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  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,468
    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,541
    Finally got a chance to listen to the podcast. Thanks, as ever!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411
    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    He's got a ~ 14k majority over the realistic challenger though. Same pop as people going on about 7 Labour gains in Scotland.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,497

    ydoethur said:

    Corbyn is just a gift to the Tories and Sir Lynton.

    How many jobs would this cost?

    https://twitter.com/stephenkb/status/862355961020899328

    An interesting reversal of a very fine speech, one of the great speeches of the late 20th century indeed.

    Kinnock accused Liverpool Labour/Militant of starting with promises you cannot keep, pickling them into a rigid dogma and ending in grotesque chaos.

    Corbyn started with grotesque chaos, has pickled that into a rigid dogma and is now providing policies he cannot keep.
    Sorry but this is one policy promise he can and should keep. Selling arms to the country that is doing more to destabilise the Middle East than any other is just fecking stupid. It costs us vast sums in the long run and makes the world a far less safe place.
    Yes, but he won't for two reasons:

    1) He's not going to win power;

    2) He's not, in the vanishingly unlikely event the national electorate has a collective brain fade and he gets into power, going to lay off hundreds of workers merely because they happen to making their livelihoods by selling arms to the Saudis to kill lots of people in Yemen. Why do you think he's soft-pedalling his opposition to Trident?

    I would add there's a certain irony in Corbyn being concerned about the Yemenis when he hasn't always been so concerned to avoid those causing bloodshed in the Middle East...
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    The Greens are not standing in Southport which might help the Yellows. There was a 'Southport Party' as well in 2015 - they got a respectable 992 votes.

    http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-news/southport-greens-drop-out-general-13016815
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411
    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Trumpton

    The extent of the legal (not Congressional) investigations into Trump personally are becoming clear. A huge amount of effort is being put in to following money.

    No denying Donald's decisiveness, Comey made it known to the White House that he'd have to be fired as he wasn't going to drop the many many lines of investigation. And there are so many lines its potentially like whack-a-mole from Trump.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,442
    Unlike TSE I think the SNP will retain most of their seats. What's the best over/under line? I made a slight mistake with the Tory one before.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Its just down to better media training.

    Clegg knows what needs to be said when asked if it's okay to stick objects up another gentleman's bottom.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,249
    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    I agree. I disagree with him on a lot of things but he is an intelligent, articulate voice who was a competent deputy PM whilst Farron is an irritating wee naff who has never done anything useful.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    The Greens are not standing in Southport which might help the Yellows. There was a 'Southport Party' as well in 2015 - they got a respectable 992 votes.

    http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-news/southport-greens-drop-out-general-13016815
    Southport Maj over Tories 1,322; Hallam 14000 !
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,468
    edited May 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    So you seem to have responded twice. Fanboy!

    I don't disagree for a moment with your thoughts.

    PS I may possibly have used 'fanboy' incorrectly. I make no apologies.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367
    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,541

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
    Just how many extra bottles of champers am I going to have to have on standby? :p
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,469
    So now the charges are in, will there be court cases before the election or is there a risk of sitting MP being convicted?
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,541
    maaarsh said:

    So now the charges are in, will there be court cases before the election or is there a risk of sitting MP being convicted?

    Juncker might say you are living in another galaxy... :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
    Just how many extra bottles of champers am I going to have to have on standby? :p
    Like 18 Tory seats in Scotland, it is most unlikely.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,541

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    Na, we know Bootle will stay red.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    DavidL said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    I agree. I disagree with him on a lot of things but he is an intelligent, articulate voice who was a competent deputy PM whilst Farron is an irritating wee naff who has never done anything useful.
    Had a discussion about this with some acquaintances the other day - neither really liked Farron but had trouble articulating what about him they found hard to warm too, why Clegg was seen as just more impressive in general.

    I feel for Clegg - while many will have thought it just the LDs got hammered under his leadership, it does feel like the voters were unduly harsh, and it looks like it has as much chance of getting worse now as better, and yet even though he is the best of the bunch, his history as leader means he cannot take them forward.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited May 2017
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    Na, we know Bootle will stay red.

    Probably...

  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046

    Unlike TSE I think the SNP will retain most of their seats. What's the best over/under line? I made a slight mistake with the Tory one before.

