the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
Which is itself becoming increasingly marginalised and moribund and is inferior to our preferred independent governance model but may recognise the unfortunate constraints that 21stC global geopolitics places on the UK, that leaves us with some poor choices.
My view is the UK can still do better from a more detached relationship, but it does depend on us having good governance and enhanced geopolitical diligence.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
"I think one point we are all forgetting - particularly when looking at the polling - is that acts that are illegal, unconstitutional or downright crazy are not necessarily unpopular. A few obvious examples spring to mind - Bonar Law's support for the UVF, Thatcher's use of the police without showing their numbers in the miners' strike, George III sacking Portland in 1783. And that's just in this country - de Gaulle's coup in 1958 would also be a good example. The key was the people doing the rule breaking were popular and those being hammered were not.
Johnson remains personally popular due to his TV appearances, and he is offering to leave the EU which, like it or not, whether its supporters know what they're doing or not, is a popular programme. So the fact he is breaking every rule in the book and a number that aren't may not condemn him as it should."
My response:-
Indeed. It is one reason why I think his approach could win him the next GE.
But it is still wrong. Breaking the law is wrong. And having a government which does this degrades our polity, degrades our country and should be criticised. Morality and legality do not depend on popularity. They matter more - in the end - than popularity. Without integrity we are nothing as a people or as a country, however unfashionable or unpopular it may be to say so.
I agree with all of that. But then, even though I am not a lawyer, I also like to think of myself as fairly well-informed on political matters.
Unfortunately, all Johnson and Cummings care about is popularity. They are both interested solely in votes, neither have any principles, and both of them for all their expensive education have no understanding of the theory or history of government and how it has evolved over time. They are closer to Corbyn and Chavez than Theresa May and Kenneth Clarke.
What should really give both Johnson and for that matter Bercow pause is the number of very alarming precedents they are setting that could be exploited should Corbyn or someone even more dangerous like Lavery become PM. But it won't, because they are incapable of thinking more than about a minute ahead.
So what does Jezza do if Boris wangles us out with no deal or a deal on 31/10 and there is no change in the polls.
Hide until 2022 ?
The law of the land now says in statute that we cannot leave by October 31st without first asking the EU for permission for an extension.
Could Boris get us a deal that is acceptable to Parliament by the 31st? Possibly- but could he win an election immediately afterwards? Doubtful.
Boris's winning strategy is going for bust as being the party of No Deal and unifying the Conservative and Brexit vote under FPTP.
What if the EU and the Uk can’t agree an extension ?
Very possible.
Very unlikely if all we are asking for is an(other) extension - until Boris the game everyone was playing was one of avoiding the blame for the end result. And the EU at least still don't want the blame so will do anything to avoid it (after all that's Boris's entire negotiation ploy).
No poll has the SNP alone giving Corbyn Labour a majority, even Panelbase, Corbyn needs the LDs for a majority and Swinson would veto indyref2 and a Corbyn premiership
At this stage we can reasonably set fire to all the polls and let them burn.
Realistically, the Lib Dems would probably tolerate a Corbyn Government but veto any really silly Hard Left economic ideas (so nationalisations and more sumptuary taxes for the wealthy could pass, but any form of expropriation would not.) The price exacted, beyond the second EU referendum that Labour would happily concede anyway, would be PR for Westminster.
I dare say that Swinson would rather not treat with Corbyn at all, but if she finds herself holding the balance of power then she will have to choose between selling her support to Labour on reasonable terms - and Labour won't be forming a Government with anyone other than Corbyn at its head - or decline to support anyone and force yet another General Election that voters really, really would not want.
But we really are getting ahead of ourselves here.
If Corbyn Labour agreed PR then the LDs would almost certainly replace them as the main party of the centre left within an election or 2, while the Tories could split between a Mayite centre right anti No Deal Party and an enlarged populist right Brexit Party.
PR would kill off any chance of Corbyn ever getting a majority Labour government and probably kill off his chances of ever even becoming PM too so he won't
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
I suspect the one nation tories have less than a month to no confidence Boris before the Brexit/Conservative parties merge.
Or maybe even less. I'd be hard-pressed to believe that the Brexit Party doesn't figure in Cumming's plans to "melt" people's reactions over the next couple of weeks.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
I don't think that goes far enough. Any member of the Conservatives who voted Leave in the referendum should be expelled from the party at once.
Then they can be the party of the 9% again as they were in the European elections, maybe even ask Theresa back as leader while the remaining 3/4 of the party now joins the Brexit Party.
