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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On what’s currently the biggest UK political betting market pu

SystemSystem Posts: 12,171
edited July 2019 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On what’s currently the biggest UK political betting market punters make it a 35% chance that there’ll be an no deal Brexit this year

Betdata.io chart of Betfair price movements

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Comments

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2019
    These numbers substantially understate the market's opinion of the probability of No Deal, because if it's No Deal then the winner gets paid in No Deal pounds, which are worth maybe 20% less than the Not No Deal pounds you win if you win the bet on the other side.
  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,565
    edited July 2019
    Strikes me that Boris is looking for someone, anyone, to call his bluff. The EU, Parliament etc. I'm starting to hope that no-one does, and that he has to climb down all on his own.

    One thing that just starting to get attention is how unmanaged a no-deal would be without required legislation: that trade bill that got stuck, a farming bill, a fishing bill, an immigration bill etc.

    Chances of parliament passing them to enable a no-deal: somewhere near zero I reckon.

    So forcing a no deal through really would be about bringing the whole order of things crashing down. And I'm not sure I can see even this Conservative party doing that, when it really comes to it.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    edited July 2019
    Hasn't Brexit been a continual bourach of unintended consequences? BJ blustering on about 110% real no deal in the belief that it'll engender a consumption of delicious cake deal fits entirely with the process to date.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    This is like a window on a dying culture.

    https://twitter.com/richardgaisford/status/1155029988791468032
  • MysticroseMysticrose Posts: 4,688
    edited July 2019
    *** BETTING POST ***

    DavidL said:

    e.

    I can’t see any circumstances where Boris gets the votes to pass an agreement (any agreement) in this Parliament.
    So Revoke it is. There’s some nice prices on that.
    *** BETTING POST ***

    I don't find the odds of 3/1 on Revoking Article 50 this year (perhaps 4's if you really hunt around) particularly 'nice.' Those aren't odds that attract me.

    Instead, might I suggest another route to nearly the same end with fuller routes and better odds?

    If Article 50 is going to be revoked, there's a good chance it would have to be before Oct 31st. If it isn't the case then it means Johnson will have had to extend the deadline. Either of those options would almost certainly mean the end of Boris Johnson as PM, something which is also achievable by other means such as a successful VONC.

    I therefore suggest that Ladbroke's 5/1 on Boris Johnson being the shortest ever serving Prime Minister represents the better option if you're tempted by the revoke Art 50 market. That gives you until November 20th. That's a lot more juicy and I have just bet accordingly.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,798
    I think this is fairly priced, personally.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Did Boris mean the awesome foursome regions?

    https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1155739652923580418
  • I've had a nibble on this market - if the EU keeps up its intransigence I might go larger (although I'll probably end up with less good odds)
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    tpfkar said:

    Strikes me that Boris is looking for someone, anyone, to call his bluff. The EU, Parliament etc. I'm starting to hope that no-one does, and that he has to climb down all on his own.

    One thing that just starting to get attention is how unmanaged a no-deal would be without required legislation: that trade bill that got stuck, a farming bill, a fishing bill, an immigration bill etc.

    Chances of parliament passing them to enable a no-deal: somewhere near zero I reckon.

    So forcing a no deal through really would be about bringing the whole order of things crashing down. And I'm not sure I can see even this Conservative party doing that, when it really comes to it.

    Yes, Boris' strategy is to wait for someone else to blink.

    But in the end he will either have to blink himself or be forced out by a VONC.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    I genuinely don't understand this. Johnson has to deliver a No Deal Brexit now. Anything else would be seen as a betrayal by the voters he is looking to attract. There is no no deal to be done with the red lines he has set.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Where are you getting the "dying" bit from? I wish you were right, but I don't see the evidence
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    We're at a historic moment with Boris and his No Deal. If the result is anything other than Heaven on Earth, then I can't see Boris's Tories winning a Westminster seat any time soon. Nigel will pounce, proclaiming Boris to be a bumbling oaf who buggered Brexit through a combination of incompetence and vanity. The Leave voters will then flock to TPB in droves, convinced that Nigel is, and always was, their one true savour. Boris's support will be eviscerated.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I genuinely don't understand this. Johnson has to deliver a No Deal Brexit now. Anything else would be seen as a betrayal by the voters he is looking to attract. There is no no deal to be done with the red lines he has set.

