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  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    edited February 2019
    MaxPB said:

    Distinct lack of Tories in that group. Solid work by the whips. Hopefully we can stop this stupid deselection game otherwise some MPs who have nothing to lose will join this breakaway.

    I don't think Tory MPs will join this breakaway group, but I think it is very likely that some Tory MPs will similarly choose to become independents, and they might work with the Labour refuseniks on specific issues. It could well be a large group of ex-Tory MPs if we're heading for a no-deal crash-out.
  • brendan16 said:

    Who gets put up first to defend the Corbyn position on BBC News - Owen Jones?! Seriously?

    The Tories have at least put up the Education Secretary.

    I assume Hinds has been instructed to say as little as possible about TIG. Just agree with their criticism of Corbyn...
  • EndillionEndillion Posts: 4,976

    Very centrist manifesto on the website (compared to their pretty left-wing (as you would expect) statements today):

    Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy.
    A strong economy means we can invest in our public services. We believe the collective provision of public services and the NHS can be delivered through government action, improving health and educational life chances, protecting the public, safeguarding the vulnerable, ensuring dignity at every stage of life and placing individuals at the heart of decision-making.
    The people of this country have the ability to create fairer, more prosperous communities for present and future generations. We believe that this creativity is best realised in a society which fosters individual freedom and supports all families.
    The barriers of poverty, prejudice and discrimination facing individuals should be removed and advancement occur on the basis of merit, with inequalities reduced through the extension of opportunity, giving individuals the skills and means to open new doors and fulfil their ambitions.
    Individuals are capable of taking responsibility if opportunities are offered to them, everybody can and should make a contribution to society and that contribution should be recognised. Paid work should be secure and pay should be fair.
    Our free media, the rule of law, and our open, tolerant and respectful democratic society should be cherished and renewed.
    We believe that our parliamentary democracy in which our elected representatives deliberate, decide and provide leadership, held accountable by their whole electorate is the best system of representing the views of the British people.
    In order to face the challenges and opportunities presented by globalisation, migration and technological advances, we believe the multilateral, international rules-based order must be strengthened and reformed. We believe in maintaining strong alliances with our closest European and international allies on trade, regulation, defence, security and counter-terrorism
    As part of the global community we have a responsibility to future generations to protect our environment, safeguard the planet, plan development sustainably and to act on the urgency of climate change.
    Power should be devolved to the most appropriate level, trusting and involving local communities. More powers and representation should be given to local government to act in the best interests of their communities.

    Well, there's nothing there I disagree with. Since I've voted Conservative all my life, I think that probably means there's not much there that most people could disagree with. Which means it says nothing at all.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,406
    Scott_P said:
    Surely the fact that Momentum's response is being given any air time confirms that splitting is the correct idea..
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.
    The 1980s showed how difficult it was for a breakaway party, even in alliance with the Liberals, and even with more than two dozen MPs including some really big names.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,914

    If they were really cunning they will have some more ready to leave in the coming days, where they can claim we were inspired by them, corbyn outriders disgust me in their reaction to this news..and a few tories who will claim may / brexit / etc.

    Yep, a large number today would be news for a few days, but it would much better to make it seem like a party gaining new followers. If they could get a few MPs a week the press would have a field day speculating about who is next, and it would keep them in the limelight.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Labour MP on Sky sounding ambivalent about staying.

    "A Jewish woman has been hounded out of the Labour party. Which side of that line are we on?"
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    AndyJS said:

    Luciana Berger is reminding me very slightly of Shirley Williams at this press conference.

    She hasn't got the political skills to even come close to Shirley - but she is still the best of this bunch.

    I find it hilarious that Chuka calls for honesty.
  • I like the branding..fresh and modern.
  • IanB2 said:

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.
    In effect they have - but have been sensible (or not had enough time) to avoid tying themselves to names, colours, manifestos etc - which makes sense since if a batch of Tories do decide to join them, it can be a genuine cross-party creation.
    No, I disagree. Not launching looks weak and unsure; as if they still want to return to Labour. They can't now: this break is irreversable (at least, not for many years until the bitterness is over). They should stake their ground and appeal to others to join them. At the moment, what would others be joining? Who knows.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    At least three of them have yet to update their Twitter profiles to remove references to being a Labour MP
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    edited February 2019
    Brom said:

    Well I didnt think it would happen this soon. A ballsy but rather selfish move that will really screw Labour's electoral chances. May must be considering an election if more follow and they stand as Independents.
    Would expect Wollaston to join them (she in no way is a Conservative) though for some reason I feel Soubry has some Tory genes underneath all the Pro European bluster.

