It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
I'm going by BBC reports, Philip, but of course he could resign as an alternative. I understood however that he had indicated he would not resign, ergo....
Exactly there's alternatives.
He's simply said he doesn't want to implement this proposed law. He's NOT said he's prepared to break the law though. I can think of at least 6 alternative options.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
He said just yesterday he'd rather be dead in a ditch than comply with this law!
That's not saying he is prepared to break the law! There are lots of alternatives to it.
It's saying exactly that. Saying you'd rather die in a ditch than do something is simply a strongly worded way of saying you won't do it. Now, he may very well be lying (he very often does), but he's still plainly saying he's prepared to break the law.
No he's not!
He has multiple options available to him, breaking the law is just one of them.
If you say you'd rather die in a ditch than do something, you're saying you don't intend to do it under any circumstances. Any other interpretation is ridiculous.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
No it can't.
Parliament will be prorogued. If Boris talks about an election, people can say just recall Parliament...
Except that it would be prorogued because the opposition had not once but twice rejected an election.
And he could on Tuesday if someone says that say "OK, commit to an election and I'll recall Parliament specifically to pass an election motion".
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
Brilliant, they've found an even worse form of hard Brexit, where not only do we crash out, but we do so after really pissing off the EU.
So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation: (1) Quite good for Boris (2) Very good for Boris or (3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall order
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeks
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
So, yes, it doesn't matter if the Tories lose Guildford IF they can win Gateshead and Grimsby. And things that would once have badly damaged a prine minister -- his minister brother resigning, a Cabinet minister following, etc etc - no longer count for much, if they count for anything, because chaos is expected, and priced in. IT'S A REVOLUTION.
I didn't vote for a revolution. Revolutions are bad. Very bad.
I voted for a recalibration of our relationship with our European neighbours and an orderly transition to a rational but more detached state in future.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
There have been times when Commissioners have been imprisoned (an Italian) and died in office (several), and at those times the Commission has been one below the statutory minimum. It did not cause the EU to collapse. If we didn't appoint a Commissioner I suspect the result would be... Nothing.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
He said just yesterday he'd rather be dead in a ditch than comply with this law!
That's not saying he is prepared to break the law! There are lots of alternatives to it.
It's saying exactly that. Saying you'd rather die in a ditch than do something is simply a strongly worded way of saying you won't do it. Now, he may very well be lying (he very often does), but he's still plainly saying he's prepared to break the law.
No he's not!
He has multiple options available to him, breaking the law is just one of them.
If you say you'd rather die in a ditch than do something, you're saying you don't intend to do it under any circumstances. Any other interpretation is ridiculous.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
Quite.
He hasnt said anything of the sort,
Gove wouldn't commit to abide by the bill when asked by Marr last Sunday.
And Boris has said that he would die in a ditch before he would ask for an extension. So if the law requires him to ask for one...???
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
No it can't.
Parliament will be prorogued. If Boris talks about an election, people can say just recall Parliament...
Except that it would be prorogued because the opposition had not once but twice rejected an election.
And he could on Tuesday if someone says that say "OK, commit to an election and I'll recall Parliament specifically to pass an election motion".
He can't do the second bit - Parliament isn't in recess it's physically closed until the date the proroguing finishes (October 14th)...
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
There have been times when Commissioners have been imprisoned (an Italian) and died in office (several), and at those times the Commission has been one below the statutory minimum. It did not cause the EU to collapse. If we didn't appoint a Commissioner I suspect the result would be... Nothing.
Indeed. The way to piss off the EU would be to be vetoing urgent legislation, but AFAIK there is nothing coming up we can veto.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
He said just yesterday he'd rather be dead in a ditch than comply with this law!
That's not saying he is prepared to break the law! There are lots of alternatives to it.
It's saying exactly that. Saying you'd rather die in a ditch than do something is simply a strongly worded way of saying you won't do it. Now, he may very well be lying (he very often does), but he's still plainly saying he's prepared to break the law.
No he's not!
He has multiple options available to him, breaking the law is just one of them.
If you say you'd rather die in a ditch than do something, you're saying you don't intend to do it under any circumstances. Any other interpretation is ridiculous.
