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It was either complete incompetence or basing their forecasts upon their own biased groupthink or doing what George Osborne wanted.rcs1000 said:
Being wrong is not the same as lying.AmpfieldAndy said:
Lies like the Treasury forecast and punishment budget you mean. Project Fear was a Remain ploy not a Leave one.Gallowgate said:
Tainted with lies and fear.AmpfieldAndy said:
You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side.another_richard said:
So you want a Deal vs No Deal referendum ?Freggles said:It's on. Second referendum time.
Hands up Leavers who are frit of the electorate?
I suspect that the Treasury* believed there would be an immediate recession in the event of Brexit.
* Not that everyone in the Treasury would think that way, but groupthink is powerful.
Whichever it was there should have been a proper independent investigation into Treasury forecasting and almost certainly a mass sacking of people involved.0 -
SNP MPs save the day , who would have thought it.AlastairMeeks said:
I got that one wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:ECJ confirm we can revoke under current terms
That doesn't help Theresa May one little bit.0 -
Lol.MarqueeMark said:
"moat of our sovereignty" is a rather good typo.....HYUFD said:
So we either lose moat of our sovereignty or trash the economy and maybe lose Scotland too?Donny43 said:
Euro and Schengen v WTO Leave. Let's have a referendum and settle it.TheScreamingEagles said:Dear Leavers,
We can either Remain on current terms of rejoin soon replete with membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Your call.
A comfortable majority of the country oppose both extremes
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Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.Chris said:
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
(1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People.
(2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.0 -
I apologise to Leavers.
Turns out we do hold all the aces.
If Brexit is looking like a shit show we can revoke Article 50
What an ace.0 -
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last weektwistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
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Perhaps an apt description for Mogg BrexitMarqueeMark said:
"moat of our sovereignty" is a rather good typo.....HYUFD said:
So we either lose moat of our sovereignty or trash the economy and maybe lose Scotland too?Donny43 said:
Euro and Schengen v WTO Leave. Let's have a referendum and settle it.TheScreamingEagles said:Dear Leavers,
We can either Remain on current terms of rejoin soon replete with membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Your call.
A comfortable majority of the country oppose both extremes0 -
And hello to PM Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I wouldn't go that far but it does look like it is over for brexitTheScreamingEagles said:‘Scuse me all.
I’m off to hum and sing ‘Ode to joy’ at the top of my lungs.0 -
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TheScreamingEagles said:
Parliament won’t put ‘No Deal’ on the ballot paper.rcs1000 said:
I fear we'll get No Deal vs Remain as the referendum choice.another_richard said:
So you want a Deal vs No Deal referendum ?Freggles said:It's on. Second referendum time.
Hands up Leavers who are frit of the electorate?
Never again will we have a referendum that gives us an option that parliament doesn’t want.0 -
Politicians are always blind to the voters wishes apart from the few weeks before an election when they lie through their teeth.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation0 -
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUPDura_Ace said:Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
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Re: referendum of
1) remain vs leave
2) deal vs no deal
Is that the deal had been crafted almost entirely to meet the concerns driving the leave vote (whilst not crashing the economy). If this was always where we were going to end up a very different deal would have been put together (one Richard Tyndall would have strongly approved of!)0 -
The SNP might just have saved the Union.malcolmg said:
SNP MPs save the day , who would have thought it.AlastairMeeks said:
I got that one wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:ECJ confirm we can revoke under current terms
That doesn't help Theresa May one little bit.
Thank you Nicola Sturgeon.0 -
True, which is why a Boris v Corbyn next general election and 'unicorns for all' remains very possibleDonny43 said:
A majority of the electorate want free unicorns.HYUFD said:
So we either lose moat of our sovereignty or trash the economy and maybe lose Scotland too?Donny43 said:
Euro and Schengen v WTO Leave. Let's have a referendum and settle it.TheScreamingEagles said:Dear Leavers,
We can either Remain on current terms of rejoin soon replete with membership of the Euro and Schengen.
