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  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699

    The father of the DUP's Emma Little Pengelly, who has just won the South Belfast seat, is Noel Little, a Co Armagh loyalist and founder of Ulster Resistance.

    Little was one of three men arrested in Paris in 1989 in connection with a plot to exchange a missile stolen from Shorts for South African guns.

    After spending two years on remand the trio received suspended sentences and fines.

    The weapons they sought to procure were destined for the UVF, UDA and Ulster Resistance.

    Irish Times

    Damning proof.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    Sandpit said:

    I actually don't see anything wrong with banning driverless trains. I wouldn't feel safe going on a train without a driver.

    I actually don't think Labour's manifesto is the big issue. It isn't really that radical. The issue is what Corbyn and McDonnell would like to do that they haven't been quite honest about.

    But all this panicking about a Corbyn/McDonnell government on here is hilarious and ridiculous. The truth is, politics is unpredictable as ever - there are no certainties anymore so it's time to stop talking as if there are. What I would say is that it's unlikely that any party is going to win a comfortable or even a working majority at the next GE. It is likely to be a small majority or being the largest party in a hung parliament, and in that scenario no party gets to do whatever they want lol. So stop with the apocalyptic scenarios.

    Just come back from Vancouver and they have the most fantastic driverless metro system. We are dinosaurs if we dont look to the future which in many countries is happening now
    Same in Dubai. No-one is building city light rail with drivers any more, even in London there's the driverless DLR.

    Driverless on main heavy rail lines is a tad more difficult though, but if the drivers keep on turning down £75k salaries it will happen soon enough.
    You're sadly making too much of the DLR. Yes, it is driverless (though there are consoles that can be used to drive it), but AIUI every train has to have a 'train captain' on board, who open and close the doors and do other things like check tickets and chat to passengers.

    So there is still one staff member per train, even if they're not usually a 'driver', and patrol the train rather than sit in a cab. Thus staffing costs are not much reduced.

    True driverless systems could operate without any staff members on board, including door operations.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    I don't recall many criticisms of Milliband as a communist. His father was a Marxist but what that had to do with him I don't know. He was the rump end of the brownism blairite offshoot, devoid of ideas for government. I think he is a very goof man even If I don't fully agree with his politics. Same could be said of Brown except he was worse inasmuch as he squashed any leadership rival as they came up when Blair was leads, leaving a he Labour Party short of leadership now.

    Corbyn and his cabal are a step beyond, using terrorist attacks and building fires in an openly political way. His predecessors would have at least waited for a report or investigation. They will also say anything to get in, promise any spending increase, apart From defence spending. Can anyone quote any instance ever of Corbyn wanting to cut spending outside of defence.
    To be precise EdM was decried as a "Marxist" on here, rather than a communist. But the basic point about crying wolf stands
    He was also accused by his opponents of not to be trusted with the nation's defence.This because he stood for the Labour leadership .Crying wolf over this undermines the attacks.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't excuse their links with another scumbag paramilitary group
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't excuse their links with another scumbag paramilitary group
    Just give up - you are losing it - they will support the conservative government and there is nothing you can do or say that will prevent it
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    UVF flags not being condemned by the local DUP MP !

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/21/news/dup-s-emma-little-pengelly-criticised-over-uvf-flags-in-shared-neighbourhood-1062249/
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.

    The Tories got most seats and should have ploughed on as a minority Government and dared the others to bring them down.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308

    Sandpit said:

    I actually don't see anything wrong with banning driverless trains. I wouldn't feel safe going on a train without a driver.

    I actually don't think Labour's manifesto is the big issue. It isn't really that radical. The issue is what Corbyn and McDonnell would like to do that they haven't been quite honest about.

    But all this panicking about a Corbyn/McDonnell government on here is hilarious and ridiculous. The truth is, politics is unpredictable as ever - there are no certainties anymore so it's time to stop talking as if there are. What I would say is that it's unlikely that any party is going to win a comfortable or even a working majority at the next GE. It is likely to be a small majority or being the largest party in a hung parliament, and in that scenario no party gets to do whatever they want lol. So stop with the apocalyptic scenarios.

    Just come back from Vancouver and they have the most fantastic driverless metro system. We are dinosaurs if we dont look to the future which in many countries is happening now
    Same in Dubai. No-one is building city light rail with drivers any more, even in London there's the driverless DLR.

    Driverless on main heavy rail lines is a tad more difficult though, but if the drivers keep on turning down £75k salaries it will happen soon enough.
    You're sadly making too much of the DLR. Yes, it is driverless (though there are consoles that can be used to drive it), but AIUI every train has to have a 'train captain' on board, who open and close the doors and do other things like check tickets and chat to passengers.

    So there is still one staff member per train, even if they're not usually a 'driver', and patrol the train rather than sit in a cab. Thus staffing costs are not much reduced.

    True driverless systems could operate without any staff members on board, including door operations.
    Vancouver metro system
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219

    The father of the DUP's Emma Little Pengelly, who has just won the South Belfast seat, is Noel Little, a Co Armagh loyalist and founder of Ulster Resistance.

    Little was one of three men arrested in Paris in 1989 in connection with a plot to exchange a missile stolen from Shorts for South African guns.

    After spending two years on remand the trio received suspended sentences and fines.

    The weapons they sought to procure were destined for the UVF, UDA and Ulster Resistance.

    Irish Times

    Her father, not her.

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    Where do I say they are? They are linked.

    They are a nasty bunch with very ugly links.
    Explain what is meant by "linked". Do you mean that people like Arlene Foster, Nigel Dodds, Jeffrey Donaldson plot criminal activities with UDA leaders?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    edited June 2017
    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    UVF flags not being condemned by the local DUP MP !

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/21/news/dup-s-emma-little-pengelly-criticised-over-uvf-flags-in-shared-neighbourhood-1062249/
    She deserves lots of criticism for that, but it's a long way from being involved with terrorism.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    I actually don't see anything wrong with banning driverless trains. I wouldn't feel safe going on a train without a driver.

    I actually don't think Labour's manifesto is the big issue. It isn't really that radical. The issue is what Corbyn and McDonnell would like to do that they haven't been quite honest about.

    But all this panicking about a Corbyn/McDonnell government on here is hilarious and ridiculous. The truth is, politics is unpredictable as ever - there are no certainties anymore so it's time to stop talking as if there are. What I would say is that it's unlikely that any party is going to win a comfortable or even a working majority at the next GE. It is likely to be a small majority or being the largest party in a hung parliament, and in that scenario no party gets to do whatever they want lol. So stop with the apocalyptic scenarios.

