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Stereotomy said:

felix said:

Another dilemma for the Labour left:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?

Brendan, tortured logic? Never thought I'd hear the like!

But for many years the assertion in hard-right circles was that there's a 'hierarchy of victimhood': the rights of LGBTs trump those of women and they are all in turn trumped by the rights of Muslims. The reaction to this case seems to blow that out the water.

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Johnson doesn't want the EU to agree a deal. He wants them to be seen as the enemy.

Johnson doesn't want a No Deal. He knows the damage it will cause but has to keep up the pretence in order to present the Tory party as the Brexit party.

What he wants is for parliament to prevent a no deal (if necessary he will covertly facilitate it) with an extension so that he can call a general election in October for November to get a clear Brexit majority in parliament. The EU will allow an extension for a GE>

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1155798130853654530

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1155799355347144704

It is worth remembering two things as regards to No Deal.

1. In the event of No Deal, the increase in the amount of imports requiring documentation in the EU will be 10-15%.

In the UK, it'll double, as we go from around 50% (including EFTA/EEA) to 100%. We therefore have much more work to do to hire and train customs staff, than they do,

The same is true of, for example, passport checks at the border. We'll suddenly find that there's been a doubling (or more) of the people who need to fill out landing cards (and who we need to process), while they'll see only a 20% rise.

2. For people exporting to countries outside the EU, they will have only modest changes from No Deal, while we'll have quite significant ones.

So, let's say you're a German car maker selling to Korea. Well, the local content of your car has gone from 65% to 55%, as 10% comes from the UK. Big deal? No, because you're still compliant with Rules of Origin,

Now imagine you're a UK one. Well, unless 40% of the value of that Jaguar or Aston Marton comes from the UK (which it doesn't), then you suddenly find yourself facing tariffs. Simply, you go from 65% local content to 25%.

Boris is refusing to even negotiate with the EU, and is now ploughing straight toward a catastrophic No Deal.

And 45% of the country want this to happen?

Will the last one to leave the United Kingdom please turn out the lights? This country is well and truly fucked.

rottenborough said:

Terrifying.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/preparing-brexit-no-deal-final.pdf

I had not realised that after we No Deal, the negotiations will be far more complex and protracted, as we are officially a 3rd country and not a A50 exiteer. Anything has to be ratified by all 27 state parliaments!

Johnson must be removed from office asap.

Yes. The idea that we will Leave on Oct 31 in an "event", issue sorted, is as far from the truth as is possible. This will run and run for years, possibly decades as a live issue.
However, it is a very convenient falsehood to propagate for now.

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Don’t dismiss the possibility that Cummings prefers No Deal.

I’ve never thought him any kind of genius, but he’s certainly smarter than most of his Tory tools. Low bar, of course.

StuartDickson said:

It’s just plain statistics that at least 1 out of 27 is going to be grit in the works.

Spain? (Gibraltar)
Ireland? (GFA)
France? (pissing themselves laughing)

Italy? (Fighting with EU on other fronts, look like a badass domestically for using this as leverage)
Hungary? (ditto)

MarqueeMark said:

Brexit of some sort 52%, Remaining 40%.

The tide has turned.

No, 38% say they support Brexit with a 'clean break from the EU'. It is foolish, verging on bonkers, to conflate that with supporting crashing out in utter chaos, which is where we seem to be heading.

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

Those figures are not correct based on the latest Opinium poll if you read the link from Opinium I posted and page 6 of the political report

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

https://twitter.com/narendramodi/status/1155760207693090816?s=20

Gardenwalker said:

Boris is refusing to even negotiate with the EU, and is now ploughing straight toward a catastrophic No Deal.

And 45% of the country want this to happen?

Will the last one to leave the United Kingdom please turn out the lights? This country is well and truly fucked.

People now want the Brexit they voted for, even if No Deal

felix said:

rottenborough said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

They don't know what they are talking about and they will forget they ever were in favour when there are food shortages and huge job losses.

Yup that will bring back the Leavers on board let's call them thickos again - worked really well in 2016.

