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Shame the pm went out of her way to fuck it all up then.HYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Is she a genius remainer or just utterly incompetent? - history will have to decide on that one.
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I suspect in a Remain and Corbyn scenario the sector worst hit will be the City.MarqueeMark said:
Remaining, then with Jeremy Corbyn as PM, will test those worst case scenarios of No Deal Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
If we end up Remaining the whole country is toast.twistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Just watch the inward investment dry up, the capital flee, the unemployment soar, the house prices crash and burn.0 -
So it would just be 2 years of no deal preparation?FF43 said:
The EU doesn't need to negotiate another WA on the second invocationrcs1000 said:
Well, that solves the requirement for unanimity for extending the deadline.TheScreamingEagles said:
Revocation of A50 on Tuesday... submission of A50 on Wednesday...0 -
So be it.Alanbrooke said:
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
Let No Dealers join the Tommy Robinson party.
They’ll be happier there.
A brilliant Tory leader won the Tories their only majority in the last quarter of a century when UKIP polled near 15%.0 -
Insert as the first word of the sentence:Charles said:
Parliament wouldn’t authorise resubmissionrcs1000 said:
Well, that solves the requirement for unanimity for extending the deadline.TheScreamingEagles said:
Revocation of A50 on Tuesday... submission of A50 on Wednesday...
This0 -
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May will be out by Friday.El_Capitano said:Quick thought:
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.
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That would be interfering in our politics and as we know the EU would never do that.Chris said:
Isn't there another dimension to the question of the referendum wording?AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
To hold a referendum now I presume we need an extension of the deadline. Unlike revocation, that will still require unanimous agreement of the other member countries. Isn't it likely that before agreeing, they (or at least one of them) will want to ensure that the referendum will not result in "No Deal"?0 -
2015: UKIP polled 12.9% = Tory majorityAlanbrooke said:
chortleHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
ah yes the fk off and join UKIP strategy which worked so well when people did.
2017: UKIP polled 1.8% = Tories lose their majority0 -
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?0 -
The number of malcontents sufficiently agitated by #brexitbetrayed to insurrect over it and those sufficiently sound of limb to be capable of it isn't significant.TGOHF said:What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
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Don't worry those thick xenophobes will soon forget.TGOHF said:What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
Of course the tory party will take a mauling in the next election but hey they can rebuild in - what was it 15 years last time?0 -
TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
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Dont be silly it wont be the TR party. It will be a newer wider spread party which will play on pitting the pissed off provinces against the metropolitans.TheScreamingEagles said:
So be it.Alanbrooke said:
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
Let No Dealers join the Tommy Robinson party.
They’ll be happier there.
A brilliant Tory leader won the Tories their only majority in the last quarter of a century when UKIP polled near 15%.
Youre simply going back to that they have nowhere else to go rubbish which caused the problem in the first place. A tory party which cant get voters on board is heading to obscurity.0 -
Most of us pissed off Tories will have nothing to do with UKIP or Farage's new train set.TheScreamingEagles said:
So be it.Alanbrooke said:
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
Let No Dealers join the Tommy Robinson party.
They’ll be happier there.
A brilliant Tory leader won the Tories their only majority in the last quarter of a century when UKIP polled near 15%.
Most of us will quietly join the FUP.0 -
It might; bearing in mind "Musn't Grumble" was a contender for national motto a few years ago.Alanbrooke said:
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
If we remain, it would have to be undertaken within a political structure. Referendum as promised in a manifesto, for example. Or some other means (I am far from a constitutional expert).
In that context the heat would be taken out of the decision although there's no doubt millions of people would be livid. But just like the 2016 referendum, there is very little coherent argument or umbrage to be taken against a democratic mandate delivered by direct democracy.0 -
The government's position on the Wightman case was that the court should not answer the question because it was purely hypothetical. It was hypothetical because the government had no intention of seeking to reverse Art 50.
For the present government that, I think, remains the position. I cannot see May or pretty much anyone currently in Cabinet seeking to revoke Article 50 before the deadline although they may seek to extend the time limit. The question that really arises this morning is whether there is a way that the remainer majority in Parliament can force them to.