I can think of at least 6 interpretations.
The fact you can't is a lack of your imagination.
All of them as ridiculous and dishonest as your hero.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
HYUFD - at this rate they will have resigned and defected. If the one nation group of 100 walk what are you going to do them.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
No it can't.
Parliament will be prorogued. If Boris talks about an election, people can say just recall Parliament...
Except that it would be prorogued because the opposition had not once but twice rejected an election.
And he could on Tuesday if someone says that say "OK, commit to an election and I'll recall Parliament specifically to pass an election motion".
He can't do the second bit - Parliament isn't in recess it's physically closed until the date the proroguing finishes (October 14th)...
Somebody said yesterday today that HMQ could summon Parliament sooner on the advice of the PM.
If Parliament can't be recalled then why would people say to recall Parliament?
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
To be fair, most of the jumping up and down has been about @Philip_Thompson 's suggestion that the Queen will refuse assent to the Benn Bill.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
He's said he is prepared to break the law though, hasn't he? That's the promotion of anarchy.
Has he?
Can you give me a source for that please?
He said just yesterday he'd rather be dead in a ditch than comply with this law!
That's not saying he is prepared to break the law! There are lots of alternatives to it.
It's saying exactly that. Saying you'd rather die in a ditch than do something is simply a strongly worded way of saying you won't do it. Now, he may very well be lying (he very often does), but he's still plainly saying he's prepared to break the law.
No he's not!
He has multiple options available to him, breaking the law is just one of them.
If you say you'd rather die in a ditch than do something, you're saying you don't intend to do it under any circumstances. Any other interpretation is ridiculous.
I can think of at least 6 interpretations.
The fact you can't is a lack of your imagination.
All of them as ridiculous and dishonest as your hero.
You don't even know what they all are, so that's some impressive mind-reading.
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
Brilliant, they've found an even worse form of hard Brexit, where not only do we crash out, but we do so after really pissing off the EU.
These threats are empty though surely, since if push comes to shove, the opposition can simply move into 10 Downing Street.
Foxy. You may remember that I asked some questions a few months ago about my brother’s oesophageal cancer. Just to say that he died peacefully today in a hospice surrounded by his friends. Our mother was able to speak to him and then he slipped away. 63 was too young but in the end it was a good death.
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
There have been times when Commissioners have been imprisoned (an Italian) and died in office (several), and at those times the Commission has been one below the statutory minimum. It did not cause the EU to collapse. If we didn't appoint a Commissioner I suspect the result would be... Nothing.
Generally the best way with cunning plans is to not leak them to the press, or talk about them on telly.
If you told me that Boris' SpAd was Baldrick or the remaining Chuckle Brother, rather than Galaxy Brain Dom, I'd be more willing to believe you.
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
Brilliant, they've found an even worse form of hard Brexit, where not only do we crash out, but we do so after really pissing off the EU.
I think that's already happened! And the traffic on the pissing-off-front has not only been one-way.
My mother in law is half German. The Barnier/Juncker/Verhofstadt approach is by no means universally admired in europe....
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
And...summarily taken around the back and dispatched with a clean shot to the apex of the neck Commissar. Anti revolutionary comrades Sir are a virus that require elimination for the good of the People
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
Brilliant, they've found an even worse form of hard Brexit, where not only do we crash out, but we do so after really pissing off the EU.
These threats are empty though surely, since if push comes to shove, the opposition can simply move into 10 Downing Street.
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
The Tories need to stop airing their tactics in public, it just gives opponents the heads up.
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
Oh, I live in Los Angeles most of the time. But I'm heading back to London now
Some stonking polling leads tonight for Boris in addition to a salutatory reminder of how important it is to get Brexit done.
Brexit done will mean a dead Labour party and, with a little good fortune, an independent Scotland.
Tory maj/largest party for many GE's in to the future.
It was obvious to anyone that the Leave vote was going to Boris over the last few days.I spoke to various Brexit Party supporters who were switching to support him and I thought the Tories might be heading up to 40 per cent.I guess that a number of Tory remainers have gone to to the Lib Dems to offset some of the gains.The Brexit Party vote will be squeezed into single figures because the candidate quality is very patchy and there is no ground game which means the Tory vote will actually be several points higher than what the polls show.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
HYUFD - at this rate they will have resigned and defected. If the one nation group of 100 walk what are you going to do them.