It's just a political fact: people do not blame themselves or their votes for things that go wrong, they blame the people in charge.

Nigelb said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Don’t dismiss the possibility that Cummings prefers No Deal.

I’ve never thought him any kind of genius, but he’s certainly smarter than most of his Tory tools. Low bar, of course.

Yes. He wants to overturn the system. He's said as much. No better way to achieve that end.

Stereotomy said:

felix said:

Another dilemma for the Labour left:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?

The issue is that people are not prepared to address the fact that there are those within Islam who are fostering the sort of bigotry that this individual has chosen to accept. It is not all of Islam - but if you look at the research, the level of anti-LGBT+ sentiment within Islam in Europe is high, in other parts of the world it stratospherically high.

People are free to choose whatever religion/faith they wish. But they are not free to spread hate using their faith as a shield for their bigotry.

You choose your religion, you do not choose your sexuality. So we have to challenge any religion that tries to deny my right to live and love.

And too many of our political leaders are not prepared to challenge on this subject for fear of being accused of being -phobic. And by remaining silent, they are allowing homophobia to increase.

This needs to stop.

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

Those figures are not correct based on the latest Opinium poll if you read the link from Opinium I posted and page 6 of the political report

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

They are correct. They are taken from the same poll a few pages on.

OblitusSumMe said:

SouthamObserver said:

I genuinely don't understand this. Johnson has to deliver a No Deal Brexit now. Anything else would be seen as a betrayal by the voters he is looking to attract. There is no no deal to be done with the red lines he has set.

I think EdmundInTokyo's point is relevant. There's a discount on no deal because if we do no deal each of your winning pounds will probably be worth less than a $ or € each.

If you believe no deal is deleterious to your currency holdings, then a bet mitigates the loss. I did do an article earlier this year about how currency conversion may be be a better approach than gambling [TL:DR: it does with less risk, but not by as much if you bet correctly], but the theory is sound.

MarqueeMark said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

Brexit of some sort 52%, Remaining 40%.

The tide has turned.

Not really, as if you look at the extremes it's 38% OUT, to 40% IN. The country is still split right down the middle, as it has been since the referendum.

As sensible government, even one that favours Brexit, would negotiate in good faith with the EU, and deliver a softish Brexit (EFTA, Norway, Canada+).

rcs1000 said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

The report doesn't say what @HYUFD says it does. (See: https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Opinium-Political-Report-24th-July-2019.pdf)

45% of people say "Go ahead with Brexit on October 31st even if it means leaving with ‘no deal’".

"Even if it means No Deal" != "No Deal is my preferred option"

Indeed - a few pages on the poll makes clear what the preferred options are. And it's not No Deal. But Johnson has got himself into a place where he has to deliver one or he and the Tories will be done for. But then what happens? It is very, very hard to see how things end well for the.

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

People now want the Brexit they voted for, even if No Deal

No Deal is not the Brexit they voted for

Voters voted for Brexit, Deal or No Deal

Sad to see a union flag used as the symbol of "no deal" - as if that's a patriotic outcome rather than national humiliation.

SouthamObserver said:

rcs1000 said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

The report doesn't say what @HYUFD says it does. (See: https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Opinium-Political-Report-24th-July-2019.pdf)

45% of people say "Go ahead with Brexit on October 31st even if it means leaving with ‘no deal’".

"Even if it means No Deal" != "No Deal is my preferred option"

Indeed - a few pages on the poll makes clear what the preferred options are. And it's not No Deal. But Johnson has got himself into a place where he has to deliver one or he and the Tories will be done for. But then what happens? It is very, very hard to see how things end well for the.

Boris is heading for a 4th consecutive Tory government, something achieved only once in the last 100 years.

The Tories are fine thanks

oxfordsimon said:

Stereotomy said:

felix said:

Another dilemma for the Labour left:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?