At the moment May's position is back her deal or accept a no deal exit which remains the default position under current legislation. Her binary choice is certainly weakened by this judgment but revoking article 50 would require legislation and it is still not clear to me where this legislation could possibly come from.0 -
Rather illogical there. Given that the Deal does remove us from basically all the elements Gove was denouncing (with the exception of the Customs Union) surely what 'it should be' and 'what it could be' have indeed turned out to be the same. As shown by the fact Gove is supporting the deal.TOPPING said:
Absolutely agree. Listening to Gove, who tbf is supporting The Deal, nevertheless unequivocally denounce this or that element (CJEU, etc) as "not Brexit not what the people voted for", is vomit-inducing.AlastairMeeks said:You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
They were so full of what it should be they didn't bother paying attention to what it could be.0 -
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?0 -
If a large number of the hard Brexiteers vote UKIP etc in protest at the next election (which I can believe); ironically the more moderate the Tory next leader, the higher the probability of them probably winning a GE by (re)capturing the centre ground (versus the extremes of Corbyn and hard right). Not sure that will happen though....!AmpfieldAndy said:
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn inHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
If we Remain I will certainly be out campaigning for Corbyn. Under those circumstances the Tory party deserves to be crushed. I am not predicting it will be, just saying I will do my bit to try and make sure it is.TheScreamingEagles said:
So be it.Alanbrooke said:
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
Let No Dealers join the Tommy Robinson party.
They’ll be happier there.
A brilliant Tory leader won the Tories their only majority in the last quarter of a century when UKIP polled near 15%.0 -
It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
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Well yes as I said credit to him as he is supporting the deal but he couldn't help himself opine on what Brexit "is". Whereas the one thing we have all learned these past two years and can all agree on is that Brexit "is" nothing definable.Richard_Tyndall said:
Rather illogical there. Given that the Deal does remove us from basically all the elements Gove was denouncing (with the exception of the Customs Union) surely what 'it should be' and 'what it could be' have indeed turned out to be the same. As shown by the fact Gove is supporting the deal.TOPPING said:
Absolutely agree. Listening to Gove, who tbf is supporting The Deal, nevertheless unequivocally denounce this or that element (CJEU, etc) as "not Brexit not what the people voted for", is vomit-inducing.AlastairMeeks said:You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
They were so full of what it should be they didn't bother paying attention to what it could be.0 -
Does Article 50 take two years to leave or is that the maximum time it can take?
Might it be possible to prepare for no deal before even triggering it and then leave immediately on revocation?0 -
I really don't like remain on current terms. We are half in half out, in the second tier, a non Euro difficult and awkward squad nation. A position that is designed to encourage friction and divergent requirements.MarqueeMark said:
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
The EU needs commitment and common purpose in the membership. That means to forge really good and beneficial relationships in means in, to paraphrase Mrs May, so you have to go for Euro and Schengen. The halfway house will only propagate the discontent of the past few years.
Either completely on or completely out are the only two sensible and positions that are workable in the long term, and for this it is a long term choice.0 -
Really? As an example, Plan B Norway + advocate Amber Rudd is not going to be gracing the green benches after the next election.tottenhamWC said:
If a large number of the hard Brexiteers vote UKIP etc in protest at the next election (which I can believe); ironically the more moderate the Tory next leader, the higher the probability of them probably winning a GE by (re)capturing the centre ground (versus the extremes of Corbyn and hard right). Not sure that will happen though....!AmpfieldAndy said:
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn inHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=210 -
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.0 -
I simply don't think that's the case. The apparent metamorphosis of UKIP into something uglier and nastier than we've seen before looks to me like the start of something we haven't seen before in British politics, certainly not in my memory.Dura_Ace said:
The number of malcontents sufficiently agitated by #brexitbetrayed to insurrect over it and those sufficiently sound of limb to be capable of it isn't significant.TGOHF said:What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
Look at how the Gilets Jaunes came out of absolutely nowhere. A couple of months ago, did anyone think France would be on fire? People keep on saying that we don't do riots, etc, in the UK. What they fail to understand is that's because we have an incredibly strong - unparalleled in fact - tradition of democracy.
The referendum was our safety valve. Giving people a voice who had been ignored for decades. Our revolutions have always been achieved through the ballot box rather than direct action. But shut off that safety valve and anything could happen. I'm not saying it will, but I am saying we will be in completely uncharted territory and nobody can be sure what will happen. I'm incredibly fearful of what's to come if we walk away from the political norms that safeguard our civil society.0 -
as 2017 showed past performance is no guide to the futureTheScreamingEagles said:
2015: UKIP polled 12.9% = Tory majorityAlanbrooke said:
chortleHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
ah yes the fk off and join UKIP strategy which worked so well when people did.
