the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31say
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remainingng outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
That is indeed the way to go. I think most people don't bring it up in conversation unless they know the other party is already on the same wavelength. Some people don't seem to have caught onto this politeness, however, and arrogantly assume everyone they are friends with is on the same side of the argument as them..
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is bar a few Remain diehard MPs who are gradually being kicked out of the party or resigning
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sure. I know quite a few friendships and family relationships which have been imperilled by Brexit. Again, this is why it is nearer to revolution than any ordinary political event. The English Civil War did the same to people.
For my part, both my family and my friends have adopted the policy of Don't Talk About It. We know we differ, but we value our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
My mother (Leave) is on the verge of falling out with her best friend (Remain) of over 40 years because of Brexit!
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
I think that was plan A. Losing control of the election date probably wasnt planned, although most of the rest of the weeks events were.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Welr with'.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actually, over 200 Conservatives responsibly backed the WA on its first pass. It's the ERG and DUP who headbanged against it, and the Opposition who opportunistically decided to vote against it for partisan advantage.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Well, he isn't really, is he?
Grieve has been trying to subvert and undermine Brexit from Day One (he even got the meaningful vote clauses in the original Withdrawal Act, for Pete's sake) whilst Hammond worked for it and voted for it three times.
You can say Hammond's lack of prep might have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
I think that was plan A. Losing control of the election date probably wasnt planned, although most of the rest of the weeks events were.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
Why would Farage wish to play second fiddle to Boris? It's why I can't see a merger working.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Given the only way to resolve this referendum is another referendum I don't know how to break it to you.
Nope. The only way to "resolve" this is for Remainers to accept they lost and to implement the 2016 result and go from there (as should have happened many months or even years ago)
the party itself is now fully behind Brexit Deal or No Deal and with Boris in the war with the diehard Remainers and Corbyn
It is h it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31say
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remainingng outside it.
T three years.
That's just sad. Never let politics get in the way of human relationships. If they'd become Nazis or Maoists, fair enough, but mere Brexiteers?
This sort of stuff is existential, though. Deeply sad, but it exposes deep faultlines :-(
Sualue our relationships more. It's a good policy, if you can stick to it.
That is indeed the way to go. I think most people don't bring it up in conversation unless they know the other party is already on the same wavelength. Some people don't seem to have caught onto this politeness, however, and arrogantly assume everyone they are friends with is on the same side of the argument as them..
Yep, and then you get the look, on their faces, of horrified and bewildered incredulity when you are forced to admit you disagree with them.
Idiots. Grow up and accept people can have sincerely held but opposing views.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Given the only way to resolve this referendum is another referendum I don't know how to break it to you.
Nope. The only way to "resolve" this is for Remainers to accepot the lost and to implement the 2016 result and go from there (as should have happened many months or even years ago)
If the ERG had voted with May we would have left.
If I ignore the fact 52% of people voted for their own pet unicorn - the fact the Tory party isn't united is the entire reason we are in mess we are in here...
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
It's shocking just how much the rights of Europeans who want to live and work in the UK have been used as some kind of quasi bargaining chip...right from day one after that terrible vote.
A dozen years ago weren't you getting all excited as Gordon Brown ranted about 'strength' and promised 'British Jobs For British Workers' ?
Yep, and then you get the look, on their faces, of horrified and bewildered incredulity when you are forced to admit you disagree with them.
Idiots. Grow up and accept people can have sincerely held but opposing views.
I take the coward's way out and just make non-committal noises. Was quite awkward at one relative's place, as they were at the height of their 'hang the Tories' phase just as I voted Tory for the first time ever. Should be easier now I won't be doing that next time!
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Would you have been happy for Blair to take us into the Euro WITHOUT a referendum?
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
Glad you agree - it's obvious as night follows day that that was his plan A.
Plan Bi Is for Johnson to break the law and the EU simply give us an extension as they "wouldn't want the UK to leave in a state of political turmoil"
Plan Bii is for him to resign and Corbyn to sign the letter. Ricky business as Corbyn is PM but there is probably an election shortly thereafter.
Plan C is similiar to plan Bii but somehow the opposition manages to stay together long enough to pass the May deal "subject to a referendum". That's good for Johnson also provided there is a united Tory vote against that also as he will be hoping for a decent bounce from furious leavers.
Absolubtely no plan to leave without a deal. He'd bottle that - the very existence of this letter means the EU will likely bend their rules to keep us in whilst we sort out what we actually want.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Welr with'.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actuallyt you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Well, he isn't really, is he?
Grieve has been trying to subvert and undermine Brexit from Day One (he even got the meaningful vote clauses in the original Withdrawal Act, for Pete's sake) whilst Hammond worked for it and voted for it three times.
You can say Hammond's lack of prep might have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
Grieve is an arrogant and entitled jerk who has done serious damage to his cause. I hope one day he has the wits to reflect on his behaviour, and feel some regret.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
Cameron has to take the blame for calling the referendum in the first place.