If they prefer further extension to Brexit Deal or No Deal hand them all LD membership cards and tell them not to forget to shut the door on their way out!
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
It is not a question of whether or not the law should be obeyed but rather what the law is. There were lots of people on here claiming the suspension of Parliament was illegal. They are strangely silent now the courts have said it is not. Now everyone is jumping up and down sbout Boris breaking the law by ignoring Parliament. Of course he has done no such thing as yet. Until he does it is just so much Remainer hot air.
To be fair, most of the jumping up and down has been about @Philip_Thompson 's suggestion that the Queen will refuse assent to the Benn Bill.
To be fair I never said the Queen would.
I said that IMHO the PM should advise her to do so, and that constitutionally the Queen follows the advise of her ministers - and that the Commons could overturn that decision by VONCing Boris and a new PM could advise assent.
If assent were to be denied then it wouldn't be the law [or would be after a new PM gave it].
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
HYUFD - at this rate they will have resigned and defected. If the one nation group of 100 walk what are you going to do them.
Hand them all LD membership cards and tell them not to forget to shut the door on their way out!
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
Some tidbits from the mail on Sunday Leadsom confirms a candidate will stand against Bercow and says he has flagrantly defied the will of the people! Also that one plan is to refuse to appoint a commissioner after October and leave the EU not legally constituted then when they vote to reduce to 27 to counter that, veto it forcing them to kick us out
There have been times when Commissioners have been imprisoned (an Italian) and died in office (several), and at those times the Commission has been one below the statutory minimum. It did not cause the EU to collapse. If we didn't appoint a Commissioner I suspect the result would be... Nothing.
Generally the best way with cunning plans is to not leak them to the press, or talk about them on telly.
If you told me that Boris' SpAd was Baldrick or the remaining Chuckle Brother, rather than Galaxy Brain Dom, I'd be more willing to believe you.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
No it can't.
Parliament will be prorogued. If Boris talks about an election, people can say just recall Parliament...
Except that it would be prorogued because the opposition had not once but twice rejected an election.
And he could on Tuesday if someone says that say "OK, commit to an election and I'll recall Parliament specifically to pass an election motion".
He can't do the second bit - Parliament isn't in recess it's physically closed until the date the proroguing finishes (October 14th)...
Somebody said yesterday today that HMQ could summon Parliament sooner on the advice of the PM.
If Parliament can't be recalled then why would people say to recall Parliament?
That's not what Parliament states but hey what would they know..
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
And no doubt the Brexiteer crowd will pop up to blame someone else and the circus continues.
So what's the opinion of the Brexiteers here? Is Amber Rudd's resignation: (1) Quite good for Boris (2) Very good for Boris or (3) Orgasmically good for Boris?
It really isnt any of those. Not least because it makes holding Rudd's seat a tall order
So many people have not grasped what Dom Cummings clearly has grasped, and which I have been banging on about for several weeks
Brexit is a revolution. It's way more than a political upheaval, it's an overturning of everything we understand about British elections, meanwhile, all received political opinions are rendered worthless. The only thing similar to this, in recent UK history, is Scotland post indyref, where Labour completely collapsed after a century of dominance - but Brexit is even bigger than that.
I didn't vote for a revolution. Revolutions are bad. Very bad.
I voted for a recalibration of our relationship with our European neighbours and an orderly transition to a rational but more detached state in future.
Yes you did.
Sorry but if you wanted evolution you should have voted for Cameron's s##t deal and then we would have continued our semi-detached membership that has evolved since we got opt-outs to Maastricht.
Brexit was always going to be revolutionary.
No I didn't. Please don't tell me what I voted for. I know what I voted for. I outlined it on here extensively before the referendum, published in within my blog and campaigned for Leave accordingly.