    Hills 45.5 5/6
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    That may be so, but you constantly talk up LD chances, and fact is they have underperformed plenty of times, so everyone gets things wrong. Tories are getting overexcited - and it is worth remembering they would have been happy with 60 ish majority when things started, and 5 SCON seats - and may be in for a fall, but ramping is not a uniquely Tory trait. Given my own history of overestimating Lab and LD, and underestimating CON, I'm resolved to try to do less of all three.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,469
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    I agree. I disagree with him on a lot of things but he is an intelligent, articulate voice who was a competent deputy PM whilst Farron is an irritating wee naff who has never done anything useful.
    Had a discussion about this with some acquaintances the other day - neither really liked Farron but had trouble articulating what about him they found hard to warm too, why Clegg was seen as just more impressive in general.

    I feel for Clegg - while many will have thought it just the LDs got hammered under his leadership, it does feel like the voters were unduly harsh, and it looks like it has as much chance of getting worse now as better, and yet even though he is the best of the bunch, his history as leader means he cannot take them forward.
    Clegg was polished, but I never saw much evidence he was anywhere near as bright as he thought he was - in general he was lucky to get an excellent education and probably went further and achieved more than his pure ability would have justified from the off.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    I had been predicting SNP over 50 - still likely?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,475
    I strongly suspect no lady has been or ever will be at risk.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    Na, we know Bootle will stay red.
    With a mere 28000 majority? Child's play.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited May 2017
    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
    The local elections showed the Conservatives polling no better than in the 2015GE , they will add 3-4% to that on past history , the Lib Dems polled 7-8% higher than in the GE , that is likely to be 3-4% lower . Despite all the forecasts of Labour meltdown it did not happen . Carry on believing the polls if you want .
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,726

    Unlike TSE I think the SNP will retain most of their seats. What's the best over/under line? I made a slight mistake with the Tory one before.

    I can't see the SNP holding under 40.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411
    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited May 2017
    O/T Are opinion polls factoring in likelihood to vote - how do they do this? Is it agegroup specific?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411
    Well if Clegg does go then I reckon my Tory maj 300+ bet will have won. He must be seat 500+ or so in the true ordered list to drop
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,249
    calum said:

    Unlike TSE I think the SNP will retain most of their seats. What's the best over/under line? I made a slight mistake with the Tory one before.

    Hills 45.5 5/6
    That's quite well judged. I am not sure if I would be a buyer or a seller at that price. My natural pessimism says buy.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    Pulpstar said:

    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
    To be honest, I would gladly give this seat to the Tories to defeat Clegg. He is one of the two people that have killed progressive politics in this country.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited May 2017
    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367
    nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    Lots are drawn then.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,468
    nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    It seems straws. There was a local by-election decided as such.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    edited May 2017
    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
    To be honest, I would gladly give this seat to the Tories to defeat Clegg. He is one of the two people that have killed progressive politics in this country.
    I don't know what 'progressive politics' means. It seems to get used a lot by quite extreme parties sometimes to argue they are somehow more palatable to a centrist leaning voter than a moderate candidate of the centre left or, gasp, centre right.

    Is it solely a calculation based on social policies? Anti-austerity?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,871
    edited May 2017

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,138
    maaarsh said:

    So now the charges are in, will there be court cases before the election or is there a risk of sitting MP being convicted?

    Where have you been all day?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,411
    Sheffield Hallam is seat 536 for the Tories

    That's based on a projection of


    CON 398
    LAB 167
    L DEM 7
    UKIP 0
    GREEN 1
    SNP 54
    PLAID 4
    OTHER 1
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    Battle Royal.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,138

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    Oh the irony.
  • I missed that - gut feel or real evidence?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2017
    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,526
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    In a similar way, are you going to let a rebuke from a long dead French statesman cloud your judgement forever more about our national interest? That's insanity.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    AndyJS said:

    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.

