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Comments
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From 2017:ydoethur said:
She was, for a long time. In fact she resigned from the UUP over their decision to resume formal links with the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
She seems markedly less pro-Corbyn however.
'Lady Sylvia Hermon has ruled out ever lending her support to a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn.
'The veteran North Down politician, who is the widow of former RUC Chief Constable Sir John Hermon, has traditionally supported Labour in Westminster votes.
'Seven years ago she quit the Ulster Unionist Party in protest at its alliance with the Conservatives ahead of the 2010 General Election.
'But Lady Hermon, who is again standing as an independent on Thursday, said "there are no circumstances" in which she would support a Corbyn-led government.'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/i-could-never-back-labour-if-corbyn-was-its-leader-says-hermon-35783622.html0 -
Yes - the EU can buy the Irish a new potato factory or something to save face. Simples.MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Well of course he does, but the also wants May to be the one that gets the blame for it. As long as No Deal is a possibility, Labour must ensure that it remains HER that drives us over the cliff edge. That's why Labour can't be in a formal negotiation process with May as long as she's still driving us towards the cliff edge.Sean_F said:
3. Corbyn wants no deal.0 -
Like Blazing Saddles - don't move or the ****** gets it.MTimT said:
Not sure it would be that successful though. If 110 stood together, particularly if their CPs were very pro-Brexit, it would be a brave Party that withdrew that many whips simultaneously. It could be shown to be an empty threat, even before there were a chance to deploy.Pulpstar said:
I always assumed voting against party position in a VONC = whip withdrawn so you couldn't stand at next GE.MTimT said:
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Yes, I get that but it's a nuclear option par excellence and would lead to open civil war in the Conservative Party would it not (which isn't a bad reason for proposing it I suppose) but that's not how politics works. Blair didn't make support for Iraq a Confidence measure but he would have quit had the motion to support the war lost. May could have publicly stated she would resign if the WA was rejected (but most would have called her bluff).Pulpstar said:
Making May's deal an explicit confidence vote triggers either a General Election or the deal passes. It *moves things forward*. I have no idea if there is a majority for either, and that was not my argument.stodge said:
Is there a majority for either option apart from in your head?Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.
As to repealing the FTPA, I've no idea whether there is a majority for that or not. I imagine IF both the Conservative and Labour parties want or believe a GE necessary they have more than enough numbers to make it happen.
I don't know why the current Conservatives are so anti the FTPA - they were happy to support it once.0 -
Also true.Norm said:
How about numpties among the pro second referendum school bringing down the government? I suspect the likes of Grieve at al will bring the gov't down to avoid a no deal scenarioMaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Didn't Major make Maastricht a confidence vote ?stodge said:
Yes, I get that but it's a nuclear option par excellence and would lead to open civil war in the Conservative Party would it not (which isn't a bad reason for proposing it I suppose) but that's not how politics works. Blair didn't make support for Iraq a Confidence measure but he would have quit had the motion to support the war lost. May could have publicly stated she would resign if the WA was rejected (but most would have called her bluff).Pulpstar said:
Making May's deal an explicit confidence vote triggers either a General Election or the deal passes. It *moves things forward*. I have no idea if there is a majority for either, and that was not my argument.stodge said:
Is there a majority for either option apart from in your head?Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.
As to repealing the FTPA, I've no idea whether there is a majority for that or not. I imagine IF both the Conservative and Labour parties want or believe a GE necessary they have more than enough numbers to make it happen.
I don't know why the current Conservatives are so anti the FTPA - they were happy to support it once.0 -
He would have been better to turn up and make that demand in personBlack_Rook said:
More stonewalling. The more he prats about, the more the clock runs down. He wants No Deal.SouthamObserver said:So, Mr Corbyn, you said you talked to the IRA and Hamas without pre-condition to find paths to peace, but you will not speak to the PM without pre-condition to try to find a way to avoid an economic catastrophe for the UK. Why?
