The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one.
You aren't drifting back towards Labour are you?
I wish the party well, but it is not my one anymore. I don't like the direction it's taking. The left owns it now and I just don't see the world in the same way.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government
Zimbabwe/Venezuela?
Denmark
Denmark, is one of the most wonderfully free market nations of the whole would. It has no minimum wage, and is the easiest nation in the EU for employers to get rid of worker they do not want. They even abolished their 'telicomes regulator' relising that nothing was better than an totally unregulated telicomes market. if the UK lowed the excessive regulation of the child care industry to the level of Denmark, parents would be able to save a fortune. Probably the most important area is education where 40% of danish schools children go to Free Schools.
I am a border line Anarco-Capitalist, hence by Avatar, but frankly a strongly Neo-Liberal Denmark type situation is a good second to me.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Now that I live here I get v annoyed at the rubbish written about Denmark as some socialist paradise - Danes work through a highly devolved system with strong communitarian roots - they don't like or want overmighty government. They also are willing to defend their wlfare state by reserving large parts of it to Danish citizens only - it's a much misunderstood country in the Uk
I have some very good memory's of a visit and shot romance in Copenhagen about 10 years ago, hope its still just as nice there.
I think that a lot of people loot at the overall tax as a % of GDP and make inaccurate assumptions. There is a huge difference between the government taking a lot of tax, but then given it back to people to spend on there own priority, getting the best value they can on all they chose to buy. and the government spending the money itself, employing a lot of people to empower politicians and bureaucrats, on what they think 'the People' should want.
I was in Copenhagen last year, and it is as lovely as ever.
Scandinavian politics has become less Socialist over the last decade or so, but remains far more socially progressive than the Tories are here, and is more in tune though not identical to Corbynism.
Teresa May is tacking the Tory's so far from Free Markets, that she (almost) feels like socialist to me!!!
With the one exception of the overall tax rate, Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia are nothing like Corbynisum. (and even there the taxes are the oppose of what Corbyn want)
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
Probably better as "Volksempfaengerkopf". You see Nazi Germany had a "thing" about Teutonic origins of words and radio was well "a bit foreign" ( Greek??), hence Volksempfaenger or "people's receiver". Linguistic bollocks of course, but oddly some did stick like "Fernsehen" ("farseeing") still today, the German for television, and for that matter Volkswagen or "people's car".
Probably better as "Volksempfaengerkopf". You see Nazi Germany had a "thing" about Teutonic origins of words and radio was well "a bit foreign" ( Greek??), hence Volksempfaenger or "people's receiver". Linguistic bollocks of course, but oddly some did stick like "Fernsehen" ("farseeing") still today, the German for television, and for that matter Volkswagen or "people's car".
Retreats back under stone.
Awesome.
Thank you. And utterly bleeding pointless on my part!
Can anyone identify a Country that would be similar in politics to a Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott, Thornberry government
Zimbabwe/Venezuela?
Denmark
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Now that I live here I get v annoyed at the rubbish written about Denmark as some socialist paradise - Danes work through a highly devolved system with strong communitarian roots - they don't like or want overmighty government. They also are willing to defend their wlfare state by reserving large parts of it to Danish citizens only - it's a much misunderstood country in the Uk
I have some very good memory's of a visit and shot romance in Copenhagen about 10 years ago, hope its still just as nice there.
I think that a lot of people loot at the overall tax as a % of GDP and make inaccurate assumptions. There is a huge difference between the government taking a lot of tax, but then given it back to people to spend on there own priority, getting the best value they can on all they chose to buy. and the government spending the money itself, employing a lot of people to empower politicians and bureaucrats, on what they think 'the People' should want.
I was in Copenhagen last year, and it is as lovely as ever.
Scandinavian politics has become less Socialist over the last decade or so, but remains far more socially progressive than the Tories are here, and is more in tune though not identical to Corbynism.
There are liberal enclaves that remind me of Scandinavia....Oxford central, Norwich south, Clifton, Cambridge.....cycle lanes, green space, lack of ostentation (and obvious Tories)...better weather and better pubs mind...
Norwich is lovely. I got fond of it while Fox Jr was at UEA, and Mrs Fox wants us to retire there. I expect we will (though may depend a bit on where Jr settles, as he is back in Leicester at present).
I think Berlin would be my favourite European city to live in, though Copenhagen, Stockholm, Barcelona, and Rome would also feature.
Barcelona is overrun by tourists. It's like Venice these days.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Did they have the Free Schools when you where there? or did they come after you left? ether way what do you think of them?
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one.
You aren't drifting back towards Labour are you?
I wish the party well, but it is not my one anymore. I don't like the direction it's taking. The left owns it now and I just don't see the world in the same way.
Thank God for that. I'd be really worried if sensible Labour supporters start falling under Corbyn's spell.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
But the tories tell us we have to have a low tax and spend regime to encourage wealth creation - not in Scandanavia apparently.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Did they have the Free Schools when you where there? or did they come after you left? ether way what do you think of them?
Denmark has public spending close to 50% of GDP. Almost one of the happiest places on earth. Other Scandinavian countries are broadly similar.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Did they have the Free Schools when you where there? or did they come after you left? ether way what do you think of them?
