politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Today could be the day that Corbyn’s Labour Party finally spli
Comments
-
Been in a meeting 10-12. Got out (of the meeting, not the Labour Party), saw this, wondered why. Still can't answer that, have asked my pro-Blair friends on WhatsApp and "They've simply had enough" was the response of one who has himself simply had enough.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Fair play - you did seem confidentRochdalePioneers said:As I said last night, nobody will quit this week...
They are all bloody idiots. And no doubt they have positioned "The Independent Group" to hoover up more fall outs of Labour and then the fall outs of the Tories. Whats the point in people like Boles and Soubry staying around when the zealots are after their heads?
A schism was coming. In both parties. Had expected it to happen once no deal Brexit becomes the only remaining option. But as I also posted over the weekend, Brexit is already done - already happening, the impacts of crash Brexit already hitting with increasing severity. So why wait?0 -
I think Berger going is unfortunate - she's different to the rest in that I don't think she set out to wreck Corbyn from the beginning (she did after all join his first shadow cabinet, and from memory she wasn't one of the main malcontents constantly running to tell the press how awful Corbyn was), and she actually seems to have some substance about her (her work on mental health). Not to mention she, unlike the others, has legitimate grounds for complaint, since she does seem to have faced some pretty horrible antisemitic abuse.RochdalePioneers said:
All of themMarqueeMark said:
The rest though.....yeesh. I doubt Ann Coffey would even be recognised in her own street.0 -
I spoil my ballot more often than I vote for any party - so whilst I am naturally right of centre, I am not permanently allied to any one party.El_Capitano said:
I could believe that, certainly.oxfordsimon said:
It may be the circles in which we move - but I have not heard a single positive thing said about her since she took the seat.El_Capitano said:
That's honestly not the impression I have from people I know in her seat. She seems well-liked and respected, more so than Nicola Blackwood was. Would that those of us lumbered with Robert Courts as an MP could say the same...oxfordsimon said:
Moran is an empty vessel. There is nothing that looks like a political philosophy about her. She has not demonstrated anything that looks like leadership quality - she is a band-wagon jumper and virtue signaller. That doesn't make you a leader.Fenman said:
I agree.IanB2 said:
My reading is that Moran realises Swinson is tarnished and is starting to think herself forward toward the job. Unless today changes everything, of course.El_Capitano said:
Which is why the Lib Dems should, and I think will, elect a leader with no ties to the Coalition era.Roger said:The country needs a political party who supports Remain and aren't the soiled Lib Dems who created the Frankenstein monster Cameron.
I know there are very few LDs who can become leader post-Cable. But it baffles me as to why Moran is seen as viable. She hasn't endeared herself to her constituents since winning her seat. Indeed her posturing has been off-putting.
It may be that living in central Oxford, my perspective is somewhat different to someone who lives in North Oxford or Abingdon.
On a raw political level she (or her agent, who I think is a Focus-wielding operative of the old school) may have made the right calculation there - central Oxford is Lib Dem / Labour / Green in any case, and is never going to vote for a Conservative candidate in a month of Sundays (your good self excepted, I'm presuming!). The trick appears to have been to get the Greens to stand aside, which brought a lot of the Oxford vote on-side, while campaigning and leafleting hard in areas like Abingdon.
Honestly though, I'd far rather have Nicola Blackwood than Robert Courts out here in the sticks.
I had serious issues with Blackwood and her religious views. Evan Harris assumed he would retain the seat with ease - and that arrogance cost him.
I agree that the tactical game being played out last time was effective. But there is no guarantee they could make it happen next time.0 -
If corbyn’s Labour ever get in charge we can’t claim we didn’t know the tactics they would use against those who disagree. They’re telling us!williamglenn said:
0 -
And it would be bollocks. Remainers scared of democracy, who’d have thunk it?IanB2 said:
It could be argued that sitting as an independent isn't as big a step as joining another partyTudorRose said:
Quite!Pulpstar said:
*Checks Labour manifesto* ErrEl_Capitano said:I see Corbyn's gang are merrily tweeting that the departing MPs should voluntarily stand down and restand in by-elections, presumably on the basis that people thought they were voting for a Labour candidate in 2017.
That's a great idea, Jeremy, but how about all your city MPs do the same, on the basis that people appear to have thought in 2017 they were voting for a party that might actually oppose Brexit?
And an interesting contrast with UKIP under Farage, where the default position was that a defection should result in a by-election. This will feed nicely into claims by Brexit supporters that Remainers are not democratic.