    Heidi Allen is another Tory MP that does not seem to be a Tory in any shape or form.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,732
    Scott_P said:

    Labour MP on Sky sounding ambivalent about staying.

    "A Jewish woman has been hounded out of the Labour party. Which side of that line are we on?"

    That's Peter Kyle.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Return of Ed Balls?

    At the moment, as a grouping of MPs it will be interesting who outside joins them as fellow travellers. Balls joining would put intolerable media pressure on Cooper. And whilst being limited to current MPs, they can keep Blair at some distance. When a new party gets formed, issues like that rise to the surface.
  • And their shiny new web site now gives an http 503 error.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.
    In effect they have - but have been sensible (or not had enough time) to avoid tying themselves to names, colours, manifestos etc - which makes sense since if a batch of Tories do decide to join them, it can be a genuine cross-party creation.
    No, I disagree. Not launching looks weak and unsure; as if they still want to return to Labour. They can't now: this break is irreversable (at least, not for many years until the bitterness is over). They should stake their ground and appeal to others to join them. At the moment, what would others be joining? Who knows.
    They have staked their ground and have made that appeal. They just haven't started to erect the paraphernalia of a new party that could deter Tory defectors
  • I like the branding..fresh and modern.
    Which marginal seat is that an aerial shot of??

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    kinabalu said:

    As a Labour supporter I am worried and I think I am right to be worried. We saw what Macron was able to do in France. Formed a new Centrist Party - En Marche - and a couple of years later he sweeps to power. Dynamism, intellect, yes, but the main thing was that his timing was right. There is no reason, if he too has got the timing right, why Mike Gapes cannot do exactly the same here.

    https://twitter.com/alexwickham/status/1097445541980631041
  • I like the branding..fresh and modern.
    technically in breach of the GDPR as their privacy policy is #404, but yes, I agree
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    Dura_Ace said:

    Very centrist manifesto on the website (compared to their pretty left-wing (as you would expect) statements today):

    Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy....
    SNIP
    As part of the global community we have a responsibility to future generations to protect our environment, safeguard the planet, plan development sustainably and to act on the urgency of climate change.
    Power should be devolved to the most appropriate level, trusting and involving local communities. More powers and representation should be given to local government to act in the best interests of their communities.

    This is managerial balls. I prefer Corbo's Sturm und Drang.

    As Lenin said; without a revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement. There is no theory here.
    The market for revolutions is a thin one.
    Particularly after the Brexit debacle.
  • Essexit said:

    Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy.

    Just the one taxpayer?
    The whole site could have used some proof-reading. I'd give examples but it has crashed.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,603
    edited February 2019
    So, the company backing it ("Gemini A Ltd") was registered 2 days ago by Gavin Shuker.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,752
    GIN1138 said:

    So presumably this "Independence Group" is a bit like how the Gang Of Four launched the Council For Social Democracy in January 1981 which became the SDP in March 1981?

    I think they remained within the Labour party until the SDP was formed.
  • _Anazina_ said:

    Brom said:

    Well I didnt think it would happen this soon. A ballsy but rather selfish move that will really screw Labour's electoral chances. May must be considering an election if more follow and they stand as Independents.
    Would expect Wollaston to join them (she in no way is a Conservative) though for some reason I feel Soubry has some Tory genes underneath all the Pro European bluster.

    Heidi Allen is another Tory MP that does not seem to be a Tory in any shape or form.
    At least 3 of today's 7 all but left Labour a while ago.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,876
    I think that their server has crashed.
  • Return of Ed Balls?

    At the moment, as a grouping of MPs it will be interesting who outside joins them as fellow travellers. Balls joining would put intolerable media pressure on Cooper. And whilst being limited to current MPs, they can keep Blair at some distance. When a new party gets formed, issues like that rise to the surface.
    Blair said yesterday that people are going to be very surprised how many voters are looking for a new centrist home.