https://twitter.com/fleetstreetfox/status/10856275916781486100 -
It worked there.....MTimT said:
Like Blazing Saddles - don't move or the ****** gets it.MTimT said:
Not sure it would be that successful though. If 110 stood together, particularly if their CPs were very pro-Brexit, it would be a brave Party that withdrew that many whips simultaneously. It could be shown to be an empty threat, even before there were a chance to deploy.Pulpstar said:
I always assumed voting against party position in a VONC = whip withdrawn so you couldn't stand at next GE.MTimT said:
Who selects Tory candidates, the Central Office or the CPs?Pulpstar said:
OK So we have a General Election and they're all deselected. We move forward.MaxPB said:
There are enough numpties in the ERG to vote against and bring down the government.Pulpstar said:A smart way forward would be
i) Repeal the FTPA
ii) Make the next vote on May's deal an explicit confidence vote.0 -
Indeed - and she needs to watch her back against the DUP. I had half expected her to abstain.Black_Rook said:
From 2017:ydoethur said:
She was, for a long time. In fact she resigned from the UUP over their decision to resume formal links with the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
She seems markedly less pro-Corbyn however.
'Lady Sylvia Hermon has ruled out ever lending her support to a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn.
'The veteran North Down politician, who is the widow of former RUC Chief Constable Sir John Hermon, has traditionally supported Labour in Westminster votes.
'Seven years ago she quit the Ulster Unionist Party in protest at its alliance with the Conservatives ahead of the 2010 General Election.
'But Lady Hermon, who is again standing as an independent on Thursday, said "there are no circumstances" in which she would support a Corbyn-led government.'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/i-could-never-back-labour-if-corbyn-was-its-leader-says-hermon-35783622.html0 -
Thanks for thatBlack_Rook said:
From 2017:ydoethur said:
She was, for a long time. In fact she resigned from the UUP over their decision to resume formal links with the Tories.Pulpstar said:
Absolubtely not, she's one of the most sensible parliamentarians there is.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Isn't Hermon pro-Labour?Pulpstar said:
It would have been very close indeed.Sandpit said:
Of course he will, as will every MP wishing to remain a member of the Conservative party.MikeL said:Rees-Mogg just confirmed to Andrew Neil that he'll support Govt in a future VONC whatever May does in the Brexit negotiations.
This is the root of why the FTPA is such a problem: a decade ago, last night’s vote would have been made an issue of confidence, the equivalent of a four line whip, and would probably have passed.
The Gov't would have had 325 less 10 DUP = 315. (Tories + Hermon less Laing less 2 tellers)
She seems markedly less pro-Corbyn however.
'Lady Sylvia Hermon has ruled out ever lending her support to a Labour government led by Jeremy Corbyn.
'The veteran North Down politician, who is the widow of former RUC Chief Constable Sir John Hermon, has traditionally supported Labour in Westminster votes.
'Seven years ago she quit the Ulster Unionist Party in protest at its alliance with the Conservatives ahead of the 2010 General Election.
'But Lady Hermon, who is again standing as an independent on Thursday, said "there are no circumstances" in which she would support a Corbyn-led government.'
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/i-could-never-back-labour-if-corbyn-was-its-leader-says-hermon-35783622.html
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I refer you to my earlier question. What, specifically would you be prepared to sacrifice for a backstop solution?MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Immunotherapy RA treatments are now very effective. We spend more on them than any other drug. Thank God a biosimilar (generic) adalimumab had become available.Sandpit said:
Ah okay. That doesn’t sound like something that’s likely to improve with treatment, in which case maybe it’s better that he takes the Chiltern Hundreds.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
The EU don't need to save face. The UK Govt. could agree to build a bridge/tunnel combo between NI and Scotland. Everybody gets something. Ireland gets a massive piece of infrastructure. UK gets Brexit. EU gets orderly Brexit and its £39n.TGOHF said:
Yes - the EU can buy the Irish a new potato factory or something to save face. Simples.MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.
I mean, people, for fucks sake, start thinking outside the bloody box..... We need creative ideas.0 -
I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.0
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Cede Northern Ireland to the Frenchdixiedean said:
I refer you to my earlier question. What, specifically would you be prepared to sacrifice for a backstop solution?MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Peston says otherwise; did they all vote?Black_Rook said:
According to my maths, if the DUP had voted against the Government tonight then the VoNC would've succeeded by a margin of one.Chris_A said:So even with the DUP Corbyn would still have fallen short.