The issue is that people are not prepared to address the fact that there are those within Islam who are fostering the sort of bigotry that this individual has chosen to accept. It is not all of Islam - but if you look at the research, the level of anti-LGBT+ sentiment within Islam in Europe is high, within Europe in other parts of the world it stratospherically high.

People are free to choose whatever religion/faith they wish. But they are not free to spread hate using their faith as a shield for their bigotry.

You choose your religion, you do not choose your sexuality. So we have to challenge any religion that tries to deny my right to live and love.

And too many of our political leaders are not prepared to challenge on this subject for fear of being accused of being -phobic. And by remaining silent, they are allowing homophobia to increase.

This needs to stop.

This is what I feel is the real virtue signalling.

Most people born pre noughties grew up in a world that was super homophobic (post noughties is only less homophobic relatively). You may think "well, not me guv" but I remember when gay and f** were common slurs used at anyone. I remember people I know not wanting to walk down the road holding hands. I remember having conversations with family members and friends' parents about equal marriage and they hated the idea.

LGBTQ+ rights are not a stick to beat Muslims with. What about LGBTQ+ Muslims themselves? What about the Catholic church? What about the increase in homophobic violence across Europe which isn't coming from the immigrant community but from the far right? What about all the trans panic stuff?

oxfordsimon said:

Stereotomy said:

felix said:

Another dilemma for the Labour left:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?

The issue is that people are not prepared to address the fact that there are those within Islam who are fostering the sort of bigotry that this individual has chosen to accept. It is not all of Islam - but if you look at the research, the level of anti-LGBT+ sentiment within Islam in Europe is high, within Europe in other parts of the world it stratospherically high.

People are free to choose whatever religion/faith they wish. But they are not free to spread hate using their faith as a shield for their bigotry.

You choose your religion, you do not choose your sexuality. So we have to challenge any religion that tries to deny my right to live and love.

And too many of our political leaders are not prepared to challenge on this subject for fear of being accused of being -phobic. And by remaining silent, they are allowing homophobia to increase.

This needs to stop.

Really? Stella Creasy apparently had no trouble calling it out in this instance. Could you give me some examples of the left defending homophobia when it's religiously-motivated?

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

rcs1000 said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

The report doesn't say what @HYUFD says it does. (See: https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Opinium-Political-Report-24th-July-2019.pdf)

45% of people say "Go ahead with Brexit on October 31st even if it means leaving with ‘no deal’".

"Even if it means No Deal" != "No Deal is my preferred option"

Indeed - a few pages on the poll makes clear what the preferred options are. And it's not No Deal. But Johnson has got himself into a place where he has to deliver one or he and the Tories will be done for. But then what happens? It is very, very hard to see how things end well for the.

Boris is heading for a 4th consecutive Tory government, something achieved only once in the last 100 years.

The Tories are fine thanks

But the Tories have only held a majority or a very short period in the last 30 years. Is that not a long term concern for the party? Shouldn't the fact the party has failed to gain a substantial, governing majority since Major lead to introspection? It always amazed me that even with PM Brown, BROWN, the Tories couldn't get a majority in parliament! There is a real weakness there, that your party need to contend with.

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

People now want the Brexit they voted for, even if No Deal

No Deal is not the Brexit they voted for

Scott knows best peeps!!!

The person who doesn't even read the articles he posts to support his "case" somehow knows what everyone voted for.

HYUFD said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

People now want the Brexit they voted for, even if No Deal

No Deal is not the Brexit they voted for

Voters voted for Brexit, Deal or No Deal

They were told that there was no plan for no deal because we are going to get a good deal.

One point which perhaps hasn't been fully picked up on by commentators is that all this 'do or die' rhetoric and issuing what sounds like ultimatums* to Brussels provides plenty of cover, as well as a very strong reason, for sane MPs to take an equally 'do or die' approach. So Boris and the ERGers who temporarily think they run the country can hardly complain if sensible MPs do 'whatever it takes' to prevent this suicidal course, and that might justifiably include some measures which are a constitutional novelty.