    Is his radar as good as it ever was? We will see in coming weeks.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.
    In effect they have - but have been sensible (or not had enough time) to avoid tying themselves to names, colours, manifestos etc - which makes sense since if a batch of Tories do decide to join them, it can be a genuine cross-party creation.
    No, I disagree. Not launching looks weak and unsure; as if they still want to return to Labour. They can't now: this break is irreversable (at least, not for many years until the bitterness is over). They should stake their ground and appeal to others to join them. At the moment, what would others be joining? Who knows.
    They have staked their ground and have made that appeal. They just haven't started to erect the paraphernalia of a new party that could deter Tory defectors
    I think David is (unusually) wrong as well.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    _Anazina_ said:

    Brom said:

    Well I didnt think it would happen this soon. A ballsy but rather selfish move that will really screw Labour's electoral chances. May must be considering an election if more follow and they stand as Independents.
    Would expect Wollaston to join them (she in no way is a Conservative) though for some reason I feel Soubry has some Tory genes underneath all the Pro European bluster.

    Heidi Allen is another Tory MP that does not seem to be a Tory in any shape or form.
    South Cambridgeshire District Council went Lib Dem at the last locals. She's the one MP who probably has a better chance of re-election if she does defect.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810
    kjohnw said:

    And the winners today are: the Tories


    Dunno about that.

    Really not sure at all that you are right there.
  • Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.

    I am not so sure. They are clearly looking to build something from the grassroots up. They are clear they do not have all the answers. Better to be honest about that than pretend otherwise.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,254
    edited February 2019

    Maybe your hope for a GE is somewhat diminished

    I need to process properly but initial thoughts -

    My GE scenario (as you know) is that TM calls it if she cannot get a Brexit through this parliament.

    Now this 'split' probably hurts Labour's chances in a GE. So does this make it more or less likely that TM would go for it in the event her Brexit is stymied?

    Perhaps more.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Scott_P said:
    From his lips to God's ears! The doomsday clock moves back a notch as Labour's distance from a majority increases by 10%.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,842
    We have to remember that the SDP attracted only 1 Tory MP defector IIRC - so I don't see the new 'group' attracting many more this time round.

    And 28 Labour MPs joined the SDP - so it remains to be seen whether those numbers are possible now.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited February 2019
    edit
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    OGH and TSE must still be sharing their tent up that mountain; no new thread.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    We have to remember that the SDP attracted only 1 Tory MP defector IIRC - so I don't see the new 'group' attracting many more this time round.

    And 28 Labour MPs joined the SDP - so it remains to be seen whether those numbers are possible now.

    I think there will be more Tory defectors than the SDP got due to Brexit.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Endillion said:

    Very centrist manifesto on the website (compared to their pretty left-wing (as you would expect) statements today):

    Britain works best as a diverse, mixed social market economy, in which well-regulated private enterprise can reward aspiration and drive economic progress and where government has the responsibility to ensure the sound stewardship of taxpayer’s money and a stable, fair and balanced economy.
    A strong economy means we can invest in our public services. We believe the collective provision of public services and the NHS can be delivered through government action, improving health and educational life chances, protecting the public, safeguarding the vulnerable, ensuring dignity at every stage of life and placing individuals at the heart of decision-making.
    The people of this country have the ability to create fairer, more prosperous communities for present and future generations. We believe that this creativity is best realised in a society which fosters individual freedom and supports all families.
    The barriers of poverty, prejudice and discrimination facing individuals should be removed and advancement occur on the basis of merit, with inequalities reduced through the extension of opportunity, giving individuals the skills and means to open new doors and fulfil their ambitions.
    Individuals are capable of taking responsibility if opportunities are offered to them, everybody can and should make a contribution to society and that contribution should be recognised. Paid work should be secure and pay should be fair.

    As part of the global community we have a responsibility to future generations to protect our environment, safeguard the planet, plan development sustainably and to act on the urgency of climate change.
    Power should be devolved to the most appropriate level, trusting and involving local communities. More powers and representation should be given to local government to act in the best interests of their communities.

    Well, there's nothing there I disagree with. Since I've voted Conservative all my life, I think that probably means there's not much there that most people could disagree with. Which means it says nothing at all.
    "Our aim is to pursue policies that are evidence-based, not led by ideology, taking a long-term perspective to the challenges of the 21st century in the national interest,"

    In the current climate, this is a pretty revolutionary and unique approach.
  • They really should have called themselves the centrist dad party as a placeholder.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    We have to remember that the SDP attracted only 1 Tory MP defector IIRC - so I don't see the new 'group' attracting many more this time round.

    And 28 Labour MPs joined the SDP - so it remains to be seen whether those numbers are possible now.

    Soubry Woolaston and the deselected but more importantly there's a home for the disaffected.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,318
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Umnuna much the best.....