Denmark has public spending close to 50% of GDP. Almost one of the happiest places on earth. Other Scandinavian countries are broadly similar.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
Corbyn is not offering us 1970'2 style Socialism, he is offering us 21st Century socialism -Venezuelan Style!!
But overall I agree, the crawdes are cheering Corbyn not because of what he is selling, but because he is selling something, and to a degree that something is just 'idealism' itself and him off course, look at both Trump in the US and Macron in France, all 3 men, outsiders, they talk in a way that is different to how politicians normally talk! and they all use big ralleys
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
In the 00's the nordic model was seen as a failing and unsustainable, when I studied it at university. All that has changed is that the other systems proved to be worse. People do see what they want. My experience of scandinavia is that it costs 35 euros to get your bin emptied. You pay massively for prescriptions etc and there is nothing like NHS levels of free healthcare. In many ways the state is much stronger though. Jobs are much more secure. The trade unions are integrated in to decision making. They are not very open societies despite how they may appear, it is almost impossible to truly integrate in to them if you are an outsider. I don't think it is a neoliberal paradise.
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
I am over for the gin festival in a couple of weeks, staying with friends just off the Unthank road. We were planning for Latitude, but not very taken with the lineup. Public Service Broadcasting are on the Sunday programme. Latitude is the ultimate Guardian readers festival, like Norwich in tents.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
I do get the anger with the way things are, I totally get it. I'm just not in favour of burning down the house because it needs a lot of work. Seizing on the first "alternative" to come along is not smart, and down right dangerous if you grab onto something bad.
Look at Trump for an almost perfect example. Clinton was toxic (and rightly so in my opinion), the Republicans were pushing people like Jeb and Rubio, and Trump barged his way in confounding all the experts. Trump is singularly unqualified to do the job, combining ignorance, stubbornness, and rudeness in a way that will likely make people like Richard Nixon be more favourably remembered.
Why can't we have a Macron not a Corbyn? Damn the French, they've beaten us again!
@CornishJohn David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one.
You aren't drifting back towards Labour are you?
I wish the party well, but it is not my one anymore. I don't like the direction it's taking. The left owns it now and I just don't see the world in the same way.
Thank God for that. I'd be really worried if sensible Labour supporters start falling under Corbyn's spell.
Susie Boniface of the Daily Mirror on Sky newspaper review distinctly unimpressed with Corbyn who she says is only talking in his own echo chamber
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Denmark and Scandinavia in general are very different nations compared to the UK. Education is not sneered at by the Left in those countries the way it is here, and neither is private enterprise or self reliance.
The Left's mentality here in the UK is the promotion of the lowest common denominator, and it always has been. I can't think of any other advanced economy where individuals are compelled to feel guilty for doing well.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
I do get the anger with the way things are, I totally get it. I'm just not in favour of burning down the house because it needs a lot of work. Seizing on the first "alternative" to come along is not smart, and down right dangerous if you grab onto something bad.
Look at Trump for an almost perfect example. Clinton was toxic (and rightly so in my opinion), the Republicans were pushing people like Jeb and Rubio, and Trump barged his way in confounding all the experts. Trump is singularly unqualified to do the job, combining ignorance, stubbornness, and rudeness in a way that will likely make people like Richard Nixon be more favourably remembered.
Why can't we have a Macron not a Corbyn? Damn the French, they've beaten us again!
Maybe they have beaten us - time will tell, I guess. But to my mind we are 20 years ahead of France. Macron is more like a French Tony Blair (and I am not a Blair hater, though he screwed up on Iraq).
As neilh said, people are rejecting the market knows best and small state neoliberalism. I really do think it's a sea-change.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Did they have the Free Schools when you where there? or did they come after you left? ether way what do you think of them?
Denmark has public spending close to 50% of GDP. Almost one of the happiest places on earth. Other Scandinavian countries are broadly similar.
As already noted Denmark has High taxes, but as I have also noted:
1) In all other respects they are very free market. 2) high tax is better than big deficits 3) The tax they use, A land Value Tax, high VAT and fairly high Income tax, are not nearly as bad as high Corporation tax 4) The slightly higher speeding is much better used because a lot is given to individuals to spend themselves, not by government burocrates.
@CornishJohn David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
Letting this 'the Tory manifesto isn't even costed!!!' meme persist was foolish. What massive costs did it promise? It was a retrenching manifesto that didn't give away the moon on a stick so didn't need to be costed.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
I do get the anger with the way things are, I totally get it. I'm just not in favour of burning down the house because it needs a lot of work. Seizing on the first "alternative" to come along is not smart, and down right dangerous if you grab onto something bad.
Look at Trump for an almost perfect example. Clinton was toxic (and rightly so in my opinion), the Republicans were pushing people like Jeb and Rubio, and Trump barged his way in confounding all the experts. Trump is singularly unqualified to do the job, combining ignorance, stubbornness, and rudeness in a way that will likely make people like Richard Nixon be more favourably remembered.
Why can't we have a Macron not a Corbyn? Damn the French, they've beaten us again!
I agree, Corbyn's left wing populism is as self destructive as Trumps or the Brexiteers.
