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So Corbyn is going to spunk money up the wall on subs / missiles he has pledged never to use.
hmmm
Also slightly confused - put Sky news on and expect wall to wall wailing re the tory manifesto but the reality is somewhat different.0 -
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Since it isn't a tax I would certainly applaud it. Of course the point being that Labour would never suggest it in this form exactly because it isn't a tax.SandyRentool said:If the Dementia Tax was a Labour policy, would Tories be applauding it?
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That is unfair and unworthy of youSandyRentool said:
Don't forget the fact that she can't stand up straight. Terrible posture .murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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I give you Aneurin Bevan, speaking in Manchester on 3rd July 1948:Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure if you were being ironic or not but there is indeed a difference. The Tories appear to be willing to hit their own supporters because it is the right thing to do to put the necessary changes in place. Labour just want to hit the Tory supporters because they are Tories and because they (Labour) are envious little shits fighting what they perceive as some strange class warfare.SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference.
No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party that inflicted those bitter experiences on me. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin. They condemned millions of first-class people to semi-starvation. Now the Tories are pouring out money in propaganda of all sorts and are hoping by this organised sustained mass suggestion to eradicate from our minds all memory of what we went through. But, I warn you young men and women, do not listen to what they are saying now. Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were.
The irony of that speech is of course that this was two years after Labour introduced bread rationing and the year before they introduced a 31% devaluation in the value of the pound which caused food prices to soar!0 -
I bet he claimed his personal allowance...calum said:
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For those struggling to understand the Toty Manifesto. I think I can help.
https://twitter.com/bornconsumedie/status/865287090434650113/photo/10 -
Want to argue with that... but I cant.Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure if you were being ironic or not but there is indeed a difference. The Tories appear to be willing to hit their own supporters because it is the right thing to do to put the necessary changes in place. Labour just want to hit the Tory supporters because they are Tories and because they (Labour) are envious little shits fighting what they perceive as some strange class warfare.SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference.0 -
Let me guess: "Typical Socialists. They tax even the old"SandyRentool said:If the Dementia Tax was a Labour policy, would Tories be applauding it?
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And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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These last couple of days has had me thinking that perhaps it is Cameron >>>>>> May. Her whole policy re the internet regulation is just ridiculous IMHO.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
I think one PBer rather eloquently explained earlier on how there are few options on the ballot paper for social liberals these days.0 -
I wish I'd believed you sooner. Reckon there must be a fair few more out there thinking the same thing.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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Or offer the possibility of regional variations in the amount to reflect 'local' conditions following a 'period of consultation'. Given the precedent that would be set with the Scottish WFA that might be a palatable 'refining' of the policy.chestnut said:
Aligning policy across care in the family home with that received in a care home is perfectly logical and sensible, much like aligning national insurance contributions between the self employed and employed - but if the public don't like it or can't see it, it matters not.TudorRose said:
And it is interesting that some of those complaining about this are the same people who argue strongly for a 'meritocracy'. I don't think there's anything especially meritocratic about becoming wealthy from your parents' hard work.tlg86 said:
But that's no different to now! There are two issues - there's the one about why should those lucky enough not to need care be able to leave a nice inheritance for their kids which bizarrely seems to get right wing Tories in a bit of a state.The_Apocalypse said:
Yep, that's exactly how my parents see it. My mum was calling it a 'con', and saying that it gave people no motivation to work hard and save.chestnut said:The problem with this care proposal is that it is being perceived as inheritance tax.
Then there's the fact that if you don't accumulate assets/wealth during your lifetime the state will pay for you. My mum keeps reminding us that her uncle in Bolsover ended up in a home and that he was the only one paying as he had a house.
My guess is that they will stick with the care policy but substantially raise the asset protection level to something closer to quarter of a million, and at least double the existing amount.
While they are at it, they need to clarify the level of the means test for pensioners winter fuel payments.
One week from now they say, 'we've listened, we've changed the levels as a result of your opinion' etc.0 -
I saw that yesterday and thought it was so true.calum said:0 -
Sadly, the really rich ones siphon off the money offshore.MarqueeMark said:
Because Tory voters are the ones with money? They have to fund the bulk of the economy regardless....SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference.0 -
Given we're talking about a Tory policy it should be obvious whose manifesto it appeared in.Omnium said:
I've no idea who's manifesto this is from!