    Just come back from Vancouver and they have the most fantastic driverless metro system. We are dinosaurs if we dont look to the future which in many countries is happening now
    Same in Dubai. No-one is building city light rail with drivers any more, even in London there's the driverless DLR.

    Driverless on main heavy rail lines is a tad more difficult though, but if the drivers keep on turning down £75k salaries it will happen soon enough.
    When WWC people complain about immigrants undercutting their wages they are the sturdy yeoman of Older England. When they organise to collectively to arrange higher wages they are parasitical communists.

    It is why the kipper vote did not all break for the Tories. With Brexit achieved the Tories have no further use of them, but Corbyn's Labour does.

    It hasn't really changed since Kipling wrote, albeit in the context of soldiers rather than voters:

    "I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
    The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
    The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
    I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
    O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
    But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,

    Snip

    "You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
    We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
    Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
    The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
    For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
    But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
    An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
    An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees! "



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,536
    tyson said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.

    The Tories got most seats and should have ploughed on as a minority Government and dared the others to bring them down.
    very unsavoury

    unless Labour do it, then its progressive
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Sean_F said:

    The father of the DUP's Emma Little Pengelly, who has just won the South Belfast seat, is Noel Little, a Co Armagh loyalist and founder of Ulster Resistance.

    Little was one of three men arrested in Paris in 1989 in connection with a plot to exchange a missile stolen from Shorts for South African guns.

    After spending two years on remand the trio received suspended sentences and fines.

    The weapons they sought to procure were destined for the UVF, UDA and Ulster Resistance.

    Irish Times

    Her father, not her.

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    Where do I say they are? They are linked.

    They are a nasty bunch with very ugly links.
    Explain what is meant by "linked". Do you mean that people like Arlene Foster, Nigel Dodds, Jeffrey Donaldson plot criminal activities with UDA leaders?
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-chief-arlene-foster-met-uda-boss-days-after-loyalist-murder-in-bangor-35776873.html
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    Andy_JS said:

    All we know is that Theresa May is vanishingly unlikely to be Conservative leader at the time of the next general election. But the Tories might decide it suits them to keep her in place until, say, a couple of years before that takes place, which could be in another three years' time. For example they might think it's best if she continues to take most of the unpopularity the Tories are currently enduring so that the new leader isn't affected by it, (assuming it reduces eventually).

    The Tories are on a downwards trajectory and there is sweet FA anyone in the party can do about it. I doubt very much the Tories will look like winning a majority for a decade or maybe longer, or maybe ever. All the detoxifying of recent years has unfortunately come to an abrupt end.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    I don't recall many criticisms of Milliband as a communist. His father was a Marxist but what that had to do with him I don't know. He was the rump end of the brownism blairite offshoot, devoid of ideas for government. I think he is a very goof man even If I don't fully agree with his politics. Same could be said of Brown except he was worse inasmuch as he squashed any leadership rival as they came up when Blair was leads, leaving a he Labour Party short of leadership now.

    Corbyn and his cabal are a step beyond, using terrorist attacks and building fires in an openly political way. His predecessors would have at least waited for a report or investigation. They will also say anything to get in, promise any spending increase, apart From defence spending. Can anyone quote any instance ever of Corbyn wanting to cut spending outside of defence.
    Brown did not crush his leadership rivals -- almost to a man he appointed them to his cabinet. People repeat that charge on here but if anything it is true of Blair rather than Brown.

    Corbyn (though not the party) wants to cut Trident. It is Conservative governments who have consistently cut defence spending and our armed forces. It would be interesting to see an election fought on this issue -- it might not go according to expectations.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 41,526
    tyson said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.

    The Tories got most seats and should have ploughed on as a minority Government and dared the others to bring them down.
    May is dealing with the duly elected representatives of a constituent part of the United Kingdom.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    tyson said:

    Andy_JS said:

    All we know is that Theresa May is vanishingly unlikely to be Conservative leader at the time of the next general election. But the Tories might decide it suits them to keep her in place until, say, a couple of years before that takes place, which could be in another three years' time. For example they might think it's best if she continues to take most of the unpopularity the Tories are currently enduring so that the new leader isn't affected by it, (assuming it reduces eventually).

    The Tories are on a downwards trajectory and there is sweet FA anyone in the party can do about it. I doubt very much the Tories will look like winning a majority for a decade or maybe longer, or maybe ever. All the detoxifying of recent years has unfortunately come to an abrupt end.
    Wasn't too long ago that we were told the Tories would never win a majority ever again. :smiley:
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't excuse their links with another scumbag paramilitary group
    Just give up - you are losing it - they will support the conservative government and there is nothing you can do or say that will prevent it
    I'm aware I have no power to stop it. I'm simply warning our Tory friends to be aware of who they are mixing with. It would seem they don't care. Okay.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    Agreed. Do you remember when the Daily Mail accused his dad of hating Britain? No wonder so many don't take them seriously.
    It was a disgrace. When Clegg was doing well before 2010 they tried to smear him with some sort of Nazi stuff. I don't think they get how much this turns a lot of people off.
    Nazi stuff? Clegg? Really?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html

    His quote was:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more than Germany with its memories of Nazism," he had written. "But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."
    One doesn't expect serious analysis of careful, thoughtful, arguement from the Mail. Especially at election time.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    edited June 2017
    tyson said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.

    The Tories got most seats and should have ploughed on as a minority Government and dared the others to bring them down.
    To be honest Tyson I do agree that they could maybe should have ploughed on as a minority government as I do not believe any of the opposition parties other than labour, want a GE before March 2019. However while I do not agree on their social views these are devolved but in other policies they are a fit for the conservatives especially over corporation tax which they want reduced to compete with Ireland's 12.5%.

    That is one of several reasons they will not precipitate a GE. Have you noticed the utter loathing Dodds has for Corbyn in the HOC exchanges
  • SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    tyson said:



    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.


    Well, the IRA card turned out to be worth nothing in the eyes of todays electorate, so maybe she figures what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

    If the IRA of the 1980s are now no longer beyond the pale, why should the DUP of 2017 be so?

    Or is this going to be yet another hypocritical situation where it's one rule for Labour and quite another for the Tories?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219
    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    The father of the DUP's Emma Little Pengelly, who has just won the South Belfast seat, is Noel Little, a Co Armagh loyalist and founder of Ulster Resistance.

    Little was one of three men arrested in Paris in 1989 in connection with a plot to exchange a missile stolen from Shorts for South African guns.

