politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This morning’s front pages after the night before
Comments
-
more a question of numbersFoxy said:
That would be a Revalation.Nigelb said:
And such an event would lead to an Exodus of half the Tory party..Gardenwalker said:
If he thinks he can just Toot-and-come-in to 10 Downing Street he should think again.SquareRoot said:
Boris is like a bul-rush in a china shopydoethur said:
And he delta very bad hand to May, and indeed the rest of us.SquareRoot said:
He is in de-Nileydoethur said:
There's a general feeling he isn't being Pharoah about Brexit.IanB2 said:
Everyone hates Boris, our new Moses.OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
0 -
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
So, given BoJo's Mosaic complex, I herewith re-post my prescient theory about Brexit that I first posted past August:-
"So my theory is that Brexit is a re-run of the book of Exodus.
The Israelites are sick of being bossed around by the Egyptians. Then Moses comes to them with a plan to leave Egypt, which he’s got from a burning bush. Or perhaps it’s a burning bus, with a large monetary figure written on the side. Whatever.
Moses tells them it’s all going to be great, they’re going to be going to a land flowing with milk and honey, so they set off across the desert. Eventually they turn up in the promised land, which turns out to be yet another rather scrubby piece of desert, and Moses tells them that he’s just going off to negotiate terms for them. Off he goes for forty days and nights, and while he’s gone, the Israelites get very excited about all the new deals they’ll be able to do in future, and make themselves an effigy of a golden calf (probably they expected a bull market).
Eventually, Moses returns and tells them they’re going to have to get rid of the golden calf. He’s got a deal, of a sort, but actually, it’s all a set of rules about things they’re not allowed to do, and, by the way, they’re not allowed to question the rules either.
Still, at least they got away from those bloody foreigners bossing them around, didn’t they?"0 -
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
My son, who works for an international engineering company is expectiong rioting in Brexit is overturned.kjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Is that not basically Ken Clarke's question in the debate yesterday?Scott_P said:0 -
That would be a mistake. They want us to be so alienated that we stop voting.kjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Sad though it is, it's equally possible that the reshaping of politics from class to Brexit (or what Brexit is a proxy for in terms of cultural attitudes) accelerates. So put money on Tory gains in Northern working class seats and more Labour gains in London and the remainy bits of the shires?isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Who will be the British Trump I wonder? The opportunity is now huuuuuuugekjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
I heard once that when they crossed the Red Sea Moses commanded the Isrealites to turn left. Which they did, and eventually ended in a land flowing with milk, honey and orange groves. Had they of course turnd right they would have eventually ended up owning a load of oil wells.DayTripper said:So, given BoJo's Mosaic complex, I herewith re-post my prescient theory about Brexit that I first posted past August:-
"So my theory is that Brexit is a re-run of the book of Exodus.
The Israelites are sick of being bossed around by the Egyptians. Then Moses comes to them with a plan to leave Egypt, which he’s got from a burning bush. Or perhaps it’s a burning bus, with a large monetary figure written on the side. Whatever.
Moses tells them it’s all going to be great, they’re going to be going to a land flowing with milk and honey, so they set off across the desert. Eventually they turn up in the promised land, which turns out to be yet another rather scrubby piece of desert, and Moses tells them that he’s just going off to negotiate terms for them. Off he goes for forty days and nights, and while he’s gone, the Israelites get very excited about all the new deals they’ll be able to do in future, and make themselves an effigy of a golden calf (probably they expected a bull market).
Eventually, Moses returns and tells them they’re going to have to get rid of the golden calf. He’s got a deal, of a sort, but actually, it’s all a set of rules about things they’re not allowed to do, and, by the way, they’re not allowed to question the rules either.
Still, at least they got away from those bloody foreigners bossing them around, didn’t they?"0 -
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Finally an achievement for this Parliament. To be thought lower than the thieving bastards with their ridiculous expense claims is an achievement of note. A new low. Congratulations.kjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
On the plus side other than the "we are not dishonest lying toerags, honestly" confirmatory referendum I don't think I will see another in my life time. Thank the sky fairy for that.0 -
Mr. F, generally, I think vox pops on the news are irksome. But I still remember a Dutch voter explaining why he voted for Geert Wilders despite disliking him. The voter said the country was sick, and he preferred strong medicine to none.
I imagine that sort of thinking could be one ingredient in the recipe for the plausible rise of the far right. Teaching voters you'll renege on manifesto commitments, then, a decade later, that you'll respect their choice in a referendum and then don't, is damned silly.