Let's deconstruct it
We trust the people of this country.... I'm already wanting to kill them. Do WE trust you is the issue.
Who know that we face difficult choices... well yes maybe, but that's what I'm hoping you'll help with!
And demand the respect of politicians - er... We don't care - it's your job to earn our respect.
Who should be honest about how those choices should be resolved - This suggests that the debate that you and I might have is simply secondary to the real debate with grown up people who are called politcians.
Don't really care whose manifesto it is, but it is the most empty of statements.
An alternative reading is: we're trying to grasp the nettle on a difficult and unpopular issue which has been kicked into the long grass for too long because it's politically radioactive. By being upfront about this we are trusting the British public to not put their own self-interest above the greater good. None of the other parties are honest enough to admit that social care is bloody expensive and there is no magic money tree to pay for it.0 -
She is over-rated and under performs.midwinter said:
Corbyn is a very lucky man to be up against her. Can you imagine how far Dave would be winning by under the same circumstances. Not one coherently explained policy since she became PM. Still no clear Brexit vision. Piss poor.Jason said:
If she wins a big majority, she clearly hasn't 'bolloxed up' her manifesto.SandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.0 -
I'm not being spiteful - just watch her walk. I think she needs some Alexander lessons.Big_G_NorthWales said:
That is unfair and unworthy of youSandyRentool said:
Don't forget the fact that she can't stand up straight. Terrible posture .murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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When Labour gave donors advice on how to minimise their tax exposure when making donations did you complain?surbiton said:
Sadly, the really rich ones siphon off the money offshore.MarqueeMark said:
Because Tory voters are the ones with money? They have to fund the bulk of the economy regardless....SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference.
Still, one thing Labour doesn't have to worry about now as donations from non unions have dried up.
The unions own your arses now.
The Labour party is basically Len's bitch and the manifesto shows it.0 -
I cannot see her without noticing that she walks like a Marabou Stork, familiar in East Africa:SandyRentool said:
Don't forget the fact that she can't stand up straight. Terrible posture .murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
https://youtu.be/85TQpVIgp_U0 -
Runaround..... NOW!!!!!!!0
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I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.0
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And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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TheScreamingEagles said:
I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
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Cameron's handling of the so-called EU "re-negotiations" were a disastrous non-event. This resulted in him throwing away the cause to vote Remain as well as throwing away his own Premiership ..... what a waste, sad but true.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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Winning healthily with a manifesto that allows them to sort out some problems that have been around for years is surely better than winning big with a manifesto that doesn't?SandyRentool said:
She could have won big, now she'll only win healthy.Jason said:
If she wins a big majority, she clearly hasn't 'bolloxed up' her manifesto.SandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
I haven't had a chance to look into the social care proposals to judge if it's the best solution, but at least it's a solution.0 -
This is great stuff.......0
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71 minutes to goFrancisUrquhart said:
snipTheScreamingEagles said:I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
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Parliament needs a misandryst, does it?The_Apocalypse said:0 -
Don't forget the way he thrashed the hapless Gordon Brown thoughpeter_from_putney said:
Cameron's handling of the so-called EU "re-negotiations" were a disastrous non-event. This resulted in him throwing away the cause to vote Remain as well as throwing away his own Premiership ..... what a waste, sad but true.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
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Exactly. The starting point is that if you need to pay someone to wipe your arse there's no difference between that and paying someone to service your car or mow your lawn. The fact that the state picks up some of the tab is a bonus which has to be paid for. And I am afraid I don't believe anyone who says "I'd rather pay more tax", because they wouldn't, unless their current position is that they are rather close to having to start paying for care so that they get a free ride off younger taxpayers, who are having a hard enough time as it is.Richard_Tyndall said:
The point being that the Tory proposals are not a tax. They are payment for a specific service if you need it. If you don't need that service you don't pay for it. In the case of Inheritance tax it is just that, a tax. It is the state taking money for the sake of it just because they can. In my mind there is a world of difference between the two.tlg86 said:
But that's no different to now! There are two issues - there's the one about why should those lucky enough not to need care be able to leave a nice inheritance for their kids which bizarrely seems to get right wing Tories in a bit of a state.The_Apocalypse said:
Yep, that's exactly how my parents see it. My mum was calling it a 'con', and saying that it gave people no motivation to work hard and save.chestnut said:The problem with this care proposal is that it is being perceived as inheritance tax.