    After spending two years on remand the trio received suspended sentences and fines.

    The weapons they sought to procure were destined for the UVF, UDA and Ulster Resistance.

    Irish Times

    Her father, not her.

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    Where do I say they are? They are linked.

    They are a nasty bunch with very ugly links.
    Explain what is meant by "linked". Do you mean that people like Arlene Foster, Nigel Dodds, Jeffrey Donaldson plot criminal activities with UDA leaders?
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-chief-arlene-foster-met-uda-boss-days-after-loyalist-murder-in-bangor-35776873.html
    The article is clear that she condemned UDA activities.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    RobD said:

    tyson said:

    Andy_JS said:

    All we know is that Theresa May is vanishingly unlikely to be Conservative leader at the time of the next general election. But the Tories might decide it suits them to keep her in place until, say, a couple of years before that takes place, which could be in another three years' time. For example they might think it's best if she continues to take most of the unpopularity the Tories are currently enduring so that the new leader isn't affected by it, (assuming it reduces eventually).

    The Tories are on a downwards trajectory and there is sweet FA anyone in the party can do about it. I doubt very much the Tories will look like winning a majority for a decade or maybe longer, or maybe ever. All the detoxifying of recent years has unfortunately come to an abrupt end.
    Wasn't too long ago that we were told the Tories would never win a majority ever again. :smiley:
    Comrade...for the Tories to get a majority took years of Cameron repositioning, a banking crisis, and a number of elections.....

    they may well get back into a position when they look like winning a majority again, but it doesn't look anytime soon....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 55,699
    tyson said:

    RobD said:

    tyson said:

    Andy_JS said:

    All we know is that Theresa May is vanishingly unlikely to be Conservative leader at the time of the next general election. But the Tories might decide it suits them to keep her in place until, say, a couple of years before that takes place, which could be in another three years' time. For example they might think it's best if she continues to take most of the unpopularity the Tories are currently enduring so that the new leader isn't affected by it, (assuming it reduces eventually).

    The Tories are on a downwards trajectory and there is sweet FA anyone in the party can do about it. I doubt very much the Tories will look like winning a majority for a decade or maybe longer, or maybe ever. All the detoxifying of recent years has unfortunately come to an abrupt end.
    Wasn't too long ago that we were told the Tories would never win a majority ever again. :smiley:
    Comrade...for the Tories to get a majority took years of Cameron repositioning, a banking crisis, and a number of elections.....

    they may well get back into a position when they look like winning a majority again, but it doesn't look anytime soon....
    I think we were told the Tories would never win a majority again as late as 2015. :p
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225
    edited June 2017

    tyson said:



    Do you not think that the whole reaching out to the DUP is downright unsavoury. May is playing with fire delving into the murky world of Northern Irish politics, and this after throwing the IRA card at Corbyn for the 2017 election.


    Well, the IRA card turned out to be worth nothing in the eyes of todays electorate, so maybe she figures what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

    If the IRA of the 1980s are now no longer beyond the pale, why should the DUP of 2017 be so?

    Or is this going to be yet another hypocritical situation where it's one rule for Labour and quite another for the Tories?
    Fair point. Works both ways, though.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited June 2017

    Sandpit said:

    I actually don't see anything wrong with banning driverless trains. I wouldn't feel safe going on a train without a driver.

    I actually don't think Labour's manifesto is the big issue. It isn't really that radical. The issue is what Corbyn and McDonnell would like to do that they haven't been quite honest about.

    But all this panicking about a Corbyn/McDonnell government on here is hilarious and ridiculous. The truth is, politics is unpredictable as ever - there are no certainties anymore so it's time to stop talking as if there are. What I would say is that it's unlikely that any party is going to win a comfortable or even a working majority at the next GE. It is likely to be a small majority or being the largest party in a hung parliament, and in that scenario no party gets to do whatever they want lol. So stop with the apocalyptic scenarios.

    Just come back from Vancouver and they have the most fantastic driverless metro system. We are dinosaurs if we dont look to the future which in many countries is happening now
    Same in Dubai. No-one is building city light rail with drivers any more, even in London there's the driverless DLR.

    Driverless on main heavy rail lines is a tad more difficult though, but if the drivers keep on turning down £75k salaries it will happen soon enough.
    You're sadly making too much of the DLR. Yes, it is driverless (though there are consoles that can be used to drive it), but AIUI every train has to have a 'train captain' on board, who open and close the doors and do other things like check tickets and chat to passengers.

    So there is still one staff member per train, even if they're not usually a 'driver', and patrol the train rather than sit in a cab. Thus staffing costs are not much reduced.

    True driverless systems could operate without any staff members on board, including door operations.
    Been a while since I was on the DLR I must admit, I thought it could be run with no-one working on board.

    In Dubai there's a few 'customer service' types with radios, a few (unarmed) transport police and ticket inspectors in the first class cabin, but no-one on the train that 'needs' to do anything related to the train itself, that's all run from the central control room. The 'customer service' guys are cheap to hire ($1,000/month) and not unionised though.

    I guess the key is the double platform doors, as also seen on the Jubilee line extension in London, that close before the train doors and minimise the chance of someone getting stuck half in and half out of the train.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,536
    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    UVF flags not being condemned by the local DUP MP !

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/21/news/dup-s-emma-little-pengelly-criticised-over-uvf-flags-in-shared-neighbourhood-1062249/
    SNP dying to work with murder gangs

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-30424810/alex-salmond-snp-could-work-with-sinn-fein-or-dup
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629
    Greatest strategic blunder since Stalingrad, surely.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    I don't recall

    Corbyn and his cabal are a step beyond, using terrorist attacks and building fires in an openly political way. His predecessors would have at least waited for a report or investigation. They will also say anything to get in, promise any spending increase, apart From defence spending. Can anyone quote any instance ever of Corbyn wanting to cut spending outside of defence.
    Brown did not crush his leadership rivals -- almost to a man he appointed them to his cabinet. People repeat that charge on here but if anything it is true of Blair rather than Brown.

    Corbyn (though not the party) wants to cut Trident. It is Conservative governments who have consistently cut defence spending and our armed forces. It would be interesting to see an election fought on this issue -- it might not go according to expectations.
    One thing we learnt a few weeks ago is that Labour need not be afraid of a radical manifesto. I think a scrap Trident and spend the money on housing manifesto would be a vote winner.