I do wonder what course the EU-philes will chart. As I see it, their main options are:
Revocation (via the Commons)
Referendum (to secure revoke that way)
Departure in name only, seeking to return immediately0 -
That is what such a betrayal will create the perfect storm for a trumpesque leader to emergeisam said:
Who will be the British Trump I wonder? The opportunity is now huuuuuuugekjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
0 -
It was a Rudolf Hess tribute, the pilot hoped to negotiate a better deal.DavidL said:Given that we have experts on here can anyone explain how a plane destined for Germany managed to end up in Edinburgh? Would they not have had to lodge the wrong flight plan as well, otherwise they would presumably have been notified that they were off course at an early stage? How on earth could that not be noticed? How did they manage to get a landing slot at Edinburgh? It just seems really, really strange.
0 -
Depends on how many Disciples there are.Roger said:
more a question of numbersFoxy said:
That would be a Revalation.Nigelb said:
And such an event would lead to an Exodus of half the Tory party..Gardenwalker said:
If he thinks he can just Toot-and-come-in to 10 Downing Street he should think again.SquareRoot said:
Boris is like a bul-rush in a china shopydoethur said:
And he delta very bad hand to May, and indeed the rest of us.SquareRoot said:
He is in de-Nileydoethur said:
There's a general feeling he isn't being Pharoah about Brexit.IanB2 said:
Everyone hates Boris, our new Moses.OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
0 -
But voting for any of them gives the winners a credibility they don't deserve. It's a dilemma.Sean_F said:
That would be a mistake. They want us to be so alienated that we stop voting.kjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.0 -
According to Survation it is the WWC in NW, Wales etc that are the Leave to Remain switchers.IanB2 said:
Sad though it is, it's equally possible that the reshaping of politics from class to Brexit (or what Brexit is a proxy for in terms of cultural attitudes) accelerates. So put money on Tory gains in Northern working class seats and more Labour gains in London and the remainy bits of the shires?isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
https://www.survation.com/what-does-the-british-public-now-think-about-brexit/0 -
It was actually Boris with his plans for a flight out of Egypt that went a wee bit astray.DavidL said:Given that we have experts on here can anyone explain how a plane destined for Germany managed to end up in Edinburgh? Would they not have had to lodge the wrong flight plan as well, otherwise they would presumably have been notified that they were off course at an early stage? How on earth could that not be noticed? How did they manage to get a landing slot at Edinburgh? It just seems really, really strange.
0 -
We rejoin the EUMarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.
0 -
Meanwhile, in grievance fetish news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-477018760 -
Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting bored with every second post being a bad pun. It was fun for a while but it's making reading the threads tedious. Maybe ease off a bit?0
-
The Euros will be interesting elections, but hard to see the Tories doing well in them. We do have the Locals as a flagpost first of course.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.0 -
Brexit has engaged millions of people in politics like nothing before it. Facebook used to be politics free until 2016, my newsfeed is now littered with pro Brexit/Tommy Robinson/Farage anti establishment links from people who I would have assumed never usually voted. Honestly in the non university educated, blue collar/tradesmen world people were already angry before yesterday.Foxy said:
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Tory canvassers have already been reporting difficulty on the doorsteps well before we got to Letwin.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.0 -
Trump literally boasted about the size of his manhood during one of the debates, so who is the biggest knob in British politics?isam said:
Who will be the British Trump I wonder? The opportunity is now huuuuuuugekjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
Are you Ante all these puns?NickPalmer said:Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting bored with every second post being a bad pun. It was fun for a while but it's making reading the threads tedious. Maybe ease off a bit?
0 -
You fiend Nick, that ones so subtle I can’t fathom it!NickPalmer said:Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting bored with every second post being a bad pun. It was fun for a while but it's making reading the threads tedious. Maybe ease off a bit?
