This presumably isn't correct. If their plan is to target marginals, then their plan is to ensure that the Tories win the next election.
Their best hope of retaining their seats is surely to stand where they are already known/where Brexit is the most salient issue and Labour are popular.
No. Tories need to win marginals too.
If its Chukka and 4/5 Labour MPs standing on an anti-Brexit platform... they are going to be taking Labour voters predominantly, not Tory votes. So they will make it much more likely that the Tories win those marginals.
If on the other hand, they stood against Kate Hoey in Vauxhall, well frankly they'd get plenty of Labour support and probably win the seat.
There are more Tory Remainers than LAB leavers therefore that might cancel this out.
This presumably isn't correct. If their plan is to target marginals, then their plan is to ensure that the Tories win the next election.
Their best hope of winning seats is surely to stand where they are already known/where Brexit is the most salient issue and Labour are popular.
It makes sense if they are getting advice from Washington - the people there will think the people in the UK know what they are talking about, the MPs will think the people in Washington are experts and that joint misunderstanding will result in an insane plan that won't work...
Lol - maybe you're right. You'd like to think that this lot have a bit more sense than that, but our politicians do get bedazzled by Washington DC sometimes and revert back to being 'West Wing' fanboys...
So what's the name for this new grouping I wonder?
Democrats? Progressives? Something arty-farty?
If I was them I'd keep "Labour" in there somewhere.
Not sure that is electorally permitted.
The Liberals are presumably allowed to stand against the Liberal Democrats, why not Democratic Labour against Labour?
I’m likely to be a supporter of this new party (if thats what it is) but any name with ‘democrat’ in it will just invite mockery, especially considering Brexit is going to be top of the list.
And using the word Labour won't be allowed as the important naming rule is don't cause confusion...
Mr. Chris, that's true. However, few are so virulent when it comes to wanting to curb free speech, or receive such a hands-off approach for reasons of 'cultural sensitivities', or form an ISIS type state.
If Muslims held views akin to hardline Christians (ie homosexuality is not merely ethically wrong but should be criminalised) then I think most people would just think they were old-fashioned and wrong. When people hold up banners calling for Death to the West in response to a cartoon, most people think that's a bit alarming.
Edited extra bit: to clarify: from memory, a significant (often majority) in the Trevor Phillips' programme didn't hold what we might call Sharia views, so I don't want to paint this as a single perspective from all British Muslims, just a sizeable view within that population.
Are you really saying that it's reasonable to be prejudiced against Muslims in general because the actions of ISIS, or people holding up banners saying Death to the West?
And I'd speculate it actually has more chance of being the straw that starts the collapse of Brexit than it does in collapsing the two-party system longer term.
Jewish people don't kill innocent civilians walking around the UK. Even the IRA usually did it by mistake. IS fanatics do it deliberately.
I remember a Muslim colleague of mine who was devout, but very strongly anti-IS. But he was vaguely sympathetic to the Taliban. At least they made the camels run on time etc.
He was also surprised that Christians didn't respond to criticism as much. I don't think he was really that surprised, he'd lived most of his life here and accepted the customs, but his religion was sacrosanct. That's why he hated IS.
More than any splitters watch for how many mps and unions pledge their loyalty to the true labour to demonstrate fealty.
That is a very good point. It does seem bizarre that labour feel so threatened they have to come out with a personal pledge by each of their mps to the leadership
The one thing is certain, today is going to be very interesting
Or shrugdown. Assuming there are a few defectors, if I were in the leadership, I'd simply wish them a pleasant time in their chosen new environment, and say we were now returning to the real issues. The defectors' problem will be that it's essentially a split in the Labour dissidents, which will annoy dissidents who don't think it's the right moment.
It's jolly good news for the pro-deselection wing of Momentum, though. People like me who've been urging quietly reselecting dissidents and accepting plurality of views are going look pretty limp-wristed. Mainstream members will swing into the camp of requiring a commitment of loyalty before reselection - not on every issue, but in general terms as per RLB's statement.