    On the DUP, I am happy for them to form part of either government or opposition, they are democratically elected members of our national Parliament and should be encouraged to take up a full role. The role of the government in re-establishing Storming is problematic, as is the incompetence of the DUP in their fuel scheme.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    The father of the DUP's Emma Little Pengelly, who has just won the South Belfast seat, is Noel Little, a Co Armagh loyalist and founder of Ulster Resistance.

    Little was one of three men arrested in Paris in 1989 in connection with a plot to exchange a missile stolen from Shorts for South African guns.

    After spending two years on remand the trio received suspended sentences and fines.

    The weapons they sought to procure were destined for the UVF, UDA and Ulster Resistance.

    Irish Times

    Her father, not her.

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    Where do I say they are? They are linked.

    They are a nasty bunch with very ugly links.
    Explain what is meant by "linked". Do you mean that people like Arlene Foster, Nigel Dodds, Jeffrey Donaldson plot criminal activities with UDA leaders?
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2017/dup-chief-arlene-foster-met-uda-boss-days-after-loyalist-murder-in-bangor-35776873.html
    The article is clear that she condemned UDA activities.
    Condemned the murder not the DUP supporting UDA.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,822

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    Agreed. Do you remember when the Daily Mail accused his dad of hating Britain? No wonder so many don't take them seriously.
    It was a disgrace. When Clegg was doing well before 2010 they tried to smear him with some sort of Nazi stuff. I don't think they get how much this turns a lot of people off.
    Nazi stuff? Clegg? Really?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html

    His quote was:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more than Germany with its memories of Nazism," he had written. "But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."
    I look forward to their expose of the DUP/UDA
    Don't think that quote by Clegg merited that DM front page headline at all.

    As you say, very interesting they aren't outraged about the DUP, given some of their views on creationism and homosexuality,
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited June 2017

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't excuse their links with another scumbag paramilitary group
    Just give up - you are losing it - they will support the conservative government and there is nothing you can do or say that will prevent it
    I'm aware I have no power to stop it. I'm simply warning our Tory friends to be aware of who they are mixing with. It would seem they don't care. Okay.
    There's not a coalition, more likely an agreement to vote for the QS & the Budget, and abstain rather than vote against anything else.

    The alternatives are either Corbyn and his band of terrorist sympathisers merry men, or another election. We'll take what we can get.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,585

    Sean_F said:

    Miss Apocalypse

    Really? You've never been on the DLR then?

    Nope.
    You would refuse to use it??
    If I have to I probably would, I'd just force myself to get over any fears or apprehensions.
    When I travelled on the Vancouver metro system last month I had no idea it was completely automated with no on board staff or drivers until my son told me. It was just so fast, efficient, clean and amazing and each one following each other within minutes
    and @JosiasJessop

    Ah, interesting. Thanks for that info, I didn't know the extent to which both our system was so automated and the success of other automated systems aboard.
    I'd be worried about driverless trains running at high speed. The DLR travels at a very sedate pace.
    Automatic trains are really nothing to worry about. But, for the forseeable future, all mainline trains will have human drivers in them, even if they don't do very much.
    On very high speed trains like the TGV at full pelt, the driver is pretty much window dressing, and can't react as the computers if a sudden stop is required. Where humans are still needed is the interfaces between effectively automated and legacy tracks. It was the failure of the human driver to correctly supervise that transition, and slow at a curve coming off the high-speed line, that caused the accident in Spain a few years ago.

    Even on traditional tracks, at high speed there is little the human can do to stop a disaster. I recall a Virgin Trains crash a few years back with fortunately few serious injuries where Branson praised his driver for "staying at the wheel" and "keeping the train on the tracks" when in reality the driver himself said that all he could do was hang on for dear life until the train stopped moving.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Greatest strategic blunder since Stalingrad, surely.

    There have been major strategic blunders since Singapore, Saddam invading Kuwait for example. If we stick to purely British errors then both Suez and Gulf War 2 must be in the same league, and the retreat from Basra as humiliating as Singapore.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    UVF flags not being condemned by the local DUP MP !

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/21/news/dup-s-emma-little-pengelly-criticised-over-uvf-flags-in-shared-neighbourhood-1062249/
    SNP dying to work with murder gangs

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-30424810/alex-salmond-snp-could-work-with-sinn-fein-or-dup
    How's this relevant to discussing if DUP have links to UDA/UVF?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Are you saying Scandinavian countries are led by Marxists
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,822
    edited June 2017

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    McDonnell probably thinks that social democratic parties in Scandinavia are neoliberal and Conservative.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    Agreed. Do you remember when the Daily Mail accused his dad of hating Britain? No wonder so many don't take them seriously.
    It was a disgrace. When Clegg was doing well before 2010 they tried to smear him with some sort of Nazi stuff. I don't think they get how much this turns a lot of people off.
    Nazi stuff? Clegg? Really?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html

    His quote was:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more than Germany with its memories of Nazism," he had written. "But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."
    I look forward to their expose of the DUP/UDA
    Don't think that quote by Clegg merited that DM front page headline at all.

    As you say, very interesting they aren't outraged about the DUP, given some of their views on creationism and homosexuality,
    The Tories are happy to suck up to Creationists and Homophobes in the US Republicans, like Pence. Why not closer to home, in NI or elsewhere?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 21,536
    edited June 2017
    calum said:

    calum said:

    Sean_F said:

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    Name names. Tell us which DUP politicians are also members of the UDA.
    UVF flags not being condemned by the local DUP MP !

    http://www.irishnews.com/news/2017/06/21/news/dup-s-emma-little-pengelly-criticised-over-uvf-flags-in-shared-neighbourhood-1062249/
    SNP dying to work with murder gangs

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-30424810/alex-salmond-snp-could-work-with-sinn-fein-or-dup
    How's this relevant to discussing if DUP have links to UDA/UVF?
    it's relevant in that you condemn your political opponents for discussions but are quite happy when your own politicians do it

    Hypocrisy sums it up

  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    edited June 2017

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Italy, or any mainstream European country too...France, Germany and the like...

    The fact that they are viewed as so extreme in the UK is a measure of just how far neo liberal economics has moved the UK to the right....but the times are a changin....
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219

    Greatest strategic blunder since Stalingrad, surely.

    There have been major strategic blunders since Singapore, Saddam invading Kuwait for example. If we stick to purely British errors then both Suez and Gulf War 2 must be in the same league, and the retreat from Basra as humiliating as Singapore.
    Singapore was far worse, as was the Fall of Tobruk.