* (admittedly threatening to damage ourselves very badly, which is an odd kind of diplomatic ultimatum)

Commentator said:

Sad to see a union flag used as the symbol of "no deal" - as if that's a patriotic outcome rather than national humiliation.

National humiliation would be to vote for Brexit then revoke rather than see it through

FrancisUrquhart said:

Am i right in understanding labours position is now GE, magic unicorn new brexit deal, referendum on it...which they will advocate voting against and to remain?

Not really. But I am here to help -

(1) GE is not a 'position'. It is what Oppositions need in order to become the government.

(2) The Deal they will negotiate will be very soft Brexit. Permanent membership of the Customs Union and close alignment with the Single Market. The Withdrawal Agreement will be unchanged. This is not a 'magic unicorn', it is perfectly reasonable and realistic.

(3) They will offer a Referendum on this deal, the other option on the ballot being Remain.

(4) The bulk of the party - members, MPs, cabinet - will campaign for Remain but it will be a choice. Some will campaign for Leave (Deal). Similar to how Wilson handled the split party in 1975.

My pleasure - don't mention it.

148grss said:

oxfordsimon said:

Stereotomy said:

felix said:

Another dilemma for the Labour left:
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?

The issue is that people are not prepared to address the fact that there are those within Islam who are fostering the sort of bigotry that this individual has chosen to accept. It is not all of Islam - but if you look at the research, the level of anti-LGBT+ sentiment within Islam in Europe is high, within Europe in other parts of the world it stratospherically high.

People are free to choose whatever religion/faith they wish. But they are not free to spread hate using their faith as a shield for their bigotry.

You choose your religion, you do not choose your sexuality. So we have to challenge any religion that tries to deny my right to live and love.

And too many of our political leaders are not prepared to challenge on this subject for fear of being accused of being -phobic. And by remaining silent, they are allowing homophobia to increase.

This needs to stop.

This is what I feel is the real virtue signalling.

Most people born pre noughties grew up in a world that was super homophobic (post noughties is only less homophobic relatively). You may think "well, not me guv" but I remember when gay and f** were common slurs used at anyone. I remember people I know not wanting to walk down the road holding hands. I remember having conversations with family members and friends' parents about equal marriage and they hated the idea.

LGBTQ+ rights are not a stick to beat Muslims with. What about LGBTQ+ Muslims themselves? What about the Catholic church? What about the increase in homophobic violence across Europe which isn't coming from the immigrant community but from the far right? What about all the trans panic stuff?

Churches and Mosques should not have gay marriage forced upon them but neither should they spread homophobia either

rcs1000 said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1155798130853654530

https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1155799355347144704

It is worth remembering two things as regards to No Deal.

1. In the event of No Deal, the increase in the amount of imports requiring documentation in the EU will be 10-15%.

In the UK, it'll double, as we go from around 50% (including EFTA/EEA) to 100%. We therefore have much more work to do to hire and train customs staff, than they do,

The same is true of, for example, passport checks at the border. We'll suddenly find that there's been a doubling (or more) of the people who need to fill out landing cards (and who we need to process), while they'll see only a 20% rise.

2. For people exporting to countries outside the EU, they will have only modest changes from No Deal, while we'll have quite significant ones.

So, let's say you're a German car maker selling to Korea. Well, the local content of your car has gone from 65% to 55%, as 10% comes from the UK. Big deal? No, because you're still compliant with Rules of Origin,

Now imagine you're a UK one. Well, unless 40% of the value of that Jaguar or Aston Marton comes from the UK (which it doesn't), then you suddenly find yourself facing tariffs. Simply, you go from 65% local content to 25%.

Your first part is wrong. It's exactly the same amount of work. The percentage is immaterial.

philiph said:

Wrong in an important respect.

It is just a Unicorn deal, not a magic Unicorn. In Labour Magic is the preserve of Grandpa.

Why is Norway plus a unicorn deal?