0 -
You Jeremiah, you! What a revelationSquareRoot said:
It would be a Job and a half.,OldKingCole said:
Pass it over to the Judges? Or wouldn't that be ruth-less enough?SquareRoot said:
you had better check the NumbersNigelb said:
And such an event would lead to an Exodus of half the Tory party..Gardenwalker said:
If he thinks he can just Toot-and-come-in to 10 Downing Street he should think again.SquareRoot said:
Boris is like a bul-rush in a china shopydoethur said:
And he delta very bad hand to May, and indeed the rest of us.SquareRoot said:
He is in de-Nileydoethur said:
There's a general feeling he isn't being Pharoah about Brexit.IanB2 said:
Everyone hates Boris, our new Moses.OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
0 -
Be careful in the echo chamber isam.isam said:
Brexit has engaged millions of people in politics like nothing before it. Facebook used to be politics free until 2016, my newsfeed is now littered with pro Brexit/Tommy Robinson/Farage anti establishment links from people who I would have assumed never usually voted. Honestly in the non university educated, blue collar/tradesmen world people were already angry before yesterday.Foxy said:
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Certainly Brexit has politically engaged millions at either end of the spectrum, but also bored rigid many others who cannot see its relevance to their lives.0 -
Can't see the locals going well for the Tories. Almost any potential Tory has reason to be discontented with the shambles of the government, and a local election vote is an ideal way to make a protest without risking Corbyn. The LibDems could do very well in the South on the back of the Revoke/PV movement.Foxy said:
The Euros will be interesting elections, but hard to see the Tories doing well in them. We do have the Locals as a flagpost first of course.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.0 -
A comment by Nick Palmer of Biblical proportions .....NickPalmer said:Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting bored with every second post being a bad pun. It was fun for a while but it's making reading the threads tedious. Maybe ease off a bit?
0 -
isam said:
I see it completely the opposite way. I think it's Remain voters who have no reason to ever vote Conservative again and rapidly decreasing reasons to ever vote Labour again either. Though I agree with you that the end result is the same - the potential decline of the main parties.CD13 said:Mr B2,
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?0 -
Looks like Norway Plus or Customs Union may have a better chance as according to Benn on Wednesday MPs do not just have to vote for only one option but can vote for as many as they might be willing to support. Only if one option does not then get a majority does it go to preferences on Monday0
-
The Spanish have already rejected the Mexican government request to apologise for Cortez' and human rights abuses committed during the invasion, preferring instead a 'constructive perspective'Morris_Dancer said:Meanwhile, in grievance fetish news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-477018760 -
R4 headlines: John Curtice confirms polling majority for Remain is increasing0
-
Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....0 -
The bigger irony is that until very recently they were viewed as entirely mainstream Tories.DavidL said:
Part of the farce here is that he and Letwin still have the Tory whip (not that that makes any difference to their behavior of course). Minority governments, eh? What a hoot.Sean_F said:I expect this will not be a good time for Dominic Grieve to seek a vote of confidence from his association.
0 -
Scottish Unionists do not want to encourage second referendums..CarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1110441204381032448
If Brexit is a spasm of English Nationalism, is Revoke a spasm of English internationalism?
Or something else?
0 -
LOL, how much more embarrassment can her brass neck take. You what have thought she would have slunk off by now.edmundintokyo said:
Why would she resign? She's still PM, she can still win confidence votes.OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
She's no longer in charge of implementing Brexit, but who would want to be in charge of implementing Brexit?0 -
Is the betrayal not Brexiting or not doing it in a certain way? I can understand the former. The latter makes much less sense.isam said:
Brexit has engaged millions of people in politics like nothing before it. Facebook used to be politics free until 2016, my newsfeed is now littered with pro Brexit/Tommy Robinson/Farage anti establishment links from people who I would have assumed never usually voted. Honestly in the non university educated, blue collar/tradesmen world people were already angry before yesterday.Foxy said:
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
0 -
I am being careful, I was only allowed back on that proviso!Foxy said:
Be careful in the echo chamber isam.isam said:
Brexit has engaged millions of people in politics like nothing before it. Facebook used to be politics free until 2016, my newsfeed is now littered with pro Brexit/Tommy Robinson/Farage anti establishment links from people who I would have assumed never usually voted. Honestly in the non university educated, blue collar/tradesmen world people were already angry before yesterday.Foxy said:
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Certainly Brexit has politically engaged millions at either end of the spectrum, but also bored rigid many others who cannot see its relevance to their lives.0 -
By negotiation. It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure, though that's a feature rather than a bug.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.
That said, it's a treaty arrangement, and not a constitutional one, so simpler than our current predicament.0 -
Dr Fox,
I don't particularly care which way it ends anymore but the transparent lies will rankle. The LDs I slightly excuse because they were honest from the start. Anti-democratic but honestly so.
But to lie so brazenly is not just dishonest, but insultingly so. "Oh, they're stupid, most will swallow this bollocks." You may suspect they're lying but you tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. No more. At my age, I should have known better, I suppose.
Could the MPs vote to have jobs for life by abolishing elections? Do they have the power? That way, they won't face any come-uppance. Would any legal experts like to comment?