In part. As I always maintain whenever anyone raises the culpability of Cameron, the original sin of Brexit is shared by the bulk of the 2015 Parliament (and, by extension, most of the current one, since there wasn't that much replacement last time.)
Cameron devised this wheeze to spike Farage's guns, but almost everyone else in the Commons went along with it (voting positively in favour of the measure, with a few abstentions,) except for the SNP. Labour and the other Opposition parties, in particular, were under no obligation to go along with Cameron's plans.
Hence the fact that I have no sympathy for Parliament over the fact that it has got bogged down and proven itself to be incapable of resolving Brexit. They created this mess, and they're collectively discredited for their signal failure to clean it up.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
I think that was plan A. Losing control of the election date probably wasnt planned, although most of the rest of the weeks events were.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
Why would Farage wish to play second fiddle to Boris? It's why I can't see a merger working.
I dont know, but Cummings is clearly telling one nation tories they dont belong and are not wanted - it is a strange policy unless you are bringing another group in.
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
It's shocking just how much the rights of Europeans who want to live and work in the UK have been used as some kind of quasi bargaining chip...right from day one after that terrible vote.
A dozen years ago weren't you getting all excited as Gordon Brown ranted about 'strength' and promised 'British Jobs For British Workers' ?
Or perhaps it was Roger.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Would you have been happy for Blair to take us into the Euro WITHOUT a referendum?
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
The trouble with the referendum was Cameron was basically saying "Hey, we're going to give you a choice between two options, but don't vote for one of them beacuse it would just be really really bad and terrible and a complete disaster, but we're going to give you the option to vote for it anyway"
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Welr with'.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actually, over 200 Conservatives responsibly backed the WA on its first pass. It's the ERG and DUP who headbanged against it, and the Opposition who opportunistically decided to vote against it for partisan advantage.
A few of the ERG woke up a little bit in subsequent "rounds" but not enough to pass it, because by then the damage to it's reputation had been done. By them. It was shredded.
I have zero respect for the Spartans. None. They are not very bright school bullies with huge egos. They are the ones who should be kicked out. Grieve has also been destructive (from the other wing) but you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Well, he isn't really, is he?
Grieve has been trying to subvert and undermine Brexit from Day One (he even got the meaningful vote clauses in the original Withdrawal Act, for Pete's sake) whilst Hammond worked for it and voted for it three times.
You can say Hammond's lack of prep might have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
Yeah, okay, I think it's just recency bias on my part (Hammond having been far more high profile in the past month). Grieve is the lead sinner!
You voted Remain, allegedly [ though it doesn't feel like you did from your posts ]. So when will you be kicked out ?
I won't, I back Brexit on October 31st Deal or No Deal and as long as former Remain voters respect democracy like me they are also welcome to stay
Why didn't you vote Leave in 2016?
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
It's shocking just how much the rights of Europeans who want to live and work in the UK have been used as some kind of quasi bargaining chip...right from day one after that terrible vote.
A dozen years ago weren't you getting all excited as Gordon Brown ranted about 'strength' and promised 'British Jobs For British Workers' ?
Or perhaps it was Roger.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
Cameron has to take the blame for calling the referendum in the first place.
And what of Brown and Blair who canned the one on the Constitution/Lisbon? The men who lit the blue touch paper?
We were promised a vote in a manifesto. It was reneged on. The anger was stored up. The result came in three years ago and we have a remain Parliament still blocking what the people told it to do. The anger builds.
Truth be told we should have had a referendum at every European treaty as I believe the Irish did.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Welr with'.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actuallyt you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Well, he isn't really, is he?
Grieve has been trying to subvert and undermine Brexit from Day One (he even got the meaningful vote clauses in the original Withdrawal Act, for Pete's sake) whilst Hammond worked for it and voted for it three times.
You can say Hammond's lack of prep might have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
Grieve is an arrogant and entitled jerk who has done serious damage to his cause. I hope one day he has the wits to reflect on his behaviour, and feel some regret.
I doubt he will. He's not the type.
Not while he is still feted as a hero, and people still say he cannot be a fanatic, because he just supports staying in the EU, and of course it is impossible to act like a fanatic and believe that. Oh yeah, and he is smart, which also, for some reason, negates that he is an uncompromising zealot.
It's awful currently being on the same side as him, by default.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
+1. For heaven's sake, I was a Communist in the middle of the Cold War with Tory parents - my father's cousin was Tory Chief Whip. We all got on perfectly well and respected each others' right to believe whatever we liked. It's not as though my parents or I could have made the slightest difference to what was happening.
The Mail's big expose of Boris, absentee father, is a dull old dud. The woman involved sounds equally frightful, and the cuckolded bloke needs a good therapist to work through some 'issues' by the sound of it.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Given the only way to resolve this referendum is another referendum I don't know how to break it to you.
Nope. The only way to "resolve" this is for Remainers to accept they lost and to implement the 2016 result and go from there (as should have happened many months or even years ago)
I don't think you have quite got it in this nonsense about implementing the result.