I voted to Leave the European Union because I was no longer convinced we could meaningfully reform our relationship within it. At no point did I say I wanted to turn the world upside down in its full throated ideological pursuit of a "clean break", including torching the Union, Lords, Monarchy and potentially the rule of law. That's demagogic. And it wasn't always destined to be like that either - it's just got harder and harder to find a sensible compromise over time as both sides have polarised.
Can I also say just how surprised I am that you might post something like that?
You've said, yourself, the distance between you voting to stay or to leave was rather narrow and it was a hard choice for you, that you carefully considered. So I consider this advocacy of it having always been revolution at the eleventh hour somewhat overblown.
If that's really what it ends up to be then I may yet have to end up suspending my support of Brexit pending a sensible alternative, and I say that as someone with precisely no love for the EU whatsoever.
There are things that are even worse, and I'm not going to mindlessly follow my side into the abyss.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a better ring to it
Learnt that while I was up in Scotland, that Potters Bar is now Oyster Card compliant. It's the only station currently marked on the Oyster Card map that I haven't visited/alighted at.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
This is the key point that every Remain campaign has failed to capitalise on. To me it's one of two crucial questions, together with how much further the Liberal D's and Labour will be able to co-operate.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
Looking at that panelbase poll again it's the second recent poll where the changes are significantly greater than the 0% you would expect. Where is that additional 6% Tory vote (for it is going to the Torys in both polls) coming from.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
This would be a positive for the Tories in my view.
It is one thing fighting hard to remain in the face of a referendum result to leave.
It will be quite another to have left and be seen as a party not standing up for the UK's interests against other countries/blocs.
Labour and the LD's would be bending over backwards to give the EU what it wanted in future negotiations and that would be electoral gold for the Tories.
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.
Boris failed - what else matters.
Boris failed because the Remainers in Parliament frustrated him. That is why its critical every Leaver backs the Tories so that the Remainers don't win again.
Easy sales pitch.
Is it?
If Boris thinks he can take my support for granted he's got another thing coming.
Learnt that while I was up in Scotland, that Potters Bar is now Oyster Card compliant. It's the only station currently marked on the Oyster Card map that I haven't visited/alighted at.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
What’s your definition of a working class pleb?
I don't think calling people Plebs will encourage those people (probably former labour now tending BXP voters) towards your party.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
HYUFD - at this rate they will have resigned and defected. If the one nation group of 100 walk what are you going to do them.
Hand them all LD membership cards and tell them not to forget to shut the door on their way out!
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
Brexit isn't over until a decent majority of the population are content with the situation. Three years on the polls have only moved a few percentage points, so there's little reason to expect an widespread outbreak of contentment anytime soon. If anything we are significantly more polarised even as the two sides remain broadly equal in size.
My hunch is that the only reason Brexit will become less salient is because some other problem will have eclipsed it.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
What’s your definition of a working class pleb?
I don't think calling people Plebs will encourage those people (probably former labour now tending BXP voters) towards your party.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
HYUFD - at this rate they will have resigned and defected. If the one nation group of 100 walk what are you going to do them.
Hand them all LD membership cards and tell them not to forget to shut the door on their way out!
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
I don't think that goes far enough. Any member of the Conservatives who voted Leave in the referendum should be expelled from the party at once.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
What’s your definition of a working class pleb?
I don't think calling people Plebs will encourage those people (probably former labour now tending BXP voters) towards your party.
No poll has the SNP alone giving Corbyn Labour a majority, even Panelbase, Corbyn needs the LDs for a majority and Swinson would veto indyref2 and a Corbyn premiership
At this stage we can reasonably set fire to all the polls and let them burn.
Realistically, the Lib Dems would probably tolerate a Corbyn Government but veto any really silly Hard Left economic ideas (so nationalisations and more sumptuary taxes for the wealthy could pass, but any form of expropriation would not.) The price exacted, beyond the second EU referendum that Labour would happily concede anyway, would be PR for Westminster.
I dare say that Swinson would rather not treat with Corbyn at all, but if she finds herself holding the balance of power then she will have to choose between selling her support to Labour on reasonable terms - and Labour won't be forming a Government with anyone other than Corbyn at its head - or decline to support anyone and force yet another General Election that voters really, really would not want.
But we really are getting ahead of ourselves here.