    And it only works if there is an election where the voters can endorse his No Deal position before it actually happens and they riot instead
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I genuinely don't understand this. Johnson has to deliver a No Deal Brexit now. Anything else would be seen as a betrayal by the voters he is looking to attract. There is no no deal to be done with the red lines he has set.

    I think EdmundInTokyo's point is relevant. There's a discount on no deal because if we do no deal each of your winning pounds will probably be worth less than a $ or € each.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Quite like 'frostier than a penguin’s undercarriage'. Hopefully it means that we'll be spared a ghastly cuddles photo op.

    'Everything is not awesome in Boris Johnson’s foursome'

    https://tinyurl.com/y5drgpel

    I daresay this won't go on HUYFD's list of endlessly repeatable sub samples.

    'In the latest YouGov poll Scotland gives Johnson a thumbs down: 70 per cent are negative about him; 66 per cent don’t trust him and almost as many think he has extreme views and will make all the wrong decisions for the country.

    Caveat: it is only a small sub-sample of the nationwide poll but you would need a rather large pinch of salt to convince yourself that there was not a problem for the Tories north of the border.'
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Where are you getting the "dying" bit from? I wish you were right, but I don't see the evidence

    That lot look like prime candidates for heart attacks, strokes, chronic liver disease and skin cancer!!

  • I genuinely don't understand this. Johnson has to deliver a No Deal Brexit now. Anything else would be seen as a betrayal by the voters he is looking to attract. There is no no deal to be done with the red lines he has set.

    I think EdmundInTokyo's point is relevant. There's a discount on no deal because if we do no deal each of your winning pounds will probably be worth less than a $ or € each.
    It's only relevant if you do foreign holidays or it ends up being inflationary. Pound in your pocket and all that.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Quite like 'frostier than a penguin’s undercarriage'. Hopefully it means that we'll be spared a ghastly cuddles photo op.

    Noted elsewhere: a penguin's undercarriage is where they keep their eggs warm...
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    External events will be the key issue in the run up to October 31st.

    For MPs they’ll find it easier to act if a combination of the following happens .

    Panic buying in the supermarkets .
    Pound crashing .
    Businesses putting out relocation plans .

    Under that scenario they can say we need to step in and the numbers in the Commons might grow to stop a no deal.


  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,237
    IMO this market is a clear lay. That's a strong 'IMO' and money is co-habiting with mouth.

    Only route to No Deal passes through Johnson winning an election with a working majority AND being serious himself about doing it. I judge both of those things to be doubtful.

    And even if I'm wrong and he does win an election and he does want to No Deal the lay is still a winner unless it all gets done this year.

    I'm hoping that the bombast and the rhetoric keeps flowing so that more and more punters get convinced, the price shortens, and I can lay lots more. I plan to go all in on this one just as I did - smug city and tootled trumpet - on 'no Ref2 in 2019'.
  • surbiton19surbiton19 Posts: 1,469
    The Tories will claim that they are not putting up a hard border in NI. However, the moment we go WTO, there has to be a hard border not just in NI but also at seaports and airports. UK is not having zero tariffs.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    I think Sir Simon is right here. We should stop fooling ourselves that No Deal is merely a ruse. Intentionally or not, Boris has created the scenario in which it is now very much the reality.


    No-deal Brexit has suddenly gone serious. It is no longer an exercise in bombast and biceps-flexing. Boris Johnson is about to impose a massive economic sanction on his own country. He is playing with fire. It is a political stunt that has gone horribly wrong.

    It is clearly reckless to assume a sensible Brexit deal before the due date of 31 October. Politicians can twiddle their thumbs, others cannot. Since March, the Tories decided collectively to stop working in the nation’s interest and play a game of chicken with Brussels. It has not worked. The government is now planning for crisis.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/29/no-deal-brexit-tory-joke-boris-johnson-economic-britain
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Where are you getting the "dying" bit from? I wish you were right, but I don't see the evidence

    That lot look like prime candidates for heart attacks, strokes, chronic liver disease and skin cancer!!