    Unalloyed good news. It'll be bees around a honeypot....

    'Life's messy. Clean it up'

    Chuka said nothing memorable

    Berger is head and shoulders above the rest of these very small beasts

    She also has a link to Labour royalty - given her family connection to Manny Shinwell - who also resigned from Labour in protest at the 1980s extremism
    A Tory view. Berger is a one trick pony. Umunna is the magnet. Berger has very limited appeal beyond a tiny Jewish lobby.
    No, Roger, she appeals to all those women who have been slighted, overlooked, condescended to, patronised, mocked, sidelined, bullied and ignored by smug, self-satisfied and ignorant men who refuse to see what is happening in front of their eyes.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Return of Ed Balls?

    At the moment, as a grouping of MPs it will be interesting who outside joins them as fellow travellers. Balls joining would put intolerable media pressure on Cooper. And whilst being limited to current MPs, they can keep Blair at some distance. When a new party gets formed, issues like that rise to the surface.
    Blair said yesterday that people are going to be very surprised how many voters are looking for a new centrist home.

    Is his radar as good as it ever was? We will see in coming weeks.
    His "radar" also told him that Theresa May had a guaranteed landslide coming her way, and that Labour would shed masses of votes to the Lib Dems in 2017 unless they took a Remain position, so....
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,876
    This inevitably reminds me of the launch of the SDP when a much younger less cynical DavidL got very excited.

    The problem for me now is that this is clearly going to be an unequivocally pro-EU group. I suspect I may agree with them on many other matters but that's a deal breaker, at least until Brexit is bedded in.

    I wonder if they have been smart enough to hold back some recruits to keep the story going?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    So in other words they are slightly rerunning the last Labour leadership election with a pretty centrist/left of centre pitch (a la Cooper et al back then) and hoping that whereas people then were happy to back Corbyn for lolz at that time, they might now realise what a shocking error that was.
  • GIN1138 said:

    We have to remember that the SDP attracted only 1 Tory MP defector IIRC - so I don't see the new 'group' attracting many more this time round.

    And 28 Labour MPs joined the SDP - so it remains to be seen whether those numbers are possible now.

    I think there will be more Tory defectors than the SDP got due to Brexit.
    We know there are two or three Con MPs who are effectively sitting as Independents to begin with, plus the same again who are most of the way there. Whether they jump or not is less important than it might seem.
  • IanB2 said:

    OGH and TSE must still be sharing their tent up that mountain; no new thread.

    Brokeback Mountain 2??
  • Their server has crashed because a lot of people are trying to sign up

    I don't think viewing this through the paradigm of the SDP is wise. This has been thought through- with lessons learned from Macron etc. Its only the beginning of something which may accelerate if they get a positive response.

    They will have coordinated plans for the Libdems and the Tory left- in my view only one of the Tory or labour parties survive this- the question will be which one.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    The group's twitter page.

    https://twitter.com/TheIndGroup
  • glw said:

    If they were really cunning they will have some more ready to leave in the coming days, where they can claim we were inspired by them, corbyn outriders disgust me in their reaction to this news..and a few tories who will claim may / brexit / etc.

    Yep, a large number today would be news for a few days, but it would much better to make it seem like a party gaining new followers. If they could get a few MPs a week the press would have a field day speculating about who is next, and it would keep them in the limelight.
    We saw that with the MP defections to UKIP, but it then came to be seen as shifty, as Reckless was thought to have been dishonest in the timing of his defection.

    Any MP who is late to defect has to answer why later was better than earlier. Orchestrating a dripfeed would risk looking contrived.
  • The endorsement they've been waiting for.

    https://twitter.com/KTHopkins/status/1097440986257649664

    Has Tommy Robinson pronounced?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    Return of Ed Balls?

    At the moment, as a grouping of MPs it will be interesting who outside joins them as fellow travellers. Balls joining would put intolerable media pressure on Cooper. And whilst being limited to current MPs, they can keep Blair at some distance. When a new party gets formed, issues like that rise to the surface.
    Blair said yesterday that people are going to be very surprised how many voters are looking for a new centrist home.

    Is his radar as good as it ever was? We will see in coming weeks.
    Their twitter following is rising by about 1,000 every five or six minutes. Which means nothing, of course.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    We have to remember that the SDP attracted only 1 Tory MP defector IIRC - so I don't see the new 'group' attracting many more this time round.