0 -
I think this move pushes Labour in a slightly more leave direction actually, the bunch that have left are very remainery so the remaining 250 odd now by default tack toward leave a touch.0
-
Encourage their supporters to individually make the decision to not read their opponents' social media? What a dystopian vision!notme2 said:
If corbyn’s Labour ever get in charge we can’t claim we didn’t know the tactics they would use against those who disagree. They’re telling us!williamglenn said:0 -
Does look that way.Casino_Royale said:
Clearly, both sides are working on a compromise whilst absolutely denying there’ll be any such thing.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1097445622393774081Casino_Royale said:
He does.Richard_Nabavi said:
Methinks he doth protest too much...williamglenn said:0 -
Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group0
-
McDonnell is trying to rewrite history on BBC News right now. He has done NOTHING to effectively deal with anti-semitism. Nothing.
There is no desire within the Corbyn bubble to do anything about it.0 -
We can but hope that they don't allow the MP for Peterborough to join - if she is ever allowed to return to the Commons (which ought never to happen - but who knows these days)RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
Ha - that's St Aldate's for you. How anyone can pass up the chance of dignified, thoughtful worship at Christ Church in favour of rattling a tambourine on the other side of the street is beyond me. Although in my experience the real wingnuts are at St Ebbe's...oxfordsimon said:I had serious issues with Blackwood and her religious views.
0 -
Field has said no. I imagine they'd welcome Woodcock & Lewis; O'Mara & Onasanya, not so much.RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
Can't comment about how widely recognised she is, but I like Ann Coffey - she gives the impression of competence and clear-headedness. I'm rather glad she's involved.Danny565 said:
I think Berger going is unfortunate - she's different to the rest in that I don't think she set out to wreck Corbyn from the beginning (she did after all join his first shadow cabinet, and from memory she wasn't one of the main malcontents constantly running to tell the press how awful Corbyn was), and she actually seems to have some substance about her (her work on mental health). Not to mention she has legitimate grounds for complaint, since she does seem to have faced some pretty horrible antisemitic abuse.RochdalePioneers said:
All of themMarqueeMark said:
The rest though.....yeesh. I doubt Ann Coffey would even be recognised in her own street.
Chuka always gives the impression of pitying everyone who doesn't have the good fortune to be Chuka Umanna. Still, rather him as PM than Corbyn. Rather any of them than Corbyn. Even Mike Gapes.0 -
Sex pest PartyIanB2 said:Looks like they could soon be eight: from Woodcock: "It was inspiring and humbling to see my friends setting out why they are leaving the Labour Party to start something new. A sad day for them but the beginning of a time of great hope for all those of us who want our country and our politics to change."
0 -
Kudos for your acumen then!RochdalePioneers said:
All of themMarqueeMark said:
I'm now sure that nobody will follow them.....0 -
Yes it's Chuka Umunna, not Chukka Ummuna or Chukka Umuna or Chukka Umunna or Chuka Ummuna or Chuka Umuna.
This is a major obstacle for him if IG were to pick him as leader.
Another reason to go for Mike Grapes.0 -
If you look around Europe it's pretty clear that the only thing that holds back new political movements is our outmoded electoral system. It props up the 2 old parties who simply have to wait for Buggin's turn however clueless and incompetent they are.Danny565 said:
This is the same sort of argument that's been made at almost every election for the past 40 years about how the conditions were good for a third party to make a breakthrough (most recently for the Lib Dems in 2017).El_Capitano said:
But the market for "people who think the current Conservative government couldn't run a whelk stall, but will never vote for a party led by an unreconstructed Trotskyite" is potentially quite big, no?Danny565 said:
We already know that from their "statement" - Clegg-esque waffle about a "mixed economy", how they essentially want to keep the economy running the way it has for the past 40 years, but put on a sadface when they see homeless people.Slackbladder said:
Depends what they are for beyond Brexit.
To be fair, there is a market for that - there's quite a lot of wealthy liberals who want to (virtue-)signal that they're compassionate and therefore not Tory, but who also don't want to actually give up any more of their income to put their "compassion" into practice (nice guys though I'm sure they are, Southam Observer and Roger are good examples of that). But it's just not a very large market, nor is it concentrated in marginal seats.
The only party that's done it in recent times is the SNP, and they only because they actually got a set of policy positions that lots of people agreed with, rather than just benefitting from how crap people thought the established alternatives were. If there isn't a strong enough "pull factor" from the new party, people will just default back to the same old parties like usual; a "push factor" from the two main parties is not and has never been enough on its own for a new party to rise.0 -
Burger or Coffee for me.kinabalu said:Yes it's Chuka Umunna, not Chukka Ummuna or Chukka Umuna or Chukka Umunna or Chuka Ummuna or Chuka Umuna.