Your call.
A comfortable majority of the country oppose both extremes0 -
Your bitterness is sad.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative0 -
IMHO the civil service will get entirely new directions from an entirely new PM in the event of the 11 December vote going down.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?0 -
I was thinking the referendum plan(s) outlined by Morris_Dancer fitted the bill reasonably well.Donny43 said:
Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.Chris said:
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
(1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People.
(2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.
May's deal would be safer, but can enough MPs swallow their bile and vote for it now?0 -
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.0 -
Have you been looking at polls again?HYUFD said:
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUPDura_Ace said:Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
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On revoking article 50 key question is whether
1)Parliament can order PM to revoke
or
2) PM can only revoke with approval of parliament
Quite an important difference there I think.0 -
Almost as bad as Piers, would rather jump off a cliff than watch or listen to either.asjohnstone said:
Susanna Reid would be the only reason to watch the show surely?rcs1000 said:Piers Morgan is truly dreadful on Good Morning Britain
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“Evidently, the BBC wanted to produce a slightly separate version which would accord with its editorial guidelines. ” that’s a series of code words if I’ve ever seen them.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
No. They either hate it so much they cannot roll back from that, don't believe voting it down means the deal is dead and think it will be significantly improved, or have wanted to remain all along. You think extremists like Rees Mogg and Grieve are about to change position? They're fanatics of different types.Chris said:
I was thinking the referendum plan(s) outlined by Morris_Dancer fitted the bill reasonably well.Donny43 said:
Which implies they will vote for the deal, perhaps after some tweaks to the NI protocol.Chris said:
I think any self-serving MP will have two priorities in this:Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Slackbladder, that won't happen. The pro-EU types won't want to risk another chance for the Great Unwashed to stand in the way of their glorious European future.
Mr. Eagles, someone posted here, and it had the ring of truth, that two options were being considered for a second referendum should the 11 December vote be lost.
The first was May's Deal versus Remain.
The second was a two stage referendum, starting Remain versus Leave, then going to May's Deal versus No Deal, should Leave win the first stage.
How likely do you think it is, bearing in mind it would seem to be MPs generally deciding, that it'll be the former?
(1) Not to be seen to be going against The Will Of The People.
(2) To minimise the likelihood that they will share any responsibility for a "No Deal" outcome.
May's deal would be safer, but can enough MPs swallow their bile and vote for it now?
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England and Scotland will be seperate régions administratives of a federal Europe soon enough. That'll do for all nats except those on the malc end of the spectrum.TheScreamingEagles said:
The SNP might just have saved the Union.0 -
Good to see Larry the cat using an alt right meme.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
You dare question HYUFD, our very own Oracle of Delphi?Dura_Ace said:
Have you been looking at polls again?HYUFD said:
Most voters in Northern Ireland prefer the Deal to a hard border unlike the DUPDura_Ace said:Bien joué grand, Sturgeon. Although she may have inadvertently saved the England-Scotland union for now. Northern Ireland are psychologically in the departure lounge now that it's been graphically illustrated how few fucks the British establishment gives about them.
passes revolver and glass of whiskey, gives significant look at study door0 -
Yes indeed. When brexit is cancelled why would so many Intense brexit fans back them. Nigel is back too.another_richard said:
And hello to PM Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I wouldn't go that far but it does look like it is over for brexitTheScreamingEagles said:‘Scuse me all.
I’m off to hum and sing ‘Ode to joy’ at the top of my lungs.
Corbyn has grown as a leader, more cynical and flexible. Hopefully it is enough.0 -
No deal is better than a bad deal.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.0 -
Morning Malc - I have been consistent in complimenting Nicola and again she has proved how consummate a statesperson she is. Credit where it is due but then I have a close relationship with all things Scotmalcolmg said:
SNP MPs save the day , who would have thought it.AlastairMeeks said:
I got that one wrong.Big_G_NorthWales said:ECJ confirm we can revoke under current terms
That doesn't help Theresa May one little bit.0 -
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.HYUFD said:
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last weektwistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
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Parliament can't compel the executive to do anything short of being no confidenced May can legally ignore any motion instructing her to revoke.alex. said:On revoking article 50 key question is whether
1)Parliament can order PM to revoke
or
2) PM can only revoke with approval of parliament
Quite an important difference there I think.