2017: UKIP polled 1.8% = Tories lose their majority0 -
Technically, maybe. Politically, no.Xenon said:Does Article 50 take two years to leave or is that the maximum time it can take?
Might it be possible to prepare for no deal before even triggering it and then leave immediately on revocation?
Day 1 No deal Preparations. Concrete over Kent.
Day 2. Riots.0 -
I like the diversity of the crowd. There are blokes, geezers, lads and gents there.TheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=210 -
kle4 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.AmpfieldAndy said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.kle4 said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.AmpfieldAndy said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.kle4 said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.AmpfieldAndy said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.AmpfieldAndy said:
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generationBig_G_NorthWales said:t certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
I'd assume that you have to give a further two years notice. You'd be starting the process afresh.Xenon said:Does Article 50 take two years to leave or is that the maximum time it can take?
Might it be possible to prepare for no deal before even triggering it and then leave immediately on revocation?
But as were weren't leaving the interim phase until 2022 anyway, we could issue again in 2020 and be in no different a place on timing to May's Deal. Just, with some planning next time.0 -
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.Concanvasser said:It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.0 -
No, one Leaver is an absolute c***.TheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
The rest of us Leavers have already pointed out that his gallows design would never have taken the required weight.0 -
Brexit is like a threesome.another_richard said:
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.0 -
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.0 -
I think they want it enough, some of them anyway. But some lacked the ability and others were pulling in different directions.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
You should try it with two women not two blokes next time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexit is like a threesome.another_richard said:
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.0 -
The guy who made it said almost verbatim "May is a traitor, this is what traitors get"Alanbrooke said:
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.0 -
So Leavers are like the French.Alanbrooke said:
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.
You may have just come with the best and unimpeachable argument to end Brexit.0 -
Yes, they seriously underestimate how difficult it could prove because they only care about keeping us in at all costs. But that seems to be the next challenge to he faced, since leave is too divided to confirm something.TGOHF said:What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.0 -
Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.0 -
Professor smartarse is not helping this debate.Scott_P said:0 -
Looks like Micky Fab will be putting in that letter to the '22 after all then....TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Can’t see many Tory Leavers voting for an Islamaphobic party. I think it more likely the DNV’s will show a marked upturn.tottenhamWC said:
If a large number of the hard Brexiteers vote UKIP etc in protest at the next election (which I can believe); ironically the more moderate the Tory next leader, the higher the probability of them probably winning a GE by (re)capturing the centre ground (versus the extremes of Corbyn and hard right). Not sure that will happen though....!AmpfieldAndy said:
Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn inHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
As a good Muslim boy I’ve never tried a spit roast.TGOHF said:
You should try it with two women not two blokes next time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexit is like a threesome.another_richard said:
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.0 -
There are currently some significant parallels between the UK and France atm. we are simply catching them up on political expressionTheScreamingEagles said:
So Leavers are like the French.Alanbrooke said:
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.
You may have just come with the best and unimpeachable argument to end Brexit.0 -
It aided both sides in that case to argue theScott_P said:
Irrevocability. Even then there was a para noting it might not be the case.
0 -
If that's your experience of a threesome - then you weren't doing it right.....TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexit is like a threesome.another_richard said:
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.0 -
Whether it needs it or not, I can't see a revocation of Article 50 taking place without one.Charles said:
I think it will need primary legislationalex. said:On revoking article 50 key question is whether
1)Parliament can order PM to revoke
or
2) PM can only revoke with approval of parliament
Quite an important difference there I think.0 -
Well the best solution out of this mess seems to be to cancel Article 50 and then trigger it again making it clear we are preparing for a minimal deal with the EU only.MarqueeMark said:
I'd assume that you have to give a further two years notice. You'd be starting the process afresh.Xenon said:Does Article 50 take two years to leave or is that the maximum time it can take?
Might it be possible to prepare for no deal before even triggering it and then leave immediately on revocation?
But as were weren't leaving the interim phase until 2022 anyway, we could issue again in 2020 and be in no different a place on timing to May's Deal. Just, with some planning next time.