It is quite impossible for us to break free of the EU without creating years of great hardship to our country. And any deal is not acceptable to our friends in the ERG who brought down May and to whom a certain Boris is reliant on for a job he has always wanted....
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
I think that was plan A. Losing control of the election date probably wasnt planned, although most of the rest of the weeks events were.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
Why would Farage wish to play second fiddle to Boris? It's why I can't see a merger working.
I dont know, but Cummings is clearly telling one nation tories they dont belong and are not wanted - it is a strange policy unless you are bringing another group in.
Cummings and Farage don't get on, in fact according to Tim Shipman Cummings has epic disdain for Farage who he sees as thick and (don't laugh) mendacious. That doesn't rule out their working together now, of course, for 'the greater good', but I can't see this pact or merger being anything other than Steve Baker mind mapping his fantasy politics and paper talk.
It is astonishing and a somewhat depressing to find that even on an enlightened forum like this, it appears necessary to argue that the law should be obeyed, and that applies to the PM as much as anybody.
Much of current Tory thinking is now inexplicable to me.
It starts and ends with: another Brexit extension will ruin the party, and must be avoided at all costs.
All else flows from that.
And the public are sick of Brexit.
True, but the public did vote for it. It was naive to think it would be as easy as flicking a switch, even if some politicians implied it would be.
It would have been smooth and managed had politicians voted for the WA.
Welr with'.
As it is, now, it will be viscous and destructive for a long time to come due to utter dickheads on both sides.
Were you aware that the Conservative party was so unfit for purpose ?
Actuallyt you cannot say that about Hammond and Gauke.
Hammond, for his lack of No Deal prep, should be in front of a hearing somewhere. He is worse than Grieve in my book.
Well, he isn't really, is he?
Grieve ht have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
Grieve is an arrogant and entitled jerk who has done serious damage to his cause. I hope one day he has the wits to reflect on his behaviour, and feel some regret.
I doubt he will. He's not the type.
Not while he is still feted as a hero, and people still say he cannot be a fanatic, because he just supports staying in the EU, and of course it is impossible to act like a fanatic and believe that. Oh yeah, and he is smart, which also, for some reason, negates that he is an uncompromising zealot.
It's awful currently being on the same side as him, by default.
Zealot is a great description of Grieve. That's exactly what he is. He even looks the part, like some mad Jesuit in the Spanish Inquisition, utterly assured of his righteousness, and wholly impervious to criticism. A witch burner.
The Mail's big expose of Boris, absentee father, is a dull old dud. The woman involved sounds equally frightful, and the cuckolded bloke needs a good therapist to work through some 'issues' by the sound of it.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
Cameron has to take the blame for calling the referendum in the first place.
And what of Brown and Blair who canned the one on the Constitution/Lisbon? The men who lit the blue touch paper?
We were promised a vote in a manifesto. It was reneged on. The anger was stored up. The result came in three years ago and we have a remain Parliament still blocking what the people told it to do. The anger builds.
Truth be told we should have had a referendum at every European treaty as I believe the Irish did.
If we'd had a referendum each step of the way like the Irish there would have been more buy-in from the public and it would have prevented a number of mistakes. There is no way we'd have ever left if we'd done that.
It was forcing through Lisbon when he knew it was unpopular that really stoked up the anger that made the referendum inevitable.
It's how the politicians behaved after the referendum that's the problem.
And mainly because the public voted the "wrong" way. If we'd voted REMAIN that would have been an end of the matter there and then.
But we vioted LEAVE and so Westminster was left doing something they fundamentally disagreed with.
They asked us if we wanted steak or salad we could only have one, most of us wanted steak and now, hours later while we are all getting pissed up on empty stomachs and ever angrier they haven't got the steaks out of the freezer to defrost and keep asking us what f*cking dressing we want.
Remaining in the EU is objectively superior to being outside it.
That is the the bonkers thing about all this bullshit....Brexiteers accept that Brexit is bad for the country, but have somehow reframed the whole debate about protecting democracy. They are a bunch of absolute shysters but what can you do? I don't talk to my two brothers who spout this kind of crap...I've blocked them and haven't seen them now for over three years.
But you talk to many people with a variety of views which also offend you on PB.
Sadly for me it's personal and emotional with family. My wife is Italian- they (my brothers) know the impact that this has already had on us- we've had to move back to the UK so my wife can begin her residency application leaving elderly relatives in Italy.
Until Brexit impacts upon your day to to day life in a direct way, then it's all a bit hypothetical. I'm moving back to Oxford too in a couple of weeks. Unfortunately now going to the pub here in Norwich can be stressful if I encounter Brexit morons. I need to live somewhere where I'm surrounded by like minded people.
Here on pbCOM- I'm more than happy though to see how the other side is thinking. It's all quite interpersonal.
I'm confused because I thought people from different European nations could live in each other's countries before the existence of the EU or EEC. Maybe no-one bothered to stop them because it was a relatively small number of people at the time.