Then there's the fact that if you don't accumulate assets/wealth during your lifetime the state will pay for you. My mum keeps reminding us that her uncle in Bolsover ended up in a home and that he was the only one paying as he had a house.0 -
no.SandyRentool said:If the Dementia Tax was a Labour policy, would Tories be applauding it?
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I compared this election to feeling like the second leg of a cup tie between a mid-table premier league team and a struggling Championship side, after the big club won the first leg 5-0.SeanT said:
At what point do Tories start worrying? A single digit poll lead over..... Jeremy Corbyn, and John McDonnell, and Diane Abbott..... would be quite astonishingly poor.david_herdson said:Re the expected post-manifest launch polls, I'd be anticipating a substantial drop in the Tory lead, possibly into single figures.
I've been canvassing this afternoon and the Winter Fuel Allowance policy announcement has gone down like a bucket of cold sick. This is not because people disagree with the policy; it is because people disagree with what they think is the policy (i.e. that it's going to be scrapped).
That, combined with a failure to hit Labour over its own policy launch and, hence, people thinking more about Labour's policies (which are quite popular individually) rather than whether they're credible as a package or whether Corbyn and co could implement them - or whether they're capable of leading the country - has significantly reduced the negatives towards Labour.
CCHQ needs to up its game.
Taking that further, the Tories then knocked in sixth early in the match, when the election was called and Labour was flat-footed in its response.
However, since then, the Tories have gone negative, seeking to avoid injuries, and Labour has knocked three in through a mixture of unexpectedly effective play and Tory errors. It's half-time in the second leg and 6-3 overall.
That is not the time to panic; it is the time for the Tory manager to remind the players that they're better than their opponents man-for-man, they have better training, and they have better technical and coaching staff.
Don't panic; play fucking football.0 -
A lot of the reasons that May is going to get a bigger majority are reasons that aren't really related to Theresa May when you think about it:
- the detoxification of the Conservative brand: Achieved by Cameron and co. in opposition as well as using the LDs as their human shield in the coalition. Facilitated the gains made in the South-West that gave the Tories their majority.
- Brexit: Indirectly caused by Cameron, Brexit has unified the Conservative party, and the centre-right vote in Britain. It has meant that in effect, UKIP no longer has a purpose anymore - allowing the Tories to monopolise the right-leaning vote.
- Jeremy Corbyn: His election to the Labour leadership has meant that May has no effective opposition, making her Conservative party the only game in town.0 -
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
Hey Apocalypse! Have you even been kissed by a Tory?The_Apocalypse said:A lot of the reasons that May is going to get a bigger majority are reasons that aren't really related to Theresa May when you think about it:
- the detoxification of the Conservative brand: Achieved by Cameron and co. in opposition as well as using the LDs as their human shield in the coalition. Facilitated the gains made in the South-West that gave the Tories their majority.
- Brexit: Indirectly caused by Cameron, Brexit has unified the Conservative party, and the centre-right vote in Britain. It has meant that in effect, UKIP no longer has a purpose anymore - allowing the Tories to monopolise the right-leaning vote.
- Jeremy Corbyn: His election to the Labour leadership has meant that May has no effective opposition, making her Conservative party the only game in town.
Mwah!
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Oh sorry Tory communication has been diabolical in this campaign and recentlychestnut said:
That's inaccurate. It's £8.64 this year, let alone 2020.bigjohnowls said:
It means a cut from the £9 promised by GO to £8.20chestnut said:Tory communication has been diabolical in this campaign and recently.
The earnings pledge of "60% of the median" will mean bugger all to most people. Terrible messaging.
Is that a clearer message for you?
Is that clear for you?
The earnings pledge of "60% of the median" will mean bugger all to most people including me. Terrible messaging.0 -
It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.0
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I suspect they'll end up playing the man rather than the ball...!david_herdson said:
I compared this election to feeling like the second leg of a cup tie between a mid-table premier league team and a struggling Championship side, after the big club won the first leg 5-0.SeanT said:
At what point do Tories start worrying? A single digit poll lead over..... Jeremy Corbyn, and John McDonnell, and Diane Abbott..... would be quite astonishingly poor.david_herdson said:Re the expected post-manifest launch polls, I'd be anticipating a substantial drop in the Tory lead, possibly into single figures.