At least now we know that the current deal with the EU is not good enough for us and we can go from there.0 -
It would have made more sense but labour have very successfully held onto to them. And since I labour will end up backing remain despite Corbyn it will work out for them in the end.AmpfieldAndy said:
Remain voters should have voted LibDemkle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generationAmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola SturgeonTheScreamingEagles said:
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
Speaking on behalf of the PB editorial team and everyone below the line, we need more threads by you.Alanbrooke said:
There are currently some significant parallels between the UK and France atm. we are simply catching them up on political expressionTheScreamingEagles said:
So Leavers are like the French.Alanbrooke said:
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.
You may have just come with the best and unimpeachable argument to end Brexit.0 -
I don't think he was ever in jeopardy of criminal charges (?) - though Leveson did have some very uncomplimentary things to say about him.MarqueeMark said:
Phone hacking?Nigelb said:
Now that would be icing on the cake. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no hint of Morgan straying around of the bounds of the law since his brush with insider trading.MarqueeMark said:
Piers Morgan?Nigelb said:
Doesn’t matter. He’ll go to jail after he leaves office.TheScreamingEagles said:Lock him up.
But I suspect a GOP Senate will never vote to convict Trump.0 -
You will get a good idea of what it's like being in the middle when we Bremain in the EU.TheScreamingEagles said:
As a good Muslim boy I’ve never tried a spit roast.TGOHF said:
You should try it with two women not two blokes next time.TheScreamingEagles said:
Brexit is like a threesome.another_richard said:
Its mystifying to me.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?
How can outsiders like us predict politics when politicians so often act illogically and / or incompetently.
A great fantasy but when you actually do it all you want to do is stop midway through and go to sleep.
0 -
The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.
0 -
I think the judgement weakens further the already weak Gov't negotiating position. If the Gov't doesn't like the WA then they can simply revoke. This will be pointed out by Barnier and co if further negotiations to obtain more concessions are now sought.0
-
I can see why leavers are keen not to allow people to change their minds but if there is a genuine majority for Remain now how is more democratic to artificially deny them that option in a second vote?AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
Your stance appears to be that having voted for an undefined Brexit 2+ years ago by a narrow 3.8% margin that we have to stick with it come hell or high water even if , as in the case of a No Deal Brexit in particular, a significant majority don't want it, and that includes many leave voters.
The problem inherent with Brexit is that a significant minority of leave voters oppose each specific Brexit option so the 3.8% majority disappears whatever you do.0 -
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.El_Capitano said:
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.Concanvasser said:It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.
0 -
I'm not sure whether I count as an ultra-Remainer but my view is that Britain's spiral down continues. Every option from here looks to be a deterioration of the position. Remaining in the EU would be as disastrous (in different ways) as leaving on any of the currently feasible methods.kle4 said:
Yes, they seriously underestimate how difficult it could prove because they only care about keeping us in at all costs. But that seems to be the next challenge to he faced, since leave is too divided to confirm something.TGOHF said:What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.0 -
Don't necessarily disagree if you conflate the two. But they would also be delighted that you (and I) might be so irritated.MarqueeMark said:
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.0 -
They think that MPs will do what their manifesto commits them to.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?0 -
Budding Brit revolutionaries need to get down to Halfords:Alanbrooke said:
There are currently some significant parallels between the UK and France atm. we are simply catching them up on political expressionTheScreamingEagles said:
So Leavers are like the French.Alanbrooke said:
dont be ridiculousTheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
its just being european. The french erected a guillotine for Macron at the weekend.
You may have just come with the best and unimpeachable argument to end Brexit.
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/cycling-clothing/jackets-gilets/force-v48-windproof-gilet?_br_psugg_q=hi+viz+jackets
0 -
The two year period can only be shortened by agreement.Xenon said:Does Article 50 take two years to leave or is that the maximum time it can take?
Might it be possible to prepare for no deal before even triggering it and then leave immediately on revocation?
On paper.