0 -
We will have to make do with an anti-semite taking us to the promised land of Venezeula.kjohnw said:
That is what such a betrayal will create the perfect storm for a trumpesque leader to emergeisam said:
Who will be the British Trump I wonder? The opportunity is now huuuuuuugekjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
The high-pitched whining from well to-do Remainers as their world crashes and burns will only be audible to dogs and dolphins.0 -
impossible to make it worse.CarlottaVance said:
Because she might "enjoy" watching MPs make a bigger horlicks of it than she has?OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
0 -
How are things going in Newport West? Any serious indicators as to the result. Actual canvassing for actual votes.IanB2 said:
Tory canvassers have already been reporting difficulty on the doorsteps well before we got to Letwin.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.
And how about the recall petition in Peterborough.0 -
-
I think the public would have thought no deal more likely that MP's filibustering until they could ignore the result!CarlottaVance said:Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....0 -
If we leave in name only e.g. single market or customs union that will likely be what we end up with in perpetuity ie an associate membership of the EU and a campaign to rejoin will die a death. Rejoininf with the Single Currency etc is more likely with No Deal or EUref2 and a big Remain winMorris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
Finally, a triumph for democracy as the People's Representatives seek to overturn the decadent populism of the electorate.
Given how things have progressed generally, I anticipate the worst possible outcome (probably leaving in name only, with a campaign to rejoin and be shackled into the single currency. Oh, and the rise of the far right).0 -
In reply to isam:
I see it completely the opposite way. I think it's Remain voters who have no reason to ever vote Conservative again and rapidly decreasing reasons to ever vote Labour again either. Though I agree with you that the end result is the same - the potential decline of the main parties.
0 -
After forty-odd years, my days of door-knocking for the Conservative Party are no more.IanB2 said:
Tory canvassers have already been reporting difficulty on the doorsteps well before we got to Letwin.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.
I wouldn't have a clue what to say. "Vote for us, we really aren't as shite as the other lot, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary..." is hardly going to cut it.0 -
-
Departure is departure; it is a legal event.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. F, generally, I think vox pops on the news are irksome. But I still remember a Dutch voter explaining why he voted for Geert Wilders despite disliking him. The voter said the country was sick, and he preferred strong medicine to none.
I imagine that sort of thinking could be one ingredient in the recipe for the plausible rise of the far right. Teaching voters you'll renege on manifesto commitments, then, a decade later, that you'll respect their choice in a referendum and then don't, is damned silly.
I do wonder what course the EU-philes will chart. As I see it, their main options are:
Revocation (via the Commons)
Referendum (to secure revoke that way)
Departure in name only, seeking to return immediately
There is no such thing as 'in name only', which is simply a slogan coined by the mendacious.0 -
Seems bizarre, you would expect gate would have said Edinburgh , as you say boarding passes , pilots logs and air traffic control. Very bizarre indeed.ydoethur said:
I'd just like to know why nobody was actually checking boarding passes. Gross breach of security.DavidL said:Given that we have experts on here can anyone explain how a plane destined for Germany managed to end up in Edinburgh? Would they not have had to lodge the wrong flight plan as well, otherwise they would presumably have been notified that they were off course at an early stage? How on earth could that not be noticed? How did they manage to get a landing slot at Edinburgh? It just seems really, really strange.
0 -
Not Brexiting, I have said dozens of times I would have accpeted any deal any PM struck, even Camerons Remain deal, but MPs should not have got a vote on it.SouthamObserver said:
Is the betrayal not Brexiting or not doing it in a certain way? I can understand the former. The latter makes much less sense.isam said:
Brexit has engaged millions of people in politics like nothing before it. Facebook used to be politics free until 2016, my newsfeed is now littered with pro Brexit/Tommy Robinson/Farage anti establishment links from people who I would have assumed never usually voted. Honestly in the non university educated, blue collar/tradesmen world people were already angry before yesterday.Foxy said:
It would depend on how bothered they were by the whole Brexit issue. There are hard core Leavers and Remainers, perhaps 5 million of each, and around 20 million voters who are bored of the whole thing and just want it over, not particularly caring which way it ends.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Then we have a GE and each party can outline their vision of life outside the EU, giving the next PM a mandate for their manifesto.
But what has happened here is such a disgrace. It was so predictable yet I just couldnt believe they would have the nerve to do it.0 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZYisam said:
I think the public would have thought no deal more likely that MP's filibustering until they could ignore the result!CarlottaVance said:Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....