Or shrugdown. Assuming there are a few defectors, if I were in the leadership, I'd simply wish them a pleasant time in their chosen new environment, and say we were now returning to the real issues. The defectors' problem will be that it's essentially a split in the Labour dissidents, which will annoy dissidents who don't think it's the right moment.
It's jolly good news for the pro-deselection wing of Momentum, though. People like me who've been urging quietly reselecting dissidents and accepting plurality of views are going look pretty limp-wristed. Mainstream members will swing into the camp of requiring a commitment of loyalty before reselection - not on every issue, but in general terms as per RLB's statement.
And that, of course, will just drive more people to the new party.
Jewish people don't kill innocent civilians walking around the UK. Even the IRA usually did it by mistake. IS fanatics do it deliberately.
So what you object to is my saying wholesale prejudice against Muslims is wrong in the same way that wholesale prejudice against Jewish and Irish people is wrong. Because you think that Muslim terrorists are worse than Jewish or Irish terrorists?
On topic, if there is a 'schism' and Leslie and Ummuna walk, can we call them the Wee Frees?
If you're using that analogy, there will be further fission with the wee Wee Frees and continuation Wee Frees splitting off (there may even be others).
The Wee Frees were the ones who refused to join the merged Presbyterian, ending the great Disruption, so not really splitters.
"Are you really saying that it's reasonable to be prejudiced against Muslims in general because the actions of ISIS, or people holding up banners saying Death to the West?"
You're doing it again? No, I'm saying it's not unreasonable to hold prejudiced views against someone who wants to kill you and yours for merely existing. These views aren't common in the Muslim population, but there is a proportion who hold them even if most would never act on them. Unfortunately, some do.
On topic, if there is a 'schism' and Leslie and Ummuna walk, can we call them the Wee Frees?
If you're using that analogy, there will be further fission with the wee Wee Frees and continuation Wee Frees splitting off (there may even be others).
That's not a bad analogy. And of course the Wee Frees in the end were the largest group.
But actually I was thinking more of the length of time they've been taking the piss.
This presumably isn't correct. If their plan is to target marginals, then their plan is to ensure that the Tories win the next election.
Their best hope of retaining their seats is surely to stand where they are already known/where Brexit is the most salient issue and Labour are popular.
No. Tories need to win marginals too.
If its Chukka and 4/5 Labour MPs standing on an anti-Brexit platform... they are going to be taking Labour voters predominantly, not Tory votes. So they will make it much more likely that the Tories win those marginals.
If on the other hand, they stood against Kate Hoey in Vauxhall, well frankly they'd get plenty of Labour support and probably win the seat.
On election night we were told Hoey would suffer a substanial swing against her. In fact her majority went up from 12,708 to 20,250. Most people in Vauxhall vote for the Labour candidate, whoever it is.
Those that stay will actually be strengthened because it will be harder to accuse them of disloyalty.
Oh come on. It was impossible to claim with a straight face that Labour's manifesto was fully costed, that Jeremy Corbyn isn't a supporter of terrorism or that Jenny Formby was appointed GenSec on merit. But that didn't stop them.
Corbynistas deal in convenient fantasies, not facts. Unless you are actively licking the Dear Leader's arse, they will find some reason to accuse you of disloyalty.
Labour's manifesto was a damn sight more costed than the Conservatives', where, as John McDonnell said, the only numbers were the page numbers. It did not even include costs for the Conservatives' flagship policy, Brexit. Your main beef, iirc, was that Labour had unrealistically accounted for your own fantasy version of its proposed National Care Service.
Huh? I never even mentioned Labour's plans for social care! My main beef was its numbers on education, which were clearly a pack of lies that would if implemented have bankrupted first the private and then the state education system (although in fairness reforms to the TPS from next year that Corbyn has nothing to do with are likely to have much the same effect).
It didn't help the numbers on borrowing, water nationalisation and pensions were clearly plucked out of thin air (or smoke-filled air, the smoke being cannabis smoke) but that was the main concern.