Unless the ECJ again finds that A50 says something that it doesn't.0 -
0
-
They'll have to file under "Grim Satisfaction".TOPPING said:
Don't necessarily disagree if you conflate the two. But they would also be delighted that you (and I) might be so irritated.MarqueeMark said:
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
As they fight us, foraging for roots and berries....0 -
Yes, Torys who say "F*** Business" have lost the plot, and disappeared down a nativist rabbit hole.Concanvasser said:
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.El_Capitano said:
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.Concanvasser said:It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.0 -
Nothing in the Conservative party manifesto committed MPs to risk disruption of food or medical supplies.Donny43 said:
They think that MPs will do what their manifesto commits them to.AlastairMeeks said:
Their strategy has been bizarre. Their big opportunity was December 2017. Up to that point I had been expecting no deal because Leavers had never compromised. They all went meekly then and I concluded that they would eventually accept the ultimate deal. But it turned out that they hadn't realised that they had compromised and have reverted to type since.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
They seem to have completely misunderstood the dynamics of Parliament. Do they really think that their fellow MPs are going to sit back for the next three months after a defeat of the deal and do nothing?0 -
This is the thing I still don't understand. I get details still needed to emerge, that challenging the leader is hard, etc etc. But time and again she went down one path which they said was terrible, many quit over it, yet didn't challenge her, saying she had to change course even as she said changing course was impossible. Why the Tory confrontation did not occur ages ago I do not know. Ok maybe they'd lose, but nothing need compel them to vote for the deal regardless.another_richard said:
It is curious.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
Its been clear all year what May was aiming for yet they never challenged her.
Did they think they could bounce her into doing what they wanted ?
0 -
Gosh. Rather testy on here this morning.
If we end up remaining, turnout for the next General Election could easily drop below 50%. I would also expect a 1997-style result for the Conservatives.
I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed. In the last decade we have had enough constitutional politics for the century, and we have much more important things to focus on (population ageing, lack of competitiveness etc).
No more please.0 -
The consensus on here yesterday seemed to be that the vote can only be pulled by another vote. But I do recall seeing somewhere last week that the government could talk it out by allowing the debate to overrun. Or of course it could propose a wrecking amendment to its own motion. But either of these courses of action would be almost as humiliating as going ahead with the vote and losing.Morris_Dancer said:Come on, chaps, it's a testy moment but there's no need to get nasty here (indeed, it won't change anything either way).
Someone the other day suggested cancelling the vote would itself require a vote, which wouldn't pass. Is it just in May's gift?
The endless can-kicking is ridiculous.
However, given May's usual priority, to preserve the government until next week, or at least tomorrow, I think pulling the vote at the last minute cannot be ruled out.0 -
Not sure I would want to be a worker for either Labour or the Tories next General Election in Stoke or Mansfield or Hartlepool or.....Concanvasser said:
Those who are about to be replaced rarely see it coming. The Liberals after the Great war must have been just as confident as you are about the ineptitude of the rabble who would shortly completely eclipse them.El_Capitano said:
Fortunately, our populists are historically beyond inept.Concanvasser said:It does seem like we are at one of those realignment moments which really could see the eclipse of one of more of the established political parties.
I think the worst course of action politically for all the established parties but for the Conservatives in particular would be to call another referendum.
It is such a resonant, short hand, indisputable message to the electorate that your opinions really don't count and 'our master's' only real mistake was to ask that opinion in the first place.
The form that England's populist movement is going to take is not yet clear but those who want it to come about must be desperate for the establishment to refuse Brexit in exactly the way they seem to be doing.
Leave was largely won through the offices of such as Dominic ‘Wormtongue’ Cummings, and anyone who parades under the banner of “Odyssean Project” is hardly a populist.
Things change when people change how they think. Brexit has changed how we see politics and the old alliances on which, for instance, the Conservative party has been built are collapsing before our eyes.0 -
By 2:1, Welsh voters want the deal rejected. Lots of "don't knows" though.
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-12-10/poll-finds-overwhelming-majority-in-wales-want-mps-to-reject-mays-brexit-deal/0 -
TGOHF said:
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
If Parliament overturns the result that is one thing but if the result is overturned in a second referendum I can't see your problem. Most people will accept that in light of recent events enough people changed their minds and preferred to remain on current terms.0 -
As an aside, in Chris Wickham's The Inheritance of Rome, which I'm enjoying, he notes that the divide around 750 AD is not between those invaded or not, but between the British Isles and the continent, the former abandoning (or never having, in Ireland and parts of Scotland) Roman practices and the latter essentially trying to continue them.0
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Theresa May's deal 15%AlastairMeeks said:By 2:1, Welsh voters want the deal rejected. Lots of "don't knows" though.
