyn repeating his campaigning skills of last time, resulting in either mitigating the bad result, or who knows even preventing a Tory win. That may not be considered likely, but it has a chance.
Conversely, if the election takes place after Brexit what harm is there for angry Remain voters in voting for the most passionately remain party, the LDs? The Tories will already have achieved a terrible thing, off the back of Labour rebel votes no less, so more chance someone decides they can punish Labour?
Before but for a different reason - the outlet for remainers will be LDs, squeezing the Labour vote massively. After Brexit, the LD's will not be as attractive since many people will have given up on the outcome.
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Wow, Ruth Davidson has gone with "I have not as yet broken the MSP code so I'm fine despite my job providing a near unlimited number of oppertunities to break the code"
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Corbyn in 2017 picked up huge numbers of votes from millennials and remainers who pinned their hopes on him for a reversal of the referendum result. Illusions have since been shattered.
May simultaneously turned swathes of older Tories away with her care plans which were (wrongly in my view) turned in to Dementia Tax. Not a mistake that will be repeated.
She was also utterly dreadful in the campaign. Nobody would accuse Boris of not being a good campaigner.
I think 2017 was the perfect storm for Corbyn and the Tories managed to shoot both their feet off.
"It's time for real change" is a very strong message.
Without explicitly saying the words, it manages to convey to leavers in deprived parts of the UK that while Boris may well deliver Brexit, he won't deliver the change they're looking for. It will be business as usual with the Conservatives, austerity, tax cuts for the rich, etc.
Prior to the 2017 most polls were showing leads in the region of 16-19% with just 2 exceptional polls at 21%.
Recently there's been a number of poll leads 13-15%
There's not that big of a gap between 13-15% and 16-19% and if Labour continue to hide behind the sofa it wouldn't surprise me if we see 16-19% leads before much longer. What's the next step then, geniuses?
'It's time for real change' is bog standard, a near universal slogan for election time for opposition, with the minor adjustment that other promises for change were not 'real' I guess. The other is an invitation for people as a movement to deliver change, or even to deliver not change if they want as it is geniusly non specific, while the future reference makes it immediately seem more epochal a choice.
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Its no longer that much bigger a lead!
No but the Tories will have two major disadvantages which they did not have in 2017
* they will have to campaign in favour of Johnson's deal, which will come under detailed scrutiny and will be found to have many faults;
* Johnson's character will become an issue, many people, women in particular, will recoil from supporting him for reasons entirely unrelated to Brexit. My wife is a case in point - she was quite supportive of Theresa May, who she thought was doing her best in difficult circumstances. But her opinion of Johnson cannot be repeated on a family programme, and that is due to his attitude to women.
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Corbyn in 2017 picked up huge numbers of votes from millennials and remainers who pinned their hopes on him for a reversal of the referendum result. Illusions have since been shattered.
May simultaneously turned swathes of older Tories away with her care plans which were (wrongly in my view) turned in to Dementia Tax. Not a mistake that will be repeated.
She was also utterly dreadful in the campaign. Nobody would accuse Boris of not being a good campaigner.
I think 2017 was the perfect storm for Corbyn and the Tories managed to shoot both their feet off.
While that is true the assumption that the Tories won't repeat the mistakes they made seems odd when the assumption is also that Labour will make the same mistakes, and get picked up for them this time.
But if it costs more to run a natural gas power station than to build renewables your scheme would cost the consumers more. Also burning gas does produce CO2.
Natural gas is still the best of the bunch to use when renewables go down:
Pounds of CO2 emitted per million British thermal units (Btu) of energy for various fuels
For power generation we tend to use kg/kWh - using natural gas you have to define the technology, CCGT or OCGT.
We need decarbonised despatchable power. Natural gas plus CCS - either post-combustion on a conventional CCGT or pre-combustion with hydrogen as an energy storage vector is likely to be the way we do it in the UK.