Good luck trying to win any MPs under FPTP with that though, certainly beyond Theresa and Philip
Sorry, I wrote Leave when I meant Remain. It's been a long day.
I'll try again: Anyone who voted Remain should be expelled from the Tories.
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
Oh, I live in Los Angeles most of the time. But I'm heading back to London now
Does anybody else fear The Speaker is ultimately the protagonist of all this turmoil? His behaviour during his entire reign has been very political. I fear that all future speakers will now be installed for their political bias rather than their suitability for the role.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I'm going to consider it, I think the tactics of the opposition are more about electoral advantage than preventing "No deal", but I'm as sui generis as they come with my political thoughts.
Does anybody else fear The Speaker is ultimately the protagonist of all this turmoil? His behaviour during his entire reign has been very political. I fear that all future speakers will now be installed for their political bias rather than their suitability for the role.
Why do you think Labour wanted him and refused to act when his bad behaviour became apparent.
Does anybody else fear The Speaker is ultimately the protagonist of all this turmoil? His behaviour during his entire reign has been very political. I fear that all future speakers will now be installed for their political bias rather than their suitability for the role.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actually, over 200 Conservatives responsibly backed the WA on its first pass. It's the ERG and DUP who headbanged against it, and the Opposition who opportunistically decided to vote against it for partisan advantage.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Does anybody else fear The Speaker is ultimately the protagonist of all this turmoil? His behaviour during his entire reign has been very political. I fear that all future speakers will now be installed for their political bias rather than their suitability for the role.
Regardless of whose fault it is, I am quite sure that is how future Speakers will be appointed. We've seen how useful it is to have the Speaker on side.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
Noone with the Tory or DUP whip will support Corbyn in a confidence motion. Right now that's a minority of the House of Commons though.
If Boris resigns though the palace HAS to send for Corbyn as LoTO first up I believe though others have different ideas about this.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
As he becomes Neville Chamberlain to Labour Leave voters
The problem with these hypotheticals is it doesn't say why the election is post-Halloween or how people acted between now and then.
Boris failed - what else matters.
Boris failed because the Remainers in Parliament frustrated him. That is why its critical every Leaver backs the Tories so that the Remainers don't win again.
Easy sales pitch.
Is it?
If Boris thinks he can take my support for granted he's got another thing coming.
I respect that.
But if you don't vote for him then that is helping the Remainers win. If you're happy with that then that's your choice and I don't condemn it.
I don't want the Remainers to win either. I want a moderate Leave.
If I can be convinced that's still the plan, then he's got my vote but I'm not going to be party to scorched earth.
It's more important to me that I can look myself in the mirror each day.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
Oh, I live in Los Angeles most of the time. But I'm heading back to London now
Hope you're not flying British Airways.
The world's 55th favourite airline?
If you've flown with them recently you would understand why. At least Ryanair and Easyjet are honest about how they now work..
I suspect the one nation tories have less than a month to no confidence Boris before the Brexit/Conservative parties merge.
Too late, even if they won a VONC in Boris the membership would just elect Raab instead now and the ERG and Boris loyalists would block a coronation for an anti No Deal, pro extension leader.
However Boris still backs the Withdrawal Agreement provided the backstop is replaced by a technical alternative unlike Farage, he just prefers No Deal and delivering Brexit to further extension
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is barng
You vo
I won't, I back Brex also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
Things change.
Yes, the people doing the moaning then will have changed their tune because their complaints were phony and more about their anger at May.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
Things change.
But not Corbyn's clear unsuitability
His clear unsuitability hasnt changed at all.
His relative unsuitability whilst constrained by others vs the incumbant has changed 180 for me.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is barng
You vo
I won't, I back Brex also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
I can't vote Lib Dem. No way. I'm a traditional Tory, and the yellow peril really grate my cheese.
However, I might be open to providing the returning officer with some amusement during the count.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
I am afraid Tyson lost all sense of perspective long ago. He is one of the true extremists.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
Just came back from Scotland after probably my most epic week of railway geekery ever!
On Monday evening did Stirling to Alloa, as well as Camelon (near Falkirk) to Larbert. Tuesday did Craigendoran to Oban (one of the West Highland Lines) Wednesday did Ladybank to Perth and Aviemore to Inverness Thursday did Crianlarich to Mallaig (the other West Highland) Friday did Leuchars to Dundee to Aberdeen And finally today did the loop from Inverkeithing round to Kirkcaldy via Cowdenbeath
That just leaves Inverness to Kyle, Inverness to Thurso and Wick, and Inverness to Aberdeen for me to complete the normal weekday National Rail network of Great Britain!