Moreover, since I have never denied that the Tory manifesto was uncosted too and have repeatedly criticised them for it, I'm not sure why you're getting at me over that. It doesn't alter the fact that Labour's manifesto was uncosted and every time that bunch of third rate smug posh drunken Nazis (and that's not by any means the worst I could say of one of them, but out of respect for OGH I never have) claimed it was they were lying.
Take the blinkers off, please. You are clearly intelligent and an interesting poster but defending Labour's manifesto is like saying Trump's Wall plan had its merits and was well thought through.
Yes, I did wonder if the TPS changes might lose the Conservatives the next election if they are not careful. If public schools are forced to jack up their fees by 25 per cent or even a fraction of that, it might be the last straw for the JAMs.
For my bank balance could Chukka leave today and everyone else follow tomorrow. The dead heat rules will otherwise knock the weekend away to a round at Spoons..
Or shrugdown. Assuming there are a few defectors, if I were in the leadership, I'd simply wish them a pleasant time in their chosen new environment, and say we were now returning to the real issues. The defectors' problem will be that it's essentially a split in the Labour dissidents, which will annoy dissidents who don't think it's the right moment.
It's jolly good news for the pro-deselection wing of Momentum, though. People like me who've been urging quietly reselecting dissidents and accepting plurality of views are going look pretty limp-wristed. Mainstream members will swing into the camp of requiring a commitment of loyalty before reselection - not on every issue, but in general terms as per RLB's statement.
Did I just read an ex-Labour MP using the phrase "limp-wristed"?!
Clearly, they have chosen February 18th as a propitious day in history:
1861 – In Montgomery, Alabama, Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as the provisional President of the Confederate States of America.
1943 – World War II: Joseph Goebbels delivers his Sportpalast speech, whilst Nazis arrest the members of the White Rose movement.
1954 – The first Church of Scientology is established in Los Angeles.
Also.....
In 1930, Elm Farm Ollie becomes the first cow to fly in a fixed-wing aircraft and also the first cow to be milked in an aircraft. Now c'mon - that's worth celebrating with a party!
If I were choosing the name, I'd probably go for "Citizens".
Urgh, thats such a un-British term....
It needs to be a more British term. That's a problem with Britain, not the word.
Hoping for Umunna to tell voters ‘Ain’t Nobody Loves You Better’, ‘I Feel For You’ & that he sees ‘Eye to Eye’ with them, while the other three rap ‘Chuka Can’
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
I think Dan's wrong. The Corbynista's will double down, if chuka et al quit due to not getting a referendum, theres no way they'll give one now. they'll all be persona non grata.
Clearly, they have chosen February 18th as a propitious day in history:
1861 – In Montgomery, Alabama, Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as the provisional President of the Confederate States of America.
1943 – World War II: Joseph Goebbels delivers his Sportpalast speech, whilst Nazis arrest the members of the White Rose movement.
1954 – The first Church of Scientology is established in Los Angeles.
Also.....
In 1930, Elm Farm Ollie becomes the first cow to fly in a fixed-wing aircraft and also the first cow to be milked in an aircraft. Now c'mon - that's worth celebrating with a party!
It was however also the day that Pluto was discovered.
That's an interesting letter. For a start, and to rip a quote completely out of context, the opening sentence was bang on:
We believe that the lives of millions of Venezuelans have been transformed by the progressive social and democratic policies of Hugo Chávez's government.
3 million refugees agree completely.
And it's also interesting to see that while Lembit Opik and Jon Cruddas signed it, Corbyn did not. Does it date from the days before he learned which way up to hold a pen?
I think Dan's wrong. The Corbynista's will double down, if chuka et al quit due to not getting a referendum, theres no way they'll give one now. they'll all be persona non grata.
Yes, there is nothing the Labour movement will enjoy more than turning against the quitters
Clearly, they have chosen February 18th as a propitious day in history:
1861 – In Montgomery, Alabama, Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as the provisional President of the Confederate States of America.
1943 – World War II: Joseph Goebbels delivers his Sportpalast speech, whilst Nazis arrest the members of the White Rose movement.