It's shocking just how much the rights of Europeans who want to live and work in the UK have been used as some kind of quasi bargaining chip...right from day one after that terrible vote.
A dozen years ago weren't you getting all excited as Gordon Brown ranted about 'strength' and promised 'British Jobs For British Workers' ?
Or perhaps it was Roger.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
It really is a mystery - no Labour supporters say they approved of it yet not a single Labour politician criticized it at the time.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Would you have been happy for Blair to take us into the Euro WITHOUT a referendum?
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
I think this is absolutely the key point. They should be used to reinforce Govt’s changing something/pursuing a policy where they are concerned that their mandate from a General Election isn’t sufficient. And that is the only time.
Also any referendum mandate arising will be extra strong because it will not be corrupted by people who have just voted on anti-Govt protest lines (it has been observed that a significant proportion of the original leave vote was probably motivated by anti-austerity - and unfortunately the weak Labour remain campaign did little to challenge this).
Cameron got caught with the bomb when it went off - but the Brexit clash was inevitable eventually.
The Uk and the EU are not well suited - it could never last.
Exactly. At least he gave us a vote.
Which cameron then screwed up by creating the referendum he did. A question which went Norway or staying in the EU would have given Norway a massive majority and sorted everything there and then.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Given the only way to resolve this referendum is another referendum I don't know how to break it to you.
Nope. The only way to "resolve" this is for Remainers to accept they lost and to implement the 2016 result and go from there (as should have happened many months or even years ago)
The other way to resolve this is for Leavers to admit it was a bl**dy stupid idea that has turned out to be near impossible to implement so it is best dropped.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
The Mail's big expose of Boris, absentee father, is a dull old dud. The woman involved sounds equally frightful, and the cuckolded bloke needs a good therapist to work through some 'issues' by the sound of it.
"It's shite being a Remainer! We're the lowest of the low! The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash, that was shat into civilisation! Some people hate the Brexiteers, I don't! They're just w*nkers! We, on the other hand, lost a referendum to w*nkers! Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referendum to! We're ruled by effete arseholes! It's a shite state of affairs to be in, TSE, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Would you have been happy for Blair to take us into the Euro WITHOUT a referendum?
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
I think this is absolutely the key point. They should be used to reinforce Govt’s changing something/pursuing a policy where they are concerned that their mandate from a General Election isn’t sufficient. And that is the only time.
Also any referendum mandate arising will be extra strong because it will not be corrupted by people who have just voted on anti-Govt protest lines (it has been observed that a significant proportion of the original leave vote was probably motivated by anti-austerity - and unfortunately the weak Labour remain campaign did little to challenge this).
I think it's been more than observed - I'm sure a recent report had austerity as the cause of the vote (it was definitely beyond just correlation). Austerity is also a reason why I think Tories do less well up North than they expect to..
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
"It's shite being a Remainer! We're the lowest of the low! The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash, that was shat into civilisation! Some people hate the Brexiteers, I don't! They're just w*nkers! We, on the other hand, lost a referendum to w*nkers! Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referendum to! We're ruled by effete arseholes! It's a shite state of affairs to be in, TSE, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
+1. For heaven's sake, I was a Communist in the middle of the Cold War with Tory parents - my father's cousin was Tory Chief Whip. We all got on perfectly well and respected each others' right to believe whatever we liked. It's not as though my parents or I could have made the slightest difference to what was happening.
"Belief" isn't the issue. Anyone can believe what they want to believe. Anyone can vote for whatever they want to vote for.
What has proven so destructive to the fabric of the country is that people voted by majority for one thing and the losing side has conspired to stop it happening.
That's where the division has come from. People (and especially the older generations) always believed that what set this country apart from almost everywhere else is that if they voted for something it would be implemented.
That it hasn't been is what has caused all the strife ever since.
@Casino_Royale I don't believe Boris would go for "No deal". Plan A was to try and get a big majority on the 14th so he could push through May's deal with an NI only backstop in it. He can't say that's what he wanted to do though as he is obviously trying to hoover up Brexit Party votes.
I don't know what he wants. But I'm very worried about the straws in the wind from cabinet (and elsewhere) that he's not really serious about a deal. I think he'll do what's best for his own career, at the end of the day.
It's possible to reconcile reports that he's not serious about alternative arrangements with the idea that he's serious about getting a deal if you assume his plan is to win a majority and then dump the DUP by signing up to the original NI-only backstop.
It is.
I said this earlier on the previous thread. But the trouble is it's still only a guess.
I think that was plan A. Losing control of the election date probably wasnt planned, although most of the rest of the weeks events were.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
Why would Farage wish to play second fiddle to Boris? It's why I can't see a merger working.
I dont know, but Cummings is clearly telling one nation tories they dont belong and are not wanted - it is a strange policy unless you are bringing another group in.
Cummings is telling those who refuse to deliver Brexit they are not wanted, not One Nation Tories as such
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
Cameron has to take the blame for calling the referendum in the first place.
