You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side.
Tainted with lies and fear.
Lies like the Treasury forecast and punishment budget you mean. Project Fear was a Remain ploy not a Leave one.
Being wrong is not the same as lying.
I suspect that the Treasury* believed there would be an immediate recession in the event of Brexit.
* Not that everyone in the Treasury would think that way, but groupthink is powerful.
It was either complete incompetence or basing their forecasts upon their own biased groupthink or doing what George Osborne wanted.
Whichever it was there should have been a proper independent investigation into Treasury forecasting and almost certainly a mass sacking of people involved.
Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this: (1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People. (2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.
Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.
We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last week
Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUP
Is that the deal had been crafted almost entirely to meet the concerns driving the leave vote (whilst not crashing the economy). If this was always where we were going to end up a very different deal would have been put together (one Richard Tyndall would have strongly approved of!)
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Your bitterness is sad.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
IMHO the civil service will get entirely new directions from an entirely new PM in the event of the 11 December vote going down.
Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this: (1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People. (2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.
Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.
I was thinking the referendum plan(s) outlined by Morris_Dancer fitted the bill reasonably well.
May's deal would be safer, but can enough MPs swallow their bile and vote for it now?
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUP
“Evidently, the BBC wanted to produce a slightly separate version which would accord with its editorial guidelines. ” that’s a series of code words if I’ve ever seen them.
Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this: (1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People. (2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.
Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.
I was thinking the referendum plan(s) outlined by Morris_Dancer fitted the bill reasonably well.
May's deal would be safer, but can enough MPs swallow their bile and vote for it now?
No. They either hate it so much they cannot roll back from that, don't believe voting it down means the deal is dead and think it will be significantly improved, or have wanted to remain all along. You think extremists like Rees Mogg and Grieve are about to change position? They're fanatics of different types.
England and Scotland will be seperate régions administratives of a federal Europe soon enough. That'll do for all nats except those on the malc end of the spectrum.
Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUP
Have you been looking at polls again?
You dare question HYUFD, our very own Oracle of Delphi?
passes revolver and glass of whiskey, gives significant look at study door
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Morning Malc - I have been consistent in complimenting Nicola and again she has proved how consummate a statesperson she is. Credit where it is due but then I have a close relationship with all things Scot
We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last week
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.
We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last week
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Your bitterness is sad.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we live in a parliamentary democracy and they can legally keep us in if they want, manifesto commitments are not binding. We can whine about that and I think many remain mps have been pretty shameless as they never had any intention of us leaving, but if they insist it is an option we must deal with that.
And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining.
After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last week
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.
Didn’t you vote for Brexit?
Surely you should be blaming yourself?
Yeah, it is my fault. I keep voting for numpties. You know, deep down, it's your man crushes Cameron and Osborne who have got us here. I'm sure you're very proud.
Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.
Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.
Who cares? Corby will give me a 10% pay rise, probably force TSE to pay for it. Winner!
They don't want brexit at any cost. Which I can respect as principled. But it does mean they can stop crying when they dont get it at all since they chose to reject what was in offer. Sometimes you don't get your preferred meal. Some of us were prepared to eat the same thing.
I fear we'll get No Deal vs Remain as the referendum choice.
Very amusing prospect. Positively Socratic in its seeming simplicity and yet...no deal, so let's imagine the thousands of pages of exemptions and "well we obviously didn't mean that"s in the annexes.
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Your bitterness is sad.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola Sturgeon
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we live in a parliamentary democracy and they can legally keep us in if they want, manifesto commitments are not binding. We can whine about that and I think many remain mps have been pretty shameless as they never had any intention of us leaving, but if they insist it is an option we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.
Thank you Scottish government for bringing this case to the ECJ . The UK can stay in on the same terms , rebate and other opt outs don’t change .
It is a big moment and confirms that Nicola Sturgeon is a consummate politician
The one and only time in the last 4 years that Gordy's imprecation has actually come to pass.
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.
We don’t need another Scottish PM after the chaos Brown caused when he was PM
??
What did his being Scottish have to do with it? As a union supporter I see no reason someone from any part of the country should not be pm. Difficult for someone in NI due to the local politics though.
But I suspect a GOP Senate will never vote to convict Trump.
Doesn’t matter. He’ll go to jail after he leaves office.
Piers Morgan?