Of course it can empower an executive that will do it's bidding but that's a big step.....0 -
Didn’t you vote for Brexit?twistedfirestopper3 said:
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.HYUFD said:
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last weektwistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Surely you should be blaming yourself?0 -
Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your bitterness is sad.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.0 -
Heretic.malcolmg said:
Almost as bad as Piers, would rather jump off a cliff than watch or listen to either.asjohnstone said:
Susanna Reid would be the only reason to watch the show surely?rcs1000 said:Piers Morgan is truly dreadful on Good Morning Britain
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Yes well we live in a parliamentary democracy and they can legally keep us in if they want, manifesto commitments are not binding. We can whine about that and I think many remain mps have been pretty shameless as they never had any intention of us leaving, but if they insist it is an option we must deal with that.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining.
After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.0 -
Yeah, it is my fault. I keep voting for numpties. You know, deep down, it's your man crushes Cameron and Osborne who have got us here. I'm sure you're very proud.TheScreamingEagles said:
Didn’t you vote for Brexit?twistedfirestopper3 said:
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.HYUFD said:
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last weektwistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Surely you should be blaming yourself?0 -
Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.0 -
it'll take a lot if noise and fury before the numbers exist for thatasjohnstone said:
Parliament can't compel the executive to do anything short of being no confidenced May can legally ignore any motion instructing her to revoke.alex. said:On revoking article 50 key question is whether
1)Parliament can order PM to revoke
or
2) PM can only revoke with approval of parliament
Quite an important difference there I think.
Of course it can empower an executive that will do it's bidding but that's a big step.....
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The one and only time in the last 4 years that Gordy's imprecation has actually come to pass.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a big moment and confirms that Nicola Sturgeon is a consummate politiciannico67 said:Thank you Scottish government for bringing this case to the ECJ . The UK can stay in on the same terms , rebate and other opt outs don’t change .
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.
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If we end up Remaining the whole country is toast.twistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
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Who cares? Corby will give me a 10% pay rise, probably force TSE to pay for it. Winner!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.0 -
We don’t need another Scottish PM after the chaos Brown caused when he was PMTheuniondivvie said:
The one and only time in the last 4 years that Gordy's imprecation has actually come to pass.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a big moment and confirms that Nicola Sturgeon is a consummate politiciannico67 said:Thank you Scottish government for bringing this case to the ECJ . The UK can stay in on the same terms , rebate and other opt outs don’t change .
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.0 -
They don't want brexit at any cost. Which I can respect as principled. But it does mean they can stop crying when they dont get it at all since they chose to reject what was in offer. Sometimes you don't get your preferred meal. Some of us were prepared to eat the same thing.TheScreamingEagles said:0 -
Very amusing prospect. Positively Socratic in its seeming simplicity and yet...no deal, so let's imagine the thousands of pages of exemptions and "well we obviously didn't mean that"s in the annexes.rcs1000 said:
I fear we'll get No Deal vs Remain as the referendum choice.another_richard said:
So you want a Deal vs No Deal referendum ?Freggles said:It's on. Second referendum time.