1954 – The first Church of Scientology is established in Los Angeles.
Also.....
In 1930, Elm Farm Ollie becomes the first cow to fly in a fixed-wing aircraft and also the first cow to be milked in an aircraft. Now c'mon - that's worth celebrating with a party!
There is a non trivial risk that in milking the publicity for three empty suits they will make udder fools of themselves.
I think Dan's wrong. The Corbynista's will double down, if chuka et al quit due to not getting a referendum, theres no way they'll give one now. they'll all be persona non grata.
Yes, there is nothing the Labour movement will enjoy more than turning against the quitters
This seems completely obvious to me - surely Leavers and Tories will be rejoicing?
"Are you really saying that it's reasonable to be prejudiced against Muslims in general because the actions of ISIS, or people holding up banners saying Death to the West?"
You're doing it again? No, I'm saying it's not unreasonable to hold prejudiced views against someone who wants to kill you and yours for merely existing. These views aren't common in the Muslim population, but there is a proportion who hold them even if most would never act on them. Unfortunately, some do.
Obviously, "prejudice" doesn't describe the view one holds about someone who is trying to kill them. It means pre-judging people on some other basis - in this case on the basis of their religion.
To say it's reasonable to be "prejudiced" against people because they're terrorists is nonsense on stilts.
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
Holding a community responsible for the acts of individuals is as perverse as holding a community responsible for the acts of a foreign government. I am sorry you did not understand what I was saying.
5 or so MPs is not really a split, more an inconvenience for Labour.
What will be interesting is whether they form a new SDP style party or become independents
The more telling thing is who other the coming days and months flock to them, Ex-MPs, Ex PMs? etc...
edit; and also if they start making a dent in opinion polls.
It needs 20+ MPs to really make a dent in the polls
It depends if it is just Labour under a different name or something wider.
That requires some Tory defectors too and/or a deal with the Liberals as was the case with the SDP/Liberal Alliance
What would be sensible given FPTP is some sort of grown up deal along the lines advocated by the Greens - ideally including the Greens - with each of them accepting they simply aren't going to stand in every seat. The LibDem vote and organisation outside its targets has been driven down to such a level that it wont be a problem for them, and hopefully the new party wont have any trouble giving the LibDems and Greens a free run in their small numbers of target seats.
Assuming the new party comes out for PR - as surely they must - its the only way to avoid handing the next decade to the Tories.
Depends also if any Tories defect to Farage's new Brexit Party
Mr. Chris, I responded to the comment about the view that Islam is incompatible with the British way of life.
Given a violent reaction to cartoons, terrorism committed in the name of Islam, and the so-called Islamic State, we can't be surprised if many people hold that view.
There is a conflict going on (as there always is in most religions) as to what it means to be Muslim. Unfortunately, there's a noisy and persuasive brand of lunatic fanaticism (ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc) which has successfully committed a number of atrocities. Just pretending they aren't Muslim is about as convincing as a Christian claiming the Crusades were nothing to do with Christianity.
Most Muslims are good people. They drink less and pray more than the average Briton, and that's pretty much the difference. Pretending there isn't a hardline fringe of lunatics or a sizeable minority who oppose gay rights, rights which most Britons would consider to be a good thing, is to shut your eyes for fear of seeing reality.
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
So it's OK to be prejudiced against British Muslims in general because of the actions of Muslim terrorists, provided the terrorists are British?
A key question is whether they will be followed by Labour councillors, taking the story into local news and council chambers across the country, or whether it'll be contained at least initially within Westminster.
Mr. Chris, I responded to the comment about the view that Islam is incompatible with the British way of life.
Given a violent reaction to cartoons, terrorism committed in the name of Islam, and the so-called Islamic State, we can't be surprised if many people hold that view.
There is a conflict going on (as there always is in most religions) as to what it means to be Muslim. Unfortunately, there's a noisy and persuasive brand of lunatic fanaticism (ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc) which has successfully committed a number of atrocities. Just pretending they aren't Muslim is about as convincing as a Christian claiming the Crusades were nothing to do with Christianity.