But will probably will wait until the days get longer again in the spring, though.
When I did the far northern line, I saw three - three! - golden eagles.
And on every fecking occasion my camera wasn't ready...
My photographic miss was Torness Power Station about 6 or 7 years ago, framed in its entirety by a prominent rainbow. That was merely on a rail replacement service though.
If you jump on a Metropolitan line in central London - Aldgate or King's X say - and follow the line to its ultimate conclusion in Amersham, where the Chilterns begin, you step out of the station into a country town, and if you are lucky there will be magnificent red kites wheeling and screeching above you, even as you put away your Oyster card.
It's a glorious transition. Very poetic.
You can't trick me into leaving zone one; I'm not that stupid.
Travelling into and around central London for any reason is stressful enough. I need a really good one to persuade me to bother.
Actually living there must be indescribably awful. You have my sympathies.
Oh, I live in Los Angeles most of the time. But I'm heading back to London now
Hope you're not flying British Airways.
The world's 55th favourite airline?
If you've flown with them recently you would understand why. At least Ryanair and Easyjet are honest about how they now work..
I fly whenever possible with BA. not a fan of the food downgrade but the staff, whether on the phone, groundside, or onboard are awesome. That makes up for an awful lot.
On Monday labour should lay a vonc in the government and the rebels agree to appointing Ken Clarke to head a unity government
If they don't they are failing to protect our Country from a terrible fate and they will not be forgiven
No. Labour should lay a VoNC after Parliament returns. Why should they give Boris an election before Brexit?
I suspect you can take Big_G out of the Tories but you cannot take the Tory out of Big_G...
Well that is true but I am not saying that. If the rebels which must now be near a majority can take Boris down and a senior mp (not leader) takes over and serves the extension, a GE can take place immediately
Any Tory MP who opposes Boris and backs further extension must now be expelled from the Tory party and immediately deselected as a Tory candidate, not just suspended or have the whip withdrawn, as Comres tonight shows if the Tories extend again that hands Labour the keys to No 10 and sees Tory Leave voters surge to the Brexit Party.
I am sure Cummings agrees with me
I don't think that goes far enough. Any member of the Conservatives who voted Leave in the referendum should be expelled from the party at once.
Then they can be the party of the 9% again as they were in the European elections, maybe even ask Theresa back as leader while the remaining 3/4 of the party now joins the Brexit Party.
Good luck trying to win any MPs under FPTP with that though, certainly beyond Theresa and Philip
Sorry, I wrote Leave when I meant Remain. It's been a long day.
I'll try again: Anyone who voted Remain should be expelled from the Tories.
No, provided they back Brexit Deal or No Deal Remainers are still welcome in the Tories
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
I'm going to consider it, I think the tactics of the opposition are more about electoral advantage than preventing "No deal", but I'm as sui generis as they come with my political thoughts.
You have some weird ones. Like leave the EU but then join the Euro!
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
In February 2013 Purnell left the IPPR in order to rejoin the BBC as its Director of Strategy, on a salary of £295,000
Was that the job which wasn't advertised but just given to Purnell ?
Other interesting bits from wiki:
In December 2008, Purnell proposed charging interest on crisis loans to the unemployed and pensioners made by the Department for Work and Pensions, which were interest-free, at a rate of up to 26.8% per annum.
He told the parliamentary authorities that his main home was in Manchester and claimed the "second home" allowance for his flat in London. In October 2004, he sold his London flat but told HM Revenue and Customs it was his "principal home", not his "second home".
Whilst renting a flat between 2004 and 2006, Purnell claimed £100 a month for cleaning expenses and £586 for repairs. At the end of the lease, the landlord kept the £2,520 deposit, claiming the flat to have been in a poor state.
Purnell also claimed £247 for 3,000 fridge magnets.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actually, over 200 Conservatives responsibly backed the WA on its first pass. It's the ERG and DUP who headbanged against it, and the Opposition who opportunistically decided to vote against it for partisan advantage.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
Noone with the Tory or DUP whip will support Corbyn in a confidence motion. Right now that's a minority of the House of Commons though.
If Boris resigns though the palace HAS to send for Corbyn as LoTO first up I believe though others have different ideas about this.
AFAIK the outgoing Prime Minister can recommend anyone that they like. In practice, as we can now all appreciate, nobody can command the confidence of the House and Johnson is only still in place because it's in the common interest of his opponents to try to force him to comply with the Benn Act.