Hands up Leavers who are frit of the electorate?0 -
Great minds think alike:
https://twitter.com/guy_stallard/status/1072049685563609089?s=210 -
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.AmpfieldAndy said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your bitterness is sad.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction0 -
Brexiteers don't believe that or theyd never risk remain. Just like remainers don't believe no deal is that bad or they would not risk it.Richard_Tyndall said:
If we end up Remaining the whole country is toast.twistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Both might be wrong but there we are.0 -
Well the one thing we have learned over the last couple of years is the parliament is indeed sovereign0
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Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we live in a parliamentary democracy and they can legally keep us in if they want, manifesto commitments are not binding. We can whine about that and I think many remain mps have been pretty shameless as they never had any intention of us leaving, but if they insist it is an option we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generationAmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola SturgeonTheScreamingEagles said:0 -
??AmpfieldAndy said:
We don’t need another Scottish PM after the chaos Brown caused when he was PMTheuniondivvie said:
The one and only time in the last 4 years that Gordy's imprecation has actually come to pass.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a big moment and confirms that Nicola Sturgeon is a consummate politiciannico67 said:Thank you Scottish government for bringing this case to the ECJ . The UK can stay in on the same terms , rebate and other opt outs don’t change .
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.
What did his being Scottish have to do with it? As a union supporter I see no reason someone from any part of the country should not be pm. Difficult for someone in NI due to the local politics though.0 -
Now that would be icing on the cake. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no hint of Morgan straying around of the bounds of the law since his brush with insider trading.MarqueeMark said:
Piers Morgan?Nigelb said:
Doesn’t matter. He’ll go to jail after he leaves office.TheScreamingEagles said:Lock him up.
But I suspect a GOP Senate will never vote to convict Trump.0 -
Not by meTheuniondivvie said:
The one and only time in the last 4 years that Gordy's imprecation has actually come to pass.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is a big moment and confirms that Nicola Sturgeon is a consummate politiciannico67 said:Thank you Scottish government for bringing this case to the ECJ . The UK can stay in on the same terms , rebate and other opt outs don’t change .
'Scotland should lead the UK not leave it, says Gordon Brown'
Though as we're constantly told, Nicola & the SNP are not Scotland.0 -
It'll go on council tax, so you will be part paying for your own pay rise.. Car parking charges will rise, in fact all council service cost will rise to pay for ittwistedfirestopper3 said:
Who cares? Corby will give me a 10% pay rise, probably force TSE to pay for it. Winner!Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Stopper, I fear you'll regret that, should Corbyn come to power. From the economics of Venezuela to the kinder, gentler politics of modern Labour, it'll be bloody awful.
The Conservatives, whoever their leader is (and it mustn't be May) need an alternative vision to present to the country. Corbyn would be a bloody disaster but it isn't sufficient to just say that, sit back, and wait for the votes to come in.0 -
So now Remainers don’t want to have to get an Act of Parliament?Scott_P said:
What’s that stench? Oh yep, it’s double standards0 -
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.Scott_P said:0 -
Your arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.AmpfieldAndy said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your bitterness is sad.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction0 -
There speaks a man who has never sent his food back at the restaurant when it wasn't up to scratch/what he ordered...AmpfieldAndy said:
You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side. We had to wait 40 years for a referendum. You want a second after just 2. We should honour the first referendum before having a second.another_richard said:
So you want a Deal vs No Deal referendum ?Freggles said:It's on. Second referendum time.
Hands up Leavers who are frit of the electorate?0 -
Morning all
A highly significant development this morning with the ECJ seemingly allowing any country to unilaterally revoke an A50 declaration. Now, I'm not a lawyer or solicitor but I presume that means the revocation has to take place within the two year period when the A50 is in effect (subject to any mutually agreed extension).
In other words, we can unilaterally revoke A50 before 29/3/19 and remain members of the EU under the terms which existed on 23/6/16.
Ok, no problem there but who would then initiate such a revocation? If "Brexit means Brexit" as someone once said, it's hard to see the Government seeking to initiate revocation even if the alternative was leaving without a Deal. They could argue the likely economic disruption (for which said Government had done no contingency planning) forces them to revoke A50 but there would be a political price to pay.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
The ECJ would make a GE a little clearer if we were to hold one before March as parties could stand clearly advocating revocation of A50 under the ECJ ruling and if said parties won a majority in Parliament that mandate would, I'd argue, supercede the mandate of 23/6/16 to leave the EU.