    Lol - so fat git Remain voters will be saved? If only...
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    edited July 2019
    Scott_P said:

    Quite like 'frostier than a penguin’s undercarriage'. Hopefully it means that we'll be spared a ghastly cuddles photo op.

    Noted elsewhere: a penguin's undercarriage is where they keep their eggs warm...
    I think it's the male ones isn't it? The respective gender difference in undercarriage temperature may be apposite.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    We now go live to Brexit.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Does anyone have a list of the enabling legislation which needs to be passed in order for No Deal to take place within a set of legal rules? To my mind, this is the key to the whole shebang right now, and I am feeling distinctly under informed.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Where are you getting the "dying" bit from? I wish you were right, but I don't see the evidence

    That lot look like prime candidates for heart attacks, strokes, chronic liver disease and skin cancer!!

    I think this whole cruise story has been the biggest shock to my system over the past few days. I imagined that a cruise to the Norwegian Fjords would be a calm, tranquil affair, for those who enjoy the beauty of nature and watching wildlife. Instead it turns out that it is a lager-fueled chavfest. Thank feck I've never been tempted to sign up for such a trip.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Scott_P said:
    And yet, his FOC Sec has just told ITV news that the British are the ones showing all the pragmatism and flexibility.

    This is clown fest taken to a art form level.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    How in God's name can Parliament be in recess for a month when we face the biggest economic and constitutional crisis since the War?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    We have shown enormous flexibility,

    For example we are leading the way in proposing to change the WA by removing the back stop.

    If the EU showed the same amount of flexibility the back stop would be solved :)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,133
    Scott_P said:
    Am i right in understanding labours position is now GE, magic unicorn new brexit deal, referendum on it...which they will advocate voting against and to remain?
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    How in God's name can Parliament be in recess for a month when we face the biggest economic and constitutional crisis since the War?

    What crisis? Easiest deal in history.... apparently

    :smiley:
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,005
    Hope Sajid doesn't mind the occasional rammy from his neighbours.

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1155793772350967810
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.

    It’s genuinely pitiful. The idea that people like Raab can steer us safely through a No Deal is for the fairies.

  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Scott_P said:
    Am i right in understanding labours position is now GE, magic unicorn new brexit deal, referendum on it...which they will advocate voting against and to remain?
    Wrong in an important respect.

    It is just a Unicorn deal, not a magic Unicorn. In Labour Magic is the preserve of Grandpa.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Scott_P said:
    Corbo looks 110. The daft old twat should really jack it in.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    glw said:


    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.

    Yes, I see that the old 'getting agreement with the EU will be easy' has now morphed into 'they will be much more cooperative after we've crashed out in chaos'.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    How in God's name can Parliament be in recess for a month when we face the biggest economic and constitutional crisis since the War?

    Well since they achieve bugger all in the 6 months they were sitting, getting them out of harms way may not b such a bad idea.

    The only way to get something through parliament is a forced choice vote, and we know that they don't do forced choice votes.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683
    Scott_P said:
    That settles it. If Boris was serious about some new kind of new WA he wouldn't be shunning Brussels. Presumably Cummings has persuaded him that the chaos, suffering and destructiveness of No Deal is somehow desirable. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility that Boris has gone quite mad, literally believes he's Churchill's reincarnation and this is some bizarre 'destiny' thing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Scott_P said:
    He is digging himself such a deep hole!

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,038

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    So that is where Maaaay went wrong!
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Scott_P said:
    That settles it. If Boris was serious about some new kind of new WA he wouldn't be shunning Brussels. Presumably Cummings has persuaded him that the chaos, suffering and destructiveness of No Deal is somehow desirable. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility that Boris has gone quite mad, literally believes he's Churchill's reincarnation and this is some bizarre 'destiny' thing.
    To be fair, keeping Boris as far away as possible from EU leaders might be the best way of getting their help.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    Raab is nowadays known as Győr in any case!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Győr
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    dixiedean said:

    Does anyone have a list of the enabling legislation which needs to be passed in order for No Deal to take place within a set of legal rules? To my mind, this is the key to the whole shebang right now, and I am feeling distinctly under informed.