0 -
Though more voters, 64%, have the Deal as their second choice than the 55% who have Remaining in the EU as their first choiceScott_P said:0 -
-
So as I expected, no "Article 50" equivalent. We can't just walk away from it when the voters wake up and go "You f*cking WHAT????"Nigelb said:
By negotiation. It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure, though that's a feature rather than a bug.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.
That said, it's a treaty arrangement, and not a constitutional one, so simpler than our current predicament.
Norway is a horror show waiting to open.0 -
Good Lord that video has been so discredited its like admitting liking Michael Jackson! Even if it werent edited to exclude context, No deal would have been less of a betrayal then not leavinglogical_song said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZYisam said:
I think the public would have thought no deal more likely that MP's filibustering until they could ignore the result!CarlottaVance said:Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....0 -
The British system makes this difficult. First of all, we have a monarch, not a president. (Halleluyah.) Second, FPTP makes it difficult for a new party to achieve power (though once one does get over 30% it has a good chance of "breaking the mould".) So the main avenue towards such a leader is via Tories/Labour. Maybe Boris? But I'm sceptical that such a leader would help his party to victory.kjohnw said:
That is what such a betrayal will create the perfect storm for a trumpesque leader to emergeisam said:
Who will be the British Trump I wonder? The opportunity is now huuuuuuugekjohnw said:
My son works for network rail and everyone he works with say they will never vote again if brexit is betrayed . The contempt for politicians has fallen to rock bottomisam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.0 -
GE is only way now imho.
0 -
Discrdited? Thsese guys are saying those words are they not?isam said:
Good Lord that video has been so discredited its like admitting liking Michael Jackson! Even if it werent edited to exclude context, No deal would have been less of a betrayal then not leavinglogical_song said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZYisam said:
I think the public would have thought no deal more likely that MP's filibustering until they could ignore the result!CarlottaVance said:Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....0 -
Good question. Any treaty tying the UK into an indefinite backstop is worse than either Revoke or leaving before agreeing our future relationship with the EU. The only way that you can get the backstop off the table is to force the EU's hand by leaving first and starting negotiations afresh from there.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.0 -
As I said, we can then rejoin the EU.MarqueeMark said:
So as I expected, no "Article 50" equivalent. We can't just walk away from it when the voters wake up and go "You f*cking WHAT????"Nigelb said:
By negotiation. It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure, though that's a feature rather than a bug.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.
That said, it's a treaty arrangement, and not a constitutional one, so simpler than our current predicament.
Norway is a horror show waiting to open.0 -
This is special
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449110702833665
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449275798990848
Huh. If only there was a way to change the Parliamentary arithmetic...0 -
Bah Humbug!NickPalmer said:Maybe it's just me, but I'm getting bored with every second post being a bad pun. It was fun for a while but it's making reading the threads tedious. Maybe ease off a bit?
0 -
You lost me at "Hypothetical"Scott_P said:0 -
Well this is all jolly good isn’t it? I guess May is waiting for all plan Bs to be voted down before coming back one last time.0
-
The weariness of the voters is definitely a factor.
In the short term, I no longer care how it ends as long as it does. But MPs will take years to be trusted again, if ever. Let's remain then as a memorial to the lying creatures that slither, and lie to one and all, in the HoC.
A tourist attraction for a different reason.0 -
-
I'll have to leave this onelogical_song said:
Discrdited? Thsese guys are saying those words are they not?isam said:
Good Lord that video has been so discredited its like admitting liking Michael Jackson! Even if it werent edited to exclude context, No deal would have been less of a betrayal then not leavinglogical_song said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xGt3QmRSZYisam said:
I think the public would have thought no deal more likely that MP's filibustering until they could ignore the result!CarlottaVance said:Bollocks....
https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1110441490831077376
Which I gather Mr Blunt prefers....0 -
What international treaties of significance can we 'just walk away from' ?MarqueeMark said:
So as I expected, no "Article 50" equivalent. We can't just walk away from it when the voters wake up and go "You f*cking WHAT????"Nigelb said:
By negotiation. It wouldn't be easy, that's for sure, though that's a feature rather than a bug.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?Nigelb said:
There isn’t - and that is the direct consequence of May presenting a hung Parliament with a fait accompli, with barely the time to rubber stamp it, let alone make another choice.SouthamObserver said:
From here surely the DUP would want a softer, UK-wide Brexit that essentially takes the possibility of a separate status for Northern Ireland off the table - or no Brexit at all.IanB2 said:
The two scenarios that seem to be rising in probability are May's deal, on the basis that the ERG and DUP finally smell the coffee, or a GE, on the basis that the clash between Parliament's preference and Government preference can't otherwise be resolved.DavidL said:So what is the next stage in this farce? Presumably the Commons will vote for a second referendum or, at the least, a confirmatory referendum seeking approval of any deal that is done with an alternative of remain before departure? What will May do then?