Now that would be icing on the cake. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no hint of Morgan straying around of the bounds of the law since his brush with insider trading.
Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.
Who cares? Corby will give me a 10% pay rise, probably force TSE to pay for it. Winner!
It'll go on council tax, so you will be part paying for your own pay rise.. Car parking charges will rise, in fact all council service cost will rise to pay for it
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Your bitterness is sad.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction
Your arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.
You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side. We had to wait 40 years for a referendum. You want a second after just 2. We should honour the first referendum before having a second.
There speaks a man who has never sent his food back at the restaurant when it wasn't up to scratch/what he ordered...
A highly significant development this morning with the ECJ seemingly allowing any country to unilaterally revoke an A50 declaration. Now, I'm not a lawyer or solicitor but I presume that means the revocation has to take place within the two year period when the A50 is in effect (subject to any mutually agreed extension).
In other words, we can unilaterally revoke A50 before 29/3/19 and remain members of the EU under the terms which existed on 23/6/16.
Ok, no problem there but who would then initiate such a revocation? If "Brexit means Brexit" as someone once said, it's hard to see the Government seeking to initiate revocation even if the alternative was leaving without a Deal. They could argue the likely economic disruption (for which said Government had done no contingency planning) forces them to revoke A50 but there would be a political price to pay.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
The ECJ would make a GE a little clearer if we were to hold one before March as parties could stand clearly advocating revocation of A50 under the ECJ ruling and if said parties won a majority in Parliament that mandate would, I'd argue, supercede the mandate of 23/6/16 to leave the EU.
What this morning has done has clarified the second option if the Deal falls tomorrow - we can leave without a Deal and see what happens (which I maintain will be far less severe than the apocalyptic scenarios of Carney) or we can unilaterally revoke if there is a majority in Parliament so to do.
For the Conservatives, the dilemma will be clear - risk the economic consequences of No Deal while carrying out the mandate of 23/6/16 or preserve the economy from harm (though a global slowdown may be happening anyway) but risk the political price of not accepting the mandate in the form of the sense of betrayal from the voters.
You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side. We had to wait 40 years for a referendum. You want a second after just 2. We should honour the first referendum before having a second.
There speaks a man who has never sent his food back at the restaurant when it wasn't up to scratch/what he ordered...
We'd be re-running general elections every year on that basis
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola Sturgeon
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
.
Your bitterness is sad.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction
Your arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
But I suspect a GOP Senate will never vote to convict Trump.
Doesn’t matter. He’ll go to jail after he leaves office.
Piers Morgan?
Now that would be icing on the cake. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no hint of Morgan straying around of the bounds of the law since his brush with insider trading.
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.
I agree. That statement "in accordance with its constitutional requirements" has ambiguity written all over it . As a large part of our "constitution" is based on precedent it will be an interesting one. Any lawyers wish to comment?
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple tomay remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
Leavers have been given full view of the EU’s negotiating strategy and red lines. They have been handed a golden opportunity to go away and do some proper thinking on how to counter them. Obviously, they won’t do that.
A highly significant development this morning with the ECJ seemingly allowing any country to unilaterally revoke an A50 declaration. Now, I'm not a lawyer or solicitor but I presume that means the revocation has to take place within the two year period when the A50 is in effect (subject to any mutually agreed extension).
In other words, we can unilaterally revoke A50 before 29/3/19 and remain members of the EU under the terms which existed on 23/6/16.
Ok, no problem there but who would then initiate such a revocation? If "Brexit means Brexit" as someone once said, it's hard to see the Government seeking to initiate revocation even if the alternative was leaving without a Deal. They could argue the likely economic disruption (for which said Government had done no contingency planning) forces them to revoke A50 but there would be a political price to pay.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
The ECJ would make a GE a little clearer if we were to hold one before March as parties could stand clearly advocating revocation of A50 under the ECJ ruling and if said parties won a majority in Parliament that mandate would, I'd argue, supercede the mandate of 23/6/16 to leave the EU.
What this morning has done has clarified the second option if the Deal falls tomorrow - we can leave without a Deal and see what happens (which I maintain will be far less severe than the apocalyptic scenarios of Carney) or we can unilaterally revoke if there is a majority in Parliament so to do.