And what of Brown and Blair who canned the one on the Constitution/Lisbon? The men who lit the blue touch paper?
We were promised a vote in a manifesto. It was reneged on. The anger was stored up. The result came in three years ago and we have a remain Parliament still blocking what the people told it to do. The anger builds.
Truth be told we should have had a referendum at every European treaty as I believe the Irish did.
If we'd had a referendum each step of the way like the Irish there would have been more buy-in from the public and it would have prevented a number of mistakes. There is no way we'd have ever left if we'd done that.
It was forcing through Lisbon when he knew it was unpopular that really stoked up the anger that made the referendum inevitable.
It was pre GFC. The % of people who thought the EU was an important issue was tiny. I'm not saying I agreed with how Brown handled it, but until the referendum was called, most people didn't think it was that important (and to be fair I don't think most people outside us political nerds really knew much about Lisbon), so they calculated that forcing through Lisbon wouldn't really be a problem. And they were right, until Cameron won in 2015...
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I'm curious as to when all that started - it certainly wasn't around 20 years.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
Revenge is a dish ... anyone remember when Nicholas Soames urged IDS to sack Dominic Cummings?
I didn't know Cummings was around at that time.
Cummings was a 'moderniser' then close to Francis Maude and Portillo supporters but still Eurosceptic as a former director of Business for Sterling he led opposition to the Euro
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Given the only way to resolve this referendum is another referendum I don't know how to break it to you.
Nope. The only way to "resolve" this is for Remainers to accept they lost and to implement the 2016 result and go from there (as should have happened many months or even years ago)
The other way to resolve this is for Leavers to admit it was a bl**dy stupid idea that has turned out to be near impossible to implement so it is best dropped.
Well that's your view and if you're correct we'll be able to REJOIN in due course (euro, single army and all...)
But first the result of that refernedum has got to be implemented or else whats the point of any of it?
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
Whatever his talents he has earned the disrespect by conspiring to cheat, hes exceedingly fortunate to be permitted back in the Australian team
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
Cameron has to take the blame for calling the referendum in the first place.
In part. As I always maintain whenever anyone raises the culpability of Cameron, the original sin of Brexit is shared by the bulk of the 2015 Parliament (and, by extension, most of the current one, since there wasn't that much replacement last time.)
Cameron devised this wheeze to spike Farage's guns, but almost everyone else in the Commons went along with it (voting positively in favour of the measure, with a few abstentions,) except for the SNP. Labour and the other Opposition parties, in particular, were under no obligation to go along with Cameron's plans.
Harriet Harman was Labour leader at the time and completely failed to ask the right questions about the way the referendum was set up.
It's how the politicians behaved after the referendum that's the problem.
And mainly because the public voted the "wrong" way. If we'd voted REMAIN that would have been an end of the matter there and then.
But we vioted LEAVE and so Westminster was left doing something they fundamentally disagreed with.
They asked us if we wanted steak or salad we could only have one, most of us wanted steak and now, hours later while we are all getting pissed up on empty stomachs and ever angrier they haven't got the steaks out of the freezer to defrost and keep asking us what f*cking dressing we want.
Trouble is, the referendum did not ask if you wanted steak or salad: it asked if you wanted salad or something else. We've spent the last three years arguing about what that "something" is.
People who don't have very strong feelings either way on Brexit must be feeling a bit out of it at the moment.
They'll be able to find the Labour box at the next GE.
When you look at the petition maps, the remain constituencies that care least about "stopping brexit" are either reasonably strong ethnic minority, also Sinn Fein strongholds.
Both the anti and pro Brexit movements are by and large very very white.
"It's shite being a Remainer! We're the lowest of the low! The scum of the f*cking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash, that was shat into civilisation! Some people hate the Brexiteers, I don't! They're just w*nkers! We, on the other hand, lost a referendum to w*nkers! Can't even find a decent campaign to lose a referendum to! We're ruled by effete arseholes! It's a shite state of affairs to be in, TSE, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any f*cking difference!"
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I'm curious as to when all that started - it certainly wasn't around 20 years.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
You and Tyson need to untwist your knickers and head for Melbourn next Boxing Day Ashes test to see what the Ozzie’s shout at the POMs...
It’s fine - you feel guilt for being a rich Western white dude born into wealth and privilege.
But no need to be a downer on those having a bit of fun and a few beers at the cricket.
People who don't have very strong feelings either way on Brexit must be feeling a bit out of it at the moment.
That would be the majority.
Someone mentioned the Civil War. Another parallel with the CW is that most of the nation doesn't give that much of a fcuk and wants to be left in peace.
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
Process would take a year, what policy platform will be pursued in the meantime? Who is in his cabinet? Can you shut out the electorate for a year minimum with a coalition of all the parties that didn't win the last election?
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
The problem now is that both the Tories and BXP will scream that the leave option is fake / unfair / invalid / wrong and potentially boycott the referendum.