    And 28 Labour MPs joined the SDP - so it remains to be seen whether those numbers are possible now.

    The circumstances of that one Tory defector were rather specific.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,914
    JonathanD said:

    "Our aim is to pursue policies that are evidence-based, not led by ideology, taking a long-term perspective to the challenges of the 21st century in the national interest,"

    In the current climate, this is a pretty revolutionary and unique approach.

    Sounds good, but I suspect that the public won't be all that keen to hear many of those truths.
  • the independents against an independent uk party?
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    _Anazina_ said:

    Brom said:

    Well I didnt think it would happen this soon. A ballsy but rather selfish move that will really screw Labour's electoral chances. May must be considering an election if more follow and they stand as Independents.
    Would expect Wollaston to join them (she in no way is a Conservative) though for some reason I feel Soubry has some Tory genes underneath all the Pro European bluster.

    Heidi Allen is another Tory MP that does not seem to be a Tory in any shape or form.
    South Cambridgeshire District Council went Lib Dem at the last locals. She's the one MP who probably has a better chance of re-election if she does defect.
    Good point. She should go for it.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited February 2019
    Prediction: 10% in the immediate polls, with their support being drawn roughly evenly from the Lib Dems and Labour (maybe 1-2% off the Tories at a real push).

    3% in an actual election, with no constituencies and no respectable showings outside of a few London seats. Chuka could even get up to 30% in his seat if he's lucky.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TOPPING said:

    So in other words they are slightly rerunning the last Labour leadership election with a pretty centrist/left of centre pitch (a la Cooper et al back then) and hoping that whereas people then were happy to back Corbyn for lolz at that time, they might now realise what a shocking error that was.

    As said upthread, the last Labour leadership election pitch was we agree with Jezza.

    This is not that
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    OGH and TSE must still be sharing their tent up that mountain; no new thread.

    Brokeback Mountain 2??
    Question of the day: What persuaded Chuka to hold off until OGH was out of circulation>?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,298
    Tories at 1.86 for most seats next time might be value since presumably this is going to split the Labour vote.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    I presume these new MPs will be wanting to have their stance affirmed by the electorate at the earliest opportunity.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    eek said:
    Remarkable how like the Brexit hardliners that sounds.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316
    mwadams said:

    So, the company backing it ("Gemini A Ltd") was registered 2 days ago by Gavin Shuker.

    Wonder why it’s registered in Altrincham? I guess it might just be his accountants’ address.
  • Ann Coffey, Chris Leslie, Chuka Umunna and Luciana Berger were all "Hostile" on Corbyn's famous 'Core Group Plus' list.

    Angela Smith was Core Group Negative

    Gavin Shuker and Mike Gaps were "Neutral but not Hostile"
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Danny565 said:

    Prediction: 10% in the immediate polls, with their support being drawn roughly evenly from the Lib Dems and Labour (maybe 1-2% off the Tories at a real push).

    3% in an actual election, with no constituencies and no respectable showings outside of a few London seats.

    They would help themselves if they and the LibDems said they would work toward an electoral deal - enabling pollsters to combine their ratings
  • Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.

    I am not so sure. They are clearly looking to build something from the grassroots up. They are clear they do not have all the answers. Better to be honest about that than pretend otherwise.

    Do you really believe Umunna when he says that about building from the grassroots and not having the answers? If you want voters to agree with you, you have to make them think it was their idea, a smooth talking politico like Chuka knows that better than most. They are just using a tried and tested strategy of throwing out vague sound bites whilst saying they’ll listen.
  • _Anazina__Anazina_ Posts: 1,810

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.

    I am not so sure. They are clearly looking to build something from the grassroots up. They are clear they do not have all the answers. Better to be honest about that than pretend otherwise.


    Spot on.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Nigelb said:

    eek said:
    Remarkable how like the Brexit hardliners that sounds.
    just insert white and blue
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Cyclefree said:



    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Umnuna much the best.....

    Unalloyed good news. It'll be bees around a honeypot....