    Argentina invading the Falklands must rank as a gross strategic blunder.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    Nile Rogers is great
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited June 2017
    rpjs said:

    Sean_F said:

    Miss Apocalypse

    Really? You've never been on the DLR then?

    Nope.
    You would refuse to use it??
    If I have to I probably would, I'd just force myself to get over any fears or apprehensions.
    When I travelled on the Vancouver metro system last month I had no idea it was completely automated with no on board staff or drivers until my son told me. It was just so fast, efficient, clean and amazing and each one following each other within minutes
    and @JosiasJessop

    Ah, interesting. Thanks for that info, I didn't know the extent to which both our system was so automated and the success of other automated systems aboard.
    I'd be worried about driverless trains running at high speed. The DLR travels at a very sedate pace.
    Automatic trains are really nothing to worry about. But, for the forseeable future, all mainline trains will have human drivers in them, even if they don't do very much.
    On very high speed trains like the TGV at full pelt, the driver is pretty much window dressing, and can't react as the computers if a sudden stop is required. Where humans are still needed is the interfaces between effectively automated and legacy tracks. It was the failure of the human driver to correctly supervise that transition, and slow at a curve coming off the high-speed line, that caused the accident in Spain a few years ago.

    Even on traditional tracks, at high speed there is little the human can do to stop a disaster. I recall a Virgin Trains crash a few years back with fortunately few serious injuries where Branson praised his driver for "staying at the wheel" and "keeping the train on the tracks" when in reality the driver himself said that all he could do was hang on for dear life until the train stopped moving.
    Yes, on a high speed train the driver is often not a lot more than the first guy at the scene of the accident.

    You're also right about the transition phase of operation, where dedicated HS lines need to enter the cities and interact with the rest of the rail system. He's also useful in the event of an incursion onto the track, as being the guy able to raise the alarm but sadly too many end up in counselling after some selfish **** jumps in front of the train.

    The recent fatal accident in Croydon was again the transition from rail lines to tram lines, the human driver not slowing sufficiently for a very sharp bend.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Venezuela, North Korea?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 25,225

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    Agreed. Do you remember when the Daily Mail accused his dad of hating Britain? No wonder so many don't take them seriously.
    It was a disgrace. When Clegg was doing well before 2010 they tried to smear him with some sort of Nazi stuff. I don't think they get how much this turns a lot of people off.
    Nazi stuff? Clegg? Really?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html

    His quote was:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more than Germany with its memories of Nazism," he had written. "But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."
    I look forward to their expose of the DUP/UDA
    Don't think that quote by Clegg merited that DM front page headline at all.

    As you say, very interesting they aren't outraged about the DUP, given some of their views on creationism and homosexuality,
    The DM has a record, from long ago, of supporting genuine Nazis.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    tyson said:

    Nile Rogers is great

    Indeed he is. Behind literally hundreds of hits over four decades.

    Playing at Glastonbury tonight?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    Sandpit said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Venezuela, North Korea?
    I think that is more likely than the France and Germany and Scandanavia we have had quoted on here
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Are you saying Scandinavian countries are led by Marxists
    No, but the Labour manifesto 2 weeks ago was unremarkable in many ways compared to parties across Europe, or indeed the Labour governments of 45, 64 and 76, all of which planned to implement clause 4 and redistribute wealth. No one denies it was to the left of the Blair years.

    Healey was CoEx and a former Communist party member for example.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    Playing at Glastonbury tonight?

    On right now !

    https://twitter.com/bbctwo/status/879054648073760769
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    RobD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    Yorkcity said:

    glw said:

    All that lying by corbyn and McDonnell during the GE, not that the cult care he is still the messiah.

    I honestly think Corbyn and McDonnell are worse than Trump. In the fortnight since the election they have being coming out crackpot stuff at turbo speed. Bring down the government, break the US blockade of Cuba, scrap Trident, and yet more freebies. I find it hard to believe that people who previously supported Miliband, Brown, and Blair are really on side with these two. Being ahead in the polls is one thing, but do Labour supporters of old really agree with them?
    They scare me more than trump, because the founding fathers of the us put in place lots of roadblocks to a nutter getting his way, which trump has already started to find out about.
    Trouble is if you trash every Labour leader the attacks become obsolete to many.For fucks sake many on here and in the media called Milliband a communist and attacked his father for been a Marxist.
    That's exactly it. The boy who cried wolf.
    Agreed. Do you remember when the Daily Mail accused his dad of hating Britain? No wonder so many don't take them seriously.
    It was a disgrace. When Clegg was doing well before 2010 they tried to smear him with some sort of Nazi stuff. I don't think they get how much this turns a lot of people off.
    Nazi stuff? Clegg? Really?
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/election/article-1267921/GENERAL-ELECTION-2010-Nick-Clegg-Nazi-slur-Britain.html

    His quote was:

    "All nations have a cross to bear, and none more than Germany with its memories of Nazism," he had written. "But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off."
    I look forward to their expose of the DUP/UDA
    Don't think that quote by Clegg merited that DM front page headline at all.

    As you say, very interesting they aren't outraged about the DUP, given some of their views on creationism and homosexuality,
    Do you mean the DUP or the views of the current leader of the LibDems?
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    Nile Rogers is great

    Indeed he is. Behind literally hundreds of hits over four decades.

    Playing at Glastonbury tonight?
    Yeah....On Beeb 2....

    Glasto is worth the license fee in itself.....a pure weekend of indulgence for me....
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,822
    edited June 2017
    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tyson said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Italy, or any mainstream European country too...France, Germany and the like...

    The fact that they are viewed as so extreme in the UK is a measure of just how far neo liberal economics has moved the UK to the right....but the times are a changin....
    They are only seen as extreme by parties with no vision of their own.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    rpjs said:

    Sean_F said:

    Miss Apocalypse

    Really? You've never been on the DLR then?

    Nope.
    You would refuse to use it??
    If I have to I probably would, I'd just force myself to get over any fears or apprehensions.
    When I travelled on the Vancouver metro system last month I had no idea it was completely automated with no on board staff or drivers until my son told me. It was just so fast, efficient, clean and amazing and each one following each other within minutes
    and @JosiasJessop

    Ah, interesting. Thanks for that info, I didn't know the extent to which both our system was so automated and the success of other automated systems aboard.
    I'd be worried about driverless trains running at high speed. The DLR travels at a very sedate pace.
    Automatic trains are really nothing to worry about. But, for the forseeable future, all mainline trains will have human drivers in them, even if they don't do very much.
    On very high speed trains like the TGV at full pelt, the driver is pretty much window dressing, and can't react as the computers if a sudden stop is required. Where humans are still needed is the interfaces between effectively automated and legacy tracks. It was the failure of the human driver to correctly supervise that transition, and slow at a curve coming off the high-speed line, that caused the accident in Spain a few years ago.