    It would appear that despite everything Lab just aren't really down by that much, and its more a case of the Tories rising?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,726
    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    De Gaulle was doing us a favour, if only we'd had eyes to see it.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,138
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    Delusion has set in amongst Conservative posters on here . They think they are going to overturn any seat whatever the majority .
    That may be so, but you constantly talk up LD chances, and fact is they have underperformed plenty of times, so everyone gets things wrong. Tories are getting overexcited - and it is worth remembering they would have been happy with 60 ish majority when things started, and 5 SCON seats - and may be in for a fall, but ramping is not a uniquely Tory trait. Given my own history of overestimating Lab and LD, and underestimating CON, I'm resolved to try to do less of all three.
    I said on day 1 a 50 + seat majority would be fine. Anything which keeps Corbyn as Lab leader is fine by me. I now expect a bigger majority but would be content at 60+ and thrilled if the Scons get 4/5.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    kle4 said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
    To be honest, I would gladly give this seat to the Tories to defeat Clegg. He is one of the two people that have killed progressive politics in this country.
    I don't know what 'progressive politics' means.
    "Not the Evil Tories".
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
    Indeed that makes sense. The Tories fell considerably in Hallam didn't they which indicates they tactically went to save their ally from the reds?

    Will the reds this time return the favour and vote tactically to save Clegg from the Tories? I'm not convinced.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,871
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    De Gaulle was doing us a favour, if only we'd had eyes to see it.
    Yes he recognised we were on the periphery of Europe along with Scandinavia, Russia and Turkey, never at its heart
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,232
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.

    It would appear that despite everything Lab just aren't really down by that much, and its more a case of the Tories rising?
    It's the leadership ratings that appear to be telling a different story. They certainly point in the direction of big Labour losses. I also feel the Tories are saving up their anti-Corbyn ammo for the mother of all salvos in the last week.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,138
    Scott_P said:
    And Corbyn would do the same here backed up by Farron and Lucas.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,871

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    In a similar way, are you going to let a rebuke from a long dead French statesman cloud your judgement forever more about our national interest? That's insanity.
    In retrospect Dr Gaulle was right, we should have stayed in EFTA and not bothered with the EEC
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:
    I am immensely dispirited at attitudes that condemn coalitions even at local levels between parties that nationally are bitter enemies. There will be issues parties will disagree on locally, but working together for the good of the local community should be a lot easier than doing so nationally, and no side should rule it out or condemn it in opponents when it happens, that's putting national politics above local concerns.

    I want unionist parties, all of them, to make gains from the SNP at Westminster, and I'd prefer, as a unionist, a lot of unionist cllrs, but if the numbers stack up the way they do sometimes, dealing with the SNP might be a necessary thing. Is it there? Perhaps not, but the mere fact of it is not betrayal worthy surely?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,138

    Pulpstar said:

    Omnium said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Someone give me the switch model that sees Clegg in trouble ?!

    I don't buy it, however I do think Lamb & Brake & Southport are in serious trouble.

    It's the LDs under a different leader. I know people generally disagree, but Clegg is a substantial politician. The LD's, just at the moment, don't exist beyond him. Clegg can (and perhaps will) lose his seat because he isn't at the helm. Equally Farron might (just might) lose his seat because Clegg isn't the leader.

    Yes yes I get all that but why is Clegg going to uniquely lose a 14,000 majority over the Tories.

    I'm not even backing generally against Labour no hopers with that much of a margin.
    It was said 3,000 Tories voted tactically for Clegg last time.

    That 14k majority becomes an 8k majority.

    The Tories are generally polling 10% above what they polled in 2015 if the polls are to be believed whilst the Lib Dems are still stuck in that rut.
    Indeed that makes sense. The Tories fell considerably in Hallam didn't they which indicates they tactically went to save their ally from the reds?

    Will the reds this time return the favour and vote tactically to save Clegg from the Tories? I'm not convinced.
    I actually think there's a good chance Labour could win this one.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 317
    Is anyone offering odds on Simon Danzcuk winning Rochdale?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
    To be honest, I would gladly give this seat to the Tories to defeat Clegg. He is one of the two people that have killed progressive politics in this country.
    Who was the other?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367
    I've not had it officially confirmed, but I do expect a YouGov poll out tonight.
  • nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    Lots are drawn then.
    That could be a lot of fun
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    AndyJS said:

    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.

    It looks as though they will do a bit better in the South, collecting Greens and it appears some Lib Dems, and maybe that is offsetting the losses elsewhere in the overall number.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,726

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    In a similar way, are you going to let a rebuke from a long dead French statesman cloud your judgement forever more about our national interest? That's insanity.
    De Gaulle was right.
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Scott_P said:
    Giggle. Timeline of frothing yoon zoomers is pleasing.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367
    franklyn said:

    Is anyone offering odds on Simon Danzcuk winning Rochdale?