What this morning has done has clarified the second option if the Deal falls tomorrow - we can leave without a Deal and see what happens (which I maintain will be far less severe than the apocalyptic scenarios of Carney) or we can unilaterally revoke if there is a majority in Parliament so to do.
For the Conservatives, the dilemma will be clear - risk the economic consequences of No Deal while carrying out the mandate of 23/6/16 or preserve the economy from harm (though a global slowdown may be happening anyway) but risk the political price of not accepting the mandate in the form of the sense of betrayal from the voters.0 -
We'd be re-running general elections every year on that basisFreggles said:
There speaks a man who has never sent his food back at the restaurant when it wasn't up to scratch/what he ordered...AmpfieldAndy said:
You’ve already lost one despite having the Gov of the day on your side. We had to wait 40 years for a referendum. You want a second after just 2. We should honour the first referendum before having a second.another_richard said:
So you want a Deal vs No Deal referendum ?Freggles said:It's on. Second referendum time.
Hands up Leavers who are frit of the electorate?
0 -
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generationAmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola SturgeonTheScreamingEagles said:
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat0
-
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice leftAmpfieldAndy said:
Your arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Big_G_NorthWales said:
I can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.AmpfieldAndy said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
Your bitterness is sad.AmpfieldAndy said:
.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepted TM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businesses
Your no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternative
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad.
If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.
I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reaction0 -
Phone hacking?Nigelb said:
Now that would be icing on the cake. But as far as I'm aware, there has been no hint of Morgan straying around of the bounds of the law since his brush with insider trading.MarqueeMark said:
Piers Morgan?Nigelb said:
Doesn’t matter. He’ll go to jail after he leaves office.TheScreamingEagles said:Lock him up.
But I suspect a GOP Senate will never vote to convict Trump.0 -
No deal is utter madness! To coin a phrase "we are not prepared".AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
For now, no Brexit is the only sane choice left.0 -
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?0 -
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
Remaining, then with Jeremy Corbyn as PM, will test those worst case scenarios of No Deal Brexit.Richard_Tyndall said:
If we end up Remaining the whole country is toast.twistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Just watch the inward investment dry up, the capital flee, the unemployment soar, the house prices crash and burn.0 -
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
I agree. That statement "in accordance with its constitutional requirements" has ambiguity written all over it . As a large part of our "constitution" is based on precedent it will be an interesting one. Any lawyers wish to comment?kle4 said:
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.Scott_P said:0 -
Leavers have been given full view of the EU’s negotiating strategy and red lines. They have been handed a golden opportunity to go away and do some proper thinking on how to counter them. Obviously, they won’t do that.AlastairMeeks said:
You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.kle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple tomay remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.
0 -
I agree, a GE mandate with a specific commitment to revoke article 50 does trump the referendum. You’re not going to get that from the current labour leadership.stodge said:Morning all
A highly significant development this morning with the ECJ seemingly allowing any country to unilaterally revoke an A50 declaration. Now, I'm not a lawyer or solicitor but I presume that means the revocation has to take place within the two year period when the A50 is in effect (subject to any mutually agreed extension).
In other words, we can unilaterally revoke A50 before 29/3/19 and remain members of the EU under the terms which existed on 23/6/16.
Ok, no problem there but who would then initiate such a revocation? If "Brexit means Brexit" as someone once said, it's hard to see the Government seeking to initiate revocation even if the alternative was leaving without a Deal. They could argue the likely economic disruption (for which said Government had done no contingency planning) forces them to revoke A50 but there would be a political price to pay.
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
The ECJ would make a GE a little clearer if we were to hold one before March as parties could stand clearly advocating revocation of A50 under the ECJ ruling and if said parties won a majority in Parliament that mandate would, I'd argue, supercede the mandate of 23/6/16 to leave the EU.