For the Conservatives, the dilemma will be clear - risk the economic consequences of No Deal while carrying out the mandate of 23/6/16 or preserve the economy from harm (though a global slowdown may be happening anyway) but risk the political price of not accepting the mandate in the form of the sense of betrayal from the voters.
I agree, a GE mandate with a specific commitment to revoke article 50 does trump the referendum. You’re not going to get that from the current labour leadership.
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
I understand the politics of wanting to support a Deal brought back by a Conservative Prime Minister but said Deal's inadequacies have been well and truly exposed. Perhaps the problem is the language which leaves it open to interpretation or misinterpretation depending on your objectivity (or more accurately lack of it).
It could be the objections to the Deal are motivated wholly by politics but then so could support for the Deal as well.
The choices as of this morning are leaving without a Deal (for which the planning and preparation has been wholly inadequate) or revoking A50. Both carry a political price - which do you want to pay?
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last week
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.
You were hardly a committed Tory anyway. As the polling shows if Corbyn does get in it will likely be without a majority, propped up by the SNP and with the Tories largest party and the Tories could certainly have comfortable poll leads within a few months.
Remember too the Tories have only been out of power for more than 6 years once in the last century from 1997 to 2010 and Blair had double digit leads before he came to office, far from where Corbyn is now. On Brexit it was of course the British people themselves who narrowly voted to Leave the EU and Corbyn's policy on Brexit is little different to May's bar replacing a temporary Customs Union with a permanent one
Your bitterness is sad. Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepteTM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businessesYour no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternativeMay’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad. If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reactionYour arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola Sturgeon
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.
I agree. That statement "in accordance with its constitutional requirements" has ambiguity written all over it . As a large part of our "constitution" is based on precedent it will be an interesting one. Any lawyers wish to comment?
"In accordance with its constitutional requirements" is the CJEU recognisign that it does not have jurisdiction to rule on whether, as a matter of UK law, Article 50 can be revoked by the government, by parliamentary act and/or referendum. The decision is limited to EU law.
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
Out of interest when was the last time this happened or anyone wanted it to happen? I would think the Thatcher Union reforms, which have endured governments of both colours since introduction.
I put this down as a theoretical fear, the removal of rights by a UK government is rare and unlikely. It isn't going to get any easier to sack you, stop you striking, reduce your pay or holiday entitlement under any likely government. (Although I think paternity leave is getting close to needing adjustment in favour of the employer).
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
You cannot see beyond no deal.
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
No deal is better than a bad deal.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Isn't there another dimension to the question of the referendum wording?
To hold a referendum now I presume we need an extension of the deadline. Unlike revocation, that will still require unanimous agreement of the other member countries. Isn't it likely that before agreeing, they (or at least one of them) will want to ensure that the referendum will not result in "No Deal"?
Your bitterness is sad. Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepteTM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businessesYour no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad. If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reactionYour arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks
I am not dictating to you who should and should not support. Merely expressing my difference of opinion. As for growing up - try practicing what you preach.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
I understand the politics of wanting to support a Deal brought back by a Conservative Prime Minister but said Deal's inadequacies have been well and truly exposed. Perhaps the problem is the language which leaves it open to interpretation or misinterpretation depending on your objectivity (or more accurately lack of it).
It could be the objections to the Deal are motivated wholly by politics but then so could support for the Deal as well.
The choices as of this morning are leaving without a Deal (for which the planning and preparation has been wholly inadequate) or revoking A50. Both carry a political price - which do you want to pay?
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
Absolutely agree. Listening to Gove, who tbf is supporting The Deal, nevertheless unequivocally denounce this or that element (CJEU, etc) as "not Brexit not what the people voted for", is vomit-inducing.
They were so full of what it should be they didn't bother paying attention to what it could be.
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
Antiquarian Action!
I can see the banner now.
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politics
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn in
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
There is no new party - the oldest party will benefit the most from any backsliding on Brexit - the stay at home party.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promised
chortle
ah yes the fk off and join UKIP strategy which worked so well when people did.
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
Antiquarian Action!
I can see the banner now.
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
Comments
Whichever it was there should have been a proper independent investigation into Treasury forecasting and almost certainly a mass sacking of people involved.
Turns out we do hold all the aces.
If Brexit is looking like a shit show we can revoke Article 50
What an ace.