I've been canvassing this afternoon and the Winter Fuel Allowance policy announcement has gone down like a bucket of cold sick. This is not because people disagree with the policy; it is because people disagree with what they think is the policy (i.e. that it's going to be scrapped).
That, combined with a failure to hit Labour over its own policy launch and, hence, people thinking more about Labour's policies (which are quite popular individually) rather than whether they're credible as a package or whether Corbyn and co could implement them - or whether they're capable of leading the country - has significantly reduced the negatives towards Labour.
CCHQ needs to up its game.
Taking that further, the Tories then knocked in sixth early in the match, when the election was called and Labour was flat-footed in its response.
However, since then, the Tories have gone negative, seeking to avoid injuries, and Labour has knocked three in through a mixture of unexpectedly effective play and Tory errors. It's half-time in the second leg and 6-3 overall.
That is not the time to panic; it is the time for the Tory manager to remind the players that they're better than their opponents man-for-man, they have better training, and they have better technical and coaching staff.
Don't panic; play fucking football.0 -
If only the Conservatives had taken my advice and elected Priti as leader you wouldn't be despairing over May's pisspoorness. And she'd be kicking some backsides in Brussels too.0
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"I am ready, man! Ready to GET IT ON!"TheScreamingEagles said:I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
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I've managed to avoid that situation....Sunil_Prasannan said:Hey Apocalypse! Have you even been kissed by a Tory?
Mwah!
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It is Labour policy, Sandy.SandyRentool said:If the Dementia Tax was a Labour policy, would Tories be applauding it?
The only difference is the building the sufferer is housed in.0 -
You mean if Cameron hadn't been so incredibly astute, Leave might have won the Referendum?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.
Narrow escape. Phew.0 -
As it is not a tax but a considerable improvement for my wife and I, I would support it from labournunu said:
no.SandyRentool said:If the Dementia Tax was a Labour policy, would Tories be applauding it?
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Like a lot of supporters of the death penalty, she's a bit thick.SandyRentool said:If only the Conservatives had taken my advice and elected Priti as leader you wouldn't be despairing over May's pisspoorness. And she'd be kicking some backsides in Brussels too.
For example watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU&t=36s0 -
With ORB, they could lose Hallam.Paristonda said:
I don't think so - more likely is that they become relevant in a tiny minority of places - tactical voting should help them hold on in most seats and perhaps take a couple more (while losing some - I expect a finish around 10 now) - but their vote share will absolutely crater in other seats - very bad for the long term.daodao said:
The LDs are likely to lose most of their remaining seats. A bicycle will be sufficient transport for Farron and his party (all 1 of them) post the GE.0 -
"It's the economy, stupid"Ishmael_Z said:
You mean if Cameron hadn't been so incredibly astute, Leave might have won the Referendum?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.
Narrow escape. Phew.
Shrewd old Dave knew how to win a referendum or two
But not three!
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4 Lab leave votes in my house.TheScreamingEagles said:TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
If he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.
Have to say come back Cameron all is forgiven compared to Pound Shop Thatcher House Snatcher0 -
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
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Some of us did vote Leave for the added benefit of getting rid of Cameron. 'Let's wipe the smile off their faces', remember?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
Nope, he blundered a few times on it.Ishmael_Z said:
You mean if Cameron hadn't been so incredibly astute, Leave might have won the Referendum?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.
Narrow escape. Phew.
I suspect when he writes his memoirs he'll regret bigging up his renegotiation.