Personally it's the only way out of this mess though even if it won't please everyone and it would give the BXP a long term boost while probably permanently destroying the Tory party.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
Whatever his talents he has earned the disrespect by conspiring to cheat, hes exceedingly fortunate to be permitted back in the Australian team
He got caught..but he served his time, and it is something memorable to see a display of batting that has possibly never seen before
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I have no issue with a sportsman getting stick from opponents for a breach of the rules, but one can only applaud the way he has not let it affect his raw talent, and while it will always be be mentioned as a footnote in his career, he will be remembered far more for his brilliance.
Though whichever cricket coach steered him into spin bowling not batting should be fired.
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
Process would take a year, what policy platform will be pursued in the meantime? Who is in his cabinet? Can you shut out the electorate for a year minimum with a coalition of all the parties that didn't win the last election?
They did however win more votes than the Tories did so that isn't a 100% winnable argument.
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
Process would take a year, what policy platform will be pursued in the meantime? Who is in his cabinet? Can you shut out the electorate for a year minimum with a coalition of all the parties that didn't win the last election?
A coalition of parties thet didn't win the election have been governing since 2017. As they did 2010-15.
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
Whatever his talents he has earned the disrespect by conspiring to cheat, hes exceedingly fortunate to be permitted back in the Australian team
Actually I think there is some debate/doubt about that. It is clear that Warner/Bancroft conspired to cheat, the extent of Smith’s actual involvement is unclear. But he took the rap as captain of the team, and may even have actually acted vaguely honourably in claiming greater knowledge of it than he really had.
As GIN points out, the ComRes figures, despite the dubious nudging in the questions, suggests there's no longer that much difference between pre-Oct 31 and post-Oct 31if Britain hasn't left yet. On those figures, Johnson really needs to find a way to actually leave, or he's going to lose.
But we still have little clue what polls will look like like in October or November.
GIN - I understand the Leaver "betrayal" issue (though I think that moist Remainer MPs genuinely think No Deal would be a disaster for the country beyond what people voted for), but it's still silly to fall out with your family and friends over what you think ought to happen.
Indeed, I have at least one Leave voting friend who has lost a Remain voting friend because of his Brexit vote.
Brexit has divided us far more than say voting for a different party in an election has sad to say
Which is very sad, where it happens.
Disputes over politics simply aren't worth that kind of nastiness.
It's put me right off referendums. Never Again.
Would you have been happy for Blair to take us into the Euro WITHOUT a referendum?
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
I think this is absolutely the key point. They should be used to reinforce Govt’s changing something/pursuing a policy where they are concerned that their mandate from a General Election isn’t sufficient. And that is the only time.
Also any referendum mandate arising will be extra strong because it will not be corrupted by people who have just voted on anti-Govt protest lines (it has been observed that a significant proportion of the original leave vote was probably motivated by anti-austerity - and unfortunately the weak Labour remain campaign did little to challenge this).
It is not that the Leave vote was motivated by anti-austerity but that many Leave voters wrongly ascribed their deprived status to EU membership when in fact a more likely cause was austerity.
This is why Boris wants an election before Brexit fails to improve Leave voters' lives, and will probably make them worse. In some cases, a lot worse.
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I'm curious as to when all that started - it certainly wasn't around 20 years.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
I respectfully and completely disagree. Sledging and banter and mockery have been an intrinsic part of the sport for as long as I remember.
20 years ago I lived in Australia doing my final year of my A Level equivalent and I absolutely remember it being exactly like that. I took a lot of stick for being a Pommie Bastard and gave it back to the Convicts. The 90s was not a good decade to be a Pommie cricket fan at school downunder lol.
The Barmy Army always came up with great mocking chants.
I went to an ODI at the MCG that from memory was not long after both Australia retaining the Ashes yet again as well as their failed republic referendum. My favourite chant that year was the Aussies chanting "we own the Ashes" and the English chanting in reply "we own your country"
Re GNU talk, I dont think Clarke would get enough support. Despite his euro fanaticism he has been very verbal that we must leave with a deal. The LDs would bail as would many labour revokers
What about a GNU to extend first, get a deal, and then put that deal to a referendum...you close out the no deal nonsense from the outset....
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
Process would take a year, what policy platform will be pursued in the meantime? Who is in his cabinet? Can you shut out the electorate for a year minimum with a coalition of all the parties that didn't win the last election?
They did however win more votes than the Tories did so that isn't a 100% winnable argument.
Fair enough but it's not a coalition that could hang together for a year
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I'm curious as to when all that started - it certainly wasn't around 20 years.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
You and Tyson need to untwist your knickers and head for Melbourn next Boxing Day Ashes test to see what the Ozzie’s shout at the POMs...
It’s fine - you feel guilt for being a rich Western white dude born into wealth and privilege.
But no need to be a downer on those having a bit of fun and a few beers at the cricket.
You seem to be very insecure.
And a 'bit of fun and a few beers' has often been used as an excuse for bigoted boors.
I have to say Theresa May has also been the root of a LOT of this division.