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-12-10/poll-finds-overwhelming-majority-in-wales-want-mps-to-reject-mays-brexit-deal/
Try to get a better deal 12%
Leave the EU with no deal 17%
No Brexit: Stay in the EU 31%
A Referendum on the deal 7%
Something else/Don't know 18%
0 -
French protesters always take it to another level,TheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=21
RIOTERS erected a mock guillotine on the ravaged streets of France
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7938050/paris-riots-day-rage-macron-guillotine-threat/0 -
Mildly surprised that Sterling seems completely unmoved by the CJEU decision this morning.0
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As with all the polling, no really clear / conflicting answers.Pulpstar said:
Theresa May's deal 15%AlastairMeeks said:By 2:1, Welsh voters want the deal rejected. Lots of "don't knows" though.
https://www.itv.com/news/wales/2018-12-10/poll-finds-overwhelming-majority-in-wales-want-mps-to-reject-mays-brexit-deal/
Try to get a better deal 12%
Leave the EU with no deal 17%
No Brexit: Stay in the EU 31%
A Referendum on the deal 7%
Something else/Don't know 18%0 -
Bit early in the day for MDMA...Barnesian said:The Remain campaign in the upcoming referendum on Mrs May's Deal versus Remain will not be the same as last time. It will differ in these respects:
1. It will be effectively and coherently led, but not publicly by a "big name". It will be a bottom up, social media, "people's campaign".
2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
3. It will not argue for the status quo in Europe but for a positive change for Britain, based on a stronger economy, addressing the problems of the poorer regions and the "left-behinds". Many who voted Leave last time want change. The Remain campaign will offer them that.
If will feel very different from the previous Remain campaign.
It won't heal the divisions. There will still be a smallish embittered group of eurosceptics as there have been for the last 40 years. But if Mrs May's Deal Campaign is also equally respectful of Remainers' concerns and ambitions, then I think it could be the start of a healing process, no matter which side wins.0 -
Activists will break into your home and leave notes criticising your extensive Jackie Collins collection.TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.0 -
Instead of paying £5 a punnet in M&S Food, you mean?MarqueeMark said:
They'll have to file under "Grim Satisfaction".TOPPING said:
Don't necessarily disagree if you conflate the two. But they would also be delighted that you (and I) might be so irritated.MarqueeMark said:
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
As they fight us, foraging for roots and berries....0 -
Next decade? next half century more likely....Scott_P said:
LOLRoyalBlue said:I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves0 -
No Tory will vote against the government or abstain in a VONC. It’s just not going to happenEl_Capitano said:Quick thought:
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.0 -
I didn't mean he wants us to remain. I know he doesn't and will fight it. But he and his are preventing us from leaving working hand in hand with remainers. He hopes and assumes we leave in a different way instead but unintended consequences are still consequences. He has been one of the biggest helpers to the remain cause.Donny43 said:
If parliament votes to overturn the referendum result, JRM will vote against.
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Sarah Wollaston?Charles said:
No Tory will vote against the government or abstain in a VONC. It’s just not going to happenEl_Capitano said:Quick thought:
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.0 -
Patriots with gallows and the Stars and Stripes. Dear me.TheScreamingEagles said:Leavers are absolute c**** aren’t they
https://twitter.com/sebastianepayne/status/1071760592141201408?s=210 -
Bollocks, just look at the Remainer response to the judgement today.Barnesian said:2. It will be positive. It will not knock the Leavers as old, stupid or racist. Rather it will acknowledge their concerns and attempt to address them.
If anything I'd expect Remain to double down on the abuse, trying to turn the referendum into a vote about morality, not politics or economics.
This country is more divided than it has been in decades, and neither leave or remain will fix that. I personally expect things to go from bad to worse.0 -
Well Labour still blame Thatcher for most of the countries woes and the Tories will continue to blame Labour for "there's no money left" for the foreseeable future.eek said:
Next decade? next half century more likely....Scott_P said:
LOLRoyalBlue said:I back May’s deal, but if it looks we’ll strongly Remain I’d be tempted to switch to help put the issue to bed.
If we leave, every problem for the next decade is going to be blamed on leaving.
Brexit will haunt all of us to our graves0