    If you go to the Institute for Government they have a list there . Bills include , trade , immigration .

    The thing is Bozo won’t dare bring them back before 31st October as they can be amended .

    At this point there are prob only two ways to avoid no deal , a VONC or Bercow using the nuclear option and allowing an emergency debate to include a motion that can be voted on and amended .

    That could suspend the standing orders of the House .
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Scott_P said:
    He is digging himself such a deep hole!

    They really think the EU is going to blink don't they?
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    dixiedean said:

    Does anyone have a list of the enabling legislation which needs to be passed in order for No Deal to take place within a set of legal rules? To my mind, this is the key to the whole shebang right now, and I am feeling distinctly under informed.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/preparing-brexit-no-deal-final.pdf

    None is the simple answer.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Scott_P said:
    That settles it. If Boris was serious about some new kind of new WA he wouldn't be shunning Brussels. Presumably Cummings has persuaded him that the chaos, suffering and destructiveness of No Deal is somehow desirable. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility that Boris has gone quite mad, literally believes he's Churchill's reincarnation and this is some bizarre 'destiny' thing.
    To save the party they had to burn the country to the ground.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.

    It’s genuinely pitiful. The idea that people like Raab can steer us safely through a No Deal is for the fairies.

    Raab was asked about the Stena Impero which was seized by Iran, and replied by talking about Grace 1 which was seized by the Royal Navy. When Raab realised that he was talking nonsense he tried to make out that he was just giving context to his answer, not that he had anything of substance to say anyway.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    philiph said:

    Scott_P said:
    Am i right in understanding labours position is now GE, magic unicorn new brexit deal, referendum on it...which they will advocate voting against and to remain?
    Wrong in an important respect.

    It is just a Unicorn deal, not a magic Unicorn. In Labour Magic is the preserve of Grandpa.
    and also, Corbyn has said it is undecided whether his party will campaign for Remain or the deal they have just negotiated iirc.

    Yep. It makes about as much sense as the Tory plans.

    We are left hoping Swinson and a government of national unity can save us from these two sets of idiots.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    Thanks to ralphmalph and nico67. In the words of the lawyer I shall be none the wiser. But much better informed.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,683

    Scott_P said:
    He is digging himself such a deep hole!

    They really think the EU is going to blink don't they?
    The supposed logic of ramping up preparations for a no-deal outcome is that this will induce the EU to blink and drop the repeated insistence of its leaders that the agreement can’t be reopened. They will then buckle and give him concessions that they wouldn’t offer to Mrs May. Now ask yourself this: how likely are Europe’s leaders to make themselves look very stupid in order to make Boris Johnson look very clever?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/mr-johnson-swears-off-early-election-sweaty-aroma-says-otherwise
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    "Boris Johnson to live with his partner Carrie Symonds in Downing Street, No 10 confirms" : Guardian


    Don't pack too much stuff love, your partner wont be living there long.

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    October 31st

    If BJ is still PM and unchallenged / not lost a VONC, what are the circumstances under which the EU will offer an extension?

    The WA is presented to and passed by Parliament?
    BJ stops no deal rhetoric and accepts WA?
    BJ resigns?
    There has to be a reason for an extension, I can't see what that could be with BJ as PM

    We were supposed to use the last extension constructively. That didn't happen!

    I don't see how the EU could offer extension with BJ 'secure' as PM

    Questions are:
    Am I wrong?
    What gives, our PM or EU?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Scott_P said:
    Johnson with not one, not two, but THREE keyboards in front of him, trying to figure out whether he’s a “no brexiter”, “clean bexiter”, or a “diamond brexiter”.

    Meanwhile fat man on right hollers encouragement and Latin tags.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Scott_P said:
    He is digging himself such a deep hole!

    They really think the EU is going to blink don't they?
    The supposed logic of ramping up preparations for a no-deal outcome is that this will induce the EU to blink and drop the repeated insistence of its leaders that the agreement can’t be reopened. They will then buckle and give him concessions that they wouldn’t offer to Mrs May. Now ask yourself this: how likely are Europe’s leaders to make themselves look very stupid in order to make Boris Johnson look very clever?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/mr-johnson-swears-off-early-election-sweaty-aroma-says-otherwise
    And he seems to have ruled out the most (only?) likely concessions over timings and length.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,912

    and also, Corbyn has said it is undecided whether his party will campaign for Remain or the deal they have just negotiated iirc.