Therefore, should Johnson resign it ought to be sufficient to force a General Election via the VONC process mandated under the FTPA. The Lib Dems and the bulk of the independent MPs won't back Corbyn as PM, and Corbyn won't back any alternative to himself.
Surely the smart thing for Boris to do is to recommend Corbyn as PM so he can sign the document.
Tories went beserk over May being willing to talk to Corbyn as it 'legitimised' him, as ridiculous as that is. How can they happily let him become PM, however temporarily?
Its not their choice - Boris doesn't lead a functioning government so it will have to resign.
Anyway they could always blame the 'Tory Traitors'.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
And 24% of Boston voted Remain. What’s your point?
In February 2013 Purnell left the IPPR in order to rejoin the BBC as its Director of Strategy, on a salary of £295,000
Was that the job which wasn't advertised but just given to Purnell ?
Other interesting bits from wiki:
In December 2008, Purnell proposed charging interest on crisis loans to the unemployed and pensioners made by the Department for Work and Pensions, which were interest-free, at a rate of up to 26.8% per annum.
He told the parliamentary authorities that his main home was in Manchester and claimed the "second home" allowance for his flat in London. In October 2004, he sold his London flat but told HM Revenue and Customs it was his "principal home", not his "second home".
Whilst renting a flat between 2004 and 2006, Purnell claimed £100 a month for cleaning expenses and £586 for repairs. At the end of the lease, the landlord kept the £2,520 deposit, claiming the flat to have been in a poor state.
Purnell also claimed £247 for 3,000 fridge magnets.
That last detail is sensational. Genuinely the best information of the night.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
It isn't. It's full of people from all over the world, and a LOT of people from EU27.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Well certainly a damn sight smoother. It would however still have dragged on.
I think if we do Brexit in any way shape or form, a lot of people are going to be very surprised to find it is not all over, but only just beginning. These people will include many who are currently aching for politicians to 'get it over with'.
It would have been resolved by the time of the next election (GE2022) as the WA gave enough clarity on the PD for a full permanent FTA to be negotiated within the transition period. Business would have had certainty and we'd have had a basis to build on without this ongoing uncertainty and rebuild our web of trading relationships in the world.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actually, over 200 Conservatives responsibly backed the WA on its first pass. It's the ERG and DUP who headbanged against it, and the Opposition who opportunistically decided to vote against it for partisan advantage.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politenough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
It's shocking just how much the rights of Europeans who want to live and work in the UK have been used as some kind of quasi bargaining chip...right from day one after that terrible vote.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
It isn't. It's full of people from all over the world, and a LOT of people from EU27.
I know, but I'm quoting tyson's negative description of the place
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
And 24% of Boston voted Remain. What’s your point?
?? tyson wanted to be somewhere surrounded by 'like minded people', and the point is there will always be non-like minded people about in abundance, as you yourself also point out.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
Even the Lib Dems are at risk from entryists.
Bloody Orange Bookers
Oi! I'm not a member of any party, just your run-of-the-mill voter. And I've been see-sawing between the Tories and the Lib Dems for years.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
And 24% of Boston voted Remain. What’s your point?
Tyson said he wanted to move to Oxford to avoid Leavers
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
That is surely his plan. Everything points to it. Moreover, the DUP might secretly like it (they can maintain their purity yet Brexit is solved - and in a way which will significantly boost the NI economy)
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
Nah. it's just one bloke on Botley Road, but he has a LOT of flags and posters.
So Rudd wasn't bothered about the government's threats to disobey the law, setting up the dangerous people vs parliament argument and proroguing stunt but the mistreatment of her friends in the party.
It really is ALL about the conservative party. Nothing else matters.
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
Even the Lib Dems are at risk from entryists.
Bloody Orange Bookers
Oi! I'm not a member of any party, just your run-of-the-mill voter. And I've been see-sawing between the Tories and the Lib Dems for years.
We're not all strongly ideological. So there.
It was self referential :-)
The loonier fringe tend to fire that at me on some other fora I inhabit.
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
I say, I say, I say. What do you get if you cross a Leaver and a Remainer?
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
You’re very confused indeed if you think UK immigration and residence rules bear any resemblance to those in force before the existence of the EU or EEC.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
It isn't. It's full of people from all over the world, and a LOT of people from EU27.
I've described Norwich (where I now live and shortly moving from) as being white..hideously white is a bit incendiary- but maybe something I could have said ...I love being in Oxford because it is so multicultural and diverse....