    Shadsy is offering 3/1
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367

    nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    Lots are drawn then.
    That could be a lot of fun
    I hope you haven't taken off your coat.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,726
    Ishmael_Z said:

    murali_s said:

    Pulpstar said:

    murali_s said:

    Y0kel said:

    You know, it'd be a pity for the LDs to lose Clegg. He would probably do better than Farron with the public if he ever had another shot at leading.

    Clegg losing could be one of the few highlights of election night. Please, pretty please, let it happen.
    So he can be replaced by some Tory no mark ?

    It's an odd thing to wish for, particularly from a poster I consider on the left.
    To be honest, I would gladly give this seat to the Tories to defeat Clegg. He is one of the two people that have killed progressive politics in this country.
    Who was the other?
    I wish it was me, but that honour must go to someone like Dominic Cummings or Nigel Farage.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,475
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:
    ReynardTheFox.
    That's one of the roasters who's said he's going to take up arms in a civil war, isn't it?

    Yoons, eh? What are they* like.

    *you
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,249
    kle4 said:

    I had been predicting SNP over 50 - still likely?

    No.
  • nunu said:

    I wonder if anyone knows the answer to this mos unlikely scenario. Say if not a single person casts a vote, literally not a single one anywhere including the candidates themselves. Who would be our MP's? Does any one know the answer to this constitutional problem?

    Lots are drawn then.
    That could be a lot of fun
    I hope you haven't taken off your coat.
    If there were zero votes cast, then all the odd ball candidates would be in with a shout.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150
    I am presuming crick had a meltdown on ch4 news.
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569

    Scott_P said:
    ReynardTheFox.
    That's one of the roasters who's said he's going to take up arms in a civil war, isn't it?

    Yoons, eh? What are they* like.

    *you
    State of him, an auld granny would knock him down with her message bag.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    Catching up on some local results, I see Lab had a bloodbath in Durham, plummeting 20 seats...to 74 out of 126.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150
    Charming lot....

    Veteran jeered at corbyn rally

    https://order-order.com/2017/05/10/267197/
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,526
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    In a similar way, are you going to let a rebuke from a long dead French statesman cloud your judgement forever more about our national interest? That's insanity.
    De Gaulle was right.
    De Gaulle wasn't any more right than Anthony Eden. It's preposterous sycophancy to imagine that the definitive view on Britain's role in Europe was given by Charles De Gaulle.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    OUT said:

    an auld granny would knock him down with her message bag.

    Why are the Zoomers so addicted to violent metaphors?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150
    edited May 2017
    No problem with antisemetism in the labour party, they had an investigation and everything...

    The Corbynista co-chair of Manchester Labour Students has been forced to resign after it was revealed he claimed “Hitler was Jewish” and compared Israel to ISIS. Tayyib Nawaz, a psychology student at Manchester Metropolitan University, posted a series of tweets last year which are remarkably grim even by the standards of recent Labour anti-Semitism scandals.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,475
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:

    OUT said:

    an auld granny would knock him down with her message bag.

    Why are the Zoomers so addicted to violent metaphors?
    Be like Yoons, dispense with metaphor entirely.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/yoonies15.jpg
  • PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    See Shadsy has Worsley and Eccles South as a toss up 5/6 Labour 5/6 Con (Cllr Lindley, a PBer)

    Surprised me. Any thoughts ?
  • franklyn said:

    Is anyone offering odds on Simon Danzcuk winning Rochdale?

    Shadsy is offering 3/1
    More mug punters' contributions towards his Christmas bonus.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Arsenal one up at Southampton. They could be one point off the Champions League places with two games to play by Saturday evening.
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569
    edited May 2017
    Scott_P said:

    OUT said:

    an auld granny would knock him down with her message bag.

    Why are the Zoomers so addicted to violent metaphors?
    <



    Aww sorry flower, never realised you were so delicate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 120,871

    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    chestnut said:

    Remain - overwhelmingly the left and the Blairite faction - really brought this upon themselves by constantly talking the country down and exaggerating the problems people faced.

    This gets to the heart of why I am so appalled at what is happening and dismayed by the way it is interpreted by many middle-of-the-road Tories. Too many people view Brexit in terms of a rebellion against the Blair years, and while he was responsible for a lot of mistakes, sabotaging the strategic position of the entire nation just to get your own back for having 'the right's nose rubbed in diversity' is sinking to their level of juvenile politics.