This is a major obstacle for him if IG were to pick him as leader.
Another reason to go for Mike Grapes.0 -
If you don't brand and promote your new party until after Brexit comes to a head, there is less chance that party will be identified simply as a second referendum party?
Tbh, I don't fully understand who is doing what, when and why at the moment. If I were pushing for a second referendum within Labour, for instance, I'd have been publicly demanding deadlines for each step of the Labour approach to reach that point, for at least the last 3 months.0 -
Indeed. One could call it a People's Vote.:)brokenwheel said:
Why would they have thought that, since Labour's 2017 manifesto didn't oppose brexit?El_Capitano said:I see Corbyn's gang are merrily tweeting that the departing MPs should voluntarily stand down and restand in by-elections, presumably on the basis that people thought they were voting for a Labour candidate in 2017.
That's a great idea, Jeremy, but how about all your city MPs do the same, on the basis that people appear to have thought in 2017 they were voting for a party that might actually oppose Brexit?
But the Corbynites have a point; the people didn't know what they were voting for when they elected the splitters, so the people deserve a second vote...0 -
I looked at the list and really most of them are personally tarnished to the point that you would not want them or very pro Brexit (eg Frank Field). Not sure I saw any obvious candidates.RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
Frank Field isn't joining it ... "he has his own plans" per a tweet from newly St Hodgesoxfordsimon said:
We can but hope that they don't allow the MP for Peterborough to join - if she is ever allowed to return to the Commons (which ought never to happen - but who knows these days)RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
I am told there are no tambourines used at St Aldate's - other than by the musicians in the band.El_Capitano said:
Ha - that's St Aldate's for you. How anyone can pass up the chance of dignified, thoughtful worship at Christ Church in favour of rattling a tambourine on the other side of the street is beyond me. Although in my experience the real wingnuts are at St Ebbe's...oxfordsimon said:I had serious issues with Blackwood and her religious views.
But speaking in tongues does seem to happen there....0 -
British politics was in an unsustainable position until today, where the only national party to be fully anti-Brexit is marooned on about 7% in the polls because of association with a previous coalition. Something had to happen in those circumstances, given that around 50-55% of voters are against Brexit.0
-
Litigation risk corbynitebigjohnowls said:
Sex pest PartyIanB2 said:Looks like they could soon be eight: from Woodcock: "It was inspiring and humbling to see my friends setting out why they are leaving the Labour Party to start something new. A sad day for them but the beginning of a time of great hope for all those of us who want our country and our politics to change."
0 -
For the many (well as long as you never disagree with us), not the few (the tories, the Jews, anybody who doesn’t worship the jessiah).notme2 said:
If corbyn’s Labour ever get in charge we can’t claim we didn’t know the tactics they would use against those who disagree. They’re telling us!williamglenn said:0 -
The immediate reaction from the first person I asked, a fairly conservative chap, was what are they complaining about Corbyn has been clear on anti semitism and did Berger deserve the criticism she got.DecrepitJohnL said:
Dan Hodges needs to get out more. This evening, DecrepitPolls will run an impromptu focus group in the fish and chip shop to see if this launch has any traction in a constituency of one of these MPs.rottenborough said:
0 -
Yes, which is why he'll probably not be the eighthbigjohnowls said:
Sex pest PartyIanB2 said:Looks like they could soon be eight: from Woodcock: "It was inspiring and humbling to see my friends setting out why they are leaving the Labour Party to start something new. A sad day for them but the beginning of a time of great hope for all those of us who want our country and our politics to change."
0 -
I hope that, wherever she does choose to stand, LD and CON will stand aside for her to campaign straight against Labour.SouthamObserver said:Luciana Berger standing for the new party in Hendon or Bury would probably have a very good chance.
Not a huge fan of parties standing aside in elections, but prepared to make an exception for Luciana after the way she’s been treated.0 -
Have we heard from Gary Linekar yet?0
-
Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?0 -
Their Statement page has a bunch of "I agree" check-boxes next to each statement so I can tell their website how right I think they are. Amazing.0
-
Yep Neil Fawcett knows his stuff.El_Capitano said:
I could believe that, certainly.oxfordsimon said:
It may be the circles in which we move - but I have not heard a single positive thing said about her since she took the seat.El_Capitano said:
That's honestly not the impression I have from people I know in her seat. She seems well-liked and respected, more so than Nicola Blackwood was. Would that those of us lumbered with Robert Courts as an MP could say the same...oxfordsimon said:
Moran is an empty vessel. There is nothing that looks like a political philosophy about her. She has not demonstrated anything that looks like leadership quality - she is a band-wagon jumper and virtue signaller. That doesn't make you a leader.Fenman said:
I agree.IanB2 said:
My reading is that Moran realises Swinson is tarnished and is starting to think herself forward toward the job. Unless today changes everything, of course.El_Capitano said:
Which is why the Lib Dems should, and I think will, elect a leader with no ties to the Coalition era.Roger said:The country needs a political party who supports Remain and aren't the soiled Lib Dems who created the Frankenstein monster Cameron.