Most Muslims are good people. They drink less and pray more than the average Briton, and that's pretty much the difference. Pretending there isn't a hardline fringe of lunatics or a sizeable minority who oppose gay rights, rights which most Britons would consider to be a good thing, is to shut your eyes for fear of seeing reality.
Setting aside all the straw-man nonsense in your comment, apparently what you can't bring yourself to say is that it's wrong to be prejudiced against Muslims in general.
Clearly, they have chosen February 18th as a propitious day in history:
1861 – In Montgomery, Alabama, Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as the provisional President of the Confederate States of America.
1943 – World War II: Joseph Goebbels delivers his Sportpalast speech, whilst Nazis arrest the members of the White Rose movement.
1954 – The first Church of Scientology is established in Los Angeles.
Also.....
In 1930, Elm Farm Ollie becomes the first cow to fly in a fixed-wing aircraft and also the first cow to be milked in an aircraft. Now c'mon - that's worth celebrating with a party!
There is a non trivial risk that in milking the publicity for three empty suits they will make udder fools of themselves.
Looking at the alleged impending split(s), I don't understand the timing in pure political terms. If say 4-5 Labour MPs and 2-3 Tory MPs say they're forming a new grouping or a new party, it'll be big news for a day or two, but it'll then get completely blotted out by the Return of Brexit next week. In two weeks' time most people would struggle to remember who it was that resigned.
By contrast, if they do it after the Brexit votes, they can claim it's partly a reaction to whatever they don't like about them, and it becomes part of the main story.
I'm not one of those who is virulent about party-changers - MPs evolve just like everyone else, as do their parties, and in a democracy we're all entitled to. It's the other side of the coin that MPs shouldn't assume they have a God-given right to represent their ;parties forever. But this just seems to me rather odd, and notably devoid of confirmed press leaks.
I'm all for giving them a fair crack of the whip, but I tend to agree with much of this.
Apart from anything else, being (rightly or wrongly) branded as a "Stop Brexit" party is going to require a sharp handbrake turn on March 30th if we leave.
I hate to say it, but I suspect 'People's Party' will be the chosen one...
Which People?
Not the People who voted in 2016.
That’s because they’ve changed their mind.
No sign of that. As far as I know polling now on a referendum question is the same as that of Populous the day before the referendum. And there's been no surge in voting for explicitly anti Leave parties like the Lib Dems.
I hate to say it, but I suspect 'People's Party' will be the chosen one...
thats so meaningless... it's not like it's going to be a party for cats is it now...
Although @malcolmg will hopefully be along shortly to tell us it's full of turnips
Anyway, I am going to channel my inner Dr @Sunil_Prasannan and go train riding. Enjoy today. Try not to meltdown too much when the Wee Frees again fail to walk away...
I hate to say it, but I suspect 'People's Party' will be the chosen one...
Which People?
Not the People who voted in 2016.
That’s because they’ve changed their mind.
No sign of that. As far as I know polling now on a referendum question is the same as that of Populous the day before the referendum. And there's been no surge in voting for explicitly anti Leave parties like the Lib Dems.
When was the last poll to show Leave in the lead? And how many polls in June 2016 had Leave in the lead?
Yep, as I said downthread, they will have researched the best places to contest.
So, the Clever Collective on here - where are those seats?
I suspect its rather the same demographic that pulled toward the SDP - remainy seats in Inner London and University Cities and the like. The smarter ends of the big cities. Plus those parts of the Home Counties within London commuter range
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
So it's OK to be prejudiced against British Muslims in general because of the actions of Muslim terrorists, provided the terrorists are British?
The mind boggles.
I wouldn’t say it’s okay, but I think the irrationality is more understandable. It doesn’t help that most of the people who are radicalised come from a Muslim background.
Yep, as I said downthread, they will have researched the best places to contest.
So, the Clever Collective on here - where are those seats?
I suspect its rather the same demographic that pulled toward the SDP - remainy seats in Inner London and University Cities and the like. Plus those parts of the Home Counties within London commuter range
So basically, their fight isn't with Labour. It's with the LibDems? Huh???