I suspect if Boris and Gove had gone into government in 2016 or Cameron had stuck to the job as PM we may well have got away with EEA - I think at the outset a lot of Leavers would have accepted that or something similar.
But the more strident got May got up to June 2017 the more strident leavers AND remainers got in response.
If May had never become PM I suspect we'd have had a much smoother exit without a lot of the division. Maybe.
If the YouGov poll is right, the LDs only need a small shift in opinion to move into second place. Maybe these defections could encourage that to happen.
Isn't her attempt at an excuse that she does not believe now that he is even attempting to leave with a deal, which was part of the strategy in that it was to be the preferred option?
I don't think that makes her anything other than delusional, which is not much of a defence, if she is even sincere, but it is an attempt to frame it as not simply that she cannot stomach no deal.
If one really wanted to continue the claim of Cummings as a conspiratorial genius they might suggest that the appointment of Rudd was made deliberately because they knew she would be subsequently likely to resign! With the bonus that she’s actually resigned the whip so they can get someone else to be the candidate in Hastings.
Jury’s out on the reasons she agreed to be appointed...
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
I'm curious as to when all that started - it certainly wasn't around 20 years.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
I respectfully and completely disagree. Sledging and banter and mockery have been an intrinsic part of the sport for as long as I remember.
20 years ago I lived in Australia doing my final year of my A Level equivalent and I absolutely remember it being exactly like that. I took a lot of stick for being a Pommie Bastard and gave it back to the Convicts. The 90s was not a good decade to be a Pommie cricket fan at school downunder lol.
The Barmy Army always came up with great mocking chants.
I went to an ODI at the MCG that from memory was not long after both Australia retaining the Ashes yet again as well as their failed republic referendum. My favourite chant that year was the Aussies chanting "we own the Ashes" and the English chanting in reply "we own your country"
Any England cricketer who toured Australia in the 70s and 80s will tell you it could get pretty vicious, the MCG in particular being a cauldron of intimidation and sledging. Most of it I'm sure harmless and in jest, but still, booing and the whatnot is not a new thing to Test cricket.
Those who oppose Cummings and expelling the rebels will almost all be Labour and LD voters and as Comres shows tonight if the Tories extend again that will let Labour into Downing Street through Tory defections to the Brexit Party so absolute commitment to Brexit Deal or No Deal from Tory MPs must be imposed
I'd answer don't know on Cummings. I deeply dislike his strategy, and reports of his behaviour suggest he is a big man child who likes to 'shock' people as some kind of silly power play, but whether his advice is good or not I could not say at this stage and at the end of the day his job is to win the day for Boris, and it is far from clear he is doing a bad job at that which he should be fired for.
Comments
Mind you once that second referendum (which really should have been in the first referendum) has taken place, yes they should never occur again.
This gives him even fewer options, the best of which for the PMs personal career is probably Conservative/Brexit merger. Expect that to happen.
Grieve has been trying to subvert and undermine Brexit from Day One (he even got the meaningful vote clauses in the original Withdrawal Act, for Pete's sake) whilst Hammond worked for it and voted for it three times.
You can say Hammond's lack of prep might have weakened our position in negotiations a little bit, by making No Deal less credible, but he's not worse than Grieve who would Revoke first thing tomorrow if he could, and then smirk about it.
For that matter...what has happened to Sean?
If I ignore the fact 52% of people voted for their own pet unicorn - the fact the Tory party isn't united is the entire reason we are in mess we are in here...
Or perhaps it was Roger.
I don't think they are the worst thing in the world but should be used sparingly and not by government's advocating the status quo. Perhaps we ought to blame Harold Wilson who was the first to try this chicanery for party political purposes. Cameron tried to pull a similar trick forgetting that the older members of the electorate had seen this game before.
Plan Bi Is for Johnson to break the law and the EU simply give us an extension as they "wouldn't want the UK to leave in a state of political turmoil"
Plan Bii is for him to resign and Corbyn to sign the letter. Ricky business as Corbyn is PM but there is probably an election shortly thereafter.
Plan C is similiar to plan Bii but somehow the opposition manages to stay together long enough to pass the May deal "subject to a referendum". That's good for Johnson also provided there is a united Tory vote against that also as he will be hoping for a decent bounce from furious leavers.
Absolubtely no plan to leave without a deal. He'd bottle that - the very existence of this letter means the EU will likely bend their rules to keep us in whilst we sort out what we actually want.
I doubt he will. He's not the type.
Cameron devised this wheeze to spike Farage's guns, but almost everyone else in the Commons went along with it (voting positively in favour of the measure, with a few abstentions,) except for the SNP. Labour and the other Opposition parties, in particular, were under no obligation to go along with Cameron's plans.
Hence the fact that I have no sympathy for Parliament over the fact that it has got bogged down and proven itself to be incapable of resolving Brexit. They created this mess, and they're collectively discredited for their signal failure to clean it up.
We were promised a vote in a manifesto. It was reneged on. The anger was stored up. The result came in three years ago and we have a remain Parliament still blocking what the people told it to do. The anger builds.