In a forced choice I would still vote Labour over Tory. Tory party policies are as destructive, but also without hope.
@CornishJohn David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
I am over for the gin festival in a couple of weeks, staying with friends just off the Unthank road. We were planning for Latitude, but not very taken with the lineup. Public Service Broadcasting are on the Sunday programme. Latitude is the ultimate Guardian readers festival, like Norwich in tents.
We live off the Unthank Road......I've got tickets for PSB at the students union later in the year...I haven't the stamina for festivals....
I didn't know about the gin festival??? It'd be nice to meet to meet up again if you are out for a drink (after Broxtowe two years ago).....I'm in Italy the weekend of the 8th, but otherwise.....
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
Miss A, can i ask why you always seem to bring up republicans? Are you studying US politics? Genuinely interested.
As neilh said, people are rejecting the market knows best and small state neoliberalism. I really do think it's a sea-change.
That is possible, in fact I've long felt that liberal economics and democracy are not going to endure, we will find it increasingly hard to compete with authoritarian governments that are mastering capitalism. In the end we will say "we want that as well" and being able to boot out the government every five years will go, either because of the law changing or we end up with de facto one party government. We will be well off, but we will be less free.
O/T but JC's hypocrisy is really starting to grate. He could not wait to get round to Grenfell to show how caring he was and show the meanness of the Tories.
Now that we have a situation in Camden where residents are being woken up at 2am to get out of their flats with accommodation being an inflatable bed in a leisure centre, whilst others are apparently being intimidated by security guards, there is...nothing.
If this was a Tory council doing this, we would not hear the last of it but because it is caring Labour, nothing. Instead JC is too busy "aceing the chorus" at Glastonbury to show his face.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
But the Market does know best! the market, the invisible hand of the market, is just us, each of us contributing our preferences and skills, are chooses and our knowledge, in collaboration with everybody else, constrained by the phisicale realty of would in which we live.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
Just done first leg of flight back to London from Singapore and waiting in lounge in Dubai. On that leg though watches the entire first series of the French political drama Baron Noir..bloody brilliant and some very interesting parrallels with whats been going on here...
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
I'm broadly in agreement with you Neil. It's been a very long time since Britain had a genuinely left wing government and ours is a political system that is designed to be a bit neurotic. No grand coalitions please! It still isn't clear to me though whether the left simply desire to undermine authority or if they really want to lead.
Give me Barry Gibb and Chic's up beat and feel good pop any day over Radiohead's suicide-by-melancholy dirge-fest. Fucking dreadful. As for Ed Sheeran, I'd kick that carrot topped cunny from her to Land's End.
Pretty abysmal Glastonbury overall, with one or two gems.
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Why do you think she is damaged goods ?
For lots of reasons, but not that one. The idea that the Labour manifesto was fiscally responsible and the Conservative one wasn't is utterly bat-shit crazy.
@CornishJohn David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
Letting this 'the Tory manifesto isn't even costed!!!' meme persist was foolish. What massive costs did it promise? It was a retrenching manifesto that didn't give away the moon on a stick so didn't need to be costed.
Except, not costing it allowed the 'Tory manifesto isn't even costed!!!' meme to persist through to GE day. So maybe it did need to be costed :-)
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
But the Market does know best! the market, the invisible hand of the market, is just us, each of us contributing our preferences and skills, are chooses and our knowledge, in collaboration with everybody else, constrained by the phisicale realty of would in which we live.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
No, it does not know best.
The market is not interested in the 'mutual benefit of all' but profit.
Ed smashing it here. If anyone needs any proof of his popularity, take a look at the single charts from a couple of months back.
His songs are bland, boring and all sound the same. Unless you are a teenage girl I cannot see what his wider interest is.
Radiohead didn't chart any singles and look how brilliant they are. Ed Sheeran headlining marks a low point for the festival and will not be repeated anytime soon
@CornishJohn David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
Letting this 'the Tory manifesto isn't even costed!!!' meme persist was foolish. What massive costs did it promise? It was a retrenching manifesto that didn't give away the moon on a stick so didn't need to be costed.
Except, not costing it allowed the 'Tory manifesto isn't even costed!!!' meme to persist through to GE day. So maybe it did need to be costed :-)
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Her immigration policy for a start.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Good try, but she wasn't introducing policies to reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, so there was nothing to cost. She was saying it remained a long-term goal, and quite right too - we simply cannot continue indefinitely increasing the population through immigration by the numbers we've seen over the past twenty years or so, just as we can't continue with the triple lock for ever. Compound interest eventually gets you.
Ed smashing it here. If anyone needs any proof of his popularity, take a look at the single charts from a couple of months back.
His songs are bland, boring and all sound the same. Unless you are a teenage girl I cannot see what his wider interest is.
Radiohead didn't chart any singles and look how brilliant they are. Ed Sheeran headlining marks a low point for the festival and will not be repeated anytime soon
As neilh said, people are rejecting the market knows best and small state neoliberalism. I really do think it's a sea-change.