I know there are very few LDs who can become leader post-Cable. But it baffles me as to why Moran is seen as viable. She hasn't endeared herself to her constituents since winning her seat. Indeed her posturing has been off-putting.
It may be that living in central Oxford, my perspective is somewhat different to someone who lives in North Oxford or Abingdon.
On a raw political level she (or her agent, who I think is a Focus-wielding operative of the old school) may have made the right calculation there - central Oxford is Lib Dem / Labour / Green in any case, and is never going to vote for a Conservative candidate in a month of Sundays (your good self excepted, I'm presuming!). The trick appears to have been to get the Greens to stand aside, which brought a lot of the Oxford vote on-side, while campaigning and leafleting hard in areas like Abingdon.
Honestly though, I'd far rather have Nicola Blackwood than Robert Courts out here in the sticks.0 -
Retirement?Scrapheap_as_was said:
Frank Field isn't joining it ... "he has his own plans" per a tweet from newly St Hodgesoxfordsimon said:
We can but hope that they don't allow the MP for Peterborough to join - if she is ever allowed to return to the Commons (which ought never to happen - but who knows these days)RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
Seriously though, these MPs are right to resign from Labour.
Labour is a broad church, always has been, but it does have certain de minimus standards, and one of these - perhaps the single most important one - is that to be a Labour MP you have to prefer a Labour government to a Tory one.
If you fail that test, if you prefer the Tories to be running the country over Labour, but do not feel comfortable actually joining the Tories, and for some reason you have taken umbrage with the Liberal democrats, then the IG is most probably the place for you.0 -
How many of the seven would have left Labour if brexit wasn't a issue ,it's a one issue grouping.RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
-
https://twitter.com/f_grovewhite/status/1097470210142031872rottenborough said:Have we heard from Gary Linekar yet?
0 -
And it doesn't work!Stereotomy said:Their Statement page has a bunch of "I agree" check-boxes next to each statement so I can tell their website how right I think they are. Amazing.
Cross-Origin Request Blocked: The Same Origin Policy disallows reading the remote resource at https://api.theindependent.group/data. (Reason: CORS header 'Access-Control-Allow-Origin' does not match 'https://planb.firstsketch.net').
How are these people so bad at this?0 -
0
-
Soooo Dan Hodges was right after all0
-
Well at this stage I do not think this is a new party, it may become that. At the moment I think this is a attack Corbyn group that is free of having to answer to their local branch. They will attack him week in week out on antisemitism, bullying, support for Brexit, etc. The plan being to bring him down or so that he loses the next GE. They would then like Labour to clean house and let them back into the family.0
-
Exactly right. And that is why I think The Tiggers might have more bite – and bounce – than their detractors think.AndyJS said:British politics was in an unsustainable position until today, where the only national party to be fully anti-Brexit is marooned on about 7% in the polls because of association with a previous coalition. Something had to happen in those circumstances, given that around 50-55% of voters are against Brexit.
0 -
That is an entirely wrongly pitched comment on two levels.NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?
First, what they want is not "distraction and division". What they want is a social democratic Britain. It is pure People's-Front-Of-Judaea Splitterism to claim otherwise.
Second, it isn't "the Labour vote". Labour does not have a God-given right to the progressive vote.
