I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
Antiquarian Action!
I can see the banner now.
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politics
So be it.
Let No Dealers join the Tommy Robinson party.
They’ll be happier there.
A brilliant Tory leader won the Tories their only majority in the last quarter of a century when UKIP polled near 15%.
If we Remain I will certainly be out campaigning for Corbyn. Under those circumstances the Tory party deserves to be crushed. I am not predicting it will be, just saying I will do my bit to try and make sure it is.
If we remain, it will only be with the assistance of Labour votes in Parliament, so that would be a curious reaction.
I agree, though, that remain would lead to something of a realignment in UK politics, which would likely be no bad thing.
My guess, FWIW, is that May told them yesterday that she cannot get the deal in its current form through the Commons and there is going to have to be at least a tweak to it. Until the extent of that tweak is ascertained and agreed a meeting seems premature.
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
I can see why leavers are keen not to allow people to change their minds but if there is a genuine majority for Remain now how is more democratic to artificially deny them that option in a second vote?
Because it's always possible to refuse to implement the decision of the British people on the off chance they might change their mind later.
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.
No Tory will vote against the government or abstain in a VONC. It’s just not going to happen
Sarah Wollaston?
To see her (and Allen) out of the party would be a blessing.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
It is curious.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
Its mystifying to me.
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
Brexit is like a threesome.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.
If that's your experience of a threesome - then you weren't doing it right.....
In my limited experience there are two people who enjoy it and a third who isn't into it at all, but has to go along with it for the good of the group. A little like democracy, really...
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
Antiquarian Action!
I can see the banner now.
Activists will break into your home and leave notes criticising your extensive Jackie Collins collection.
As long as they make no comment on the Dick Francis section I'm cool with that.
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
Bit early in the day for MDMA...
I'm genuinely trying to change my mindset from an aggressive Trumpian win-lose to a more considerate win-win.
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
The number of malcontents sufficiently agitated by #brexitbetrayed to insurrect over it and those sufficiently sound of limb to be capable of it isn't significant.
I simply don't think that's the case. The apparent metamorphosis of UKIP into something uglier and nastier than we've seen before looks to me like the start of something we haven't seen before in British politics, certainly not in my memory.
Look at how the Gilets Jaunes came out of absolutely nowhere. A couple of months ago, did anyone think France would be on fire? People keep on saying that we don't do riots, etc, in the UK. What they fail to understand is that's because we have an incredibly strong - unparalleled in fact - tradition of democracy.
The referendum was our safety valve. Giving people a voice who had been ignored for decades. Our revolutions have always been achieved through the ballot box rather than direct action. But shut off that safety valve and anything could happen. I'm not saying it will, but I am saying we will be in completely uncharted territory and nobody can be sure what will happen. I'm incredibly fearful of what's to come if we walk away from the political norms that safeguard our civil society.
We’ve seen with fanatics in this country who are motivated as young adults to go and fight for a barbarous ideology in a foreign land, or to carry out activities here in the UK.
It does not take much to acquire the knowledge and materials to carry out terrorist style activities. It might all start out a bit ‘four lions’ but these youngsters were radicalised by what they saw as a massive injustice and grievance in lands thousands of miles away.
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.
Yes totally agree with your last paragraph. Surely someone has to talk her down.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
It is curious.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
Its mystifying to me.
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
Brexit is like a threesome.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.
If that's your experience of a threesome - then you weren't doing it right.....
In my limited experience there are two people who enjoy it and a third who isn't into it at all, but has to go along with it for the good of the group. A little like democracy, really...
Ah, TSE has clearly been doing it wrong. If only he had choreographed it using ranked choice.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
To be fair, that wasn't brought up much until Magic Grandpa appeared on the scene promising to take us back to those halcyon days.
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
Not sure I would want to be a worker for either Labour or the Tories next General Election in Stoke or Mansfield or Hartlepool or.....
I seriously doubt that even the leave voters in those towns are as exercised by Brexit as you might think. It is only a lifelong obsession of the ERG-types.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
It is curious.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
They think that MPs will do what their manifesto commits them to.
Nothing in the Conservative party manifesto committed MPs to risk disruption of food or medical supplies.
But we can cancel and invoke A50 again and prepare properly, so this is no excuse.