    'Life's messy. Clean it up'

    Chuka said nothing memorable

    Berger is head and shoulders above the rest of these very small beasts

    She also has a link to Labour royalty - given her family connection to Manny Shinwell - who also resigned from Labour in protest at the 1980s extremism
    A Tory view. Berger is a one trick pony. Umunna is the magnet. Berger has very limited appeal beyond a tiny Jewish lobby.
    No, Roger, she appeals to all those women who have been slighted, overlooked, condescended to, patronised, mocked, sidelined, bullied and ignored by smug, self-satisfied and ignorant men who refuse to see what is happening in front of their eyes.
    I'm not sure that that's a widespread view. I wasn't talking about her keeping her Liverpool seat but whether she could attract others to the EU/centrist cause and I don't think 99% of the population have even heard of her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    edited February 2019
    rkrkrk said:

    Tories at 1.86 for most seats next time might be value since presumably this is going to split the Labour vote.

    And quite possibly the Tory one, too.
    Which is presumably why they're avoiding the SDP mistake of casting themselves as a replacement for Labour.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    _Anazina_ said:

    Interesting there's no new party. What'll they do come election time?

    It's an unsustainable position. They cannot now return to Labour: the bridges have been burned by this step. They have to either join another party or launch their own. They should have done it today. They've screwed up their best chance.

    I am not so sure. They are clearly looking to build something from the grassroots up. They are clear they do not have all the answers. Better to be honest about that than pretend otherwise.


    Spot on.
    I trust SO has already registered his support?
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    This is almost certainly what happens. This is going to hurt Labour very badly.

    Tories now odds on for the next GE sadly.
  • IanB2 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Prediction: 10% in the immediate polls, with their support being drawn roughly evenly from the Lib Dems and Labour (maybe 1-2% off the Tories at a real push).

    3% in an actual election, with no constituencies and no respectable showings outside of a few London seats.

    They would help themselves if they and the LibDems said they would work toward an electoral deal - enabling pollsters to combine their ratings
    Can't believe there hasn't been a serious discussion behind the scenes on that.
  • murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    This is almost certainly what happens. This is going to hurt Labour very badly.

    Tories now odds on for the next GE sadly.
    a sort of alliance?
  • It’s going to be a long hard slog, but having something to believe in again feels like it might be magnificent.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:
    This presumably isn't correct. If their plan is to target marginals, then their plan is to ensure that the Tories win the next election.

    Their best hope of retaining their seats is surely to stand where they are already known/where Brexit is the most salient issue and Labour are popular.
    No. Tories need to win marginals too.
    If its Chukka and 4/5 Labour MPs standing on an anti-Brexit platform... they are going to be taking Labour voters predominantly, not Tory votes. So they will make it much more likely that the Tories win those marginals.

    If on the other hand, they stood against Kate Hoey in Vauxhall, well frankly they'd get plenty of Labour support and probably win the seat.
    I doubt that they would poll many votes beyond those who would otherwise have voted Libdem.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    Cyclefree said:



    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Umnuna much the best.....

    Unalloyed good news. It'll be bees around a honeypot....

    'Life's messy. Clean it up'

    Chuka said nothing memorable

    Berger is head and shoulders above the rest of these very small beasts

    She also has a link to Labour royalty - given her family connection to Manny Shinwell - who also resigned from Labour in protest at the 1980s extremism
    A Tory view. Berger is a one trick pony. Umunna is the magnet. Berger has very limited appeal beyond a tiny Jewish lobby.
    No, Roger, she appeals to all those women who have been slighted, overlooked, condescended to, patronised, mocked, sidelined, bullied and ignored by smug, self-satisfied and ignorant men who refuse to see what is happening in front of their eyes.
    Like.
  • Awb683Awb683 Posts: 80
    There is a new party in town - The Brexit Party!!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,626

    Scott_P said:

    Labour MP on Sky sounding ambivalent about staying.

    "A Jewish woman has been hounded out of the Labour party. Which side of that line are we on?"

    That's Peter Kyle.
    Just looked at his details for his Hove seat. His majority in 2015 - 1,236. In 2017 - 18,757. There must be a monster Remain effect in that seat?
  • It’s going to be a long hard slog, but having something to believe in again feels like it might be magnificent.

    Damn straight...
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    IanB2 said:

    Danny565 said:

    Prediction: 10% in the immediate polls, with their support being drawn roughly evenly from the Lib Dems and Labour (maybe 1-2% off the Tories at a real push).

    3% in an actual election, with no constituencies and no respectable showings outside of a few London seats.