Sorry but if you wanted evolution you should have voted for Cameron's s##t deal and then we would have continued our semi-detached membership that has evolved since we got opt-outs to Maastricht.
Brexit was always going to be revolutionary.
No I didn't. Please don't tell me what I voted for. I know what I voted for. I outlined it on here extensively before the referendum, published in within my blog and campaigned for Leave accordingly.
I voted to Leave the European Union because I was no longer convinced we could meaningfully reform our relationship within it. At no point did I say I wanted to turn the world upside down in its full throated ideological pursuit of a "clean break", including torching the Union, Lords, Monarchy and potentially the rule of law. That's demagogic. And it wasn't always destined to be like that either - it's just got harder and harder to find a sensible compromise over time as both sides have polarised.
Can I also say just how surprised I am that you might post something like that?
You've said, yourself, the distance between you voting to stay or to leave was rather narrow and it was a hard choice for you, that you carefully considered. So I consider this advocacy of it having always been revolution at the eleventh hour somewhat overblown.
If that's really what it ends up to be then I may yet have to end up suspending my support of Brexit pending a sensible alternative, and I say that as someone with precisely no love for the EU whatsoever.
There are things that are even worse, and I'm not going to mindlessly follow my side into the abyss.
Perhaps you and I mean different things by revolution, in which case I apologise I never meant to tell you how you voted, but yes I saw Brexit as a revolutionary act all along which is why I was torn.
But I would consider any Brexit where we leave the Single Market [which was explicitly stated by both sides during the referendum] as revolutionary. Leaving the EU with a transition to a trade deal which is and remains my preference would still be revolutionary from where we are.
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
Oh, I live in Los Angeles most of the time. But I'm heading back to London now
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Given Boris's Do or Die October 31st deadline why should anyone give Boris an election before October 31st?
From Tuesday the delay can be made to look like Boris's fault.
It is not working - action needs to be taken, the extension granted, and then the GE takes place. It would be upto the GONU to decide the date
Why is it that all suggested GONUs dont seem to include any 'Leavers'?
It is a poor name. Temporary Government for Avoidance of No Deal doesn't have a great ring to it though. I suggest the Righteous Entente for Management, Awakening and Inspiration of the Nation.
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
Temporary Government for Treachery Implementation and Betrayal of the Working Class Plebs vote has a nice ring to it
Sorry but if you wanted evolution you should have voted for Cameron's s##t deal and then we would have continued our semi-detached membership that has evolved since we got opt-outs to Maastricht.
Brexit was always going to be revolutionary.
No I didn't. Please don't tell me what I voted for. I know what I voted for. I outlined it on here extensively before the referendum, published in within my blog and campaigned for Leave accordingly.
I voted to Leave the European Union because I was no longer convinced we could meaningfully reform our relationship within it. At no point did I say I wanted to turn the world upside down in its full throated ideological pursuit of a "clean break", including torching the Union, Lords, Monarchy and potentially the rule of law. That's demagogic. And it wasn't always destined to be like that either - it's just got harder and harder to find a sensible compromise over time as both sides have polarised.
Can I also say just how surprised I am that you might post something like that?
You've said, yourself, the distance between you voting to stay or to leave was rather narrow and it was a hard choice for you, that you carefully considered. So I consider this advocacy of it having always been revolution at the eleventh hour somewhat overblown.
If that's really what it ends up to be then I may yet have to end up suspending my support of Brexit pending a sensible alternative, and I say that as someone with precisely no love for the EU whatsoever.
There are things that are even worse, and I'm not going to mindlessly follow my side into the abyss.
Perhaps you and I mean different things by revolution, in which case I apologise I never meant to tell you how you voted, but yes I saw Brexit as a revolutionary act all along which is why I was torn.
But I would consider any Brexit where we leave the Single Market [which was explicitly stated by both sides during the referendum] as revolutionary. Leaving the EU with a transition to a trade deal which is and remains my preference would still be revolutionary from where we are.
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.
Boris failed - what else matters.
Boris failed because the Remainers in Parliament frustrated him. That is why its critical every Leaver backs the Tories so that the Remainers don't win again.
Easy sales pitch.