Note: It would appear that the three ex-Labour abstainers/absentees tonight were John Woodcock, Ivan Lewis and Fiona Onasanya.0 -
Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
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Dock them 100 points.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
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Your months of despair prior weren't genuine??SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
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How about Northern Ireland to Spain and Gibraltar to Ireland?JohnLilburne said:
Cede Northern Ireland to the Frenchdixiedean said:
I refer you to my earlier question. What, specifically would you be prepared to sacrifice for a backstop solution?MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
If there is no deal, it is because the Commons has willed it.grabcocque said:
Well of course he does, but the also wants May to be the one that gets the blame for it. As long as No Deal is a possibility, Labour must ensure that it remains HER that drives us over the cliff edge. That's why Labour can't be in a formal negotiation process with May as long as she's still driving us towards the cliff edge.Sean_F said:
3. Corbyn wants no deal.0 -
One of the rare times I agree with Corbo.
May should take No Deal off the table.
That is a fair starting point for talks given she has said several times she wants to avoid it.0 -
I wasn't despairing. I was observing. I guess it did not seem real. Now it does.IanB2 said:
Your months of despair prior weren't genuine??SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
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The problem with a new referendum is that the people that want an new EU referendum are the same ones that oppose a new Scottish Independence one. The other problem is that we now know that in the event of a leave vote this parliament and these parties will never implement it. So why waste £120M on the pointless vote. Just withdraw article 50 and prepare to be swept away at the next election.0
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It is ridiculous. You go into the talks without preconditions, you let May tell you she will not take No Deal off the table and you react accordingly.Anazina said:One of the rare times I agree with Corbo.
May should take No Deal off the table.
That is a fair starting point for talks given she has said several times she wants to avoid it.
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If May took "No Deal" off the table, Corbyn would just find something else to object to. He's just yanking her chain.Anazina said:One of the rare times I agree with Corbo.
May should take No Deal off the table.
That is a fair starting point for talks given she has said several times she wants to avoid it.0 -
The night is always darkest before the dawn.SouthamObserver said:
I wasn't despairing. I was observing. I guess it did not seem real. Now it does.IanB2 said:
Your months of despair prior weren't genuine??SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
Or before the apocalypse, to be fair.0 -
May can't just proclaim that legislation to leave the EU doesn't apply (well, she can, but the Supreme Court will take a different view)IanB2 said:
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.0 -
Guardian has MP vote roll call here.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2019/jan/16/how-did-my-mp-vote-in-the-no-confidence-motion?CMP=snap0 -
Surely May would be better meeting all the party leaders at once, not individually...0
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If the government wants to revoke or extend (with EU support), it can, and quickly.Sean_F said:
May can't just proclaim that legislation to leave the EU doesn't apply (well, she can, but the Supreme Court will take a different view)IanB2 said:
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.-1 -
Cunning. We can always claim Ireland was a party to the Treaty of Utrecht anyway. While we're at it, I'd quite like to swap Scotland for Flanders..ydoethur said:
How about Northern Ireland to Spain and Gibraltar to Ireland?JohnLilburne said:
Cede Northern Ireland to the Frenchdixiedean said:
I refer you to my earlier question. What, specifically would you be prepared to sacrifice for a backstop solution?MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Very good thread header Cyclefree - thanks.
I only wish you had some influence over May and Corbyn
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What are they going of say. Jezza says must take no deal off table, cable says must offer second referendum, SNP say they want that and a second referendum on Scottish independence and the greens bang on about fracking.solarflare said:Surely May would be better meeting all the party leaders at once, not individually...
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Yes, I would say it was not possible to diagnose autism this way, just as it is difficult to do the same for Trump's supposed Narcisstic Personality Disorder. It would require some evidence of damage to physical, mental or social functioning to reach that threshold, and there is no evidence for that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is not a link to medical confirmation and without it you may want to take care in your allegationsgrabcocque said:
She's described "as having no friends" by michael goveBig_G_NorthWales said:
Can you provide a link to your allegationgrabcocque said:
She's autistic. That's all.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no doubt that TM legacy will be 'nothing has changed' but no matter your politics you have to be amazed at her resilience and dedication to public serviceFoxy said:So, after a seismic 48 hours...Nothing has changed.
The stalemate continues.
At least we had something to bet on, and I am £100 better off.
People have said she lacks warmth and personality on first meeting.
She even has the autistic facial structure, wide eyes and cat face.