You know it was a piss poor renegotiation because how little it was mentioned during the referendum campaign by Remain.0 -
Hmm, that was a bonkers reason for doing so.SandyRentool said:
Some of us did vote Leave for the added benefit of getting rid of Cameron. 'Let's wipe the smile off their faces', remember?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
I have a feeling that tonight's polling numbers might prove to be Labour's high water mark after a good week, not only in relation to their own manifesto, but also in benefiting from some Tory disasters. The intensity is likely to slacken from hereon in with more emphasis perhaps on the the baggage attaching to the Labour leadership.FrancisUrquhart said:TheScreamingEagles said:I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
I still think Theresa May could prove to be an effective PM, but she has to prove she can be much more sure-footed especially in terms ofconsidering major policy in depth before unleashing it onto the British public.0 -
Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure if you were being ironic or not but there is indeed a difference. The Tories appear to be willing to hit their own supporters because it is the right thing to do to put the necessary changes in place. Labour just want to hit the Tory supporters because they are Tories and because they (Labour) are envious little shits fighting what they perceive as some strange class warfare.SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference.
Watching Labour try and attack a policy which takes from the rich and gives to the average man would be hillarious if the subject wasn't so damn serious. 0 -
"A former cabinet minister admitted that they were resorting to telling constituents that the plan was likely to be refined before it was put into practice, even though they had no knowledge that would happen."SeanT said:The Times is also discouraging for Tories (££)
"Theresa May’s plan to make tens of thousands more people pay for their old-age care from their estates has triggered anger among Tory candidates, who said that the author of the proposal “should be shot”."
"Some Tories said yesterday that the policy would never be implemented in the form presented in the manifesto. One candidate standing for re-election said that it could be a disaster.
“This plan was coming up on the doorstep this morning and there has not even yet been much coverage it. It is very hard to justify, because people with a house of £300,000 could have a liability now of £200,000. I thought the campaign was just right until this yesterday”.
A former cabinet minister admitted that they were resorting to telling constituents that the plan was likely to be refined before it was put into practice, even though they had no knowledge that would happen."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/may-faces-tory-dissent-over-her-dementia-tax-care-plan-txr9ktvxr?shareToken=da8dd1d580884e884a678eb5501e7f6d
It's so bad candidates are disowning it on the doorstep.
It's so bad candidates are disowning it on the doorstep.
You mean the Tories are saying: don't worry, this will never be implemented
whereas, we are saying: don't worry, Corbyn will never get elected.
0 -
She's come across as awful whenever I've seen her on any of the political shows. She was particularly bad on QT this week - every panellist basically came across much better than she did. Charles Moore was much more successful in making the Conservative argument than she was.TheScreamingEagles said:
Like a lot of supporters of the death penalty, she's a bit thick.SandyRentool said:If only the Conservatives had taken my advice and elected Priti as leader you wouldn't be despairing over May's pisspoorness. And she'd be kicking some backsides in Brussels too.
For example watch this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DrsVhzbLzU&t=36s0 -
The Crabb might have been marginally better in what was, admittedly, a woefully talentless field.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
People are completely irrational about the equity in their houses. It's possibly an even bigger national psychosis than the idea that leaving the EU is a good idea.The_Apocalypse said:
Yep, that's exactly how my parents see it. My mum was calling it a 'con', and saying that it gave people no motivation to work hard and save.chestnut said:The problem with this care proposal is that it is being perceived as inheritance tax.
0 -
The tragedy of people defining their entire political views via Europe meant that we lost the most capable politician in the country. And now we watch a pair of talentless, inept lightweights scrambling around like tramps on meths and have to decide who is the least incompetent.peter_from_putney said:
Cameron's handling of the so-called EU "re-negotiations" were a disastrous non-event. This resulted in him throwing away the cause to vote Remain as well as throwing away his own Premiership ..... what a waste, sad but true.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
0 -
This is borne out by the leadership ratings, no doubt?bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
Gove would have been fine as PM.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
I think if he had made the final two, I probably would have voted for him (Sorry JohnO)0 -
Anotherchrisb said:
Given we're talking about a Tory policy it should be obvious whose manifesto it appeared in.Omnium said:
I've no idea who's manifesto this is from!
Let's deconstruct it
We trust the people of this country.... I'm already wanting to kill them. Do WE trust you is the issue.
Who know that we face difficult choices... well yes maybe, but that's what I'm hoping you'll help with!
And demand the respect of politicians - er... We don't care - it's your job to earn our respect.
Who should be honest about how those choices should be resolved - This suggests that the debate that you and I might have is simply secondary to the real debate with grown up people who are called politcians.
Don't really care whose manifesto it is, but it is the most empty of statements.