That is possible, in fact I've long felt that liberal economics and democracy are not going to endure, we will find it increasingly hard to compete with authoritarian governments that are mastering capitalism. In the end we will say "we want that as well" and being able to boot out the government every five years will go, either because of the law changing or we end up with de facto one party government. We will be well off, but we will be less free.
Interesting, but that's not the way I see it going. Scandanavian model more likely I think (and hope)
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
Miss A, can i ask why you always seem to bring up republicans? Are you studying US politics? Genuinely interested.
I don't always bring up Republicans - I've mostly talked about Corbyn and May on here for the last couple of months. I mentioned them a few times in the last couple of days, main reason is that on my Twitter timeline I've been seeing American reactions to our GE over the past couple of weeks and some misguided American Conservative takes on our situation.
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
I am over for the gin festival in a couple of weeks, staying with friends just off the Unthank road. We were planning for Latitude, but not very taken with the lineup. Public Service Broadcasting are on the Sunday programme. Latitude is the ultimate Guardian readers festival, like Norwich in tents.
We live off the Unthank Road......I've got tickets for PSB at the students union later in the year...I haven't the stamina for festivals....
I didn't know about the gin festival??? It'd be nice to meet to meet up again if you are out for a drink (after Broxtowe two years ago).....I'm in Italy the weekend of the 8th, but otherwise.....
Ed smashing it here. If anyone needs any proof of his popularity, take a look at the single charts from a couple of months back.
His songs are bland, boring and all sound the same. Unless you are a teenage girl I cannot see what his wider interest is.
Radiohead didn't chart any singles and look how brilliant they are. Ed Sheeran headlining marks a low point for the festival and will not be repeated anytime soon
Radiohead and Sheeran are both low points. I want to feel uplifted after listening to a concert, not suicidal.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
Miss A, can i ask why you always seem to bring up republicans? Are you studying US politics? Genuinely interested.
I don't always bring up Republicans - I've mostly talked about Corbyn and May on here for the last couple of months. I mentioned them a few times in the last couple of days, main reason is that on my Twitter timeline I've been seeing American reactions to our GE over the past couple of weeks and some misguided American Conservative takes on our situation.
I'm genuinely not having a go. The twitter explanation makes sense. Ta!
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Her immigration policy for a start.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Exactly....the whole push on a hard Brexit was in the pursuit of ideological interests at the expense of the economy...
The Tories, playing fast and loose with the economy to resolve their party differences, should not be allowed anywhere near governing the country. They are little more than reckless vandals....
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Her immigration policy for a start.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Good try, but she wasn't introducing policies to reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, so there was nothing to cost. She was saying it remained a long-term goal, and quite right too - we simply cannot continue indefinitely increasing the population through immigration by the numbers we've seen over the past twenty years or so, just as we can't continue with the triple lock for ever. Compound interest eventually gets you.
'Good try', LOL.
If it's an 'aim' then that means she eventually wants to put it into practice and thus means that it is in effect a policy. They are just calling it an 'aim' because they've struggled to meet the target when it actually was a official policy in the previous Conservative manifestos.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
In the 00's the nordic model was seen as a failing and unsustainable, when I studied it at university. All that has changed is that the other systems proved to be worse. People do see what they want. My experience of scandinavia is that it costs 35 euros to get your bin emptied. You pay massively for prescriptions etc and there is nothing like NHS levels of free healthcare. In many ways the state is much stronger though. Jobs are much more secure. The trade unions are integrated in to decision making. They are not very open societies despite how they may appear, it is almost impossible to truly integrate in to them if you are an outsider. I don't think it is a neoliberal paradise.
You say Jobs are secure, and in a way they are but not in the way many people think, it is easy to get get rid of an employee in Denmark than any other EU nation, it just is! but because of that the economy is strong, and company are happy to take on the risk on new workers, which create a tight labor market and therefor company's don't get rid of good employees for frivolous reasons, making jobs secure. It is the way to go!
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Her immigration policy for a start.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Good try, but she wasn't introducing policies to reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, so there was nothing to cost. She was saying it remained a long-term goal, and quite right too - we simply cannot continue indefinitely increasing the population through immigration by the numbers we've seen over the past twenty years or so, just as we can't continue with the triple lock for ever. Compound interest eventually gets you.
'Good try', LOL.
If it's an 'aim' then that means she eventually wants to put it into practice and thus means that it is in effect a policy. They are just calling it an 'aim' because they've struggled to meet the target when it actually was a policy in the previous Conservative manifestos.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
But the Market does know best! the market, the invisible hand of the market, is just us, each of us contributing our preferences and skills, are chooses and our knowledge, in collaboration with everybody else, constrained by the phisicale realty of would in which we live.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
No, it does not know best.
The market is not interested in the 'mutual benefit of all' but profit.
No profit I'm afraid means little will get done. You can regulate and tinker and take edges off to an extent for sure and I'd support that, but, take that incentive away, and things fall apart pdq. Nobody (or vanishingly few) puts their bits on the line for some nebulous "mutual benefit". They do it precisely to be unequal, and that's how most progress happens - for the benefit of us all to boot.
I don't always bring up Republicans - I've mostly talked about Corbyn and May on here for the last couple of months. I mentioned them a few times in the last couple of days, main reason is that on my Twitter timeline I've been seeing American reactions to our GE over the past couple of weeks and some misguided American Conservative takes on our situation.