    Even on traditional tracks, at high speed there is little the human can do to stop a disaster. I recall a Virgin Trains crash a few years back with fortunately few serious injuries where Branson praised his driver for "staying at the wheel" and "keeping the train on the tracks" when in reality the driver himself said that all he could do was hang on for dear life until the train stopped moving.
    In the old days of diesel and electrics, I believe that if the drivers knew a collision was imminent, they could put the brakes on full and retreat into the interior of the driving unit (e.g. in the corridor that runs past an engine, or through the electrical equipment), which was the safest place.

    Once the brakes are on, there is little else they can do except sound the horn, if that would do any good.

    Just look at the following:
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/14/article-0-0A6FD938000005DC-875_634x520.jpg
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    They are not really news are they? He'd get rid of Trident as soon as he can... but unlike TMay he doesn't decide his party's policies alone. As soon as he can might be never.

    As PM he has unilateral authority over the subs. The first action of a new PM is to write to the sub commanders giving them instructions.

    Nobody can stop those instructions being, return to base permanently.

    Trident effectively decommissioned.
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Are you saying Scandinavian countries are led by Marxists
    No, but the Labour manifesto 2 weeks ago was unremarkable in many ways compared to parties across Europe, or indeed the Labour governments of 45, 64 and 76, all of which planned to implement clause 4 and redistribute wealth. No one denies it was to the left of the Blair years.

    Healey was CoEx and a former Communist party member for example.
    I'm trying to download the "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chant for my iPhone...does anyone have a link?
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited June 2017
    tyson said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Are you saying Scandinavian countries are led by Marxists
    No, but the Labour manifesto 2 weeks ago was unremarkable in many ways compared to parties across Europe, or indeed the Labour governments of 45, 64 and 76, all of which planned to implement clause 4 and redistribute wealth. No one denies it was to the left of the Blair years.

    Healey was CoEx and a former Communist party member for example.
    I'm trying to download the "Oh Jeremy Corbyn" chant for my iPhone...does anyone have a link?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 24,566


    The DM has a record, from long ago, of supporting genuine Nazis.

    Whilst I would not let the Mail in my house and detest it as a rag not fit to be regarded as a comic, this is not because of its past support for fascism but because of its current policies. If I wanted to attack newspapers because of their past I would also want to include the paper that wrote:

    "Give the Blackshirts a helping hand".

    and

    "As a purely British organisation, the Blackshirts will respect those principles of tolerance which are traditional in British politics,"
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.

    Creationism, homophobia and similar are also unremarkable in politicians across Africa, parts of both Americas, Middle East and parts of Eurasia. There is a lot of pearl clutching going on over the subject.

    These politicians should be allowed but their views severely critiqued. Few of them are without some redeeming qualities,and beyond reforming.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?
    Scotland regarding no nukes.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    Nile Rogers is great

    Indeed he is. Behind literally hundreds of hits over four decades.

    Playing at Glastonbury tonight?
    Yeah....On Beeb 2....

    Glasto is worth the license fee in itself.....a pure weekend of indulgence for me....
    The licence fee? What fee?
    I don't pay anything to YouTube and its all there.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893
    Scott_P said:

    They are not really news are they? He'd get rid of Trident as soon as he can... but unlike TMay he doesn't decide his party's policies alone. As soon as he can might be never.

    As PM he has unilateral authority over the subs. The first action of a new PM is to write to the sub commanders giving them instructions.

    Nobody can stop those instructions being, return to base permanently.

    Trident effectively decommissioned.
    It wouldnt keep me awake at night tbh
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893
    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?

    Denmark
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:

    They are not really news are they? He'd get rid of Trident as soon as he can... but unlike TMay he doesn't decide his party's policies alone. As soon as he can might be never.

    As PM he has unilateral authority over the subs. The first action of a new PM is to write to the sub commanders giving them instructions.

    Nobody can stop those instructions being, return to base permanently.

    Trident effectively decommissioned.
    The government has to order the missiles to be fired, so if it doesn't, they won't be. The letters you mention are the so-called last resort letters in case the submarines lose contact (presumably because Britain has been destroyed); the submarines could be ordered to return to base (and often there is only one on patrol anyway) but that is a separate question. It is hard to imagine any situation when we'd want to fire them, that would not also involve the United States.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    Fox

    I think that's right. The Labour manifesto was surprisingly moderate. I found myself agreeing with many of its policies
  • kurtjesterkurtjester Posts: 121
    edited June 2017
    Scott_P said:

    They are not really news are they? He'd get rid of Trident as soon as he can... but unlike TMay he doesn't decide his party's policies alone. As soon as he can might be never.

    As PM he has unilateral authority over the subs. The first action of a new PM is to write to the sub commanders giving them instructions.

    Nobody can stop those instructions being, return to base permanently.

    Trident effectively decommissioned.
    Bunkum.

    The letters are held in a safe on board each boat and are only to be opened in the event that all communications have been lost with the UK, and following attempts to confirm that the country has been on the receiving end of a surprise attack. They are advisory, the submarine's commander always has full authority over the release of the weapons. That is a key part of the deterrent system.

    When a new PM is appointed, the previous one's letters are removed and destroyed without being opened.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 30,219

    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.

    Cameron's Conservatives were well to the Right of the Democrats on immigration, and issues of identity politics. But, really US and UK politics don't match very well.
  • CornishJohnCornishJohn Posts: 304

    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.

    Theresa May's Conservatives won 2.3 million votes more than David Cameron's. The change in seats was due to Jeremy Corbyn being a better politician at uniting the left than Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband.

    Neither result has much to do with the degree of collegiality with the Republicans.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited June 2017
    tyson said:

    Sandpit said:

    tyson said:

    Nile Rogers is great

    Indeed he is. Behind literally hundreds of hits over four decades.

    Playing at Glastonbury tonight?
    Yeah....On Beeb 2....

    Glasto is worth the license fee in itself.....a pure weekend of indulgence for me....
    Cool, will catch up tomorrow.

    I guess the licence fee is less than the price of a ticket, and one doesn't need to deal with the Portaloos and F&B rip offs if watching on telly!

    I saw Rodgers maybe three years ago, with his big band playing all the hits at a beach party in the sandpit. To call him a crowd pleaser would be a massive understatement!
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 150

    Casino.