I hope some Tory leaver with enough brains is going to come out and suggest this soon.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
The whole world economy is slowing down and car sales have fallen off a clliff. France has already issued a growth warning. Putting thingsi n a wider contect might help a more rational evaluation.
As to the A50 matter, so what? If we had or might ever want to rescind that judgement would have IMO been forthcoming anyway. The judgement is irrelevant to the ongoing political debate in the UK.
I think the EU continues to want us in rather than out. That said, if I was the EU and we were going to play the hokey-cokey with A50 I might sooner rather than later tell us to get to Falkirk rather than have to wake up each morning wondering whether the UK had invoked or not. That's no way to run an association of independent sovereign nations.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
My condolences.
You are always kind. The rest of us could do with living up to your standards more often.
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
It doesn't help (again) that the EZ is really struggling to avoid a recession at the moment. Looking at it slightly longer term we seem to be consuming slightly less and investing (construction) slightly more. Small steps etc.
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.
I'm a Remainer. Look at my response today.
Yes but you don't represent all Remainers. Quite honestly Remainers weren't all that nasty during the campaign, maybe even a bit too nice for their own good. Since then things have changed, abuse of Leavers is now on a par with the abuse going in the opposite direction. We're more divided today than we were in 2016.
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
As late as 1950 the Liberal election posters sported a picture of Big Ben with a question 'What's the time" and the answer 'Time we had the Liberals back'
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
That is so sad, Mr Big G. My condolences to you. The only thing we leave of worth are happy memories. I hope the ones you have of him will be of comfort to you.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
There is a remain majority in Parliament, thanks to T. May's botched general election campaign. Most of Parliament's remainers have to date been paying at least lip service to the referendum result. But after tomorrow, when it becomes clear not even leavers respect the mandate, why in the name of ever living heck would remainers?
Even now, the remain majority in Parliament is going to try to remain using a referendum to offer wafer-thin democratic cover, but the more obnoxious leavers are in the next few days, the less willing remainia will be to be conciliatory.
Push remainers too hard and Parliament will pivot to hard-remain-no-2nd-ref and leavers will be able to repent at their leisure.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
I was born just before the winter of discontent, and as old as I am, I'm not ready to be 50 yet you beasts.
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.
Yes totally agree with your last paragraph. Surely someone has to talk her down.
To what end? Humiliation occurs with or without the vote. The government's survival is tenuous anyway. Pulling the vote is cowardly and doesn't help move things on.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
Sorry to hear that Big G - enjoy every day as I know you do.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
Hear hear. I'm sorry to hear about your business partner's death. It must be shocking and painful for you. You have my sincere condolences.
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
You have my deepest condolences, Big G. I enjoy teasing you, but it's very obvious to me you are a good and decent man. Take care.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.
Yes totally agree with your last paragraph. Surely someone has to talk her down.
To what end? Humiliation occurs with or without the vote. The government's survival is tenuous anyway. Pulling the vote is cowardly and doesn't help move things on.
If somebody tried to filibuster, wouldn't the house just guillotine the debate?
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.
I'm a Remainer. Look at my response today.
And yet many are not like that. As there are nasty leavers there are nasty remainers, going on about the choices being sanity and insanity, that leavers were duped fools, racists and more. Those will still come out
I have just received a telephone call to say my business partner for nearly 40 years died at 4.00am this morning, 2 days before his first great grandchild is due. A wonderful man and we never had a cross word in all our time in business together.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
That is so sad, Mr Big G. My condolences to you. The only thing we leave of worth are happy memories. I hope the ones you have of him will be of comfort to you.
Very nicely put sentiment, which I will happily endorse.
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
The number of malcontents sufficiently agitated by #brexitbetrayed to insurrect over it and those sufficiently sound of limb to be capable of it isn't significant.
I simply don't think that's the case. The apparent metamorphosis of UKIP into something uglier and nastier than we've seen before looks to me like the start of something we haven't seen before in British politics, certainly not in my memory.
Look at how the Gilets Jaunes came out of absolutely nowhere. A couple of months ago, did anyone think France would be on fire? People keep on saying that we don't do riots, etc, in the UK. What they fail to understand is that's because we have an incredibly strong - unparalleled in fact - tradition of democracy.