I thought better of Thornberry. The arrogance in that statement has just perfectly encapsulated why a split is needed.0 -
Why would a leaver join a remain grouping ?Scrapheap_as_was said:
Frank Field isn't joining it ... "he has his own plans" per a tweet from newly St Hodgesoxfordsimon said:
We can but hope that they don't allow the MP for Peterborough to join - if she is ever allowed to return to the Commons (which ought never to happen - but who knows these days)RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
My heart's a tad more cynical about Chuka's motivations.rottenborough said:Best summary so far:
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/10974727484635504650 -
In other words, 'you should support the dirty rotten party which Labour has become because there's no acceptable alternative'. A reasonable position, from her point of view, but one oddly jarring given that Labour adamantly refuses to accept a similar argument when Theresa May deploys it in favour of signing the EU Withdrawal Agreement.NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?0 -
When I saw Frank Field recently (he wasin Dartmouth, presumably on a "get away from all this shit" break), I thought how frail he looked. I suspect he will announce he will not stand at the next election.Scrapheap_as_was said:
Frank Field isn't joining it ... "he has his own plans" per a tweet from newly St Hodgesoxfordsimon said:
We can but hope that they don't allow the MP for Peterborough to join - if she is ever allowed to return to the Commons (which ought never to happen - but who knows these days)RochdalePioneers said:Will the Independent Group become the home of Independent MPs like WoodCock, Field, O'Mara etc or will they remain Independent of the Independent Group
0 -
QA is so last decade. Testing is what the customers get to do these days.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is behind Cloudflare but a CDN is not a magic talisman against bad design and implementation. Maybe they did not even test it because QA is not Agile!Sandpit said:
No-one thought to throw a hundred bucks at Cloudflare or AWS to make sure it stayed up on day one, when all the media were going to be looking at it. This stuff really isn’t difficult any more. Poor show.DavidL said:I think that their server has crashed.
0 -
Let’s put it this way Having seen the clips some come off much more genuine than him in their motivates, Berger, Leslie and grapes.Stereotomy said:
My heart's a tad more cynical about Chuka's motivations.rottenborough said:Best summary so far:
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/10974727484635504650 -
Whats the point in her posting that? The main way you can spot a Corbynite is that they demand fealty to Corbyn from those they attack whilst they do the exact opposite of what Corbyn has asked them to do.NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?
Thornberry may as well howl at the moon for all the good that will do. The cult - having screamed "go join the Tories" abuse at these people - is now hurling abuse at them for having done what they demanded and quit.0 -
As Blair was saying yesterday._Anazina_ said:
Exactly right. And that is why I think The Tiggers might have more bite – and bounce – than their detractors think.AndyJS said:British politics was in an unsustainable position until today, where the only national party to be fully anti-Brexit is marooned on about 7% in the polls because of association with a previous coalition. Something had to happen in those circumstances, given that around 50-55% of voters are against Brexit.
A major surprise might be about to happen.0 -
There was once a horse in the Grand National called Polish polish. The announcer said 'This is Polish polish not to be confused with Polish Polish nor polish polish nor polish Polish but Polish polishkinabalu said:Yes it's Chuka Umunna, not Chukka Ummuna or Chukka Umuna or Chukka Umunna or Chuka Ummuna or Chuka Umuna.
This is a major obstacle for him if IG were to pick him as leader.
Another reason to go for Mike Grapes.0 -
Two quick points. Point 1
Those familiar with USA or European Parliament arrangements will be familiar with the concept of the "group" ("caucus" in the States). This separation of "party" outside Parliament and "group" inside is interesting in a UK context.0 -
No, I think she's going to do a Dave and ask for too much. The EU is an incredibly inflexible organisation. With very poor decision making and long term thinking.Casino_Royale said:
Clearly, both sides are working on a compromise whilst absolutely denying there’ll be any such thing.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1097445622393774081Casino_Royale said:
He does.Richard_Nabavi said:
Methinks he doth protest too much...williamglenn said:0 -
Angela Smith just said she won votes at GE2017 by assuring constituents Corbyn would not be PM!0
-
I'm back to getting 503s, but during the brief period it was loading the page, all the links in the navigation bar were broken, as was the hilariously pointless "I agree" feature.Sandpit said:
QA is so last decade. Testing is what the customers get to do these days.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is behind Cloudflare but a CDN is not a magic talisman against bad design and implementation. Maybe they did not even test it because QA is not Agile!Sandpit said:
No-one thought to throw a hundred bucks at Cloudflare or AWS to make sure it stayed up on day one, when all the media were going to be looking at it. This stuff really isn’t difficult any more. Poor show.DavidL said:I think that their server has crashed.
These jokers are responsible: https://www.seraph.agency/0 -
I don't fear competition......Scrapheap_as_was said:
Well said Roger (mk 2)....RochdalePioneers said:As I said last night, nobody will quit this week...
0 -
As for my own views on the Umunna not Party, they are the same as with all of the Tory-enabling scab groups on the left like NHA and TUSC - just fuck off you self-satisfied zealot wazzocks.0
-
Yet still its been swifter, more decisive and more united that our HMG.MaxPB said:
No, I think she's going to do a Dave and ask for too much. The EU is an incredibly inflexible organisation. With very poor decision making and long term thinking.Casino_Royale said:
Clearly, both sides are working on a compromise whilst absolutely denying there’ll be any such thing.williamglenn said:
https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/1097445622393774081Casino_Royale said:
He does.Richard_Nabavi said:
Methinks he doth protest too much...williamglenn said:0 -
Nick has always been of the ‘nothing to see here’ tendency.El_Capitano said:
That is an entirely wrongly pitched comment on two levels.NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?