    The EU, and our relationship with it, is more important than that and anyone who thinks they've got one over on 'the left' needs to wake up, and remind themselves why it was the Conservatives who always understood that this country needs to be at the heart of Europe.
    When Macmillan tried to place Britain at the heart of Europe De Gaulle said a clear 'non', which I think set the tone for our future relationship with the EEC/EU
    In a similar way, are you going to let a rebuke from a long dead French statesman cloud your judgement forever more about our national interest? That's insanity.
    De Gaulle was right.
    De Gaulle wasn't any more right than Anthony Eden. It's preposterous sycophancy to imagine that the definitive view on Britain's role in Europe was given by Charles De Gaulle.
    Of the 6 original EEC members, France, West Germany, Italy, Luxembourg, Belgium and the Netherlands all are still in the EU and in the Eurozone too. Of the 7 original EFTA members Norway and Switzerland and the UK are not in the EU or leaving it, Sweden and Denmark are not in the Eurozone and only Austria and Portugal in the EU and Eurozone, Dr Gaulle recognised the future direction of Europe even in the 1960s
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2017
    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.

    It would appear that despite everything Lab just aren't really down by that much, and its more a case of the Tories rising?
    Possibly. But it would be strange if Labour are doing better in, say, the West Midlands than London. But they must be doing better in some of these regions in order for today's London poll and the national polls to make sense. I'm just not sure where it could be: not Wales or Scotland going by the latest polling.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    PaulM said:

    See Shadsy has Worsley and Eccles South as a toss up 5/6 Labour 5/6 Con (Cllr Lindley, a PBer)

    Surprised me. Any thoughts ?

    Worsley & Eccles South is no.69 on the Con target list, with a Labour majority of just over 14%. However, it also has a very high Ukip vote, and any seat where the 2015 Ukip vote exceeded the Labour majority has to be considered at least potentially in play.

    If we were to assign half of the 2015 Ukip vote to the Tories, then Labour would go into this election with a notional majority of 5%.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,526
    edited May 2017
    Deleted.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150
    AndyJS said:

    kle4 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The regional polling still isn't matching up with the national polling.

    Take the London poll today. Good for Labour, they're only down 2 points. But a lot of national polls have had Labour only down 1 point or on the same 31% they got at GE2015. Given that almost everyone accepts London is the best region for Labour these days, it's strange that their vote in London is down by more than overall with some of those recent polls. In other words, you'd think that down 2 points in London would equate to down 5 or 6 points overall.

    It would appear that despite everything Lab just aren't really down by that much, and its more a case of the Tories rising?
    Possibly. But it would be strange if Labour are doing better in, say, the West Midlands than London. But they must be doing better in some of these regions in order for today's London poll and the national polls to make sense. I'm just not sure where it could be: not Wales or Scotland going by the latest polling.
    Or perhaps we aren't heading for polling disaster inquiry mark II.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,729
    OT. This must be the weakest shadow cabinet in living memory. Every spokesperson makes you cringe. I'm not sure they were brains of Britain before the mass resignations but since they've become a horror show.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    Editors have fun picking photos for stories, don't they?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150

    //twitter.com/Telegraph/status/862398918969233409

    It's Fucking batshit insane....
  • OUTOUT Posts: 569
    Roger said:

    OT. This must be the weakest shadow cabinet in living memory. Every spokesperson makes you cringe. I'm not sure they were brains of Britain before the mass resignations but since they've become a horror show.

    They're missing the Scottish mafia.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 94,914
    The Labour leader will only send the armed forces into combat if "all other options have been exhausted", the copy of the manifesto states.

    I'm sure everyone usually says that - they just disagree when options have been exhausted.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,367

    franklyn said:

    Is anyone offering odds on Simon Danzcuk winning Rochdale?

    Shadsy is offering 3/1
    More mug punters' contributions towards his Christmas bonus.
    I'm not touching the Rochdale market with a 50 ft barge pole.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    kle4 said:

    Editors have fun picking photos for stories, don't they?
    'A Labour source warned it is "Ed Miliband's manifesto with hard left hundreds and thousands sprinkled on top".' :D
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 80,150
    kle4 said:

    The Labour leader will only send the armed forces into combat if "all other options have been exhausted", the copy of the manifesto states.

    I'm sure everyone usually says that - they just disagree when options have been exhausted.

    I think Jezza might just be asked when enough is enough...and he will wibble.
This discussion has been closed.