The referendum was our safety valve. Giving people a voice who had been ignored for decades. Our revolutions have always been achieved through the ballot box rather than direct action. But shut off that safety valve and anything could happen. I'm not saying it will, but I am saying we will be in completely uncharted territory and nobody can be sure what will happen. I'm incredibly fearful of what's to come if we walk away from the political norms that safeguard our civil society.
We’ve seen with fanatics in this country who are motivated as young adults to go and fight for a barbarous ideology in a foreign land, or to carry out activities here in the UK.
It does not take much to acquire the knowledge and materials to carry out terrorist style activities. It might all start out a bit ‘four lions’ but these youngsters were radicalised by what they saw as a massive injustice and grievance in lands thousands of miles away.
It's why I refuse to use words like traitor and treason and hold in contempt those who do. Such language is the start of a slippery slope. However I fear there are far too many people intent on fanning the flames to get what they want when we really have no idea where this will all end up. My hope is that in time cooler heads will prevail, but it's hard to see it happening right now.
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
Not sure I would want to be a worker for either Labour or the Tories next General Election in Stoke or Mansfield or Hartlepool or.....
I seriously doubt that even the leave voters in those towns are as exercised by Brexit as you might think. It is only a lifelong obsession of the ERG-types.
Of course theyre not but Brexit is simply a touchstone for a whole raft of issues and they are very exercised about them, John Harris in the Guardian has been doing solid work looking at the issues and is close enough to explaining why they wont go away.
The ramifications of this judgement today may well go a long way, and beyond Brexit.
It may well alter the balance in the Conservative Party by changing the requirements that the PCP see as essential for the post May leader, and hence the candidates that are presented to the membership (if a vote is offered to the membership).
Then there is the future of Brexit (RIP) 2016 - 2019 and a (RIP) peoples vote.
On the assumption that Mays deal is annihilated by Parliament and both the Speaker and Parliament think it should be involved in the process, I do not see how Parliament can then take control and offer a deal it refuses by a substantial majority to the people.
Parliament will have to choose between remain and no deal. They can't witter on about taking control through he amendments they table and then abrogate responsibility for the final decision to the people, unless they want to endure lasting ridicule.
If they do grow a pair and make a final choice (which would I assume be remain) then we are back to early June 2016. Just our political parties are fractured. We can then remain. After that, who knows!
The Gov't needs to pass an amendment to the timetabling program (Like Grieve did) to pull/delay the vote. Seeing as that could well be defeated by a bigger margin than the vote itself might be (Surely there is a will in parliament to get on with things amongst non payroll supporters of the vote) it is a non starter. They might want to pull the vote, but there is no way they can do so.
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.
I'm a Remainer. Look at my response today.
Yes but you don't represent all Remainers. Quite honestly Remainers weren't all that nasty during the campaign, maybe even a bit too nice for their own good. Since then things have changed, abuse of Leavers is now on a par with the abuse going in the opposite direction. We're more divided today than we were in 2016.
Yes I think that's so, and I've been as guilty of it as anyone. I've been feeling aggressive.
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
Since Brexit offers nothing to help the dissatisfied, likely that may be the outcome anyway. I suspect that a democratically endorsed exit from Brexit will be better than a Brexit that betrays everything promised during its birth and reveals the whole charade as one giant hollow promise.
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
The whole world economy is slowing down and car sales have fallen off a clliff. France has already issued a growth warning. Putting thingsi n a wider contect might help a more rational evaluation.
And yet we are told they would happily reduce their exports by 1/8th rather than reconsider the backstop.
No wonder the EU countries are up shit creek. The rest of the world is laughing at them.
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.
Yes totally agree with your last paragraph. Surely someone has to talk her down.
To what end? Humiliation occurs with or without the vote. The government's survival is tenuous anyway. Pulling the vote is cowardly and doesn't help move things on.
If somebody tried to filibuster, wouldn't the house just guillotine the debate?
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
Yes, they seriously underestimate how difficult it could prove because they only care about keeping us in at all costs. But that seems to be the next challenge to he faced, since leave is too divided to confirm something.
I'm not sure whether I count as an ultra-Remainer but my view is that Britain's spiral down continues. Every option from here looks to be a deterioration of the position. Remaining in the EU would be as disastrous (in different ways) as leaving on any of the currently feasible methods.