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
Holding a community responsible for the acts of individuals is as perverse as holding a community responsible for the acts of a foreign government. I am sorry you did not understand what I was saying.
Good to hear. The men who murdered Jo Cox & drove into people outside the Finsbury Park Mosque are individuals responsible only to themselves, and shame on anyone who tries to associate them with any larger group.
Yep, as I said downthread, they will have researched the best places to contest.
So, the Clever Collective on here - where are those seats?
I suspect its rather the same demographic that pulled toward the SDP - remainy seats in Inner London and University Cities and the like. Plus those parts of the Home Counties within London commuter range
So basically, their fight isn't with Labour. It's with the LibDems? Huh???
Hence the need for an electoral deal.
Although the LibDems tend to do better in Home Counties seats away from London commuter range.
Oh god I was joking about them issuing a strong worded warning presser of brexit / corbyn with a threat to leave...they surely can’t do that...it was be worse than the thick of it.
Setting aside all the straw-man nonsense in your comment, apparently what you can't bring yourself to say is that it's wrong to be prejudiced against Muslims in general.
As the ukipification of British society continues apace Islamophobia has been downgraded to an quirky yet partially understandable peccadillo like supporting Villa.
Terror attacks undertaken in the name of their religion by British Muslims on the wider British public of the UK are hardly going to engender a positive attitude towards people of that religion. Too right there is a lasting negative impact. Who are these incredulous people? It's like being surprised at a finding that "The Blitz has had a lasting negative impact on attiudes towards Nazis".
It is a shit blatantly party-political point by Hope Not Hate. Otherwise we would have polling on the % impact of other parties' voters. What % of Labour voters had a lasting negative impact, eh?
They clearly have an agenda, to equate Tory = anti-Islam to mitigate Labour = anti-semitic. "Oh well, all parties have their problems." Bullshit in the general, bullshit in the specifics.
Marvellous. You have done with Moslems and terror attacks precisely what the far left does with the actions of the Israeli government and Jews.
No. If he was doing with Muslims attacks based on the actions of the Saudi government or some other Muslim government that would be comparable to the actions of.the Israeli government.
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
So it's OK to be prejudiced against British Muslims in general because of the actions of Muslim terrorists, provided the terrorists are British?
The mind boggles.
I wouldn’t say it’s okay, but I think the irrationality is more understandable. It doesn’t help that most of the people who are radicalised come from a Muslim background.
Looking at the alleged impending split(s), I don't understand the timing in pure political terms. If say 4-5 Labour MPs and 2-3 Tory MPs say they're forming a new grouping or a new party, it'll be big news for a day or two, but it'll then get completely blotted out by the Return of Brexit next week. In two weeks' time most people would struggle to remember who it was that resigned.
By contrast, if they do it after the Brexit votes, they can claim it's partly a reaction to whatever they don't like about them, and it becomes part of the main story.
I'm not one of those who is virulent about party-changers - MPs evolve just like everyone else, as do their parties, and in a democracy we're all entitled to. It's the other side of the coin that MPs shouldn't assume they have a God-given right to represent their ;parties forever. But this just seems to me rather odd, and notably devoid of confirmed press leaks.
I'm all for giving them a fair crack of the whip, but I tend to agree with much of this.
Apart from anything else, being (rightly or wrongly) branded as a "Stop Brexit" party is going to require a sharp handbrake turn on March 30th if we leave.
Depends what snow it gathers on the way down the hill.
Comments
My point being your false equivalence.
Jewish people don't kill innocent civilians walking around the UK. Even the IRA usually did it by mistake. IS fanatics do it deliberately.
I remember a Muslim colleague of mine who was devout, but very strongly anti-IS. But he was vaguely sympathetic to the Taliban. At least they made the camels run on time etc.
He was also surprised that Christians didn't respond to criticism as much. I don't think he was really that surprised, he'd lived most of his life here and accepted the customs, but his religion was sacrosanct. That's why he hated IS.