CCS with current technology is basically a waste of time and energy. It in no way justifies keeping coal plants open, and isn’t worth adding (either from an economic or CO2 reduction standpoint) to the CCGT plants which will be needed in the short to medium term.
At a later point, when there is a surplus of renewables at very low to zero marginal cost, and when the technologies have matured, it will make a great deal of sense to produce artificial hydrocarbons from CO2 feedstock for both energy storage and chemical industry precursors but that’s one to two decades away. And of course by then, the other storage technologies will have improved considerably, too.
Pointless obsession with C02 while a)China+India build more and more coal plants weekly and b)Uk emits a tiny fraction of the worlds C02. Why make the grid more expensive, unstable and inefficient when the primary goal(if achieved) will make ZERO difference??
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Its no longer that much bigger a lead!
No but the Tories will have two major disadvantages which they did not have in 2017
* they will have to campaign in favour of Johnson's deal, which will come under detailed scrutiny and will be found to have many faults;
* Johnson's character will become an issue, many people, women in particular, will recoil from supporting him for reasons entirely unrelated to Brexit. My wife is a case in point - she was quite supportive of Theresa May, who she thought was doing her best in difficult circumstances. But her opinion of Johnson cannot be repeated on a family programme, and that is due to his attitude to women.
Does he have a notable and discreditable "attitude" to women? I realise he is pro shagging them, but absent any evidence that they are not pro being shagged, so what?
What’s worse for Corbyn , the Tories going into an election after Brexit of before.
Difficult decision .
After. Before has its problems, the Tories could clean up the Brexit vote and keep Tory remain voters satisfied with some kind of deal, but it at least has the chance of BXP spoiling the Tory party, and the inherent strength of the Labour brand plus the hope of Corbyn repeating his campaigning skills of last time, resulting in either mitigating the bad result, or who knows even preventing a Tory win. That may not be considered likely, but it has a chance.
Conversely, if the election takes place after Brexit what harm is there for angry Remain voters in voting for the most passionately remain party, the LDs? The Tories will already have achieved a terrible thing, off the back of Labour rebel votes no less, so more chance someone decides they can punish Labour?
Before but for a different reason - the outlet for remainers will be LDs, squeezing the Labour vote massively. After Brexit, the LD's will not be as attractive since many people will have given up on the outcome.
An interesting theory, one which many people hold. I think Labour will hold up before Brexit by people holding their noses and voting tactically, otherwise Brexit might happen. I just don't think remainers will shoot themselves in the foot by mass voting for the LDs.
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Its no longer that much bigger a lead!
But if there isn’t vote for an election on Monday what is Boris plan for Tuesday and the rest of the week. 😟
The interest about how Mays huge lead disappeared is that it’s very unlikely you’d get a swathe of Tory to Labour switchers .
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
Indeed. It's surprising that Tories on here are so gung ho about an election - they lost a much bigger lead than the one they now have during the 2017 campaign. And who's to say it could not happen again?
Its no longer that much bigger a lead!
No but the Tories will have two major disadvantages which they did not have in 2017
* they will have to campaign in favour of Johnson's deal, which will come under detailed scrutiny and will be found to have many faults;
* Johnson's character will become an issue, many people, women in particular, will recoil from supporting him for reasons entirely unrelated to Brexit. My wife is a case in point - she was quite supportive of Theresa May, who she thought was doing her best in difficult circumstances. But her opinion of Johnson cannot be repeated on a family programme, and that is due to his attitude to women.
Does he have a notable and discreditable "attitude" to women? I realise he is pro shagging them, but absent any evidence that they are not pro being shagged, so what?
Cheating, abandonment of children, living with someone young enough to be his daughter.
And he is a compulsive liar - he seems unable to stop himself, as when he turned round and told a TV camera that there were no media in the room or that he had sent a photocopy of the Benn Act to Brussels when the document actually sent was in a different font and type size. If he lies about trivial issues such as this can anyone trust anything he says?
Comments
Phew.