You do seem to have a very odd idea that somehow the UK Conservative Party is tainted by association with the loonier elements of the US Republican Party, despite the fact that the Conservative Party is broadly similar to the Democratic Party (inasmuch as you can read across between the UK and US) in most of its political positioning.
I wonder what deficit Scandinavian countries typically run, and what deficit McDonnell was proposing to run?
Denmark: budget surpluses of 5% before the financial crash, back to approx zero now. Sweden: about 3% surplus pre-crash, and back in surplus now. Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
In the 00's the nordic model was seen as a failing and unsustainable, when I studied it at university. All that has changed is that the other systems proved to be worse. People do see what they want. My experience of scandinavia is that it costs 35 euros to get your bin emptied. You pay massively for prescriptions etc and there is nothing like NHS levels of free healthcare. In many ways the state is much stronger though. Jobs are much more secure. The trade unions are integrated in to decision making. They are not very open societies despite how they may appear, it is almost impossible to truly integrate in to them if you are an outsider. I don't think it is a neoliberal paradise.
You say Jobs are secure, and in a way they are but not in the way many people think, it is easy to get get rid of an employee in Denmark than any other EU nation, it just is! but because of that the economy is strong, and company are happy to take on the risk on new workers, which create a tight labor market and therefor company's don't get rid of good employees for frivolous reasons, making jobs secure. It is the way to go!
One thing that liberalism has got right is loose labour restrictions. I can't stand all this mandating employers to do things like paternal leave, high minimum wage etc. Create a system that allows for strong growth and the market will provide employers that have to compete for the best workers.
Except if you have a bizarre free movement policy that draws in millions from Europe to stifle wage inflation....
Why should it have been? She wasn't proposing any big change to the public finances. What was there to cost?
Her immigration policy for a start.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Good try, but she wasn't introducing policies to reducing immigration to the tens of thousands, so there was nothing to cost. She was saying it remained a long-term goal, and quite right too - we simply cannot continue indefinitely increasing the population through immigration by the numbers we've seen over the past twenty years or so, just as we can't continue with the triple lock for ever. Compound interest eventually gets you.
'Good try', LOL.
If it's an 'aim' then that means she eventually wants to put it into practice and thus means that it is in effect a policy. They are just calling it an 'aim' because they've struggled to meet the target when it actually was a policy in the previous Conservative manifestos.
So you think.
But there was nothing to cost, which was the point at issue.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
But the Market does know best! the market, the invisible hand of the market, is just us, each of us contributing our preferences and skills, are chooses and our knowledge, in collaboration with everybody else, constrained by the phisicale realty of would in which we live.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
No, it does not know best.
The market is not interested in the 'mutual benefit of all' but profit.
No profit I'm afraid means little will get done. You can regulate and tinker and take edges off to an extent for sure and I'd support that, but, take that incentive away, and things fall apart pdq. Nobody (or vanishingly few) puts their bits on the line for some nebulous "mutual benefit". They do it precisely to be unequal, and that's how most progress happens - for the benefit of us all to boot.
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
I am over for the gin festival in a couple of weeks, staying with friends just off the Unthank road. We were planning for Latitude, but not very taken with the lineup. Public Service Broadcasting are on the Sunday programme. Latitude is the ultimate Guardian readers festival, like Norwich in tents.
We live off the Unthank Road......I've got tickets for PSB at the students union later in the year...I haven't the stamina for festivals....
I didn't know about the gin festival??? It'd be nice to meet to meet up again if you are out for a drink (after Broxtowe two years ago).....I'm in Italy the weekend of the 8th, but otherwise.....
It is the following weekend, I have Sunday tickets.
Possibly may be able to slip out for a swift half while the ladies are shopping...
Excellent.....I'm sure I can escape too for a sneaky one whilst I am taking Trotsky out for her constitutional...I'll send you my details over the wire.....
I don't always bring up Republicans - I've mostly talked about Corbyn and May on here for the last couple of months. I mentioned them a few times in the last couple of days, main reason is that on my Twitter timeline I've been seeing American reactions to our GE over the past couple of weeks and some misguided American Conservative takes on our situation.
Very few Americans understand UK politics, because it simply isn't that interesting or meaningful to them as their politics is for us. For us it would be like the politics of Australia, we'd think we can understand it because of a common language and a lot of shared culture but in reality we pay no attention to what is going on politically in Australia, and when we talk about it we get a lot wrong.
I don't always bring up Republicans - I've mostly talked about Corbyn and May on here for the last couple of months. I mentioned them a few times in the last couple of days, main reason is that on my Twitter timeline I've been seeing American reactions to our GE over the past couple of weeks and some misguided American Conservative takes on our situation.
You do seem to have a very odd idea that somehow the UK Conservative Party is tainted by association with the loonier elements of the US Republican Party, despite the fact that the Conservative Party is broadly similar to the Democratic Party (inasmuch as you can read across between the UK and US) in most of its political positioning.
It is when May calls the Tories and the Conservatives 'sister parties', and holds Trump's hand.