It has variously been said that she is ‘fundamentally unknowable’, ‘aloof’, ’reticent’, ‘self-contained’ and ‘sphinx like’.
She shows every single trait of somebody with autism. Her absurd, self-defeating stubbornness, secrecy and absolute imperviousness to either shame or change are all just part of May's neurological makeup.
Theresa May is neurologically incapable of the task to which we have set her. In many ways it's cruel, because we're torturing a helpless innocent.
I do think that her mental rigidity and poor people skills make her particularly ill suited for the task of negotiation, either with other British politicians or with those abroad. She has squandered 2 years of negotiating time and has no ideas on how to break the deadlock.0 -
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/crossheading/main-powers-in-connection-with-withdrawal/enactedSean_F said:
May can't just proclaim that legislation to leave the EU doesn't apply (well, she can, but the Supreme Court will take a different view)IanB2 said:
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.
She can refer them to the Act itself.
(1)A Minister of the Crown may by regulations make such provision as the Minister considers appropriate to prevent, remedy or mitigate—
(a)any failure of retained EU law to operate effectively, or
(b)any other deficiency in retained EU law,
arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU.
(5)Regulations under subsection (1) may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament.0 -
Ivan Lewis and John Woodcock have clearly split with Labour on a permanent basis. No way that they would now have the Whip restored. Onasanya clearly feels she has no future there either.0
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In theory, May could offer to form a coalition with Labour to revoke Brexit, but if you expect her to do that, as a pre -condition for talks, I've got a bridge to sell you.IanB2 said:
If the government wants to revoke or extend (with EU support), it can, and quickly.Sean_F said:
May can't just proclaim that legislation to leave the EU doesn't apply (well, she can, but the Supreme Court will take a different view)IanB2 said:
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.0 -
Dirty fucking Leeds.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
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Interesting background. Thanks.Chris_A said:
Immunotherapy RA treatments are now very effective. We spend more on them than any other drug. Thank God a biosimilar (generic) adalimumab had become available.Sandpit said:
Ah okay. That doesn’t sound like something that’s likely to improve with treatment, in which case maybe it’s better that he takes the Chiltern Hundreds.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
I don't follow football, but can't see in any way why this is a problem. Know the enemy.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dirty fucking Leeds.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
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With the aid of the HoC and BBC websites, I make the breakdown as follows:Chris_A said:
Peston says otherwise; did they all vote?Black_Rook said:
According to my maths, if the DUP had voted against the Government tonight then the VoNC would've succeeded by a margin of one.Chris_A said:So even with the DUP Corbyn would still have fallen short.
Note: It would appear that the three ex-Labour abstainers/absentees tonight were John Woodcock, Ivan Lewis and Fiona Onasanya.
Government side
314 Conservatives (that's all of them except the tellers and deputy speaker)
All 10 DUP and Sylvia Hermon
Total = 325
Opposition side
251 Labour (that's all of them except the tellers, two deputy speakers and the absent Paul Flynn)
All 35 SNP, 11 LD, 4 Plaid and the Green
4 independents (Kelvin Hopkins, Jared O'Mara, Frank Field and Stephen Lloyd)
Total = 306
The grand total of votes cast was 631. The remaining 19 non-voters were:
The Speaker and three deputies (4)
The tellers (4)
Sinn Fein (7)
Absent sick: Paul Flynn
Other abstentions: John Woodcock, Fiona Onasanya, Ivan Lewis
So I'm sure my maths was right. If Woodcock, Onasanya and Lewis weren't the abstainers then the BBC are misreporting some of the votes.0 -
It wasn't.JohnLilburne said:We can always claim Ireland was a party to the Treaty of Utrecht anyway.
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I quite agree. Modern biologic therapy for arthritis has transformed the prognosis of rheumatoid, albeit at a pretty steep price.Chris_A said:
Immunotherapy RA treatments are now very effective. We spend more on them than any other drug. Thank God a biosimilar (generic) adalimumab had become available.Sandpit said:
Ah okay. That doesn’t sound like something that’s likely to improve with treatment, in which case maybe it’s better that he takes the Chiltern Hundreds.ydoethur said:
The official story is he has very severe arthritis and therefore finds it very difficult to move.Sandpit said:
Do we know how sick he is? It would be sad to see a repeat of what happened in 1979, where the VonC came down to an MP who was five days from meeting his maker.Pulpstar said:Unlike Lewis and Woodcock who actively chose to abstain tonight, and I say this with a good deal of kindness, but Flynn really needs to resign his seat.