And anything that would normally get people angry with the government on he has the perfect foil - "zombie Parliament" and its refusal to have an election.
All sorts can happen in a GE campaign, but it helps to start off on the right foot rather than looking like you’re absolutely petrified of the prospect.
To simply whimper and cry behind the sofa isn't pretty.
Yougov implies a majority of 42.
How is the anger to be sustained with time? Answer, it won't. The opposition simply have to wait it out for now. As it becomes clear Johnson has no answers, his support will start to drain away.
Ask me again in three months.
If there had been collaboration and the ultimate are deal had been poor then you might have had a moral argument for a deal vs remain vote.
But your ilk has pissed that away
Well, I guess that settles any question about the Monday vote at least.
He has a failsafe excuse for everything that happens now. To get this done, I need an election. This has happened because we haven’t got a majority and the opposition won’t allow me to have an election. I would do that, but I can’t because I need an election.
I don’t think it will have the effect you hope it will have.
The Opposition needs to pick its moment which clearly isn't now.
Its an answer to literally everything.
It's not the job of the Opposition to make life easy for the Government and at the moment the Opposition has a modicum of control. If Boris thinks he can't govern, he can always resign.
If he hasn't got the numbers perhaps he should build some bridges to get the numbers but that doesn't work for him - he wants a majority and a flock of sheep in parliament who will go wherever he tells them.
We'll see.
Whichever you choose isn't locked in forever, if another party wins the next election they can change things.
I think rejecting the poll in September was a terrible mistake by Labour and the damage is already done. Rejecting it again now will be another self-inflicted error.
Conversely, if the election takes place after Brexit what harm is there for angry Remain voters in voting for the most passionately remain party, the LDs? The Tories will already have achieved a terrible thing, off the back of Labour rebel votes no less, so more chance someone decides they can punish Labour?
I do think Johnson's coalition will break down more swiftly once he is in Government as all the promises and commitments he has made come back to haunt him and unlike now he will have nowhere to hide and no one else to blame.
That doesn't mean (before I'm jumped on by the pro-Johnson brigade) that I want the country to fail or do badly outside the EU but I am very concerned the promises Johnson has made and the clear commitment in his WA to weaken environmental protection and workers' rights will cause a lot of problems for some people.
I don't like him, I don't trust him and I think he is more interested in taking power for and unto himself than he is running the country.
I didn't often agree with Margaret Thatcher but I never thought she was ever doing other than what she thought was right - I disagreed vehemently on the means but not on the ends.
Doesn't make them right.
It's also my experience tired people will agree to anything if the conditions are right and will run to anyone who promises an end to it whatever that end actually means.
The big question is simply how long he can keep that up, particularly as we know he has failed to deliver on a pretty major promise, and the longer he fails to deliver on it will it have an effect? So far, his failure to deliver has worked positively for him, in polling at least. Labour and co had better hope that does not continue or he really will smash them at a GE, and bottom line is we cannot avoid one of those for too much longer - not when every party in the House is on record saying they want want soon, even if they disagree on when.
And I must say I feel very bad for planning officers up and down this country. People are so quick to declare, so easily, that the entire system is completely corrupt at every level, from officer to member.
If we enter a crazy world where polling day was the first day of the campaign, I have no doubt that May would be sitting on a majority of 60+ right now.
The campaign was what did for her. And yes many polls still got the result wrong, but they had tightened come Election Day).
The people know him, they will vote for him anyway.
I've always thought Trump would escape thanks to the Senate, but when the number of offences starts to rack up into the double figures it doesn't look so straightforward.
https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1188085028632367105
And that, @nichomar is why people continue to support the wittering imbecile Johnson, however difficult it may be for us as non-Tory voters to accept.
I'm not playing anymore and neither should you.
I would be happy to lave the EU with a WA and a future political and economic relationship which works for the people of this country. I don't think we have this at the moment - May's WA was better than Johnson's and with hindsight could and perhaps should have been accepted.