Under Cameron though, the Tories kept a bit more of a distance between themselves and the GOP. Much to the likes of Liam Fox et al discontent.
Denmark: budget surpluses of 5% before the financial crash, back to approx zero now. Sweden: about 3% pre-crash, back in surplus now. Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
Indeed so. Labour pointing to Scandinavia as a role model in support of fiscal incontinence makes absolutely no sense at all. That's why I keep asking which country the UK left think is a good example of their policies working. It sure ain't Denmark, that's for sure.
I do find it hysterical when Corbinistas start talking about Denmark, it just shows how much they don't know outside there little bubble!
Bingo.
It amazes me that so many are getting suckered by Corbyn, but after Trump I suppose I should accept that it is simply human nature. A large part of the populous aren't thinking deeply but they are certainly feeling that Corbyn shares their views. That his actual ideas are reheated shit that has already been tested to destruction does not matter to them.
You don't get what is happening. People are not embracing 1970's style socialism. They are rejecting the idea that the market knows best and that the state should get out of the way. That is the idea that has been taken to extremes and tested to destruction by successive governments all around the world, and has only resulted in environmental destruction, gross inequality and nepotistic elites.
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
*THANK YOU*
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
But the Market does know best! the market, the invisible hand of the market, is just us, each of us contributing our preferences and skills, are chooses and our knowledge, in collaboration with everybody else, constrained by the phisicale realty of would in which we live.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
No, it does not know best.
The market is not interested in the 'mutual benefit of all' but profit.
'Profit' i.e. return to an investment, is just one of meany things that the market takes in to consideration, preference of customer and workers are others. Every transaction in the market is voluntary, therefor for every person involved in each transaction what they get, has to be preferable to that which they could get anywhere else.
Which is why it is so amazing, the statistics on how its eliminated poverty, and enriched the would are so amazing I still look in wonder!
Given sheeran is just him, not even a backing band, he must be f##king loaded. I saw Jake bugg at a big festival a few years ago and he is so tight he even did his own sound check.
On the other hand, rudimental has got totally the wrong idea, there is so many of them by the time they have split the gig fee between what's appears to be every resident of a council estate they would probably be better paid working in KFC.
Denmark: budget surpluses of 5% before the financial crash, back to approx zero now. Sweden: about 3% pre-crash, back in surplus now. Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
Indeed so. Labour pointing to Scandinavia as a role model in support of fiscal incontinence makes absolutely no sense at all. That's why I keep asking which country the UK left think is a good example of their policies working. It sure ain't Denmark, that's for sure.
Up to just 8 mouths ago Corbyn was parsing Venezuela, as proof that there is a better alternative to austerity, anybody know how that is working out?
It is when May calls the Tories and the Conservatives 'sister parties', and holds Trump's hand.
Like Blair cosying up to George W Bush, perhaps? Your understanding seems a bit selective.
Your reading seems a bit selective.
I literally criticised Labour for that very thing yesterday on here. I certainly thought the party betrayed its principles of social democracy when it cosied up to Bush and the GOP.
If PBers here hated Ed Sheeran, they will really not like Skepta LOL.
I spent a thoroughly enjoyable evening with Ed Sheeran last year watching the footie....he's a lovely fella, but his music is shockingly bland and anodyne....a bit like Tony Blair's politics...
I wonder what deficit Scandinavian countries typically run, and what deficit McDonnell was proposing to run?
Denmark: budget surpluses of 5% before the financial crash, back to approx zero now. Sweden: about 3% surplus pre-crash, and back in surplus now. Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
It is when May calls the Tories and the Conservatives 'sister parties', and holds Trump's hand.
All UK parties, well maybe not Corbyn's Labour, tend to suck up to whoever is in charge in the US at the time, and claim friendship and affinities that make little sense on paper. Remember Bush and Blair? Obama and Cameron got on pretty well too, more so than Brown. It is a very useful relationship for the UK for a whole host of reasons, as even though our politics may differ we have a lot of common interests and enemies.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
It is the land of Janteloven. Don't stand out, don't be different, do as your told and don't dare try to be exceptional. Not my kind of world though I fully accept some like it. .
It is when May calls the Tories and the Conservatives 'sister parties', and holds Trump's hand.
Like Blair cosying up to George W Bush, perhaps? Your understanding seems a bit selective.
Your reading seems a bit selective.
I literally criticised Labour for that very thing yesterday on here. I certainly thought the party betrayed its principles of social democracy when it cosied up to Bush and the GOP.
So all you are saying is that you don't like the Republican Party. That's fair enough, but it's got nothing much to do with UK politics, where both main parties cosy up to whichever party is in power in the US - and quite right too, they are a democracy, the most powerful nation on earth, and our principal ally, of course we want to work with them. Do you really think that if Hillary was president that Theresa May wouldn't have cosied up to her?
Admittedly Blair's cosying to Bush up was a cosy too far, but somehow you STILL manage to think that the Conservatives are somehow tainted by association, but Labour aren't.
I grew up in Denmark and have been back many times - we all see what we want, perhaps, but I'd call it classic social democratic high taxes, high social care and benefits, but almost exclusively private enterprise. Tony Blair likes it, I'd think, and Gorbachev said that on reflection their version of socialism was better than what the Soviets did.