I'm starting to wonder if there's a bit more to it than that.0 -
You tell him Big G!Big_G_NorthWales said:
Apart from your unacceptable language you show no knowledge of negotiation and in virtually every case it worked often upto minutes from signing contract
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Dirty Leeds are the pineapple pizza of football.JohnLilburne said:
I don't follow football, but can't see in any way why this is a problem. Know the enemy.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dirty fucking Leeds.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
All right thinking people hate them.0 -
Wasn't the guy at Derby caught onsite with bolt cutters?JohnLilburne said:
I don't follow football, but can't see in any way why this is a problem. Know the enemy.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dirty fucking Leeds.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
It was more than watching the training pitch with binoculars.0 -
That 's for the birds.williamglenn said:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2018/16/crossheading/main-powers-in-connection-with-withdrawal/enactedSean_F said:
May can't just proclaim that legislation to leave the EU doesn't apply (well, she can, but the Supreme Court will take a different view)IanB2 said:
1. She can, it is entirely within the government's giftSean_F said:grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
1. May can't take it off the table, because it's what has been legislated for, in the absence of a deal,grabcocque said:Corbyn is absolutely right to refuse to talk to May unless she takes no deal off the table. Keeping No Deal alive is blackmail, and nobody in good conscience could be expected to negotiate where the other party is trying to blackmail you.
I would expect the other parties to similarly decline May's invitation.
2. It 's not blackmail to hold people to their decisions,
3. Corbyn wants no deal.
2. Oh yes it is
3. He wants Tory no deal, which he is seen to oppose.
She can refer them to the Act itself.
(1)A Minister of the Crown may by regulations make such provision as the Minister considers appropriate to prevent, remedy or mitigate—
(a)any failure of retained EU law to operate effectively, or
(b)any other deficiency in retained EU law,
arising from the withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the EU.
(5)Regulations under subsection (1) may make any provision that could be made by an Act of Parliament.0 -
Once again someone sees Conspiracy when it's just a cock up...MarqueeMark said:In 2049, unlocked Cabinet papers will reveal how May and Corbyn worked closely on their secret plan to ensure No Deal passed a House set against it as an outcome.....
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In my view, it was all over at about 1 am on June 24th 2016. I realised this in the count. That was the point of no return. The political consequences of overruling the leave victory negate any meaningful attempt to mitigate the damage of the decision.SouthamObserver said:
I wasn't despairing. I was observing. I guess it did not seem real. Now it does.IanB2 said:
Your months of despair prior weren't genuine??SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
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PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm0
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Perhaps I may help here...SouthamObserver said:
I wasn't despairing. I was observing. I guess it did not seem real. Now it does.IanB2 said:
Your months of despair prior weren't genuine??SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
The temptation is to think that we are players in this game, but we're not: we're spectators, not participants. I'm annoyed that many of our MPs and fellow citizens are irresponsible twats, but that's never going to change. Instead of bemoaning our plight, which is unproductive, let us at least try to profit from other people's fuckups.
Think of it positively. You know things that many do not. Corbyn is a Leaver who actively wants chaos. May is Clausewitz type IV. MPs are [REDACTED]. If you know there's going to be a bad thing on March 29th, then you have considerable time to arrange your finances to benefit from it. Use this knowledge and the time that you have to make your life better.
After all: what else are you going to do...?0 -
Wouldn't that be B+E?Foxy said:
Wasn't the guy at Derby caught onsite with bolt cutters?JohnLilburne said:
I don't follow football, but can't see in any way why this is a problem. Know the enemy.TheScreamingEagles said:
Dirty fucking Leeds.FrancisUrquhart said:Marcelo Bielsa has admitted Leeds United have spied on all their opponents this season but remains adamant no specific rules were broken and believes he is guilty of stupidity rather than cheating.