Have the ERG worked out they've lost yet or is that still much for them to grasp? Idiots doesn't come close.
Problem with May's deal is that just as she wins over her extremists she is losing Labour and Tory remainer support. They now have alternatives to root for.
That said, I am now totally lost. There is no logic to any of this. All I do know is that I cannot think of another PM who has been so humiliated and emasculated, and remained in office.
I’ve said before that the only way out of this I can see is Norway, as it is the option which takes away the least from those who voted against Brexit, while still complying with the terms of the referendum vote.
And it is a stable solution, which retains the potential for future movement in either direction, without requiring it.
That said, it's a treaty arrangement, and not a constitutional one, so simpler than our current predicament.
Norway is a horror show waiting to open.
You are setting an absurd test.
And for someone prepared to contemplate No Deal (which I believe you are ?), it is a ridiculous critique.0 -
I doubt they will have a choiceNo_Offence_Alan said:
Scottish Unionists do not want to encourage second referendums..CarlottaVance said:https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1110441204381032448
If Brexit is a spasm of English Nationalism, is Revoke a spasm of English internationalism?
Or something else?0 -
I believe there is a 6 month notice period on both sides to cancel the whole thing. We're not likely to be in the EEA on the same terms as Norway in my opinion. The EU are tightening up their arrangements.MarqueeMark said:
I'll ask again - what is the mechanism for leaving Norway?
0 -
"I fear a British Donald Trump. I fear such a person will steal the slogans of the Right and the merciless, dishonest propaganda methods of the Left – as the US President has done. I fear that the rise of such a figure is the likely outcome of the catastrophe caused by David Cameron’s folly in calling a referendum, and everyone else’s folly – of walking into such an obvious trap. It barely matters now how the whole thing ends. The sense of disappointment and betrayal now abroad is here to stay. A lot of people are not going to be forgiven for their part in the EU referendum fiasco."CD13 said:The weariness of the voters is definitely a factor.
In the short term, I no longer care how it ends as long as it does. But MPs will take years to be trusted again, if ever. Let's remain then as a memorial to the lying creatures that slither, and lie to one and all, in the HoC.
A tourist attraction for a different reason.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6843465/PETER-HITCHENS-fear-British-Trump-wholl-crush-civilisation.html0 -
-
They do. Although I suspect that the PM might prorogue or the Queen interveneCD13 said:Dr Fox,
I don't particularly care which way it ends anymore but the transparent lies will rankle. The LDs I slightly excuse because they were honest from the start. Anti-democratic but honestly so.
But to lie so brazenly is not just dishonest, but insultingly so. "Oh, they're stupid, most will swallow this bollocks." You may suspect they're lying but you tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. No more. At my age, I should have known better, I suppose.
Could the MPs vote to have jobs for life by abolishing elections? Do they have the power? That way, they won't face any come-uppance. Would any legal experts like to comment?0 -
Revealing, and thoroughly depressing, thread. This is why populist jingoism works so well...
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110326676821630977
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110327555859628033
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110328007238078464
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110329295417729024
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/11103301262842716160 -
The decline in the number of self-reported leave voters in the sample over time is the most interesting thing here, and I think the interpretation of the top line depends on what is driving that.Scott_P said:
It can't all be down to the grim reaper (sorry Leavers, I am not celebrating it or putting it on a tea towel but your chaps do have a tendency to die). So is the survey failing to properly sample the population so that Leavers are under-represented? You'd assume they have tried their best to get a representative sample, and as I understand it these guys are good at this.
So is it down to false recall? Some Leavers so embarrassed by the current shambles that they have forgotten they voted for it? If this is the explanation then could other samples that weight by Leave vs Remain be over-weighting the Leave voters? That's potentially very bad news for the Tories. Any theories as to what's going on?0 -
3 minutes more than they used to spend talking about Politics on the train I would say.Scott_P said:Revealing, and thoroughly depressing, thread. This is why populist jingoism works so well...
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110326676821630977
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110327555859628033
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110328007238078464
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110329295417729024
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/11103301262842716160 -
Not if we are in the EU, ironically.CD13 said:Dr Fox,
I don't particularly care which way it ends anymore but the transparent lies will rankle. The LDs I slightly excuse because they were honest from the start. Anti-democratic but honestly so.