An alternative reading is: we're trying to grasp the nettle on a difficult and unpopular issue which has been kicked into the long grass for too long because it's politically radioactive. By being upfront about this we are trusting the British public to not put their own self-interest above the greater good. None of the other parties are honest enough to admit that social care is bloody expensive and there is no magic money tree to pay for it.
Well done to one party who had the balls to raise this at manifesto time, and say that it's going to be difficult. One hopes that the public are sensible enough to see this.0 -
Labour "attacking" is basically intended to keep the issue alive.Sandpit said:Richard_Tyndall said:
Not sure if you were being ironic or not but there is indeed a difference. The Tories appear to be willing to hit their own supporters because it is the right thing to do to put the necessary changes in place. Labour just want to hit the Tory supporters because they are Tories and because they (Labour) are envious little shits fighting what they perceive as some strange class warfare.SandyRentool said:
The Labour manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.Big_G_NorthWales said:
So manifesto's have to be crowd pleaser's rather than addressing the difficult problems of the daySandyRentool said:The way things are going I might have to stay up on election night after all.
Face it Tories, May isn't very good and she has bolloxed up her manifesto.
I'm not saying she won't win with a healthy majority, but she doesn't deserve it.
The Conservative manifesto included policies that will hit Tory voters.
That's the difference. Watching Labour try and attack a policy which takes from the rich and gives to the average man would be hillarious if the subject wasn't so damn serious.
Theresa May has launched a North Korean missile. It has been launched but we do not where it will hit !0 -
Only because, at the time it went to print, you guys thought, you were leading by 20 points.Sandpit said:
Anotherchrisb said:
Given we're talking about a Tory policy it should be obvious whose manifesto it appeared in.Omnium said:
I've no idea who's manifesto this is from!
Let's deconstruct it
We trust the people of this country.... I'm already wanting to kill them. Do WE trust you is the issue.
Who know that we face difficult choices... well yes maybe, but that's what I'm hoping you'll help with!
And demand the respect of politicians - er... We don't care - it's your job to earn our respect.
Who should be honest about how those choices should be resolved - This suggests that the debate that you and I might have is simply secondary to the real debate with grown up people who are called politcians.
Don't really care whose manifesto it is, but it is the most empty of statements.
An alternative reading is: we're trying to grasp the nettle on a difficult and unpopular issue which has been kicked into the long grass for too long because it's politically radioactive. By being upfront about this we are trusting the British public to not put their own self-interest above the greater good. None of the other parties are honest enough to admit that social care is bloody expensive and there is no magic money tree to pay for it.
Well done to one party who had the balls to raise this at manifesto time, and say that it's going to be difficult.0 -
I think 'Don't Knows, Won't Votes' might have a good evening.peter_from_putney said:
I have a feeling that tonight's polling numbers might prove to be Labour's high water mark after a good week, not only in relation to their own manifesto, but also in benefiting from some Tory disasters. The intensity is likely to slacken from hereon in with more emphasis perhaps on the the baggage attaching to the Labour leadership.FrancisUrquhart said:TheScreamingEagles said:I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
I still think Theresa May could prove to be an effective PM, but she has to prove she can be much more sure-footed especially in terms ofconsidering major policy in depth before unleashing it onto the British public.
0 -
Mrs May: Folks, we have scored big this time! ... Let's not call it in till we know what to call it in as.Sunil_Prasannan said:
"I am ready, man! Ready to GET IT ON!"TheScreamingEagles said:I'm told that tonight's YouGov poll will be out at 9.30pm BST, or very shortly thereafter.
...
Newt: Timmy, they've been gone a long time.
Timmy: It'll be okay, Newt. Mrs May knows what she's doing.
0 -
How about:RobD said:
Hm, I think that's trying too hard. Hasn't got the simplistic majesty of EICIPM.bigjohnowls said:
Pound Shop Thatcher House Snatcher bounce still to come.RobD said:
Single figures lead not out of the question.
Still think the planned IRA stuff will move polls back to May by polling day
"Tory Leader Theresa May,
Comes to take Gran's house away"?0 -
I agree with the removal of the Triple Locksurbiton said:
I could be persuaded that WFA is too generous.
To limit the latter to only 10% of Pensioners in receipt of pension credit guaranteed is a bit harsh though.