When I lived there I was further left, still am. But the basic insight that people will pay higher tax for good services is important.
Yep, the Danes - like all the Nordics - seem to accept that redistribution of wealth works. They also have a strong entrepreneurial culture. My kind of place!
In the 00's the nordic model was seen as a failing and unsustainable, when I studied it at university. All that has changed is that the other systems proved to be worse. People do see what they want. My experience of scandinavia is that it costs 35 euros to get your bin emptied. You pay massively for prescriptions etc and there is nothing like NHS levels of free healthcare. In many ways the state is much stronger though. Jobs are much more secure. The trade unions are integrated in to decision making. They are not very open societies despite how they may appear, it is almost impossible to truly integrate in to them if you are an outsider. I don't think it is a neoliberal paradise.
You say Jobs are secure, and in a way they are but not in the way many people think, it is easy to get get rid of an employee in Denmark than any other EU nation, it just is! but because of that the economy is strong, and company are happy to take on the risk on new workers, which create a tight labor market and therefor company's don't get rid of good employees for frivolous reasons, making jobs secure. It is the way to go!
One thing that liberalism has got right is loose labour restrictions. I can't stand all this mandating employers to do things like paternal leave, high minimum wage etc. Create a system that allows for strong growth and the market will provide employers that have to compete for the best workers.
Except if you have a bizarre free movement policy that draws in millions from Europe to stifle wage inflation....
I'm a pro immigration person, because I value the freedom of other people, including people who where not lucky enough to be born in a nation as free as this.
But I can not argue with or disagree with your last point.
I wonder what deficit Scandinavian countries typically run, and what deficit McDonnell was proposing to run?
Denmark: budget surpluses of 5% before the financial crash, back to approx zero now. Sweden: about 3% surplus pre-crash, and back in surplus now. Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
Because they tax more than us. Simple.
You were just a few minutes ago advocating never getting rid of a deficit. You realise that means our national debt will forever rise. Which means the interest payments share of our tax take will continue to rise, too...
Comments
I don't think that Corbyn has the answers, and genuinely fear what would happen if he gets in to power. But people have waited a long time for an alternative and he was in the right place at the right time.
With the one exception of the overall tax rate, Denmark and the rest of Scandinavia are nothing like Corbynisum. (and even there the taxes are the oppose of what Corbyn want)
I wonder what deficit Scandinavian countries typically run, and what deficit McDonnell was proposing to run?
Norwich south is absolutely wonderful.....for me it surpasses Oxford central.... and I never thought I would have said that.....I am very lucky to have found this place...
The irony of Norwich South is that it is exactly the type of England that small minded Brexiters yearn for...a kind, gentle place, good natured, polite, community spirited...and yet it is as liberal as you get....my next door neighbours cat but one is called Trotsky too....
Here's my prediction: the political effect of this new barmy substitute for an attack line will have exactly the same impact as the last one.
The Tory plan to eventually have zero deficit had nothing to do with fiscal rectitude. It was designed to smash the public sector.
I doubt he'll be invited back anytime soon...I wish I'd never given him his 20 Euros back....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_spending
But overall I agree, the crawdes are cheering Corbyn not because of what he is selling, but because he is selling something, and to a degree that something is just 'idealism' itself and him off course, look at both Trump in the US and Macron in France, all 3 men, outsiders, they talk in a way that is different to how politicians normally talk! and they all use big ralleys
People do see what they want. My experience of scandinavia is that it costs 35 euros to get your bin emptied. You pay massively for prescriptions etc and there is nothing like NHS levels of free healthcare. In many ways the state is much stronger though. Jobs are much more secure. The trade unions are integrated in to decision making.
They are not very open societies despite how they may appear, it is almost impossible to truly integrate in to them if you are an outsider.
I don't think it is a neoliberal paradise.
Look at Trump for an almost perfect example. Clinton was toxic (and rightly so in my opinion), the Republicans were pushing people like Jeb and Rubio, and Trump barged his way in confounding all the experts. Trump is singularly unqualified to do the job, combining ignorance, stubbornness, and rudeness in a way that will likely make people like Richard Nixon be more favourably remembered.
Why can't we have a Macron not a Corbyn? Damn the French, they've beaten us again!
David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
Most overrated band of the last decade?
The Left's mentality here in the UK is the promotion of the lowest common denominator, and it always has been. I can't think of any other advanced economy where individuals are compelled to feel guilty for doing well.
This is also what idiotic Republicans across the pond analysing our GE don't get either. But they are so batshit in their belief that everywhere should be a gun-owning, individualistic, market-knows-best, socially conservative society that they feel such a view is 'radical.'
The Tories shouldn't make the same mistake in thinking that the rejection of the market knows best world-view is some kind of far-left position. It's not.
As neilh said, people are rejecting the market knows best and small state neoliberalism. I really do think it's a sea-change.
https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/economic-freedom-of-the-world-2016-A4.pdf
As already noted Denmark has High taxes, but as I have also noted:
1) In all other respects they are very free market.