Is it?
If Boris thinks he can take my support for granted he's got another thing coming.
I respect that.
But if you don't vote for him then that is helping the Remainers win. If you're happy with that then that's your choice and I don't condemn it.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
I don't think that goes far enough. Any member of the Conservatives who voted Leave in the referendum should be expelled from the party at once.
Then they can be the party of the 9% again as they were in the European elections, maybe even ask Theresa back as leader while the remaining 3/4 of the party now joins the Brexit Party.
Good luck trying to win any MPs under FPTP with that though, certainly beyond Theresa and Philip
Especially a leave voting seat where Labour was the opposition..
To be fair, the demographics of Hastings are trending Labour, regardless of the national situation.
And besides it was a swipe at Rudd not a presentation of internal polling. Cant imagine they'd be horrified if the opposition thought they were scared of losing seats either
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
A fight to the death, instead of a compromise - it's what causes Civil Wars.
Comments
He's simply said he doesn't want to implement this proposed law. He's NOT said he's prepared to break the law though. I can think of at least 6 alternative options.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
And he could on Tuesday if someone says that say "OK, commit to an election and I'll recall Parliament specifically to pass an election motion".
The fact you can't is a lack of your imagination.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
If Parliament can't be recalled then why would people say to recall Parliament?
If you told me that Boris' SpAd was Baldrick or the remaining Chuckle Brother, rather than Galaxy Brain Dom, I'd be more willing to believe you.
My mother in law is half German. The Barnier/Juncker/Verhofstadt approach is by no means universally admired in europe....
(Look, it's late, it was the best I could do)
I said that IMHO the PM should advise her to do so, and that constitutionally the Queen follows the advise of her ministers - and that the Commons could overturn that decision by VONCing Boris and a new PM could advise assent.
If assent were to be denied then it wouldn't be the law [or would be after a new PM gave it].
Democracy does rather depend on that, dont you know....?
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
Hide until 2022 ?
It is a "remain government".
As Rudd says, the bloke plainly isn't negotiating and, if you believe his blatant lie when he says he is, then I pity you.
KOD Government.
It is one thing fighting hard to remain in the face of a referendum result to leave.
It will be quite another to have left and be seen as a party not standing up for the UK's interests against other countries/blocs.
Labour and the LD's would be bending over backwards to give the EU what it wanted in future negotiations and that would be electoral gold for the Tories.
If Boris thinks he can take my support for granted he's got another thing coming.
Could Boris get us a deal that is acceptable to Parliament by the 31st? Possibly- but could he win an election immediately afterwards? Doubtful.
Boris's winning strategy is going for bust as being the party of No Deal and unifying the Conservative and Brexit vote under FPTP.
My deepest condolences.
My hunch is that the only reason Brexit will become less salient is because some other problem will have eclipsed it.
Realistically, the Lib Dems would probably tolerate a Corbyn Government but veto any really silly Hard Left economic ideas (so nationalisations and more sumptuary taxes for the wealthy could pass, but any form of expropriation would not.) The price exacted, beyond the second EU referendum that Labour would happily concede anyway, would be PR for Westminster.
I dare say that Swinson would rather not treat with Corbyn at all, but if she finds herself holding the balance of power then she will have to choose between selling her support to Labour on reasonable terms - and Labour won't be forming a Government with anyone other than Corbyn at its head - or decline to support anyone and force yet another General Election that voters really, really would not want.
But we really are getting ahead of ourselves here.
But I would consider any Brexit where we leave the Single Market [which was explicitly stated by both sides during the referendum] as revolutionary. Leaving the EU with a transition to a trade deal which is and remains my preference would still be revolutionary from where we are.
Very possible.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Glad we can keep our conversations respectful.
The WA minus the backstop doesn’t exist.
But if you don't vote for him then that is helping the Remainers win. If you're happy with that then that's your choice and I don't condemn it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7438281/Boris-Johnson-prison-refuses-delay-Brexit-Lord-MacDonald-says.html
Good luck trying to win any MPs under FPTP with that though, certainly beyond Theresa and Philip
https://twitter.com/paulbranditv/status/1170458778787090432?s=21
He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.