    You are happy to make a pact with a party that has known links to the UDA?

    It seems there is no price too high for some Tories.

    If Labour proposed a similar pact to get into office, you'd be cheering them to the rafters.
    Nope. I think all the NI parties should be avoided as the sectarian nasties they are.
    Im sure the Alliance party will appreciate your stance
    They have no MPs. I'm taking about SF/IRA and DUP/UDA
    Naomi Long was an MP 2010-2015 for E Belfast and took the seat from DUP leader Peter Robinson

    you havent actually a clue what youre talking about

    SF is the politial wing of the IRA the PUP is the political wing of the UDA\UVF

    you just post non stop bollocks

    Worth watching Newsnight last week.

    The PUP is specifically left wing unionist sectarian party, the DUP right wing. Both have links to loyalist terrorists.
    You do know Arlene Foster's father was shot and severely injured by the IRA when he was a member of the RUC reservists and as a teenager she was on a school bus that was bombed by the IRA and the girl sitting near her was seriously injured.

    Your prejeudice does you no favours - maybe if your Father had been attacked and you had been in a vehicle blown up by the IRA you may have gained some understanding and sympathy
    Yes, I am aware of this. That doesn't excuse their links with another scumbag paramilitary group
    Just give up - you are losing it - they will support the conservative government and there is nothing you can do or say that will prevent it
    So the only problem with the IRA is that Sinn Fein won't give the Tory Party confidence and supply?

  • CornishJohnCornishJohn Posts: 304

    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?

    Denmark
    Denmark famously stripped refugees of their valuable items to pay for their housing. A Corbyn government wouldn't even consider that costs for things have to come from somewhere. Venezuela is the best example. It would start off with wonderful services and grants to everyone. It would end with financial crisis and the hardline McDonnells pushing aside the softer Corbyns to defend the revolution.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    You really have no idea how toxic corporation tax at that level would be do you. Most countries want to reduce corporation tax including France to 25%, US 15% and Ireland is already at 12.5% hence why the DUP want further reductions to compete with Ireland.

    Furthermore the IFS traduced labours tax and spend plans and no other party wants an increase in corporation tax beyond 20%
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,822
    edited June 2017

    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.

    Theresa May's Conservatives won 2.3 million votes more than David Cameron's. The change in seats was due to Jeremy Corbyn being a better politician at uniting the left than Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband.

    Neither result has much to do with the degree of collegiality with the Republicans.
    In FPTP vote share does not matter as much as seat share. And on that note, she lost the only majority the Tories have won in a generation. Going on about vote share is a bit like Corbynistas insisting they 'won' the GE.

    My point in regard to the Republicans is that only a moderate, One Nation Conservatism has been able to win GEs. May moving to the right - signalled by the Hard Brexit rhetoric and aligning with the Republicans - does not win GEs in this country.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523

    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?

    Denmark
    Denmark famously stripped refugees of their valuable items to pay for their housing. A Corbyn government wouldn't even consider that costs for things have to come from somewhere. Venezuela is the best example. It would start off with wonderful services and grants to everyone. It would end with financial crisis and the hardline McDonnells pushing aside the softer Corbyns to defend the revolution.
    Watch out enemies of the State

    "In Venezuela, prisoners say abuse is so bad they are forced to eat pasta mixed with excrement"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-venezuela-prisoners-say-abuse-is-so-bad-they-are-forced-to-eat-pasta-mixed-with-excrement/2017/06/23/39a0c85e-4acb-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.6aa4ecf033a6
  • kurtjesterkurtjester Posts: 121
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice.

    You'll notice when jobs are shed to reduce costs, and the price of goods rise. It would cripple investment by business.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 34,963
    edited June 2017
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?

    Denmark
    Denmark famously stripped refugees of their valuable items to pay for their housing. A Corbyn government wouldn't even consider that costs for things have to come from somewhere. Venezuela is the best example. It would start off with wonderful services and grants to everyone. It would end with financial crisis and the hardline McDonnells pushing aside the softer Corbyns to defend the revolution.
    Watch out enemies of the State

    "In Venezuela, prisoners say abuse is so bad they are forced to eat pasta mixed with excrement"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-venezuela-prisoners-say-abuse-is-so-bad-they-are-forced-to-eat-pasta-mixed-with-excrement/2017/06/23/39a0c85e-4acb-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.6aa4ecf033a6
    But Glastonbury Jezza loves the place!
    (From more recently than you might think, before his handlers dragged him through a tailor)
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=HDaUHEP4wdI
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 17,893

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    You really have no idea how toxic corporation tax at that level would be do you. Most countries want to reduce corporation tax including France to 25%, US 15% and Ireland is already at 12.5% hence why the DUP want further reductions to compete with Ireland.

    Furthermore the IFS traduced labours tax and spend plans and no other party wants an increase in corporation tax beyond 20%
    Was it toxic at that 26% or above before 2012? Is it toxic at 35% in USA or 34% in France?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 68,477

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    You really have no idea how toxic corporation tax at that level would be do you. Most countries want to reduce corporation tax including France to 25%, US 15% and Ireland is already at 12.5% hence why the DUP want further reductions to compete with Ireland.

    Furthermore the IFS traduced labours tax and spend plans and no other party wants an increase in corporation tax beyond 20%
    I think it should be 20%. Certainly it shouldn't be lower than the basic rate of tax in my view, Labour's plan to stick it up to 26% is a nonsense though.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    rcs1000 said:

    For now...

    If you want a nightmare vision of the future, imagine Radiohead playing - forever.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.


    Hitler used socialism to get into power.

  • Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Their politics would be unremarkable in Scandinavia over the last century.
    Are you saying Scandinavian countries are led by Marxists
    No, but the Labour manifesto 2 weeks ago was unremarkable in many ways compared to parties across Europe, or indeed the Labour governments of 45, 64 and 76, all of which planned to implement clause 4 and redistribute wealth. No one denies it was to the left of the Blair years.

    Healey was CoEx and a former Communist party member for example.
    You are right. Their policies are unremarkable in many European countries. But the difference is that many of those countries have structural support for many of the social spending areas whereas we pay for everything out of current tax income. If we up the tax rates, increase corporation tax, etc. we will end up cutting tax income and have nothing to fall back on other than more borrowing. That will just blow up in our faces - we would be more like Greece than Denmark.

    The only way out of this mess is to grow our economy and focus on increasing productivity, find answers to how people can work longer but ease into retirement, and try to stop the stupidity of welfare where work doesn't pay. And look at the idiocy of housing bubbles and personal debt levels.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice.