Floater said:

Scott knows best peeps!!!

https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1155795693753290754

Richard_Nabavi said:

One point which perhaps hasn't been fully picked up on by commentators is that all this 'do or die' rhetoric and issuing what sounds like ultimatums* to Brussels provides plenty of cover, as well as a very strong reason, for sane MPs to take an equally 'do or die' approach. So Boris and the ERGers who temporarily think they run the country can hardly complain if sensible MPs do 'whatever it takes' to prevent this suicidal course, and that might justifiably include some measures which are a constitutional novelty.

* (admittedly threatening to damage ourselves very badly, which is an odd kind of diplomatic ultimatum)

Well quite. If the government is going to lose a vote of confidence (and we have Jacob Rees-Mogg's confirmation that he thinks they would), what's to stop MPs seizing control of the Parliamentary agenda in the 14 day period?

Scott_P said:

Floater said:

Scott knows best peeps!!!

https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/1155795693753290754

You'd think he might like to keep quiet about people sticking by their campaign pronouncements.

Richard_Nabavi said:

glw said:

Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.

Yes, I see that the old 'getting agreement with the EU will be easy' has now morphed into 'they will be much more cooperative after we've crashed out in chaos'.

Didn't you get the memo? We should just be positive and that will sort things out.
Here, we can zoom in on Boris's red laptop in the image being passed around and see who he's taking notes from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGkKFick8E8

Stark_Dawning said:

dixiedean said:

Nigelb said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Don’t dismiss the possibility that Cummings prefers No Deal.

I’ve never thought him any kind of genius, but he’s certainly smarter than most of his Tory tools. Low bar, of course.

Yes. He wants to overturn the system. He's said as much. No better way to achieve that end.

Cummings has clearly brainwashed Boris. Boris is now Cummings's puppet and is obliterating Britain's economy, social fabric, industry and commerce, and international standing with his master's every malign tug of his strings. What a miserable development. The only mitigating factor for the Tory membership is that they were never explicitly informed that the PM they voted for was a stooge.

No Cummings won the referendum promising to deliver regained sovereignty, greater control over who crosses our borders and the right to do our own free trade deals and Boris will deliver that.

We will have plenty of international support, including President Trump, most of the Commonwealth, Brazil under Bolsonaro, Israel under Netanyahu, even Russia under Putin or Italy under a future PM Salvini in pursuing a clean break with the EU

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

rcs1000 said:

SouthamObserver said:

HYUFD said:

SouthamObserver said:

Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/

Hmmmm ...
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155554899809247232?s=21

The report doesn't say what @HYUFD says it does. (See: https://www.opinium.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/Opinium-Political-Report-24th-July-2019.pdf)

45% of people say "Go ahead with Brexit on October 31st even if it means leaving with ‘no deal’".

"Even if it means No Deal" != "No Deal is my preferred option"

Indeed - a few pages on the poll makes clear what the preferred options are. And it's not No Deal. But Johnson has got himself into a place where he has to deliver one or he and the Tories will be done for. But then what happens? It is very, very hard to see how things end well for the.

Boris is heading for a 4th consecutive Tory government, something achieved only once in the last 100 years.

The Tories are fine thanks

Yep - your team is winning, of that there is absolutely no doubt at all. Whether that is good for the country and whether it is sustainable are very different issues. But I suspect that like all fans you do not really care about that right now. It's just one game at a time.

glw said:

HYUFD said:

We will have plenty of international support, including President Trump, most of the Commonwealth, Brazilunder Bolsonaro, Israel under Netanyahu, even Russia under Putin in pursuing a clean break with the UK

I presume that this is a joke, because that can't be a serious comment.

I also love the original edit saying "clean break with UK".

And sure, I am so happy that my country is leaving the somewhat centre right embrace of the EU and going full throatedly towards the authoritarian, kleptocratic and outright fascistic. That is what I want from the world.

HYUFD said:

148grss said:

HYUFD said:

148grss said:

oxfordsimon said:

This is what I feel is the real virtue signalling.

Most people born pre noughties grew up in a world that was super homophobic (post noughties is only less homophobic relatively). You may think "well, not me guv" but I remember when gay and f** were common slurs used at anyone. I remember people I know not wanting to walk down the road holding hands. I remember having conversations with family members and friends' parents about equal marriage and they hated the idea.