    How mad would it be if we did get a second deal with the EU and the governing party would not vote for it again?
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    dixiedean said:

    Thanks to ralphmalph and nico67. In the words of the lawyer I shall be none the wiser. But much better informed.

    You’re welcome . The thing is as Ralph said those bills aren’t critical for no deal but would be needed immediately post October 31st .

    I think the thing to look out for is the emergency debate route . Bercow can effectively ignore the advice of his clerks and do whatever he likes .
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    glw said:


    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.

    Yes, I see that the old 'getting agreement with the EU will be easy' has now morphed into 'they will be much more cooperative after we've crashed out in chaos'.
    The Eric Clipperton school of negotiation
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    That explains the mysterious existence of Andrea Jenkyns.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133
    If Boris pulls this off I will be the first to say I was wrong but right now he is scaring 'the socks' off me

    And to my SNP friends I come from the 'Ruthie' side on this
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    Scott_P said:
    Johnson with not one, not two, but THREE keyboards in front of him, trying to figure out whether he’s a “no brexiter”, “clean bexiter”, or a “diamond brexiter”.

    Meanwhile fat man on right hollers encouragement and Latin tags.
    One of them is not the nuclear button is it !!!!!!!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,720
    The Welsh Assembly poll from YouGov has Plaid Cymru in the lead.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155788310486421504
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    "Boris Johnson to live with his partner Carrie Symonds in Downing Street, No 10 confirms" : Guardian


    Don't pack too much stuff love, your partner wont be living there long.

    'love' - you could be in a lot of trouble from the sisterhood
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Scott_P said:
    That settles it. If Boris was serious about some new kind of new WA he wouldn't be shunning Brussels. Presumably Cummings has persuaded him that the chaos, suffering and destructiveness of No Deal is somehow desirable. I'm honestly not ruling out the possibility that Boris has gone quite mad, literally believes he's Churchill's reincarnation and this is some bizarre 'destiny' thing.
    To save the party they had to burn the country to the ground.
    I’ve spotted the flaw in their strategy: burning the country to the ground will not save the party.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    Another dilemma for the Labour left:
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

    Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,884

    "Boris Johnson to live with his partner Carrie Symonds in Downing Street, No 10 confirms" : Guardian


    Don't pack too much stuff love, your partner wont be living there long.

    My name is Carrie
    I live on the 2nd floor
    I live upstairs from you
    Yes I think you've seen me before

    If you hear something late at night
    Some kind of trouble
    Some kind of fight
    Just don't ask me what it was
    Just don't ask me what it was
    Just don't ask me what it was



    With apologies to Suzanne Vega
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163
    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    That explains the mysterious existence of Andrea Jenkyns.
    I think I will go and do something Boris cannot - use my time productively. :)
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    dixiedean said:

    Thanks to ralphmalph and nico67. In the words of the lawyer I shall be none the wiser. But much better informed.

    The bills that were proposed were about changing things on Brexit day. In the previous thread there was a link to the fact that the trade bill allows us to change tariffs. This does not stop no deal Brexit, just means that it occurs without a nice to have.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    That explains the mysterious existence of Andrea Jenkyns.
    I think I will go and do something Boris cannot - use my time productively. :)
    Keep posting on here maybe !!!!!!
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    If Boris pulls this off I will be the first to say I was wrong but right now he is scaring 'the socks' off me

    And to my SNP friends I come from the 'Ruthie' side on this

    Its ok, we didn’t have you down as being from the Arse and Elbow side.
  • Beibheirli_CBeibheirli_C Posts: 8,163

    dixiedean said:

    glw said:

    It really is just total nonsense now being spouted by government ministers.