    You'll notice when jobs are shed to reduce costs, and the price of goods rise. It would cripple investment by business.
    Yes -- we haven't seen rates as high as 26 per cent since George Osborne was Chancellor.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308
    Pulpstar said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    You really have no idea how toxic corporation tax at that level would be do you. Most countries want to reduce corporation tax including France to 25%, US 15% and Ireland is already at 12.5% hence why the DUP want further reductions to compete with Ireland.

    Furthermore the IFS traduced labours tax and spend plans and no other party wants an increase in corporation tax beyond 20%
    I think it should be 20%. Certainly it shouldn't be lower than the basic rate of tax in my view, Labour's plan to stick it up to 26% is a nonsense though.
    I actually agree with that and would hope that in the Autumn the Chancellor will give it thought to provide headroom to increase the pay of the NHS staff and emergency services.

    It would receive a lot of support though maybe not from the DUP
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 26,210
    Off-topic:

    SpaceX might be launching another rocket in about twelve minutes. Watch it here:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tIwZg8F9b8

    Landing the first stage might be iffy due to the weather.
  • isamisam Posts: 38,523
    Sandpit said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government

    Zimbabwe/Venezuela?

    Denmark
    Denmark famously stripped refugees of their valuable items to pay for their housing. A Corbyn government wouldn't even consider that costs for things have to come from somewhere. Venezuela is the best example. It would start off with wonderful services and grants to everyone. It would end with financial crisis and the hardline McDonnells pushing aside the softer Corbyns to defend the revolution.
    Watch out enemies of the State

    "In Venezuela, prisoners say abuse is so bad they are forced to eat pasta mixed with excrement"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/in-venezuela-prisoners-say-abuse-is-so-bad-they-are-forced-to-eat-pasta-mixed-with-excrement/2017/06/23/39a0c85e-4acb-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.6aa4ecf033a6
    But Glastonbury Jezza loves the place!
    (From more recently than you might think, before his handlers dragged him through a tailor)
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=HDaUHEP4wdI
    Fantastic! He calls the Daily Mail a reverse indicator, then goes on to predict how Venezuela will become prosperous, with the wealth equally shared. What happened? It costs Farmers more to produce food than they get for selling it, prisoners are eating shit, half the population are starving or ill!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4zNU6ciJM8
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 46,308

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    You really have no idea how toxic corporation tax at that level would be do you. Most countries want to reduce corporation tax including France to 25%, US 15% and Ireland is already at 12.5% hence why the DUP want further reductions to compete with Ireland.

    Furthermore the IFS traduced labours tax and spend plans and no other party wants an increase in corporation tax beyond 20%
    Was it toxic at that 26% or above before 2012? Is it toxic at 35% in USA or 34% in France?
    Times have changed and Brexit calls for attractive corporation tax rates to retain and attract business. Corbyn's public sector does not create wealth, it is the private sector and business tgat generates the wealth.

    US about to come to 15% and Macron has said France will reduce to 25%. And do not ignore Ireland at 12.5%
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    For now...

    If you want a nightmare vision of the future, imagine Radiohead playing - forever.
    I re-watched the Radiohead set this morning again whilst doing the ironing....pure brilliance....

    Their gig last week in Florence was the best I have ever seen by a country mile...and I've been to a fair few gigs...infact off to watch the Flaming Lips tomorrow night....
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,103
    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    The rest of the world has moved on....
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 38,629

    Greatest strategic blunder since Stalingrad, surely.

    There have been major strategic blunders since Singapore, Saddam invading Kuwait for example. If we stick to purely British errors then both Suez and Gulf War 2 must be in the same league, and the retreat from Basra as humiliating as Singapore.
    Stalingrad was far bloodier though. Germany was on the back foot from that point on.
  • CornishJohnCornishJohn Posts: 304

    @foxinsoxuk

    I did think the DUP had significant parallels with the US Republicans. Much of what they offer wouldn't hold much appeal in many other parts of the Western world.

    I remember there was quite a bit of upset among some of the more rabid Atlanticists that Cameron's Conservatives were more closer to the Democrats that the Republicans - or at least there was a perception among some that they were. But that Conservative Party delivered them their only majority in twenty five years. Meanwhile May's Conservative Party which she proclaimed as being the sister Party to the Republicans lost that majority.

    American Conservatives apparently love Nigel Farage - says it all, really.

    Theresa May's Conservatives won 2.3 million votes more than David Cameron's. The change in seats was due to Jeremy Corbyn being a better politician at uniting the left than Gordon Brown or Ed Miliband.

    Neither result has much to do with the degree of collegiality with the Republicans.
    In FPTP vote share does not matter as much as seat share. And on that note, she lost the only majority the Tories have won in a generation. Going on about vote share is a bit like Corbynistas insisting they 'won' the GE.

    My point in regard to the Republicans is that only a moderate, One Nation Conservatism has been able to win GEs. May moving to the right - signalled by the Hard Brexit rhetoric and aligning with the Republicans - does not win GEs in this country.
    It is not like the Corbynista claim because Corbyn lost the election on vote share, by about 700,000 votes. Seats matter the most in First Past the Post because it is a contest between two parties, but the number of votes shows the strength of each individual party in that contest.
  • RadioheadRadiohead Posts: 17
    tyson said:

    Scott_P said:

    rcs1000 said:

    For now...

    If you want a nightmare vision of the future, imagine Radiohead playing - forever.
    I re-watched the Radiohead set this morning again whilst doing the ironing....pure brilliance....

    Their gig last week in Florence was the best I have ever seen by a country mile...and I've been to a fair few gigs...infact off to watch the Flaming Lips tomorrow night....
    I, for one, welcome our new Radiohead Overlords!
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017
    Excuse the embed, but this is quite brilliant;

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qOyT3ZkUxI
  • tysontyson Posts: 5,979
    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Corbyn, McDonnell manifesto does not even compare to the Labour manifesto of even the 70's and before , let alone 1945.

    26% Corporation Tax would hardly make anyone sit up and take notice. The Rail nationalisation would have taken place only when the individual franchises ended.

    The rest of the world has moved on....
    The times are a changin Mortimer..they really are...neo liberal capitalism is well and truly kefuckered...leading to inequality and huge social injustice....and I really do believe the Tories will be left behind as the world moves on....

    The next arguments will be about universal income, equality and human rights as advanced economies rely more on automation...here Corbyn too is well and truly behind the curve too
This discussion has been closed.