What this morning has done has clarified the second option if the Deal falls tomorrow - we can leave without a Deal and see what happens (which I maintain will be far less severe than the apocalyptic scenarios of Carney) or we can unilaterally revoke if there is a majority in Parliament so to do.
For the Conservatives, the dilemma will be clear - risk the economic consequences of No Deal while carrying out the mandate of 23/6/16 or preserve the economy from harm (though a global slowdown may be happening anyway) but risk the political price of not accepting the mandate in the form of the sense of betrayal from the voters.0 -
I understand the politics of wanting to support a Deal brought back by a Conservative Prime Minister but said Deal's inadequacies have been well and truly exposed. Perhaps the problem is the language which leaves it open to interpretation or misinterpretation depending on your objectivity (or more accurately lack of it).Big_G_NorthWales said:
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
It could be the objections to the Deal are motivated wholly by politics but then so could support for the Deal as well.
The choices as of this morning are leaving without a Deal (for which the planning and preparation has been wholly inadequate) or revoking A50. Both carry a political price - which do you want to pay?
0 -
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.0 -
You were hardly a committed Tory anyway. As the polling shows if Corbyn does get in it will likely be without a majority, propped up by the SNP and with the Tories largest party and the Tories could certainly have comfortable poll leads within a few months.twistedfirestopper3 said:
I'm voting for whoever is the Labour candidate next time. Let Corbyn have a crack at it. You Tories are going to get the blame for Brexit, and deserve to go down.HYUFD said:
Uh no, the Tories will never be toast while Corbyn is Labour leader hence despite everything the Tories and Labour were exactly tied in both polls last weektwistedfirestopper3 said:We're never going to get over this, are we? On the bright side, the Tories are actual toast.
Remember too the Tories have only been out of power for more than 6 years once in the last century from 1997 to 2010 and Blair had double digit leads before he came to office, far from where Corbyn is now. On Brexit it was of course the British people themselves who narrowly voted to Leave the EU and Corbyn's policy on Brexit is little different to May's bar replacing a temporary Customs Union with a permanent one0 -
Your bitterness is sad. Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepteTM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businessesYour no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternativeMay’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad. If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reactionYour arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice leftAmpfieldAndy said:
.
You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks0 -
Remain voters should have voted LibDemkle4 said:
I don't want us to remain. I just think enough people want to remain, and enough leavers were happy to risk remaining, that it will happen despite the problems remaining will cause.AmpfieldAndy said:
Indeed we do, but we won’t be living in a parliamentary democracy for long if MPs think it’s acceptable to brazenly lie to the electorate in their manifestos. I suspect the electorate as a whole will want a much higher degree of probity and honesty from their elected representatives than you seem to need.kle4 said:
Yes well we ption we must deal with that.And it will win because no dealers make it win. And since they believe a bad deal is worse they should not even be upset at remaining. After all the no dealers are lining up with their allies the remainers tomorrow.AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left te for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky. Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now. Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal. If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generationAmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Staying must now be a near racing certainty Well done to Nicola SturgeonTheScreamingEagles said:
I want us to leave. It's the Rees Moggs of this world with allies among remainer mps who will prevent that.0 -
-
"In accordance with its constitutional requirements" is the CJEU recognisign that it does not have jurisdiction to rule on whether, as a matter of UK law, Article 50 can be revoked by the government, by parliamentary act and/or referendum. The decision is limited to EU law.Nigel_Foremain said:
I agree. That statement "in accordance with its constitutional requirements" has ambiguity written all over it . As a large part of our "constitution" is based on precedent it will be an interesting one. Any lawyers wish to comment?kle4 said:
What he's told is irrelevant. The gov thought it had the power to invoke and were wrong, someone else thinks the gov has power to revoke and might be wrong - better get a supreme court case up and running now.Scott_P said:
0 -
What I haven't heard from the ultra-Remainers on here and in the wet end of the Con party e.g. Ms Rudd is any sort of plan for how they hope to govern after they overturn the result of the democratic referendum.