It was more than watching the training pitch with binoculars.0 -
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
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If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Where are you seeing that being said out of interestIanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
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Oh goody. The sides are still talking past each other to posture pointlessly, what's she going to say? "I offered to speak to Corbyn but he said no"? Labour and others won't care about that.IanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
Well that's a pointless question if ever I saw one. Should be involved vs how to ensure he is on terms both sides can accept are very different.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You cannot take No Deal off the table because it is not an option in the first place, it is the consequence of failure to exercise an option.Anazina said:One of the rare times I agree with Corbo.
May should take No Deal off the table.
That is a fair starting point for talks given she has said several times she wants to avoid it.
Insultingly patronising analogy time: if the menu says chicken tikka, korma or biryani you have four options - chicken tikka, korma, biryani or not eating. Taking no deal off the table is saying to the waiter "I do not wish not to be served a meal" and the waiter's only possible response is: well do you want tikka, korma or biryani, then?
That's one problem. In itself it is not insuperable, because if "I don't want No Meal" completely defines your position then you can make the choice by asking what the chef recommends, or throwing dice, or something. The further problem is that you and your fellow diners don't just want to avoid a No Meal situation, they are also each of them implacably opposed to at least one of tikka, korma, biryani as well.
Which is why "No Deal won't happen because nobody wants it" is just not a sound argument.0 -
I'm just joshing.....eek said:
Once again someone sees Conspiracy when it's just a cock up...MarqueeMark said:In 2049, unlocked Cabinet papers will reveal how May and Corbyn worked closely on their secret plan to ensure No Deal passed a House set against it as an outcome.....
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Nothing has changed. My deal or no deal. Etc.0
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Link please ?IanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
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When there is one, I'll post it. Meanwhile I am ahead of the pack.TheScreamingEagles said:
Link please ?IanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
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"I'm still here."IanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
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Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
It's notable that Woodcock, Lewis and Onasanya were all there for the vote yesterday.
So no question these are deliberate abstentions today.
Now they knew their votes didn't matter today - Govt was certain to win.
But it begs the question - if Govt loses the DUP and it's on an absolute knife-edge what would they do? They surely aren't indifferent as to whether there is a GE - it will have a major personal affect on them.
Has to be a chance they vote with the Govt - especially Woodcock and Lewis who have surely left Labour ideologically. Situation a bit different with Onasanya as presumably she still supports Labour 100%.0 -
It would be an interesting prospect. Perhaps that can follow the individual meetings. How could anyone say no? And it would mean they could not say one thing and claim another slightly different thing without all knowing about it.solarflare said:Surely May would be better meeting all the party leaders at once, not individually...
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If he hired one, he's not being forced surely?TheScreamingEagles said:
Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Completely O/T (for which I apologise, its an excellent thread header) but I have just caught the trailer for Vice. I really can't remember when I was looking forward to a film so much.0
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I now have a mental image of May and Corbyn I could well have done without.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:
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"Nothing has changed"Scott_P said:0 -
A good review of the UK's three Brexit options:
1. No Deal is grim. If anything they understate the ghastliness because there will big political fallout from having to make the same compromises, this time in the context of economic dislocation and no transition period.
2. Remain after a second referendum lacks support and is difficult to achieve.
3. Resubmit a revised, softer version of the Deal with countdown to No Deal hanging as a threat, in the hope that enough Labour MPs come on board. Highly risky.
The authors think Theresa May is pinning her hopes on the third option.
https://twitter.com/JohnSpringford/status/10855499743671541800 -
0
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I wonder how more will get to that position. I got there awhile ago.SouthamObserver said:I'd say that tonight for the first time I feel genuine despair. I don't see a way back from the brink from here. Our country is in deep, deep trouble.
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The idea is to PRETEND you are being forced...Benpointer said:
If he hired one, he's not being forced surely?TheScreamingEagles said:
Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Damn, another hour to wait up...Scott_P said:0 -
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I see Laura K has read your post nowIanB2 said:PM statement outside no 10 at 10 pm
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Since option 3 is not available, that leaves, 2, which has been rejected by the public or er, no deal.FF43 said:A good review of the UK's three Brexit options:
1. No Deal is grim. If anything they understate the ghastliness because there will big political fallout from having to make the same compromises, this time in the context of economic dislocation and no transition period.
2. Remain on a second referendum lacks support and is difficult to achieve.
3. Resubmit a revised, softer version of the Deal with countdown to No Deal hanging as a threat, in the hope that enough Labour MPs come on board. Highly risky.