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1155763543821758464

    Raab was absolutely dire on Radio 5 this morning. I could have done a better job than he did of answering the questions, and I'm just some random person from the internet who was half-awake at the time.
    What is the attraction of this empty suit for the Tory faithful. His only distinguishing feature seems to be an oddly spelt name. Is that enough these days?
    That explains the mysterious existence of Andrea Jenkyns.
    I think I will go and do something Boris cannot - use my time productively. :)
    Keep posting on here maybe !!!!!!
    I think I am done for today.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164

    The Welsh Assembly poll from YouGov has Plaid Cymru in the lead.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155788310486421504

    Lol - in other breaking news Hastings looking like a bust for the Saxons.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,491

    Scott_P said:
    He is digging himself such a deep hole!

    They really think the EU is going to blink don't they?
    The supposed logic of ramping up preparations for a no-deal outcome is that this will induce the EU to blink and drop the repeated insistence of its leaders that the agreement can’t be reopened. They will then buckle and give him concessions that they wouldn’t offer to Mrs May. Now ask yourself this: how likely are Europe’s leaders to make themselves look very stupid in order to make Boris Johnson look very clever?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/28/mr-johnson-swears-off-early-election-sweaty-aroma-says-otherwise
    And he seems to have ruled out the most (only?) likely concessions over timings and length.
    It makes sense if he’s going for a GE first.

    Otherwise it’s Russian Roulette.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    edited July 2019
    philiph said:

    October 31st

    If BJ is still PM and unchallenged / not lost a VONC, what are the circumstances under which the EU will offer an extension?

    The WA is presented to and passed by Parliament?
    BJ stops no deal rhetoric and accepts WA?
    BJ resigns?
    There has to be a reason for an extension, I can't see what that could be with BJ as PM

    We were supposed to use the last extension constructively. That didn't happen!

    I don't see how the EU could offer extension with BJ 'secure' as PM

    Questions are:
    Am I wrong?
    What gives, our PM or EU?

    Those possible paths and lots of others, including but not limited to:

    * UK Parliament appoints somebody to speak for them in matters of Article 50 extensions, Boris is still there but that person makes the request for a delay while the UK works through its constitutional crisis
    * Boris brings back the WA again this time under a Union Jack tea cosy, it doesn't pass Parliament but he gets an agreement to pass it subject to a binding referendum, asks for time to do that
    * Boris and somebody on the EU side have some discussions about the Political Declaration, they say they were "productive" but they have not yet concluded, Boris asks for an extension and the rest of the EU grants it, since the alternative causes an immediate crisis and the EU has never yet seen a can and not kicked it
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,133

    If Boris pulls this off I will be the first to say I was wrong but right now he is scaring 'the socks' off me

    And to my SNP friends I come from the 'Ruthie' side on this

    Its ok, we didn’t have you down as being from the Arse and Elbow side.
    Thanks Stuart. I am not and I have a great affection for all Scots
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,591
    edited July 2019
    philiph said:

    October 31st

    If BJ is still PM and unchallenged / not lost a VONC, what are the circumstances under which the EU will offer an extension?

    The WA is presented to and passed by Parliament?
    BJ stops no deal rhetoric and accepts WA?
    BJ resigns?
    There has to be a reason for an extension, I can't see what that could be with BJ as PM

    We were supposed to use the last extension constructively. That didn't happen!

    I don't see how the EU could offer extension with BJ 'secure' as PM

    Questions are:
    Am I wrong?
    What gives, our PM or EU?

    Now let's think about it, who is in a stronger position.

    The EU is a united group of 27 countries with a clear strategy - preserving the EU and discouraging any other country from leaving - on which they are all agreed. They have level-headed and experienced leaders in most cases. Their total population is about 430m and their GDP is in the region of $18 trillion.

    The PM leads a government which has no parliamentary or popular majority for its no deal Brexit policy. The PM is inexperienced, erratic and widely derided. His strategy is driven entirely by personal and party interests. Many of his supporters profess themselves happy to risk destroying their country in pursuit of Brexit. The UK has a population of 66m and GDP of about $2.5 trillion.

    It's not very hard to work out which side will give.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    felix said:

    Another dilemma for the Labour left:
    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/07/the-curious-reaction-to-a-niqab-wearing-homophobe/

    Come on Owen Jones let's hear from you.

    Did you really fall for that article? You bought into the incredibly tortured logic required to pretend that supporting a woman's right the wear the niqab is somehow inconsistent with criticise a woman for anything she does while wearing one?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    "Boris Johnson to live with his partner Carrie Symonds in Downing Street, No 10 confirms" : Guardian


    Don't pack too much stuff love, your partner wont be living there long.