The Pound Shop Thatcher House Snatcher policy is just WRONG WRONG WRONG.0 -
I would like to see the ratings next week.Sunil_Prasannan said:
This is borne out by the leadership ratings, no doubt?bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
Tory rank and file out for blood
http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/kathy-gyngell-mays-socialist-care-plan-attack-thrift-family/
"This is a Conservative Prime Minister sanctioning a socialist attack on private property ownership, singling out people who have bought property, from those who rented or had the benefit of housing allowances. If anything were an attack on independence, aspiration and thrift it is this."0 -
-
I agree with quite a few things but I will say so on June 9th. In the meantime, nasty, baby-eating Tories....bigjohnowls said:
I agree with the removal of the Triple Locksurbiton said:
I could be persuaded that WFA is too generous.
To limit the latter to only 10% of Pensioners in receipt of pension credit guaranteed is a bit harsh though.
The Pound Shop Thatcher House Snatcher policy is just WRONG WRONG WRONG.0 -
I see people on here are still being irrationally hysterical when the latest poll still sees the Tories with a double digit lead.
I'd hate to see what people were like if it was any narrower.0 -
I don't know which definition of 'honourable' extends to 'deliberately lying'. He could always have maintained a 'diplomatic silence'. Besides, if only the 'terminally stupid' didn't know he would resign then what was the point of lying...?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/stephen-crabb-new-dwp-secretary-criticised-for-links-to-gay-cure-group-a6941281.htmlbobajobPB said:
The Crabb might have been marginally better in what was, admittedly, a woefully talentless field.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
Someone please call 999. I could laugh to death !kyf_100 said:Tory rank and file out for blood
http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/kathy-gyngell-mays-socialist-care-plan-attack-thrift-family/
"This is a Conservative Prime Minister sanctioning a socialist attack on private property ownership, singling out people who have bought property, from those who rented or had the benefit of housing allowances. If anything were an attack on independence, aspiration and thrift it is this."0 -
Gove is a walking ideologue and yet another one who worships Blair.TheScreamingEagles said:
Gove would have been fine as PM.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
I think if he had made the final two, I probably would have voted for him (Sorry JohnO)0 -
If I had to sum up in two words why I believe the Tories will win this GE with a majority of at least 100 seats, I would say (i) Brexit and (ii) McDonnell.0
-
You might be finding out in the next hournumbertwelve said:I see people on here are still being irrationally hysterical when the latest poll still sees the Tories with a double digit lead.
I'd hate to see what people were like if it was any narrower.0 -
I predict a Jonestown-style mass suicide, with Sean T as Jim Jones.numbertwelve said:I see people on here are still being irrationally hysterical when the latest poll still sees the Tories with a double digit lead.
I'd hate to see what people were like if it was any narrower.0 -
It would seem you were right!The_Apocalypse said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/stephen-crabb-new-dwp-secretary-criticised-for-links-to-gay-cure-group-a6941281.htmlbobajobPB said:
The Crabb might have been marginally better in what was, admittedly, a woefully talentless field.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
Gove would have been a disaster. He an even more worse example of the dangers of the journalist-politician than Boris Johnson. Ken Clarke's assessment of him in the clip where he called May a 'bloody difficult woman' was absolutely devastating.The_Apocalypse said:
Gove is a walking ideologue and yet another one who worships Blair.TheScreamingEagles said:
Gove would have been fine as PM.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
I think if he had made the final two, I probably would have voted for him (Sorry JohnO)0 -
He's a free market Thatcherite, and social liberal.The_Apocalypse said:
Gove is a walking ideologue and yet another one who worships Blair.TheScreamingEagles said:
Gove would have been fine as PM.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
I think if he had made the final two, I probably would have voted for him (Sorry JohnO)
I'd be happy with that.
Plus had he become PM, he'd have kept Osborne as Chancellor.0 -
Hah! Yet these are exactly the kind of small c conservative voters, rather than neo-liberal metropolitan elite types such as myself who Theresa May was supposed to be winning over in droves at this election.surbiton said:
Someone please call 999. I could laugh to death !kyf_100 said:Tory rank and file out for blood
http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/kathy-gyngell-mays-socialist-care-plan-attack-thrift-family/
"This is a Conservative Prime Minister sanctioning a socialist attack on private property ownership, singling out people who have bought property, from those who rented or had the benefit of housing allowances. If anything were an attack on independence, aspiration and thrift it is this."