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
Oxford is full of like-minded people, who suit you better? Would that be because, as you previously described it, Oxford is "hideously white"?
Plus even Oxford was 30% Leave, it is not a Leaver free zone
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
Likewise within mine. Though it's generational in my family.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Given that May was always going to get a deal and it was clear that Parliament would never support a no deal exit why should he have wasted money preping for No Deal when it was never going to occur?
There are 2 sides to the No Deal prep argument and it's only now Boris is going for it that preparation is required as the EU will always extend (because they don't want the blame).
I've already swung back to the Lib Dems. Never mind the whole Leave/Remain farrago: if there's only one available party left that doesn't terrify you, then it makes no sense to back anybody else.
Even the Lib Dems are at risk from entryists.
Bloody Orange Bookers
Oi! I'm not a member of any party, just your run-of-the-mill voter. And I've been see-sawing between the Tories and the Lib Dems for years.
We're not all strongly ideological. So there.
It was self referential :-)
The loonier fringe tend to fire that at me on some other fora I inhabit.
?? tyson wanted to be somewhere surrounded by 'like minded people', and the point is there will always be non-like minded people about in abundance, as you yourself also point out.
@HYUFD always wangs on about ‘the North’ being a single leave voting entity when in suits, but then highlights that 30% of Oxford voted Leave.
So Rudd wasn't bothered about the government's threats to disobey the law, setting up the dangerous people vs parliament argument and proroguing stunt but the mistreatment of her friends in the party.
It really is ALL about the conservative party. Nothing else matters.
Politics and government is a jolly game for the privileged.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
Can he get through a campaign without promising he won't do that, or else face rebellion from his own DUP aligned wing?
Comments
Corbyn will vote against anything. Ditto SNP/Plaid/LD. There's just no route there.
My view is the UK can still do better from a more detached relationship, but it does depend on us having good governance and enhanced geopolitical diligence.
Common - Remain
Tezzie - Deal
Bozo - No Deal
Simples.
PR would kill off any chance of Corbyn ever getting a majority Labour government and probably kill off his chances of ever even becoming PM too so he won't
My issue is I don't trust him and I don't respect him. We'll only really know once he's done it and we find out, and he could take and interpret a mandate any way he likes.
So I'm going to find it really hard to vote Conservative with a clean conscience at the next election with him as PM.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Purnell
Isn't that what all the "traitors" exchange was about earlier?
I'll try again: Anyone who voted Remain should be expelled from the Tories.
His behaviour during his entire reign has been very political. I fear that all future speakers will now be installed for their political bias rather than their suitability for the role.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
If Boris resigns though the palace HAS to send for Corbyn as LoTO first up I believe though others have different ideas about this.
If I can be convinced that's still the plan, then he's got my vote but I'm not going to be party to scorched earth.
It's more important to me that I can look myself in the mirror each day.
However Boris still backs the Withdrawal Agreement provided the backstop is replaced by a technical alternative unlike Farage, he just prefers No Deal and delivering Brexit to further extension
His relative unsuitability whilst constrained by others vs the incumbant has changed 180 for me.
However, I might be open to providing the returning officer with some amusement during the count.
Was that the job which wasn't advertised but just given to Purnell ?
Other interesting bits from wiki:
In December 2008, Purnell proposed charging interest on crisis loans to the unemployed and pensioners made by the Department for Work and Pensions, which were interest-free, at a rate of up to 26.8% per annum.
He told the parliamentary authorities that his main home was in Manchester and claimed the "second home" allowance for his flat in London. In October 2004, he sold his London flat but told HM Revenue and Customs it was his "principal home", not his "second home".
Whilst renting a flat between 2004 and 2006, Purnell claimed £100 a month for cleaning expenses and £586 for repairs. At the end of the lease, the landlord kept the £2,520 deposit, claiming the flat to have been in a poor state.
Purnell also claimed £247 for 3,000 fridge magnets.
Certainly not enough for Labour to be denying the people a general election...
Therefore, should Johnson resign it ought to be sufficient to force a General Election via the VONC process mandated under the FTPA. The Lib Dems and the bulk of the independent MPs won't back Corbyn as PM, and Corbyn won't back any alternative to himself.
Anyway they could always blame the 'Tory Traitors'.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
We're not all strongly ideological. So there.
It really is ALL about the conservative party. Nothing else matters.
The loonier fringe tend to fire that at me on some other fora I inhabit.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
A ReLeaver
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
There are 2 sides to the No Deal prep argument and it's only now Boris is going for it that preparation is required as the EU will always extend (because they don't want the blame).