Never again will we have a referendum that gives us an option that parliament doesn’t want.
https://twitter.com/greenslader/status/1072046667610943489?s=21
1) remain vs leave
2) deal vs no deal
Is that the deal had been crafted almost entirely to meet the concerns driving the leave vote (whilst not crashing the economy). If this was always where we were going to end up a very different deal would have been put together (one Richard Tyndall would have strongly approved of!)
Thank you Nicola Sturgeon.
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May's deal would be safer, but can enough MPs swallow their bile and vote for it now?
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
1)Parliament can order PM to revoke
or
2) PM can only revoke with approval of parliament
Quite an important difference there I think.
passes revolver and glass of whiskey, gives significant look at study door
Corbyn has grown as a leader, more cynical and flexible. Hopefully it is enough.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Of course it can empower an executive that will do it's bidding but that's a big step.....
Surely you should be blaming yourself?
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining.
After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.
https://twitter.com/guy_stallard/status/1072049685563609089?s=21
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction
Both might be wrong but there we are.
What did his being Scottish have to do with it? As a union supporter I see no reason someone from any part of the country should not be pm. Difficult for someone in NI due to the local politics though.
What’s that stench? Oh yep, it’s double standards
A highly significant development this morning with the ECJ seemingly allowing any country to unilaterally revoke an A50 declaration. Now, I'm not a lawyer or solicitor but I presume that means the revocation has to take place within the two year period when the A50 is in effect (subject to any mutually agreed extension).
In other words, we can unilaterally revoke A50 before 29/3/19 and remain members of the EU under the terms which existed on 23/6/16.
Ok, no problem there but who would then initiate such a revocation? If "Brexit means Brexit" as someone once said, it's hard to see the Government seeking to initiate revocation even if the alternative was leaving without a Deal. They could argue the likely economic disruption (for which said Government had done no contingency planning) forces them to revoke A50 but there would be a political price to pay.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
The ECJ would make a GE a little clearer if we were to hold one before March as parties could stand clearly advocating revocation of A50 under the ECJ ruling and if said parties won a majority in Parliament that mandate would, I'd argue, supercede the mandate of 23/6/16 to leave the EU.
What this morning has done has clarified the second option if the Deal falls tomorrow - we can leave without a Deal and see what happens (which I maintain will be far less severe than the apocalyptic scenarios of Carney) or we can unilaterally revoke if there is a majority in Parliament so to do.
For the Conservatives, the dilemma will be clear - risk the economic consequences of No Deal while carrying out the mandate of 23/6/16 or preserve the economy from harm (though a global slowdown may be happening anyway) but risk the political price of not accepting the mandate in the form of the sense of betrayal from the voters.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
For now, no Brexit is the only sane choice left.
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
Just watch the inward investment dry up, the capital flee, the unemployment soar, the house prices crash and burn.
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
It could be the objections to the Deal are motivated wholly by politics but then so could support for the Deal as well.
The choices as of this morning are leaving without a Deal (for which the planning and preparation has been wholly inadequate) or revoking A50. Both carry a political price - which do you want to pay?
I can see the banner now.
Remember too the Tories have only been out of power for more than 6 years once in the last century from 1997 to 2010 and Blair had double digit leads before he came to office, far from where Corbyn is now. On Brexit it was of course the British people themselves who narrowly voted to Leave the EU and Corbyn's policy on Brexit is little different to May's bar replacing a temporary Customs Union with a permanent one
You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
I would think the Thatcher Union reforms, which have endured governments of both colours since introduction.
I put this down as a theoretical fear, the removal of rights by a UK government is rare and unlikely. It isn't going to get any easier to sack you, stop you striking, reduce your pay or holiday entitlement under any likely government. (Although I think paternity leave is getting close to needing adjustment in favour of the employer).
To hold a referendum now I presume we need an extension of the deadline. Unlike revocation, that will still require unanimous agreement of the other member countries. Isn't it likely that before agreeing, they (or at least one of them) will want to ensure that the referendum will not result in "No Deal"?
You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks
I am not dictating to you who should and should not support. Merely expressing my difference of opinion. As for growing up - try practicing what you preach.
They were so full of what it should be they didn't bother paying attention to what it could be.
ah yes the fk off and join UKIP strategy which worked so well when people did.
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.