    They would help themselves if they and the LibDems said they would work toward an electoral deal - enabling pollsters to combine their ratings
    Nah, that knackers their hopes of winning significant numbers of Labour voters even more - it means they'll get contaminated with the Lib Dems' albatross of "they'll just let the Tories in".
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,414
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    I thought that. However, there was an attack on the LDs too in there. "Lost the trust of the electorate".
    Which seemed curious.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    Scott_P said:

    TOPPING said:

    So in other words they are slightly rerunning the last Labour leadership election with a pretty centrist/left of centre pitch (a la Cooper et al back then) and hoping that whereas people then were happy to back Corbyn for lolz at that time, they might now realise what a shocking error that was.

    As said upthread, the last Labour leadership election pitch was we agree with Jezza.

    This is not that
    No indeed - as I said, they have learned from that and how.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914

    They really should have called themselves the centrist dad party as a placeholder.

    That's catchy
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    Gapes is going to be their problem. Most of the others have a modern outlook and the ability to reinvent themselves for the modern age; Gapes always will be an old labour dinosaur.
  • murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    This is almost certainly what happens. This is going to hurt Labour very badly.

    Tories now odds on for the next GE sadly.
    a sort of alliance?
    The more thinking members of Jezza's inner cabinet have been terrified this would happen for months Stephen Bush has written in Newstatesman recently.

    Yet, nobody seemed prepared to try and stop it by doing anything about the causes.

    Jezza's team have only themselves to blame for this.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 711
    rkrkrk said:

    Tories at 1.86 for most seats next time might be value since presumably this is going to split the Labour vote.

    Don't you think that those who share their criticism of Corbyn and anti Semitism in Labour have already removed their support in current polling from Labour. Surely this is the reason why Conservatives are polling so high. So many have said on here that Labour should be well ahead in the polls. Surely this new movement is appealing to those who have already not supporting Corbyn and Labour in the polls.


    It could actually hit Tory share in the polls as much if not more than Labour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,279
    Roger said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    Umnuna much the best.....

    Unalloyed good news. It'll be bees around a honeypot....

    'Life's messy. Clean it up'

    Chuka said nothing memorable

    Berger is head and shoulders above the rest of these very small beasts

    She also has a link to Labour royalty - given her family connection to Manny Shinwell - who also resigned from Labour in protest at the 1980s extremism
    A Tory view. Berger is a one trick pony. Umunna is the magnet. Berger has very limited appeal beyond a tiny Jewish lobby.
    No, Roger, she appeals to all those women who have been slighted, overlooked, condescended to, patronised, mocked, sidelined, bullied and ignored by smug, self-satisfied and ignorant men who refuse to see what is happening in front of their eyes.
    I'm not sure that that's a widespread view. I wasn't talking about her keeping her Liverpool seat but whether she could attract others to the EU/centrist cause and I don't think 99% of the population have even heard of her.
    ...all those women who have been slighted, overlooked, condescended to, patronised, mocked, sidelined, bullied and ignored by smug, self-satisfied and ignorant men....

    I'm pretty sure that's not the limited view you imagine it might be.
  • IanB2 said:

    Gapes is going to be their problem. Most of the others have a modern outlook and the ability to reinvent themselves for the modern age; Gapes always will be an old labour dinosaur.

    The Prescott role then?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871
    dixiedean said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    I thought that. However, there was an attack on the LDs too in there. "Lost the trust of the electorate".
    Which seemed curious.
    But clearly true, going on their poll ratings. Although I thought that comment was prefaced by "major parties"?
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited February 2019
    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    This is almost certainly what happens. This is going to hurt Labour very badly.

    Tories now odds on for the next GE sadly.
    A premature view.

    We shouldn't discount the effect that a new Farage party will have on the Tory vote.

    The next election could see many seats won with remarkably low vote shares with FPTP . Now there is a bet in there somewhere.
  • BigIanBigIan Posts: 198
    murali_s said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe they could come to some sort of understanding with the LDs so they don't both contest the same seats at the next election. Has anyone thought of that before?

    This is almost certainly what happens. This is going to hurt Labour very badly.

    Tories now odds on for the next GE sadly.
    Snap election?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,871

    IanB2 said:

    Gapes is going to be their problem. Most of the others have a modern outlook and the ability to reinvent themselves for the modern age; Gapes always will be an old labour dinosaur.

    The Prescott role then?
    If they become cast as Labour in exile, for sure. But I reckon Chuka and the others have bigger hopes.
  • It’s going to be a long hard slog, but having something to believe in again feels like it might be magnificent.

    That's how a lot of people to your left felt when Corbyn was elected Labour leader. Look how well that turned out for them.

    Be careful of what happens when your dreams come true.
This discussion has been closed.