That was also the case on 23rd June 2016, of course.
The Gov't needs to pass an amendment to the timetabling program (Like Grieve did) to pull/delay the vote. Seeing as that could well be defeated by a bigger margin than the vote itself might be (Surely there is a will in parliament to get on with things amongst non payroll supporters of the vote) it is a non starter. They might want to pull the vote, but there is no way they can do so.
Just checking, the only person who can filibuster a programmed vote is the goverment minister doing the wrap-up.
Which is to say, Gove.
I don't see Gove filibustering the vote, he wants this ballache over as much as anyone.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
It is curious.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
They think that MPs will do what their manifesto commits them to.
Nothing in the Conservative party manifesto committed MPs to risk disruption of food or medical supplies.
I have here a full copy of the English Constitution:
"We, the undersigned, do enter in to a process of ever closer wanting a nice cup of tea and a sit down."
Obviously, the full cream tea had to be omitted on account of Devon and Cornwall failing to reach agreement on whether it was jam first or cream first.
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
To me the clinching argument in a Remain-vs-Deal referendum should be "a vote for Deal is a vote to carry on talking about Brexit for another five years."
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
Not sure I would want to be a worker for either Labour or the Tories next General Election in Stoke or Mansfield or Hartlepool or.....
I seriously doubt that even the leave voters in those towns are as exercised by Brexit as you might think. It is only a lifelong obsession of the ERG-types.
Of course theyre not but Brexit is simply a touchstone for a whole raft of issues and they are very exercised about them, John Harris in the Guardian has been doing solid work looking at the issues and is close enough to explaining why they wont go away.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn in
With respect, the defenestration of Cameron allowed Corbyn space. Without that, it’s hard to see the chain which led to a GE. It was the dimmer MPs like Bridgen who opened the door.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.
Yes totally agree with your last paragraph. Surely someone has to talk her down.
To what end? Humiliation occurs with or without the vote. The government's survival is tenuous anyway. Pulling the vote is cowardly and doesn't help move things on.
To me it just makes no sense, if the reports are true. Why would a prime minister want to be beaten in such an important vote by 50 to 100. Surely there is some strategic planning.
Personally I hope May wins the vote. However just ploughing on regardless seems reckless.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
It is curious.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
They think that MPs will do what their manifesto commits them to.
Nothing in the Conservative party manifesto committed MPs to risk disruption of food or medical supplies.
That's ok, since there is no such risk.
Well that unsupported assertion from an anonymous poster on a website puts my mind completely at rest, despite the many reports, including government reports, suggesting that both are worries.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn in
With respect, the defenestration of Cameron allowed Corbyn space. Without that, it’s hard to see the chain which led to a GE. It was the dimmer MPs like Bridgen who opened the door.
With respect there was no defenestration of Cameron. He resigned of his own accord after having lost a vote he himself called and after having specifically said he would not resign no matter what the result.
I don't criticise him for either of those actions but to try and claim they were caused by anyone other than himself is rather ridiculous.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
To me the clinching argument in a Remain-vs-Deal referendum should be "a vote for Deal is a vote to carry on talking about Brexit for another five years."
A vote for Remain is a vote to carry on talking about it for another twenty years.
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
The whole world economy is slowing down and car sales have fallen off a clliff. France has already issued a growth warning. Putting thingsi n a wider contect might help a more rational evaluation.
And yet we are told they would happily reduce their exports by 1/8th rather than reconsider the backstop.
No wonder the EU countries are up shit creek. The rest of the world is laughing at them.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
Not sure I would want to be a worker for either Labour or the Tories next General Election in Stoke or Mansfield or Hartlepool or.....
Given your previous comments on any place north of Watford Gap, you never would have, anyway.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
To me the clinching argument in a Remain-vs-Deal referendum should be "a vote for Deal is a vote to carry on talking about Brexit for another five years."
A vote for Remain is a vote to carry on talking about it for another twenty years.
But at least we would be fed and watered while we discussed it.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
Very sorry to hear of your loss Big G. I know my business partner is as close as, if not closer, than some of my family. I do understand your feelings today.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
And I suspect a good deal of that kindness is encouraged by your example, Big G. All the best.
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.
The one thing guaranteed to cause a revocation of Article 50 would be a new PM pushing a delusional no deal fantasy .