The authors think Theresa May is pinning her hopes on the third option.
https://twitter.com/JohnSpringford/status/1085549974367154180
So it is a false suggestion.
If she announces that she is going to try to renegotiate I hope Hammond puts us - and her - out of her misery by resigning.0 -
Now throw in the ‘Chief Whip’.ydoethur said:
I now have a mental image of May and Corbyn I could well have done without.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
The EU don't want it delivered anymore, so any prospect of it being taken away has gone, if it ever was there.MarqueeMark said:
Take away the backstop - and she can deliver......grabcocque said:
It's how they work if they think you have a chance of delivering. May is clearly unable to deliver; her party want to crash out and so does the DUP, so why would anyone go out on a limb for her?MarqueeMark said:
Until 48 hours to 29th March deadline......... It's the way they work. Always have.grabcocque said:
The EU will not offer further concessions. This deal is the best deal and the only deal.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Why weaken your hand and make the EU refuse further concessions. It is not going to happen until a clear alternative has been decided uponJonathan said:She should take no deal off the table.
Though I do look forward to the gradually ramping chaos and panic as we move ever closer to that cliff edge, it's going to be beautiful.0 -
Nice to have beat the online media by a whole nine minutes!Benpointer said:0 -
With any luck Ms Onasanya will find herself otherwise engaged shortly, won’t have that decision to make.MikeL said:It's notable that Woodcock, Lewis and Onasanya were all there for the vote yesterday.
So no question these are deliberate abstentions today.
Now they knew their votes didn't matter today - Govt was certain to win.
But it begs the question - if Govt loses the DUP and it's on an absolute knife-edge what would they do? They surely aren't indifferent as to whether there is a GE - it will have a major personal affect on them.
Has to be a chance they vote with the Govt - especially Woodcock and Lewis who have surely left Labour ideologically. Situation a bit different with Onasanya as presumably she still supports Labour 100%.0 -
Thatcher announced her resignation the morning of the Parliamentary VONC.ydoethur said:0 -
Shall I add a pid cock?TheScreamingEagles said:
Now throw in the ‘Chief Whip’.ydoethur said:
I now have a mental image of May and Corbyn I could well have done without.TheScreamingEagles said:
Well you’ve never hired a dominatrix.Sean_F said:
If he won't, he won't. You can't force someone to do what he doesn't want to do.ydoethur said:
Well, she's now offered twice. It's hardly her fault if he prefers to look like the posturing waste of space he undoubtedly is.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Why the need to "take care"? Do you really think Treason Mayhem is going to take time out of her heavily occluded calendar to sue grabcoque because he called her autistic on the arse end of the Internet?Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is not a link to medical confirmation and without it you may want to take care in your allegationsgrabcocque said:
She's described "as having no friends" by michael goveBig_G_NorthWales said:
Can you provide a link to your allegationgrabcocque said:
She's autistic. That's all.Big_G_NorthWales said:
There is no doubt that TM legacy will be 'nothing has changed' but no matter your politics you have to be amazed at her resilience and dedication to public serviceFoxy said:So, after a seismic 48 hours...Nothing has changed.
The stalemate continues.
At least we had something to bet on, and I am £100 better off.
People have said she lacks warmth and personality on first meeting.
She even has the autistic facial structure, wide eyes and cat face.
It has variously been said that she is ‘fundamentally unknowable’, ‘aloof’, ’reticent’, ‘self-contained’ and ‘sphinx like’.
She shows every single trait of somebody with autism. Her absurd, self-defeating stubbornness, secrecy and absolute imperviousness to either shame or change are all just part of May's neurological makeup.
Theresa May is neurologically incapable of the task to which we have set her. In many ways it's cruel, because we're torturing a helpless innocent.0 -
The past is a different country, as they say.AlastairMeeks said:
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Benpointer
LOL!
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OH HOLY F*****G S**T. EVERYTIME SHE OPENS HER MOUTH THE POUND TAKES A BATH. WHAT IS IT THIS TIME? ELECTION? RESIGNATION? GONU? WAR WITH SATURN? CAN'T YOU LAY OFF THE DRAMA FOR A FEW DAYS GODSDAMMIT?! I CAN ONLY COPE WITH ONE B****Y EMERGENCY AT A TIME.Scott_P said:0