2) high tax is better than big deficits
3) The tax they use, A land Value Tax, high VAT and fairly high Income tax, are not nearly as bad as high Corporation tax
4) The slightly higher speeding is much better used because a lot is given to individuals to spend themselves, not by government burocrates.
In a forced choice I would still vote Labour over Tory. Tory party policies are as destructive, but also without hope.
David Cameron actually won a GE. There is little point in winning 42% if at the end of the day you lose the GE and are scrambling behind the scenes to ensure that you have a majority to get basic things like a QS passed.
Tony Blair didn't get 42% in 2005, he got around 35%. But unlike Theresa May, that delivered him a majority of 66 and didn't have to worry about confidence and supply deals with the DUP.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm giving examples to back up my points. Obviously, I'm not going to go through all the seats contested - that it is why you take some as an example to support wider point.
The reality is Labour actually picked up marginals - unbelievably - in this GE like Bury North, and added to their majority in seats such as Ilford North. Meanwhile, the Conservatives lost seats such as Croydon Central and seats such Chingford and Woodford Green became marginals FGS. In Boris' Uxbridge seat the majority was cut to approx 5,000.
The manifesto failed because it was crap. It is total myth that May's manifesto was some truth-telling bible in contrast to Corbyn's fairy tale one. In reality both manifestos were not honest and upfront with the public, which is why the IFS took both parties' manifestos to task. May's manifesto was not even costed, barely said anything about Brexit, offered hardly any help to the JAMs, and the social care policy failed in part because it was badly handled by the Conservative Party.
May's 'national independence' message included disastrous lines like calling people who didn't sign up to her rhetoric 'citizens of nowhere', something which will have gone down very badly in places like London, a place with seats which the Conservatives will need to win back if they actually want to win a majority at the next GE.
The previous stratospheric ratings show that when TMay wasn't in public view very much and her appearances highly controlled and somewhat limited, she was liked. But as soon as voters knew more about her, and saw more of her they disliked her less.
I didn't know about the gin festival??? It'd be nice to meet to meet up again if you are out for a drink (after Broxtowe two years ago).....I'm in Italy the weekend of the 8th, but otherwise.....
Now that we have a situation in Camden where residents are being woken up at 2am to get out of their flats with accommodation being an inflatable bed in a leisure centre, whilst others are apparently being intimidated by security guards, there is...nothing.
If this was a Tory council doing this, we would not hear the last of it but because it is caring Labour, nothing. Instead JC is too busy "aceing the chorus" at Glastonbury to show his face.
The market is the most beautiful thing, for the simple reason is is us voluntarily interacting and cooperating with each other to the mutual benefit of all.
On that leg though watches the entire first series of the French political drama Baron Noir..bloody brilliant and some very interesting parrallels with whats been going on here...
Emeli Sandi....no so much.
The Foo Fighters....no.
The xx....yes.
Chic and Nile Rogers....brilliant.
The idea that there won't an economic hit as a result of reducing immigration to the tens of thousands is ridiculous.
Pretty abysmal Glastonbury overall, with one or two gems.
The market is not interested in the 'mutual benefit of all' but profit.
Radiohead didn't chart any singles and look how brilliant they are. Ed Sheeran headlining marks a low point for the festival and will not be repeated anytime soon
It is the following weekend, I have Sunday tickets.
Possibly may be able to slip out for a swift half while the ladies are shopping...
Gibb and Chic were both sublime.
The Tories, playing fast and loose with the economy to resolve their party differences, should not be allowed anywhere near governing the country. They are little more than reckless vandals....
If it's an 'aim' then that means she eventually wants to put it into practice and thus means that it is in effect a policy. They are just calling it an 'aim' because they've struggled to meet the target when it actually was a official policy in the previous Conservative manifestos.
Re Radiohead, they were awful yesterday, the worst Glastonbury Act of the all weekend. Dreadful.
Sweden: about 3% surplus pre-crash, and back in surplus now.
Norway: permanently in surplus, although not as silly as it used to be (was almost +20% at one point)
Quite a bit different from our -3% for multiple years at the height of a bubble. Unsurprisingly, we've had more trouble returning to fiscal sanity.
Except if you have a bizarre free movement policy that draws in millions from Europe to stifle wage inflation....
But there was nothing to cost, which was the point at issue.
Under Cameron though, the Tories kept a bit more of a distance between themselves and the GOP. Much to the likes of Liam Fox et al discontent.
Which is why it is so amazing, the statistics on how its eliminated poverty, and enriched the would are so amazing I still look in wonder!
I accept that Liam Fox specially is quite keen on some aspects of Republicanism - but not the aspects you attempt to use as smears.
On the other hand, rudimental has got totally the wrong idea, there is so many of them by the time they have split the gig fee between what's appears to be every resident of a council estate they would probably be better paid working in KFC.
Worth reading. Speech by Theresa May.
I literally criticised Labour for that very thing yesterday on here. I certainly thought the party betrayed its principles of social democracy when it cosied up to Bush and the GOP.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-fire-insurance-idUSKBN19G0X6
Admittedly Blair's cosying to Bush up was a cosy too far, but somehow you STILL manage to think that the Conservatives are somehow tainted by association, but Labour aren't.
But I can not argue with or disagree with your last point.