First, what they want is not "distraction and division". What they want is a social democratic Britain. It is pure People's-Front-Of-Judaea Splitterism to claim otherwise.
Second, it isn't "the Labour vote". Labour does not have a God-given right to the progressive vote.
I thought better of Thornberry. The arrogance in that statement has just perfectly encapsulated why a split is needed.
0 -
Loads of Labour MPs did that. Joan Ryan & Caroline Flint amongst them.DonTsInferno_ said:Angela Smith just said she won votes at GE2017 by assuring constituents Corbyn would not be PM!
0 -
Point 2 isn't as quick as billed...viewcode said:Two quick points. Point 1
Those familiar with USA or European Parliament arrangements will be familiar with the concept of the "group" ("caucus" in the States). This separation of "party" outside Parliament and "group" inside is interesting in a UK context.0 -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WboggjN_G-4RochdalePioneers said:As for my own views on the Umunna not Party, they are the same as with all of the Tory-enabling scab groups on the left like NHA and TUSC - just fuck off you self-satisfied zealot wazzocks.
0 -
Hats off! You got the single 'k' right, the single 'm' right and the double 'nn' right too.Cookie said:Can't comment about how widely recognised she is, but I like Ann Coffey - she gives the impression of competence and clear-headedness. I'm rather glad she's involved.
Chuka always gives the impression of pitying everyone who doesn't have the good fortune to be Chuka Umanna. Still, rather him as PM than Corbyn. Rather any of them than Corbyn. Even Mike Gapes.
And still got it wrong!
But yes, nicely put, 'CU' does appear to rather like himself.0 -
+ Wes StreetingTissue_Price said:
Loads of Labour MPs did that. Joan Ryan & Caroline Flint amongst them.DonTsInferno_ said:Angela Smith just said she won votes at GE2017 by assuring constituents Corbyn would not be PM!
0 -
-
Two quick points. Part 2
However, in the UK the convention is that the group is within the party and it's the party that's important: for example the LOTO is the leader of the Labour party, not the leader of the Labour caucus in the UK Parliament.
So does this separation of party and group affect legal funding and status? For example, will this new group be allowed to access Short Money without an "Independent Party" in existence?0 -
A stirring appeal to the better angels of our nature...RochdalePioneers said:As for my own views on the Umunna not Party, they are the same as with all of the Tory-enabling scab groups on the left like NHA and TUSC - just fuck off you self-satisfied zealot wazzocks.
0 -
-
-
Get me an astronomer. I want to see if the stars are going out...SquareRoot said:Soooo Dan Hodges was right after all
0 -
The effects of this morning arekinabalu said:
Seriously though, these MPs are right to resign from Labour.
Labour is a broad church, always has been, but it does have certain de minimus standards, and one of these - perhaps the single most important one - is that to be a Labour MP you have to prefer a Labour government to a Tory one.
If you fail that test, if you prefer the Tories to be running the country over Labour, but do not feel comfortable actually joining the Tories, and for some reason you have taken umbrage with the Liberal democrats, then the IG is most probably the place for you.
From the centre right perspective, I absolutely sympathise with the 7 and the longer term consequences are so unknowable that it might keep us all going for months if not years. I could vote for any of them for their personal qualities, sense and integrity, and especially their opposition to the new racism of our horrible age.
Planting your flag on the anti Brexit, pro Remain ground is probably less than useful, but more importantly there can be virtually zero chance of a new party succeeding in the liberal/progressive/social democrat ground. It is occupied already, even if by bad tenants. As Matthew Goodwin demonstrates the unoccupied ground is on more populist, traditional and centre right territory.
0 -
Small new tablet. Big old thumbs.IanB2 said:
Point 2 isn't as quick as billed...viewcode said:Two quick points. Point 1
Those familiar with USA or European Parliament arrangements will be familiar with the concept of the "group" ("caucus" in the States). This separation of "party" outside Parliament and "group" inside is interesting in a UK context.0 -
Until the UK changes to a PR system of voting there’s little chance of any new centre party getting anywhere .