    'love' - you could be in a lot of trouble from the sisterhood
    Indeed. That was rather remiss of me. Apologies all.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,653
    Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    The Welsh Assembly poll from YouGov has Plaid Cymru in the lead.

    https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1155788310486421504

    Nowhere near enough for a Plaid majority though, Adam Price would need Tory and LD support to replace Mark Drakeford as First Minister
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Scott_P said:
    For the voters he is trying to keep and attract this is good politics from Johnson. May used to go over to talk and get blanked, cakes tweeted and the tick tock man. Just gave the impression that she was a patsy.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773
    Scott_P said:
    To be fair to Boris there, there is no point of negotiation if there's not going to be a negotiation.

    If the EU are sticking to 'no change to the WA', then there's nothing to talk about, and we have a No Deal.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    Terrifying.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/preparing-brexit-no-deal-final.pdf

    I had not realised that after we No Deal, the negotiations will be far more complex and protracted, as we are officially a 3rd country and not a A50 exiteer. Anything has to be ratified by all 27 state parliaments!

    Johnson must be removed from office asap.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237
    edited July 2019

    dixiedean said:

    Does anyone have a list of the enabling legislation which needs to be passed in order for No Deal to take place within a set of legal rules? To my mind, this is the key to the whole shebang right now, and I am feeling distinctly under informed.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/preparing-brexit-no-deal-final.pdf

    None is the simple answer.
    Well, yes.

    We leave without a deal, perfectly legally, if nothing happens between now and October 31st.

    However, passing (and amending) certain legislation would make the process considerably more pleasant. If you look at https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/income-tax you can see the amount of revising work that needs to happen on a regular basis to avoid UK firms ending up in Double Taxation / Withholding Tax hell.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,156

    Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

    Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

    45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

    https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772

    Scott_P said:
    To be fair to Boris there, there is no point of negotiation if there's not going to be a negotiation.

    If the EU are sticking to 'no change to the WA', then there's nothing to talk about, and we have a No Deal.
    Johnson has removed one option, a MV5 on WA or we No Deal 'gun against the head' vote on 30th October. Should be enough decent Lab MPs to pass that choice surely? But Johnson wont be able to do that because he has said the WA is dead.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Because sometimes it's easy to forget just how bad a state the US is in: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/28/bernie-sanders-americans-canada-insulin-bus-caravan
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,772
    HYUFD said:

    Johnson has got himself into a situation where delivering Brexit on 31st October is not enough. It has to be a No Deal Brexit. If this is an example of the genius of Dominic Cummings it may be that he is not quite the genius we’ve been led to believe he is.

    Opinium yesterday had No Deal now the public's most favoured option.

    45% of voters back No Deal, 28% of voters want to revoke Article 50 and stay in the EU and just 13% of voters want to extend Article 50 past October until a Brexit Deal is done

    https://www.opinium.co.uk/political-polling-24th-july-2019/
    They don't know what they are talking about and they will forget they ever were in favour when there are food shortages and huge job losses.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414

    dixiedean said:

    Thanks to ralphmalph and nico67. In the words of the lawyer I shall be none the wiser. But much better informed.

    The bills that were proposed were about changing things on Brexit day. In the previous thread there was a link to the fact that the trade bill allows us to change tariffs. This does not stop no deal Brexit, just means that it occurs without a nice to have.
    OK. That was an excellent paper you linked to. I kind of understood the situation in general, but it was laid out comprehensively and clearly without having to wade through excessive waffle or taking an overtly political stance
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 12,146

    Terrifying.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/preparing-brexit-no-deal-final.pdf

    I had not realised that after we No Deal, the negotiations will be far more complex and protracted, as we are officially a 3rd country and not a A50 exiteer. Anything has to be ratified by all 27 state parliaments!

    Johnson must be removed from office asap.

    It’s just plain statistics that at least 1 out of 27 is going to be grit in the works.

    Spain? (Gibraltar)
    Ireland? (GFA)
    France? (pissing themselves laughing)
This discussion has been closed.