The one thing is certain, today is going to be very interesting
It's jolly good news for the pro-deselection wing of Momentum, though. People like me who've been urging quietly reselecting dissidents and accepting plurality of views are going look pretty limp-wristed. Mainstream members will swing into the camp of requiring a commitment of loyalty before reselection - not on every issue, but in general terms as per RLB's statement.
Can you not see how nonsensical that is?
"Are you really saying that it's reasonable to be prejudiced against Muslims in general because the actions of ISIS, or people holding up banners saying Death to the West?"
You're doing it again? No, I'm saying it's not unreasonable to hold prejudiced views against someone who wants to kill you and yours for merely existing. These views aren't common in the Muslim population, but there is a proportion who hold them even if most would never act on them. Unfortunately, some do.
I do wonder if this pledge card of total loyalty to the Glorious Leader of the Revolution was the last straw.
But actually I was thinking more of the length of time they've been taking the piss.
DCP works.
JAMs.
LOL.
1861 – In Montgomery, Alabama, Jefferson Davis is inaugurated as the provisional President of the Confederate States of America.
1943 – World War II: Joseph Goebbels delivers his Sportpalast speech, whilst Nazis arrest the members of the White Rose movement.
1954 – The first Church of Scientology is established in Los Angeles.
Also.....
In 1930, Elm Farm Ollie becomes the first cow to fly in a fixed-wing aircraft and also the first cow to be milked in an aircraft. Now c'mon - that's worth celebrating with a party!
Instead he was speaking about the actions of British Muslims in Britain. The fact you see no distinction between Brits in Britain and Israel of the religion is swapped is very antisemitic.
The Jewish equivalent of British Muslims in Britain is British Jews in Britain. Not Israel.
Of course, if it's Saint Chris, I apologise for not recognising your Sainthood.
You love everyone, and can say "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
We believe that the lives of millions of Venezuelans have been transformed by the progressive social and democratic policies of Hugo Chávez's government.
3 million refugees agree completely.
And it's also interesting to see that while Lembit Opik and Jon Cruddas signed it, Corbyn did not. Does it date from the days before he learned which way up to hold a pen?
https://twitter.com/Gwynoro/status/1097419380722450432
To say it's reasonable to be "prejudiced" against people because they're terrorists is nonsense on stilts.
Imagine 😂
Not the People who voted in 2016.
Frankly they should then be deselected...
Given a violent reaction to cartoons, terrorism committed in the name of Islam, and the so-called Islamic State, we can't be surprised if many people hold that view.
There is a conflict going on (as there always is in most religions) as to what it means to be Muslim. Unfortunately, there's a noisy and persuasive brand of lunatic fanaticism (ISIS, Al-Qaeda etc) which has successfully committed a number of atrocities. Just pretending they aren't Muslim is about as convincing as a Christian claiming the Crusades were nothing to do with Christianity.
Most Muslims are good people. They drink less and pray more than the average Briton, and that's pretty much the difference. Pretending there isn't a hardline fringe of lunatics or a sizeable minority who oppose gay rights, rights which most Britons would consider to be a good thing, is to shut your eyes for fear of seeing reality.
The mind boggles.
Apart from anything else, being (rightly or wrongly) branded as a "Stop Brexit" party is going to require a sharp handbrake turn on March 30th if we leave.
"Facebook labelled 'digital gangsters' by report on fake news
Company broke privacy and competition law and should be regulated urgently, say MPs"
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/feb/18/facebook-fake-news-investigation-report-regulation-privacy-law-dcms
Anyway, I am going to channel my inner Dr @Sunil_Prasannan and go train riding. Enjoy today. Try not to meltdown too much when the Wee Frees again fail to walk away...
Nothing. Has. Changed.
https://twitter.com/katyballs/status/1097418306301116421
Although the LibDems tend to do better in Home Counties seats away from London commuter range.
Let's wait and see.
In the meantime, it's time to spin the colour wheel.
Pink? Orange? Yellow polka dot?
Don't see why Jezza should be "rattled" - He can go full on Brexiteer now!