If Labour are not for taking the Tories out of office what are they for? If Labour don't think they can win an election and publicly acknowledge that then who is going to flock to them? There's a reason the Lib Dems were most successful when opposing the Tories with a "Winning Here" tagline.
So polls that showed her with 20 + leads clearly had both sampling and turnout errors.
Not sure the same will happen this time but still on the face of it Labour are closer to Johnson than they were to May .
There's no reason to assume he will get less popular or Labour more popular. Cowardice is not an attractive trait.
And no-one could disagree with your penultimate sentence. But reasonable people can disagree with your last sentence. The question is: what is the best way forward now? Get the WAIB passed and move swiftly on to the future relationship or continue to delay and prevaricate, and call an election?
https://youtu.be/MMiKyfd6hA0
In response to your question, I'd say both and neither by which I mean:
If I were advising Corbyn, Swinson and Sturgeon (and the other opposition party leaders) I'd say it was time to take Brexit off the table as a political football.
Offer to support the WA (while noting its issues vis-a-vis Northern Ireland) and suggesting re-enforcing commitments to environmental protection that were in the May WA. Get the WA passed and enter transition on 31/1/20.
Offer to provide negotiators for a cross-party approach to the PD and the future trade deal with the EU while acknowledging the process may take into 2021 to complete and, once agreed, agree to facilitate its passage through Parliament.
In exchange, Boris does not seek an election until May 2022 and concentrates on the other issues affecting the country which can perhaps be approached in a more cross-party and less adversarial atmosphere.
In other words, a lot less heat and a lot more light as we move away from Brexit toward the other issues such as social care which may require a genuine consensual approach.
1. It's not a repeat of the 2016 referendum and neither result would overturn the first referendum.
2. Both deals avoid the disruption of leaving without a deal.
3. The deals have their merits and demerits - there's a genuine choice between them.
May simultaneously turned swathes of older Tories away with her care plans which were (wrongly in my view) turned in to Dementia Tax. Not a mistake that will be repeated.
She was also utterly dreadful in the campaign. Nobody would accuse Boris of not being a good campaigner.
I think 2017 was the perfect storm for Corbyn and the Tories managed to shoot both their feet off.
Without explicitly saying the words, it manages to convey to leavers in deprived parts of the UK that while Boris may well deliver Brexit, he won't deliver the change they're looking for. It will be business as usual with the Conservatives, austerity, tax cuts for the rich, etc.
Recently there's been a number of poll leads 13-15%
There's not that big of a gap between 13-15% and 16-19% and if Labour continue to hide behind the sofa it wouldn't surprise me if we see 16-19% leads before much longer. What's the next step then, geniuses?
'It's time for real change' is bog standard, a near universal slogan for election time for opposition, with the minor adjustment that other promises for change were not 'real' I guess. The other is an invitation for people as a movement to deliver change, or even to deliver not change if they want as it is geniusly non specific, while the future reference makes it immediately seem more epochal a choice.
* they will have to campaign in favour of Johnson's deal, which will come under detailed scrutiny and will be found to have many faults;
* Johnson's character will become an issue, many people, women in particular, will recoil from supporting him for reasons entirely unrelated to Brexit. My wife is a case in point - she was quite supportive of Theresa May, who she thought was doing her best in difficult circumstances. But her opinion of Johnson cannot be repeated on a family programme, and that is due to his attitude to women.
Why make the grid more expensive, unstable and inefficient when the primary goal(if achieved) will make ZERO difference??
CON: 40% (+3)
LAB: 24% (-)
LDEM: 15% (-1)
BREX: 10% (-2)
via @OpiniumResearch, 23 - 25 Oct
Chgs. w/ 17 Oct
And he is a compulsive liar - he seems unable to stop himself, as when he turned round and told a TV camera that there were no media in the room or that he had sent a photocopy of the Benn Act to Brussels when the document actually sent was in a different font and type size. If he lies about trivial issues such as this can anyone trust anything he says?