I expect the seven to disappear into obscurity after the next election barring perhaps Umunna who has the weight of a heavy Remain seat behind him.0 -
That's not true. 1992 and 2005 show that a poor government will beat a poor opposition. In a different way, so did 2017. It's very rare for a party to take power from opposition without having got their house in order. Feb 1974 is probably the last (and only post-war) instance.OllyT said:
If you look around Europe it's pretty clear that the only thing that holds back new political movements is our outmoded electoral system. It props up the 2 old parties who simply have to wait for Buggin's turn however clueless and incompetent they are.Danny565 said:
This is the same sort of argument that's been made at almost every election for the past 40 years about how the conditions were good for a third party to make a breakthrough (most recently for the Lib Dems in 2017).El_Capitano said:
But the market for "people who think the current Conservative government couldn't run a whelk stall, but will never vote for a party led by an unreconstructed Trotskyite" is potentially quite big, no?Danny565 said:
We already know that from their "statement" - Clegg-esque waffle about a "mixed economy", how they essentially want to keep the economy running the way it has for the past 40 years, but put on a sadface when they see homeless people.Slackbladder said:
Depends what they are for beyond Brexit.
To be fair, there is a market for that - there's quite a lot of wealthy liberals who want to (virtue-)signal that they're compassionate and therefore not Tory, but who also don't want to actually give up any more of their income to put their "compassion" into practice (nice guys though I'm sure they are, Southam Observer and Roger are good examples of that). But it's just not a very large market, nor is it concentrated in marginal seats.
The only party that's done it in recent times is the SNP, and they only because they actually got a set of policy positions that lots of people agreed with, rather than just benefitting from how crap people thought the established alternatives were. If there isn't a strong enough "pull factor" from the new party, people will just default back to the same old parties like usual; a "push factor" from the two main parties is not and has never been enough on its own for a new party to rise.0 -
Is there any evidence that the remaining centrists want to be bound in such a way? Membership of Jeremy Corbyn's shadow Cabinet does not look like it is regarded as a glittering prize.Scott_P said:0 -
Tom Harris:
These are people who have been completely committed to the Labour movement for all of their adult lives, far longer than the twelve quid class warriors who gravitated towards Labour when they realised their extreme views on Ireland and Palestine were finally becoming mainstream under Corbyn.0 -
50%-55% may vote to remain, but only a fraction of those are dedicated Remoaners whose party allegiance depends on its brexit stance. The simple fact is there are a lot of remain voters who are sympathetic to a hard left Labour and a party offering some kind of blairism-cum-yellow bookery is not going to entice them away.AndyJS said:British politics was in an unsustainable position until today, where the only national party to be fully anti-Brexit is marooned on about 7% in the polls because of association with a previous coalition. Something had to happen in those circumstances, given that around 50-55% of voters are against Brexit.
0 -
-
And by the way - sorry to go on, this has made me a bit riled - when a group of MPs expressly call out anti-Semitism in the Labour party, do you not see how accusing them of fomenting distraction and division in "our" ranks is a really, really bad look?NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
Would it not have been better to choose a metaphor other than "the enemy within"?
*stomps off and angrily throws things at things*0 -
-
Unless Wollaston/Allen are able to persuade another 4 or more conservatives to switch sides (and thus deprive the government of its working majority) then I struggle to see the appeal of making the move before Brexit. As part of the parliamentary party their views on Brexit count and they are able to influence May. Outside the party they lose all influence in the short term.0
-
-
Out of curiosity does anyone know has today's actions affected the betting markets for the next election eg overall majority etc?0
-
The use of the word zealot when talking against a group that contains Luciana Berger who left thanks to antisemitism was probably not the best choice of phrase...RochdalePioneers said:As for my own views on the Umunna not Party, they are the same as with all of the Tory-enabling scab groups on the left like NHA and TUSC - just fuck off you self-satisfied zealot wazzocks.
0 -
-
New thread - but this one really ought to break 1000.0
-
Is that true? I'm not as up on my alignments as I used to be, but if I was asked which group would be least likely to Remain, the hard-left would be one of my first choices.brokenwheel said:
50%-55% may vote to remain, but only a fraction of those are dedicated Remoaners whose party allegiance depends on its brexit stance. The simple fact is there are a lot of remain voters who are sympathetic to a hard left Labour and a party offering some kind of blairism-cum-yellow bookery is not going to entice them away.AndyJS said:British politics was in an unsustainable position until today, where the only national party to be fully anti-Brexit is marooned on about 7% in the polls because of association with a previous coalition. Something had to happen in those circumstances, given that around 50-55% of voters are against Brexit.