But to lie so brazenly is not just dishonest, but insultingly so. "Oh, they're stupid, most will swallow this bollocks." You may suspect they're lying but you tend to give them the benefit of the doubt. No more. At my age, I should have known better, I suppose.
Could the MPs vote to have jobs for life by abolishing elections? Do they have the power? That way, they won't face any come-uppance. Would any legal experts like to comment?0 -
Oprah tells me that de-Nile is not a river in Egypt...SquareRoot said:
He is in de-Nileydoethur said:
There's a general feeling he isn't being Pharoah about Brexit.IanB2 said:
Everyone hates Boris, our new Moses.OldKingCole said:First; wow what a morning after such a night. I cannot understand why Mrs May does not resign.
0 -
I'd go with false recall. It's always harder to find people who recall supporting the losing side.OnlyLivingBoy said:
The decline in the number of self-reported leave voters in the sample over time is the most interesting thing here, and I think the interpretation of the top line depends on what is driving that.Scott_P said:
It can't all be down to the grim reaper (sorry Leavers, I am not celebrating it or putting it on a tea towel but your chaps do have a tendency to die). So is the survey failing to properly sample the population so that Leavers are under-represented? You'd assume they have tried their best to get a representative sample, and as I understand it these guys are good at this.
So is it down to false recall? Some Leavers so embarrassed by the current shambles that they have forgotten they voted for it? If this is the explanation then could other samples that weight by Leave vs Remain be over-weighting the Leave voters? That's potentially very bad news for the Tories. Any theories as to what's going on?
My mother is a case in point. She told me on referendum day she reluctantly voted Remain, worried about the implications of Brexit. Several times subsequently she has assured me she voted leave. We haven't spoken about it recently; I will have to see if she has switched her recall back again now.0 -
OGH has an idea (before he corrects the typo...)OnlyLivingBoy said:Any theories as to what's going on?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB A massive problem for the government appears to be that there has been a shit in opinion since 2016. https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/11104439497752985620 -
-
They are both accurate commentsScott_P said:This is special
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449110702833665
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449275798990848
Huh. If only there was a way to change the Parliamentary arithmetic...
You don’t have the time to change Parliament (in his view) and if you don’t change Parliament there’s no point in changing PM0 -
Its also why opinion polls get it wrong so often. People like those overheard on the train never show up in them, but their votes are worth the same amount as anyone on here, and there are several million more of them.isam said:
3 minutes more than they used to spend talking about Politics on the train I would say.Scott_P said:Revealing, and thoroughly depressing, thread. This is why populist jingoism works so well...
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110326676821630977
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110327555859628033
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110328007238078464
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110329295417729024
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/11103301262842716160 -
Re "They all still think we're leaving on 29 March..."isam said:
3 minutes more than they used to spend talking about Politics on the train I would say. The academics are so out of touch they make my point for meScott_P said:Revealing, and thoroughly depressing, thread. This is why populist jingoism works so well...
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110326676821630977
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110327555859628033
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110328007238078464
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110329295417729024
https://twitter.com/alexandrabulat/status/1110330126284271616
There are going to be a lot of anecdotal reports from the weekend onwards along the lines of:
"There you are see, all that fuss about chaos after we leave Europe and it's all fine!" 0 -
Opinion polls never capture the like of the girls on the train you citedScott_P said:
OGH has an idea (before he corrects the typo...)OnlyLivingBoy said:Any theories as to what's going on?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB A massive problem for the government appears to be that there has been a shit in opinion since 2016. https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/11104439497752985620 -
"But more than 10 years of opposition is a long time, and many people now remember things differently. Now only 37% of the public say they believed military action against Saddam Hussein was right at the time, instead of the 54% recorded at the time."IanB2 said:
I'd go with false recall. It's always harder to find people who recall supporting the losing side.OnlyLivingBoy said:
The decline in the number of self-reported leave voters in the sample over time is the most interesting thing here, and I think the interpretation of the top line depends on what is driving that.Scott_P said:
It can't all be down to the grim reaper (sorry Leavers, I am not celebrating it or putting it on a tea towel but your chaps do have a tendency to die). So is the survey failing to properly sample the population so that Leavers are under-represented? You'd assume they have tried their best to get a representative sample, and as I understand it these guys are good at this.
So is it down to false recall? Some Leavers so embarrassed by the current shambles that they have forgotten they voted for it? If this is the explanation then could other samples that weight by Leave vs Remain be over-weighting the Leave voters? That's potentially very bad news for the Tories. Any theories as to what's going on?