Truth be told we should have had a referendum at every European treaty as I believe the Irish did.
It's awful currently being on the same side as him, by default.
It's how the politicians behaved after the referendum that's the problem.
And mainly because the public voted the "wrong" way. If we'd voted REMAIN that would have been an end of the matter there and then.
But we vioted LEAVE and so Westminster was left doing something they fundamentally disagreed with.
The Uk and the EU are not well suited - it could never last.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7439103/Society-writer-William-Cash-reveals-Prime-Minister-agreed-let-raise-love-child.html
It is quite impossible for us to break free of the EU without creating years of great hardship to our country. And any deal is not acceptable to our friends in the ERG who brought down May and to whom a certain Boris is reliant on for a job he has always wanted....
It was forcing through Lisbon when he knew it was unpopular that really stoked up the anger that made the referendum inevitable.
Also any referendum mandate arising will be extra strong because it will not be corrupted by people who have just voted on anti-Govt protest lines (it has been observed that a significant proportion of the original leave vote was probably motivated by anti-austerity - and unfortunately the weak Labour remain campaign did little to challenge this).
I hated Brown's expedient diversion into nationalism...it was shocking. I fucking hate nationalism in all it's forms. It leads to division, sectarianism, hatred and racism....
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
What has proven so destructive to the fabric of the country is that people voted by majority for one thing and the losing side has conspired to stop it happening.
That's where the division has come from. People (and especially the older generations) always believed that what set this country apart from almost everywhere else is that if they voted for something it would be implemented.
That it hasn't been is what has caused all the strife ever since.
For that matter the only place where I have heard Australians ever described as 'convicts' is on PB.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2270238.stm
But first the result of that refernedum has got to be implemented or else whats the point of any of it?
I am looking forward to the raiders playing in LV. Would love to go to the opening game there. The raiders and LV were made for each other.
Have you watched the “hard knocks” series on the raiders pre-season? Awesome programme
I cannot even stand the chant of the English supporters about the Ozzies...always cheating...I turn the volume down, and I love cricket. It's horrible. And there has been something majestic and noble to see Smith confronting the chants, and the boos to show a display of tenacity and skill in batting that I have never seen before....
Whatever his talents he has earned the disrespect by conspiring to cheat, hes exceedingly fortunate to be permitted back in the Australian team
That is something the rebels could coalesce around surely? And Ken Clarke could front it for the six to nine months required....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32863749
When you look at the petition maps, the remain constituencies that care least about "stopping brexit" are either reasonably strong ethnic minority, also Sinn Fein strongholds.
Both the anti and pro Brexit movements are by and large very very white.
It’s fine - you feel guilt for being a rich Western white dude born into wealth and privilege.
But no need to be a downer on those having a bit of fun and a few beers at the cricket.
Someone mentioned the Civil War. Another parallel with the CW is that most of the nation doesn't give that much of a fcuk and wants to be left in peace.
Personally it's the only way out of this mess though even if it won't please everyone and it would give the BXP a long term boost while probably permanently destroying the Tory party.
https://twitter.com/DCBMEP/status/1170444070516396032?s=20
Whatever his talents he has earned the disrespect by conspiring to cheat, hes exceedingly fortunate to be permitted back in the Australian team
He got caught..but he served his time, and it is something memorable to see a display of batting that has possibly never seen before
Though whichever cricket coach steered him into spin bowling not batting should be fired.
But we still have little clue what polls will look like like in October or November.
GIN - I understand the Leaver "betrayal" issue (though I think that moist Remainer MPs genuinely think No Deal would be a disaster for the country beyond what people voted for), but it's still silly to fall out with your family and friends over what you think ought to happen.
This is why Boris wants an election before Brexit fails to improve Leave voters' lives, and will probably make them worse. In some cases, a lot worse.
20 years ago I lived in Australia doing my final year of my A Level equivalent and I absolutely remember it being exactly like that. I took a lot of stick for being a Pommie Bastard and gave it back to the Convicts. The 90s was not a good decade to be a Pommie cricket fan at school downunder lol.
The Barmy Army always came up with great mocking chants.
I went to an ODI at the MCG that from memory was not long after both Australia retaining the Ashes yet again as well as their failed republic referendum. My favourite chant that year was the Aussies chanting "we own the Ashes" and the English chanting in reply "we own your country"
And a 'bit of fun and a few beers' has often been used as an excuse for bigoted boors.
I suspect if Boris and Gove had gone into government in 2016 or Cameron had stuck to the job as PM we may well have got away with EEA - I think at the outset a lot of Leavers would have accepted that or something similar.
But the more strident got May got up to June 2017 the more strident leavers AND remainers got in response.
If May had never become PM I suspect we'd have had a much smoother exit without a lot of the division. Maybe.
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1170475126900568065
I don't think that makes her anything other than delusional, which is not much of a defence, if she is even sincere, but it is an attempt to frame it as not simply that she cannot stomach no deal.
Jury’s out on the reasons she agreed to be appointed...