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
The whole world economy is slowing down and car sales have fallen off a clliff. France has already issued a growth warning. Putting thingsi n a wider contect might help a more rational evaluation.
And yet we are told they would happily reduce their exports by 1/8th rather than reconsider the backstop.
No wonder the EU countries are up shit creek. The rest of the world is laughing at them.
Good point we've got them over a barrel.
Except....1/8th vs 7/16ths of exports.
I think the only place that barrel is pointing is at our foot, not theirs.
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
To me the clinching argument in a Remain-vs-Deal referendum should be "a vote for Deal is a vote to carry on talking about Brexit for another five years."
A vote for Remain is a vote to carry on talking about it for another twenty years.
But at least we would be fed and watered while we discussed it.
I really didn't take you to be one of those who bought into the most extreme scare stories. Besides, Mr Grab was talking about The Deal, not No Deal.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
Condolences - a tough day for you, and it does put almost all of our political discussions into perspective. As the old song goes "Enjoy yourself - Its later than you think!"
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....
The Gov't needs to pass an amendment to the timetabling program (Like Grieve did) to pull/delay the vote. Seeing as that could well be defeated by a bigger margin than the vote itself might be (Surely there is a will in parliament to get on with things amongst non payroll supporters of the vote) it is a non starter. They might want to pull the vote, but there is no way they can do so.
Just checking, the only person who can filibuster a programmed vote is the goverment minister doing the wrap-up.
Which is to say, Gove.
I don't see Gove filibustering the vote, he wants this ballache over as much as anyone.
A (former ?) Tory who interviewed this morning was strongly of the opinion that the vote would be pulled if a large defeat looked inevitable - and it is clear the whips have been very active rechecking numbers over the last few days.
And the government can do so right at the last moment.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
Very sorry to hear your news Big_G.
Regarding kindness and consideration, you set the standard and an example for the rest of us.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.
Is that a recent change? I’ve got a Smeg range cooker (gas hob) which I guess is 10 years old and that works fine even when unplugged. The oven’s electric so that slightly less so.
I am going out now but I would just like to say a heartfelt thank you to all the posters who have offered such kind words on the news of the passing of my dear business partner of 40 years early this morning
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
The loss of a friend and close colleague always hurts. Every sympathy.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
LOL
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves
Next decade? next half century more likely....
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.
Ahem and the winter of discontent - when't the half century anniversary of that? Not far off.
Think the half century of that will be 2028/9. Are you trying to make me feel old(er)?
Ah sorry yes when I added it up we are still a little way off. When was the three day week? '73?
About then. I remember coming home from school to a delicious salad that my mum had prepared because of the power cuts. Then my brother pointed out we had a gas cooker. Happy days.
Wouldn't work these days unfortunately. Our gas cooker was a lifesaver during the power cuts in the 70s but today they are all fitted with electronic switches to turn off the gas if there is no power. Basically no electricity no gas.
Is that a recent change? I’ve got a Smeg range cooker (gas hob) which I guess is 10 years old and that works fine even when unplugged. The oven’s electric so that slightly less so.
These days there is always the BBQ for an emergency.
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign". 2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them. 3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
As I have said often on here before, if you think there will be any peace at all after a reversal of the Leave vote then you really are deluded. At the very least you will see a massive increase in support for extremist groups and a collapse in faith in the basic democratic process. You will not at all like the country you will have helped to create.
That country has been wholly created by nihilists like you. And like all good leavers you call on violence and blame somebody else.
I don't think Richard has ever called for there to be violence instead he has merely stated his believe that there would be violence....
Mr. 86, that's a staggering stat. Presumably they're pulled over for a reason rather than randomly, but it's still high. I wonder if banned substances include somewhat mundane things that people took without realising they contravened such regulations.
Comments
Its a view
I agree, though, that remain would lead to something of a realignment in UK politics, which would likely be no bad thing.
https://twitter.com/GaryRumbell/status/1072034674808115200
I've been listening to the wrong people, clearly!
Under the guise of MPs cannot allow an economic disaster they will call a halt to this shambles .
The UK economy given today’s economic data is about to hit the rocks . The betrayal screams of some Leave voters will be drowned out by the large majority of the public who will want to stop Brexit.