A pat on the head and being told to run along whilst your betters run the country for you seems to be about it.
0 -
Out of interest when was the last time this happened or anyone wanted it to happen?stodge said:Morning all
The current Labour leadership seems also to be set on leaving albeit under slightly different terms (as a working man I'm worried a future Conservative leader will use our absence from the EU to abrogate a raft of my rights and protections, at least I know with Corbyn that won't happen).
I would think the Thatcher Union reforms, which have endured governments of both colours since introduction.
I put this down as a theoretical fear, the removal of rights by a UK government is rare and unlikely. It isn't going to get any easier to sack you, stop you striking, reduce your pay or holiday entitlement under any likely government. (Although I think paternity leave is getting close to needing adjustment in favour of the employer).0 -
Isn't there another dimension to the question of the referendum wording?AmpfieldAndy said:
No deal is better than a bad deal.kle4 said:
Some of those 17.4million want to accept the deal so we leave at all. Right now that is looking very shaky.AmpfieldAndy said:
You are blind to the wishes of 17.4 m voters and bent out of shape like a true europhile because you lost first time around.Big_G_NorthWales said:
You cannot see beyond no deal.AmpfieldAndy said:
It certainly kills off May’s deal which is inferior to both no deal and no Brexit. No deal has to be the only legitimate choice now.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If Brexiteers had any sense they should accept TM deal or it is all over for a generation
Parliament might accept other brexits than Mays deal, but probably only softer ones. So it's either bad brexit or no brexit - since it is now legally simple to revoke A50. I doubt we will for some months, we need to be right up to the wire for enough Mps to break ranks and bring down the government, but it is looking good for remainers right now.
Everyone will need to remember we could have left. We had a deal, however imperfect, that meant we were legally out. Well done to the Brexiteers who truly do believe no brexit is better than a bad brexit. But that also means no complaints from them please, since it was by their choice we now may remain.
The only way to test your thesis is to hold a second referendum no deal vs deal. Remain should be left out of the choices as they have already lost once. If Parliament wants a different deal they should first dissolve, hold a general election and win an electoral mandate for it. May’s deal bears no resemblance to any party’s manifesto commitments on Brexit.
To hold a referendum now I presume we need an extension of the deadline. Unlike revocation, that will still require unanimous agreement of the other member countries. Isn't it likely that before agreeing, they (or at least one of them) will want to ensure that the referendum will not result in "No Deal"?0 -
May’s deal has cost them my vote. It bears no resemblance to the Tory manifesto commitment. As a lifelong Tory voter, I don’t think I’m alone. That’s what’s sad. If you want to trash the economy, lying to the electorate as May has done and paving the way for a Corbyn Gov is as good a way of doing it as I can imagine. Still, if people are happy to vote for liars as you appear to be, maybe the Tories have a chance. I don’t really care any more. I however do care about being lied to. I voted Leave which won and if no deal is the only way we can Leave then no deal it is.can see your hurt and I am sorry but ultimately the politicians duty is to protect our economy and secure the future for our grandchildren. The brexiteers were always cavalier but their dream came up against the reality that most of the Country do not share their enthusiam for walking off a cliff.I read posters prediction the conservatives will be wiped out and Corbyn installed in no 10 but no one knows how this will pan out and it does seem an understandable knee jerk reactionYour arrogance and contempt for 17.4 million voters is truly sickening. The economy is one issue among many that politicians need to manage. Using the Treasury to brazenly lie as Osborne did is not the kind of politics I want although you appear not to mind being lied to by your elected representatives.Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice leftBig_G_NorthWales said:
Your bitterness is sad. Since the vote I have endorsed leave and throughout accepteTM deal as it protects business, as you would expect from someone who for most of his adult life, before retirement, ran his own businessesYour no deal will trash our economy and in rejecting TM's deal it leaves me, and I suspect many, in a position that the option to cancel A50 and remain in tne EU on our present terms the attractive alternativeAmpfieldAndy said:
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You are arrogant and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
Sadly it is not for you to dictate to me who I support and because we disagree you direct personal anger towards me. Time to grow up methinks
I am not dictating to you who should and should not support. Merely expressing my difference of opinion. As for growing up - try practicing what you preach.0 -
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
Against no deal, revoke is my choicestodge said:
I understand the politics of wanting to support a Deal brought back by a Conservative Prime Minister but said Deal's inadequacies have been well and truly exposed. Perhaps the problem is the language which leaves it open to interpretation or misinterpretation depending on your objectivity (or more accurately lack of it).Big_G_NorthWales said:
Both sides were guilty of misleading statements and do not accuse me of arrogance when I support TM brexit deal 100% but the greed of brexiteers is going to take it down. In that case remain is the only choice left
It could be the objections to the Deal are motivated wholly by politics but then so could support for the Deal as well.