LGBTQ+ rights are not a stick to beat Muslims with. What about LGBTQ+ Muslims themselves? What about the Catholic church? What about the increase in homophobic violence across Europe which isn't coming from the immigrant community but from the far right? What about all the trans panic stuff?

Churches and Mosques should not have gay marriage forced upon them but neither should they spread homophobia either

I mean, what is their basis for refusing equal marriages? Is it because they don't believe God recognises the love between same sex couples? Should town halls be able to refuse service to gay men's choirs; and if not how is that any different to wanting to book a space for a different kind of event. Kinda sounds like homophobia to me.

If marriage is a legal contract, I don't really see what business it is of religions to be involved in it anyway. You get tax breaks if you're married, you get specific spousal rights. All of those come from the state, not religious institutions.

Edit: I hate blockquote, I can never make it look right when the character limit is up...

Religious marriage should stay entirely that, you can have civil gay or lesbian marriages but not religious ones.

Can we make sure that religious marriages get none of the state benefits a state marriage affords, then?

glw said:

HYUFD said:

We will have plenty of international support, including President Trump, most of the Commonwealth, Brazilunder Bolsonaro, Israel under Netanyahu, even Russia under Putin in pursuing a clean break with the UK

I presume that this is a joke, because that can't be a serious comment.

HYUFD supports a football team. He is happy to win in whatever way necessary.

glw said:

HYUFD said:

We will have plenty of international support, including President Trump, most of the Commonwealth, Brazilunder Bolsonaro, Israel under Netanyahu, even Russia under Putin in pursuing a clean break with the UK

I presume that this is a joke, because that can't be a serious comment.

With India it covers most of the global economy outside the EU

Richard_Tyndall said:

Scott_P said:

HYUFD said:

People now want the Brexit they voted for, even if No Deal

No Deal is not the Brexit they voted for

You don't know what they voted for. I doubt you even know what you voted for.

Some did vote for no deal even if not their preferred solution, some like me did not. People attempting to argue 100% are on board with or not with no deal are peddling untruths .

HYUFD said:

148grss said:

HYUFD said:

148grss said:

oxfordsimon said:

This is what I feel is the real virtue signalling.

Most people born pre noughties grew up in a world that was super homophobic (post noughties is only less homophobic relatively). You may think "well, not me guv" but I remember when gay and f** were common slurs used at anyone. I remember people I know not wanting to walk down the road holding hands. I remember having conversations with family members and friends' parents about equal marriage and they hated the idea.

LGBTQ+ rights are not a stick to beat Muslims with. What about LGBTQ+ Muslims themselves? What about the Catholic church? What about the increase in homophobic violence across Europe which isn't coming from the immigrant community but from the far right? What about all the trans panic stuff?

Churches and Mosques should not have gay marriage forced upon them but neither should they spread homophobia either

I mean, what is their basis for refusing equal marriages? Is it because they don't believe God recognises the love between same sex couples? Should town halls be able to refuse service to gay men's choirs; and if not how is that any different to wanting to book a space for a different kind of event. Kinda sounds like homophobia to me.

If marriage is a legal contract, I don't really see what business it is of religions to be involved in it anyway. You get tax breaks if you're married, you get specific spousal rights. All of those come from the state, not religious institutions.

Edit: I hate blockquote, I can never make it look right when the character limit is up...

Religious marriage should stay entirely that, you can have civil gay or lesbian marriages but not religious ones. Indeed some vicars still refuse to marry divorcees in church quite legally

Do you think if a religious enterprise has a business part of it that that should have to follow equality law? For instance, let's say a church has it's hall and it rents that out to people as part of business functions. Do you think that church should have the right to say "people our faith dislikes cannot hire our hall, even for non religious events"?

Scott_P said:

He's a fucking idiot

https://twitter.com/AndrewSparrow/status/1155811766795943942

Only if he believes what he says. Which I doubt.