It does not take much to acquire the knowledge and materials to carry out terrorist style activities. It might all start out a bit ‘four lions’ but these youngsters were radicalised by what they saw as a massive injustice and grievance in lands thousands of miles away.
Surely someone has to talk her down.
If only he had choreographed it using ranked choice.
I hope some Tory leaver with enough brains is going to come out and suggest this soon.
Puts Brexit into context. We all need to be kinder to each other
The economy grew by 0.4% in the three months to October, slower than the 0.6% in the three months to September.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46505692
In the same way we have Schrodinger's Cat, we have May's Can.
Mr. NorthWales, my condolences.
I think the EU continues to want us in rather than out. That said, if I was the EU and we were going to play the hokey-cokey with A50 I might sooner rather than later tell us to get to Falkirk rather than have to wake up each morning wondering whether the UK had invoked or not. That's no way to run an association of independent sovereign nations.
https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1071501808168783872
You are always kind. The rest of us could do with living up to your standards more often.
It doesn't help (again) that the EZ is really struggling to avoid a recession at the moment. Looking at it slightly longer term we seem to be consuming slightly less and investing (construction) slightly more. Small steps etc.
Further proof
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071759505791307776?s=21
Even now, the remain majority in Parliament is going to try to remain using a referendum to offer wafer-thin democratic cover, but the more obnoxious leavers are in the next few days, the less willing remainia will be to be conciliatory.
Push remainers too hard and Parliament will pivot to hard-remain-no-2nd-ref and leavers will be able to repent at their leisure.
My condolences to Big G.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/10/brexit-divides-tensions-political-vote
It may well alter the balance in the Conservative Party by changing the requirements that the PCP see as essential for the post May leader, and hence the candidates that are presented to the membership (if a vote is offered to the membership).
Then there is the future of Brexit (RIP) 2016 - 2019 and a (RIP) peoples vote.
On the assumption that Mays deal is annihilated by Parliament and both the Speaker and Parliament think it should be involved in the process, I do not see how Parliament can then take control and offer a deal it refuses by a substantial majority to the people.
Parliament will have to choose between remain and no deal. They can't witter on about taking control through he amendments they table and then abrogate responsibility for the final decision to the people, unless they want to endure lasting ridicule.
If they do grow a pair and make a final choice (which would I assume be remain) then we are back to early June 2016. Just our political parties are fractured. We can then remain. After that, who knows!
Seeing as that could well be defeated by a bigger margin than the vote itself might be (Surely there is a will in parliament to get on with things amongst non payroll supporters of the vote) it is a non starter. They might want to pull the vote, but there is no way they can do so.
"We, the undersigned, do enter in to a process of ever closer wanting a nice cup of tea and a sit down."
But my experience at the Exel People's Vote rally yesterday afternoon has changed my behaviour. I was particularly impressed by Caroline Lucas's speech. I do think the Remain campaign will not be abusive and I hope the levels of abuse die down. I'll try to play my part in that.
No wonder the EU countries are up shit creek. The rest of the world is laughing at them.
Which is to say, Gove.
I don't see Gove filibustering the vote, he wants this ballache over as much as anyone.
Why would a prime minister want to be beaten in such an important vote by 50 to 100.
Surely there is some strategic planning.
Personally I hope May wins the vote.
However just ploughing on regardless seems reckless.
I don't criticise him for either of those actions but to try and claim they were caused by anyone other than himself is rather ridiculous.
It is a credit to this forum for the quality of discussion and the wider kindness of so many
https://twitter.com/JasonGroves1/status/1072076629478916096
All the best.
Except....1/8th vs 7/16ths of exports.
I think the only place that barrel is pointing is at our foot, not theirs.
https://twitter.com/davidallengreen/status/1072063990921129984
And the government can do so right at the last moment.
Gove himself appears to have no such intentions:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/10/commons-brexit-deal-vote-definitely-go-ahead-michael-gove
Regarding kindness and consideration, you set the standard and an example for the rest of us.
https://tinyurl.com/ydgpo9hj
More than half of motorists screened during a summer crackdown on drug-driving failed roadside tests, figures have shown.
An average of 37 drivers a day were caught driving under the influence of banned substances, or 57% of the 1,962 motorists tested.
I knew drug driving was a big issue, I just didn't realise how big.
Just like Enoch Powell.