The choices as of this morning are leaving without a Deal (for which the planning and preparation has been wholly inadequate) or revoking A50. Both carry a political price - which do you want to pay?0 -
Absolutely agree. Listening to Gove, who tbf is supporting The Deal, nevertheless unequivocally denounce this or that element (CJEU, etc) as "not Brexit not what the people voted for", is vomit-inducing.AlastairMeeks said:You have to conclude in the end that senior Leavers don't want Brexit enough. Their unwillingness to get stuck into the detail, their unwillingness to fight at critical moments and their unwillingness to compromise has made it far more likely than I ever could have imagined that Brexit won't happen.
They were so full of what it should be they didn't bother paying attention to what it could be.0 -
Parliament wouldn’t authorise resubmissionrcs1000 said:
Well, that solves the requirement for unanimity for extending the deadline.TheScreamingEagles said:
Revocation of A50 on Tuesday... submission of A50 on Wednesday...0 -
The EU doesn't need to negotiate another WA on the second invocationrcs1000 said:
Well, that solves the requirement for unanimity for extending the deadline.TheScreamingEagles said:
Revocation of A50 on Tuesday... submission of A50 on Wednesday...0 -
He does however have a point, remainiung will lead to a realighment within british politicsTOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.
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Ah, the ethnic cleansing of the Tory Party has begun has it. Let’s see how you react when you and your fellow Tory Remainers let Corbyn inHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.0 -
There is no new party - the oldest party will benefit the most from any backsliding on Brexit - the stay at home party.HYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
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chortleHYUFD said:
I am sure UKIP or Farage's new party will welcome your support, most voters want a Deal as even the Leave campaign promisedAmpfieldAndy said:
You are arrogant BIg_G and your contempt is breathtaking. If you want to support May, go ahead but her deal flagrantly breaches the Tory manifesto. I won’t support that even if you will.
ah yes the fk off and join UKIP strategy which worked so well when people did.0 -
And that's when May goes to the country...Charles said:
Parliament wouldn’t authorise resubmissionrcs1000 said:
Well, that solves the requirement for unanimity for extending the deadline.TheScreamingEagles said:
Revocation of A50 on Tuesday... submission of A50 on Wednesday...0 -
Prediction: the most embittered generation this country will ever have seen will be those who put their hopes in the EU and Jeremy Corbyn....TOPPING said:
Antiquarian Action!Mortimer said:
Remaining will stoke up anti establishment movements of all flavours.Nigel_Foremain said:I wonder how historians will see this period in our history. A re-launch of far right wing anti-immigrant nationalism or its last gasp during it's death throws? I hope it is not blind optimism on my part but it seems to me that the gammons are in red-faced retreat
Do Remain Ultras accept that will be their fault alone if they go against the result of the referendum and the subsequent GE?
I can see the banner now.0 -
Quick thought:
If May does go for a Deal/No Deal referendum without Remain, Corbyn will call a VONC, and Soubry, Grieve and Greening etc. will either back him or abstain.
May will be finished within a week.0 -
This discussion has been closed.