0 -
They work for Israel...... FFSScott_P said:0 -
He has Arsene Wenger levels of ability in missing stuff he doesn't want to notice.Nigelb said:
Nick has always been of the ‘nothing to see here’ tendency.El_Capitano said:
That is an entirely wrongly pitched comment on two levels.NickPalmer said:Very well-pitched comment from Emily Thornberry:
If you criticise or abuse these individuals, if you impugn their motives, and if you encourage any others to join them, you are helping them not hurting them, because you are taking your eyes off the prize and allowing our movement to be distracted and divided, which is exactly what they want.
The only thing that anyone should do in response to the action of these MPs today is to respectfully and politely ask them a simple question: Do they intend to put up candidates in Labour-Tory marginals, and split the Labour vote?
First, what they want is not "distraction and division". What they want is a social democratic Britain. It is pure People's-Front-Of-Judaea Splitterism to claim otherwise.
Second, it isn't "the Labour vote". Labour does not have a God-given right to the progressive vote.
I thought better of Thornberry. The arrogance in that statement has just perfectly encapsulated why a split is needed.0 -
A fan of Arthur C. Clarke then. Although "Dan Hodges" would a very strange name for God.viewcode said:
Get me an astronomer. I want to see if the stars are going out...SquareRoot said:Soooo Dan Hodges was right after all
https://urbigenous.net/library/nine_billion_names_of_god.html
0 -
1992 would probably have turned out quite a bit differently had Thatcher not already been ousted by her party.david_herdson said:
That's not true. 1992 and 2005 show that a poor government will beat a poor opposition. In a different way, so did 2017. It's very rare for a party to take power from opposition without having got their house in order. Feb 1974 is probably the last (and only post-war) instance.OllyT said:
If you look around Europe it's pretty clear that the only thing that holds back new political movements is our outmoded electoral system. It props up the 2 old parties who simply have to wait for Buggin's turn however clueless and incompetent they are.Danny565 said:
This is the same sort of argument that's been made at almost every election for the past 40 years about how the conditions were good for a third party to make a breakthrough (most recently for the Lib Dems in 2017).El_Capitano said:
But the market for "people who think the current Conservative government couldn't run a whelk stall, but will never vote for a party led by an unreconstructed Trotskyite" is potentially quite big, no?Danny565 said:
We already know that from their "statement" - Clegg-esque waffle about a "mixed economy", how they essentially want to keep the economy running the way it has for the past 40 years, but put on a sadface when they see homeless people.Slackbladder said:
Depends what they are for beyond Brexit.
To be fair, there is a market for that - there's quite a lot of wealthy liberals who want to (virtue-)signal that they're compassionate and therefore not Tory, but who also don't want to actually give up any more of their income to put their "compassion" into practice (nice guys though I'm sure they are, Southam Observer and Roger are good examples of that). But it's just not a very large market, nor is it concentrated in marginal seats.
The only party that's done it in recent times is the SNP, and they only because they actually got a set of policy positions that lots of people agreed with, rather than just benefitting from how crap people thought the established alternatives were. If there isn't a strong enough "pull factor" from the new party, people will just default back to the same old parties like usual; a "push factor" from the two main parties is not and has never been enough on its own for a new party to rise.0 -
Why? Luciana has been targeted by religious hatred driven by zealotry. Does that mean that she herself cannot be a political zealot?eek said:
The use of the word zealot when talking against a group that contains Luciana Berger who left thanks to antisemitism was probably not the best choice of phrase...RochdalePioneers said:As for my own views on the Umunna not Party, they are the same as with all of the Tory-enabling scab groups on the left like NHA and TUSC - just fuck off you self-satisfied zealot wazzocks.
0 -
Adds to list of dev agencies not to use for a simple but high volume website. I’d have assumed they had an MP’s intern do it, rather than professionals who should do research and testing.Stereotomy said:
I'm back to getting 503s, but during the brief period it was loading the page, all the links in the navigation bar were broken, as was the hilariously pointless "I agree" feature.Sandpit said:
QA is so last decade. Testing is what the customers get to do these days.DecrepitJohnL said:
It is behind Cloudflare but a CDN is not a magic talisman against bad design and implementation. Maybe they did not even test it because QA is not Agile!Sandpit said:
No-one thought to throw a hundred bucks at Cloudflare or AWS to make sure it stayed up on day one, when all the media were going to be looking at it. This stuff really isn’t difficult any more. Poor show.DavidL said:I think that their server has crashed.
These jokers are responsible: https://www.seraph.agency/
I think @DecrepitJohnL got it right, they’ll have inadvertently made the main page not static so it couldn’t be cached by the CDN, and the server VM doesn’t have enough uplink bandwidth and/or processor available. What we used to call a classic case of the Slashdot Effect.0