My mother is a case in point. She told me on referendum day she reluctantly voted Remain, worried about the implications of Brexit. Several times subsequently she has assured me she voted leave. We haven't spoken about it recently; I will have to see if she has switched her recall back again now.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2015/06/03/remembering-iraq
0 -
Yeah I also think that is the most likely explanation, or at least the biggest factor. But don't regular polls weight by referendum vote? Isn't that a big problem if people systematically mis-remember how they voted? Is it possible to track people's recall over time in some of the panels, eg YouGov? (edited for typo).IanB2 said:
I'd go with false recall. It's always harder to find people who recall supporting the losing side.OnlyLivingBoy said:
The decline in the number of self-reported leave voters in the sample over time is the most interesting thing here, and I think the interpretation of the top line depends on what is driving that.Scott_P said:
It can't all be down to the grim reaper (sorry Leavers, I am not celebrating it or putting it on a tea towel but your chaps do have a tendency to die). So is the survey failing to properly sample the population so that Leavers are under-represented? You'd assume they have tried their best to get a representative sample, and as I understand it these guys are good at this.
So is it down to false recall? Some Leavers so embarrassed by the current shambles that they have forgotten they voted for it? If this is the explanation then could other samples that weight by Leave vs Remain be over-weighting the Leave voters? That's potentially very bad news for the Tories. Any theories as to what's going on?
My mother is a case in point. She told me on referendum day she reluctantly voted Remain, worried about the implications of Brexit. Several times subsequently she has assured me she voted leave. We haven't spoken about it recently; I will have to see if she has switched her recall back again now.0 -
At the end of the day both big parties only exist because of the door knockers. If people like you give up we all lose out. Please carry on!MarqueeMark said:
After forty-odd years, my days of door-knocking for the Conservative Party are no more.IanB2 said:
Tory canvassers have already been reporting difficulty on the doorsteps well before we got to Letwin.TGOHF said:
There will be an early opportunity in the Euro and local elections in a few weeks time.IanB2 said:
The memory of this fiasco will deter all but the ultras for a generation. It will be like arguing for more union rights after the Winter of Discontent.Sean_F said:
IMHO, if Brexit is stopped, then rather like reneging on a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, very little will happen in the short term. In the long term, the shoe will continue to chafe, and people will end up voting for a more hardline option.isam said:
The only upside from this betrayal is we know there is circa 50% of the nations voters who will be fired up to wreak revenge at the next GE... this has to be the end of one of the main parties, why would any leave voter ever back one of them again?CD13 said:Mr B2,
"Which is why there will probably be a referendum at the end, to confirm the voters' preference."
The result of that referendum is irrelevant. It's the simple five-letter word that will endure. That is TRUST.
They cannot be trusted to keep their word, and once that is gone, we may as well have dictatorship. Manifestos are just words, solemn promises are only hot air. They knowingly lie and they make no apology for it. We can carry on voting but if you don't know who they represent, they may as well be cardboard cut-outs.
Suspect this will be eye opening for Mr Letwin when his party doesn’t perform that well.
I wouldn't have a clue what to say. "Vote for us, we really aren't as shite as the other lot, despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary..." is hardly going to cut it.0 -
I wish people would stop talking about Boris Johnson.Scott_P said:
OGH has an idea (before he corrects the typo...)OnlyLivingBoy said:Any theories as to what's going on?
Mike Smithson @MSmithsonPB A massive problem for the government appears to be that there has been a shit in opinion since 2016. https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/11104439497752985620 -
If it changes the whipping priorities, it changes the arithmetic. May uses her payroll to block alternatives to her deal. If the payroll got behind a better plan B it would make a difference.Charles said:
They are both accurate commentsScott_P said:This is special
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449110702833665
https://twitter.com/Alan_McGuinness/status/1110449275798990848
Huh. If only there was a way to change the Parliamentary arithmetic...
You don’t have the time to change Parliament (in his view) and if you don’t change Parliament there’s no point in changing PM0 -
After listening to some of the debate from the HOC yesterday I turned to my wife and said
'Why listen to these incompetent mps acting like unruly children when we can have a wonderful time, intelligent chat and just utter joy with our grandchildren 5 and 7 who were with us'
From that time until now we have not listened or watched the news, had a great quiet evening, and waking up to the news that a coup is taking place in the HOC and ERG members pushing the panic button is funny if it was not serious. You could not make this up. The answer is in plain sight
Pass TM deal and leave on the 22nd May0 -
Morning PB,
Exciting news that should Labour win the next election the Treasury will be sent back to school to learn about Marxist economics.
That'll teach em... 0