Regardless of the small print, this looks to the average "I work hard and save every penny I earn so my kids can have a better life" voter like a tax on aspiration and a tax on demented old grannies.
It's an own goal, there's no other way to spin it.0 -
Added benefit, not primary reason.bobajobPB said:
Hmm, that was a bonkers reason for doing so.SandyRentool said:
Some of us did vote Leave for the added benefit of getting rid of Cameron. 'Let's wipe the smile off their faces', remember?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
I suppose there could be an interesting spiral here; May is perceived to handled social care badly so her leadership ratings fall so people question her approach to Brexit and her ratings fall further. This is the potential problem with 'selling' TMay rather than the party.surbiton said:
I would like to see the ratings next week.Sunil_Prasannan said:
This is borne out by the leadership ratings, no doubt?bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0 -
I support this policy, but it has clearly gone down like a turd in a swimming pool.
It is particularly poorly timed to dominate the campaign at the exact time postal votes (mostly elderly) are returned.
It does not bode well for Brexit negotiations, when she has home truths to sell to the British public, and if she backtracks then the untrustworthy meme dominates the news.
Simply inept, and tbe principal reason is that she is so certain of her rectitude that she does not listen to others.
Hubris followed by Nemesis.0 -
The large amount of terminally stupid Labour and Lib Dem voters?TudorRose said:
I don't know which definition of 'honourable' extends to 'deliberately lying'. He could always have maintained a 'diplomatic silence'. Besides, if only the 'terminally stupid' didn't know he would resign then what was the point of lying...?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
My father said on the phone he is not voting because of it.He is a conservative and when he worked was a house builder.As a child we moved house each year to avoid capital gains tax as it was our residence.I wonder if it will effect turnout for some.williamglenn said:
People are completely irrational about the equity in their houses. It's possibly an even bigger national psychosis than the idea that leaving the EU is a good idea.The_Apocalypse said:
Yep, that's exactly how my parents see it. My mum was calling it a 'con', and saying that it gave people no motivation to work hard and save.chestnut said:The problem with this care proposal is that it is being perceived as inheritance tax.
0 -
If a serial waste of space and anti-democrat like Clarke was against him that is another excellent reason to be in favour of Gove.williamglenn said:
Gove would have been a disaster. He an even more worse example of the dangers of the journalist-politician than Boris Johnson. Ken Clarke's assessment of him in the clip where he called May a 'bloody difficult woman' was absolutely devastating.The_Apocalypse said:
Gove is a walking ideologue and yet another one who worships Blair.TheScreamingEagles said:
Gove would have been fine as PM.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
I think if he had made the final two, I probably would have voted for him (Sorry JohnO)0 -
Would they be "Deplorables"?midwinter said:
The large amount of terminally stupid Labour and Lib Dem voters?TudorRose said:
I don't know which definition of 'honourable' extends to 'deliberately lying'. He could always have maintained a 'diplomatic silence'. Besides, if only the 'terminally stupid' didn't know he would resign then what was the point of lying...?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's an honourable man, he knew if he lost the referendum, he should quit.TudorRose said:
And after he explicitly promised that he wouldn't.Richard_Tyndall said:
And yet she is on course to get a far bigger majority than Cameron ever achieved. The man who so politically inept he managed to force himself into a position where he had to resign entirely because of his own failings.TheScreamingEagles said:
I've been pointing this out since last July.murali_s said:Will the PB Tories finally admit that TMay is crap? She is politically hapless, dull, wooden and very uninspiring. David Cameron is in a different league to her.
Only the terminally stupid don't realise if he had said 'I'll quit if I lose the referendum' it might have encouraged non Tories to vote Leave to topple Cameron.
Cf the Indyref.0 -
Crabbe FFS he's awful even as a constituency MP.bobajobPB said:
The Crabb might have been marginally better in what was, admittedly, a woefully talentless field.The_Apocalypse said:
She was still better than her opponents though. Leadsome, Gove, Boris, Crabb, and Fox were all terrible candidates for the Conservative leadership/Prime Minster.bobajobPB said:It is now clear that May is useless. Even Corbyn looks good compared to her. He must be thanking his lucky stars.
0
